00:00:03 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 00:39:42 jmb has joined #html-wg 00:42:26 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 01:15:25 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 01:46:56 mjs has joined #html-wg 02:08:55 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 02:16:25 polin8 has joined #html-wg 02:24:24 Preston has joined #html-wg 02:55:06 heycam has joined #html-wg 03:22:40 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 03:35:39 Hixie, I just discovered that you made _blank a conforming value for taget! Why? 03:36:05 btw, you should also document _new 03:36:58 I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well 03:43:28 mjs has joined #html-wg 03:54:20 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 04:47:29 heycam has joined #html-wg 04:47:31 karl has joined #html-wg 05:11:02 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 05:12:59 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 05:40:50 gavin has joined #html-wg 05:42:01 Deeder has joined #html-wg 05:42:55 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 05:45:39 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 05:55:26 foca has joined #html-wg 06:02:27 Lachy: is _new actually a magic value, or does it "just work" the way "foo" does? 06:02:34 foca has left #html-wg 06:03:52 in what browser? 06:05:26 05:36 < Lachy>|btw, you should also document _new 06:05:26 05:36 < Lachy>|I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well 06:05:56 I'm pretty sure it's a magic value 06:06:04 Lachy: regarding your other question, i didn't really think about what should be conforming, but now that i do, i could see legitimate use cases for _blank 06:06:11 but i need to go home now 06:06:16 feel free to mention it on the list 06:06:25 ok, I'll do some tests and mail the results 06:06:43 foca has joined #html-wg 06:07:21 _new is not magic in Safari but it appears to be in Firefox 06:07:41 really? i though i based the spec on the values i got out of firefox's code :-) 06:07:46 (same behavior as _blank afaik) 06:07:51 (afaict I mean) 06:08:18 (for window.open at least) 06:08:42 back tomorrow, bed time now 06:08:43 nn 06:09:16 doesn't appear to be magic in IE7 06:12:52 not magic in IE6 either. 06:21:31 loic has joined #html-wg 06:31:16 foca has left #html-wg 06:37:16 Deeder has joined #html-wg 06:38:36 do did everyone note that TimBL wants to join our telecon? 06:42:58 anne5 has joined #html-wg 06:44:34 telecon is via irc? now? 06:45:13 timbl and tag have been discussing xml versioning in last meeting, if it helps 06:49:45 no, tomorrow 06:50:21 no today ;) (in Japan) 06:50:38 thanks 06:52:00 in Europe it's today as well iirc 06:53:04 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 06:53:29 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/04/23-minutes.html <--if anyone wishes to see 07:06:45 dbaron has joined #html-wg 07:12:43 tH has joined #html-wg 07:26:43 neither me, if it helps 07:27:33 futhermore, to be honest, i thought versioning in xml was solved long ago. or at least, it should, since it makes sense to consider the problem even before sitting to write down the first xml draft 07:28:21 i think they mean versioning of xml languages 07:28:28 not the xml syntax 07:28:36 right. 07:28:50 which is the perfect example of a bad versioning story... 07:34:40 DanC: "(in what timezone?)" on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 => CET 07:36:49 Zeros has joined #html-wg 07:41:11 edas has joined #html-wg 07:53:08 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 08:07:27 Julian has joined #html-wg 08:22:58 mjs has joined #html-wg 08:32:13 mjs has joined #html-wg 08:46:56 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 09:03:47 zdenko has joined #html-wg 09:23:53 polin8 has joined #html-wg 10:00:09 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 10:19:43 heycam has joined #html-wg 10:46:47 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 10:50:28 karl has joined #html-wg 10:55:59 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 11:27:38 schepers_ has joined #html-wg 11:52:48 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 12:07:21 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 12:21:03 icaaq has joined #html-wg 12:38:35 mraymond has joined #html-wg 12:39:30 Wow people are here early! 12:39:50 you must think the world is flat? 12:39:55 mraymond, people hang out here all the time 12:40:05 some people are here 24/7 12:40:12 Yeah, silly them 12:40:22 some people don't have a life beyond IRC 12:40:44 Yeah, silly you 12:40:45 ;) 12:40:48 Or just use screen+irssi..(c; 12:42:01 Is there a way to listen to the teleconference via Internet so you don't have to be on the phone long distance? 12:42:33 you could try getting skype 12:43:03 the minutes of the meeting will be done here on IRC so you can "participate" without dialing in 12:43:21 Bob_le_Pointu has joined #html-wg 12:43:57 unfortunately, IRC minutes aren't easy to follow 12:44:29 depends on the minute taker 12:45:02 Is there an expected length of time for the meeting? 12:45:21 90min prolly 12:45:26 woah! 12:45:36 Sounds about right. 12:46:09 Australia? 12:46:12 yes 12:46:13 Lachy, that's the typical length of a telcon... although groups can decide to have shorter or longer telcons 12:46:32 I like the 16 min telcon for WAF 2 weeks ago 12:46:45 pasquale has joined #html-wg 12:47:00 yes, those are good 12:47:37 I wonder how many people are actually going to call 12:47:46 20-40 12:47:54 per the response 12:48:00 s 12:48:17 hmm. That might not be too bad, though it's a lot 12:49:01 Question to all: Who would be your nightmare editor? 12:49:24 anyone from the XHTML2/XForms WGs 12:50:07 someone who doesn't do much 12:50:21 doesn't listen to feedback from the WG, other people, etc. 12:51:03 mraymond, why? 12:51:28 mraymond is matthew raymond? 12:51:29 Just wondering if people were thinking the same thing as me, which is apparently so. 12:51:40 Yeah, I'm Matthew Raymond. 12:51:47 welcome 12:51:54 /whois didn't tell 12:52:04 I just installed ChatZilla. 12:52:09 I'm at work. 12:52:23 icaaq has left #html-wg 12:52:31 fair enough 12:55:25 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 13:00:27 MattRaymond, you might also want to join #whatwg on irc.freenode.net 13:01:37 Not a huge fan of multiuser chat. I'm a slow reader. 13:02:17 And a barely adequate typist. 13:03:29 Although compared to other chats I've been in, this is positively glacial. Don't expect it to be like that when the meeting starts, though. 13:03:40 MattRaymond, I'm a slow reader too, but it's not that hard to keep up with multiple channels 13:03:50 Most people only talk in one of the channels at a time too 13:04:16 except for crazy people like anne5 who can maintain conversations in 3 channles at once :-) 13:07:52 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 13:16:20 Thought: Use HTML5 as basis for the next spec, but use HTML 4.01 as basis for Authors' Guide? 13:16:52 authors' guide? 13:16:58 The structure/style of HTML 4.01, or the actual text? 13:21:21 Lachy has left #html-wg 13:22:22 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 13:25:15 Lachy has joined #html-wg 13:26:35 polin8 has joined #html-wg 13:36:53 loic has joined #html-wg 14:06:22 Deeder has joined #html-wg 14:14:04 I just added meta-topics such as handling duplicates to http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists ; all are invited to polish further 14:14:16 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 14:14:37 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 14:14:44 hey DanC 14:15:21 is the versioning issue on the agenda for the telcon? 14:16:10 no. not explicitly, anyway. I don't see a productive way to deal with it by phone 14:16:18 ok 14:16:37 Chris and I have been discussing it off list and seem to be getting somewhere 14:16:48 getting somewhere is good. :) 14:17:32 I'm still awaiting his full response, but his quick response today indicates that he likes my latest compromise (though what he wrote was a little ambiguous) 14:17:38 hasather has joined #html-wg 14:18:36 are you guys copying www-archive on your offlist discussion? If not, I can't be completely friendly about it. 14:19:21 to some extent, I trust that you understand the risks of offlist discussion, but I feel I should say so in any case. 14:20:57 Sander has joined #html-wg 14:25:40 we're not, but I have a copy of everything if you would like to me send it (if I get his permission to) 14:25:59 I'm planning to summarise the discussion and post the result to public-html anyway 14:30:08 what are the risks of off-list discussion that you're referring to? 14:30:56 you might be getting nowhere 14:31:32 that's possible 14:31:53 I'm referring to the risk of "why didn't you include the rest of us" back-lash. 14:32:46 and the risk of "why does Chris Wilson answer Lachy's mail but not mine?" 14:32:47 that doesn't bother me 14:33:13 Because Lachy is so friendly to cwilso :) 14:33:23 yep :-) 14:35:27 actually, off-list discussion has probably been advantageous in this case cause it prevents productive discussion being flooded with dozens of +1s 14:35:50 +1 14:36:00 ;p 14:37:15 Lachy, www-archive doesn't have that effect 14:38:08 The whole +1 situation had gotten out of hand. 14:38:43 Ashe has joined #html-wg 14:39:16 Sorry for my +1, it was just to test the list. 14:40:33 Bob_le_Pointu, weren't the hundreds of daily emails sufficient evidence that the list was working? 14:40:52 doesn't tell you if posting does 14:41:09 Until karl and I tested with that, my mails we'rent posted. 14:41:11 we're at a nice 1500 for this month btw 14:41:19 you don't need to know that till you have something important to say, and you find out pretty quickly then if it doesn't 14:42:34 I disagree, I had something to say, but I could'nt send. Waiting for the problem was solved, the topic was nearly closed and my message became useles. 14:42:41 Now, it's fixed at last. 14:44:44 best way is to e-mail www-archive 14:44:51 with something like "test" 14:46:15 Julian has joined #html-wg 14:46:27 I did anne5, like you suggested me to do, I received an form to fill, and no more. 14:47:56 oh right 14:48:03 well, that should've worked 14:53:13 jdandrea has joined #html-wg 14:55:54 oedipus has joined #html-wg 15:04:23 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 15:08:41 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 15:15:28 DanC: yeah, I'm waiting for top posting to come up 15:17:43 it leads to all sorts of distracting meta discussion every time! 15:17:47 gavin: well, we seem to discuss everything, so it will 15:29:54 h3h has joined #html-wg 15:32:17 oedipus has joined #html-wg 15:36:38 oedipus has joined #html-wg 15:38:55 mjs has joined #html-wg 15:54:45 I wonder if it matters which telecon number I dial with Skype 15:55:40 Alfonso has joined #html-wg 15:56:38 it's in 5 minutes isn't it 15:56:52 in 1:03 15:56:58 *exciting* 15:57:13 was the orientation t-45? 15:57:30 yes, although it can begin now if you have any questions 15:58:30 Ow. 15:58:34 I'll miss that. 15:58:37 how do people request a timeslot to speak in? and how are permissions to speak given? 15:58:47 on IRC or on the phone? 15:59:09 type /me q+ to add yourself to the queue 15:59:42 Is there a dedicated IRC channel ? 15:59:51 there were links to Zakim instructions in an email from DanC 15:59:54 zakim (phone) options: 61# to mute yourself; 60# to unMute yourself 16:00:24 zakim (phone) part 2: 41# to raise your hand (enter speaking queue); 40# to lower your hand (exit speaking queue) 16:00:50 Zakim has joined #html-wg 16:00:54 Zakim, this is html 16:00:54 DanC, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html". 16:00:59 Zakim, this will be html 16:01:00 ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now 16:01:04 chaals has joined #html-wg 16:01:49 DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16#orient26 16:01:54 RRSAgent, pointer? 16:01:54 See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T16-01-54 16:02:07 DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16#orient26 log: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc 16:02:38 q+ to note the nice weather in KC 16:02:38 chaals, ! 16:02:56 agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z 16:03:03 agenda + Design Principles and Requirements 16:03:10 agenda + Forms baseline 16:03:18 agenda + HTML spec baseline 16:03:21 HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started 16:03:28 + +1.734.995.aaaa 16:03:34 +DanC 16:04:00 what's the phone number? 16:04:13 Zakim, phone number? 16:04:14 I am sorry, DanC; I do not know a number for number? 16:04:15 +Gregory_Rosmiata 16:04:31 Zakim, passcode? 16:04:31 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC 16:04:56 Zakim, aaaa is Patrick_Ion 16:04:59 +Patrick_Ion; got it 16:05:33 PatrickDFIon has joined #html-wg 16:06:00 Zakim, Patrick_Ion is PatrickDFIon 16:06:00 +PatrickDFIon; got it 16:06:32 gavin has joined #html-wg 16:07:29 GRDDL: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-grddl-20070302/ 16:07:55 MikeSmith - this is the orientation portion of the telecon 16:08:11 +??P17 16:08:13 +??P18 16:08:18 Gregory - thxs 16:08:32 zakim, who is talking? 16:08:42 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (40%), ??P18 (84%) 16:09:03 ack danc 16:09:03 DanC, you wanted to note the nice weather in KC 16:09:05 Zakim, ??P17 is Lachlan Hunt 16:09:05 I don't understand '??P17 is Lachlan Hunt', Lachy 16:09:09 +??P19 16:09:13 zakim, ??P18 is me 16:09:13 +chaals; got it 16:09:18 Zakim, +??P17 is Lachy 16:09:18 sorry, Lachy, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17' 16:09:24 Zakim, ??P17 is Lachy 16:09:24 +Lachy; got it 16:09:33 What a hassle to note the nice weather in KC.. 16:09:44 I just joined 16:09:51 no caller id :-( 16:10:08 zakim, who is talking? 16:10:19 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (78%), ??P19 (20%) 16:10:21 Zakim, mute chaals temporarily 16:10:21 chaals should now be muted 16:10:26 + +1.949.588.aabb 16:10:34 + +1.908.781.aacc 16:10:37 chaals should now be unmuted again 16:10:39 Zakim, who is here? 16:10:39 On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, ??P19, +1.949.588.aabb, +1.908.781.aacc 16:10:41 On IRC I see gavin, PatrickDFIon, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, mjs, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Julian, Ashe, Sander, hasather, gavin_, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, 16:10:45 ... zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, MikeSmith, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, 16:10:47 ... gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent 16:10:54 Zakim, ??P19 in hsivonen 16:10:54 I don't understand '??P19 in hsivonen', DanC 16:11:00 Zakim, P19 in hsivonen 16:11:00 I don't understand 'P19 in hsivonen', DanC 16:11:03 Zakim, 19 is hsivonen 16:11:03 sorry, anne5, I do not recognize a party named '19' 16:11:05 Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen 16:11:05 +hsivonen; got it 16:11:07 zakim, who is talking? 16:11:13 good morning 16:11:17 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (54%), hsivonen (15%) 16:11:18 is this the pre-session? 16:11:23 yes, mjs 16:11:31 Zakim, aabb is Preston 16:11:31 +Preston; got it 16:11:36 mjs, starts in 50min 16:11:37 zakim, mute me 16:11:37 chaals should now be muted 16:11:42 - +1.908.781.aacc 16:13:18 ooh, steven brust fan! 16:13:23 dbaron has joined #html-wg 16:13:40 no chance for an audio feed of the call? :) 16:14:40 h3h, no, not today. you might ask in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-tools/ 16:14:47 about doing that in the future 16:14:55 it's complicated, both technically and socially. 16:15:26 + +1.724.738.aadd 16:15:28 does the telecon bridge have a vox that mutes the sound when no one is talking or am I losing packets? 16:16:01 it auto-mutes, yes 16:16:18 Zakim, aadd is David_D 16:16:18 +David_D; got it 16:16:41 yes... rather: Zakim, I am Lachy 16:16:45 Zakim, I am Lachy 16:16:45 ok, Lachy, I now associate you with Lachy 16:16:56 johnst has joined #html-wg 16:17:06 ack ??P18 16:17:53 What exactly is the speaker queue? I got the start time for the meeting wrong. 16:18:08 q? 16:18:14 ack MattRaymond 16:18:17 ack me 16:18:27 Zakim, is MattRaymond here? 16:18:27 DanC, I do not see MattRaymond anywhere 16:18:40 hard to explain by IRC, MattRaymond 16:18:55 the speaker queue is the list of speakers who wish to speak (41# to raise hand; 40# to put hand down (exit queue) 16:18:56 If you type q+ you will be put in the speaker queue 16:18:57 Zakim, mute me 16:18:57 Lachy should now be muted 16:19:10 Oh, vocally, then. 16:19:18 (this is better than interrupting speakers to say "me too...") 16:19:36 the really cool thing is that Zakim will remember what you wanted to say... 16:19:40 You can also use "q+ to XYXYXYXYX" and zakim will remember what you wanted to say 16:19:46 q+ to say that HTML 12 should have a tag 16:19:52 q+ to say that maybe queuing up is a good idedea 16:19:57 then, 10 minutes later, when the chair acks me.... 16:19:58 ack danc 16:19:58 DanC, you wanted to say that HTML 12 should have a tag 16:20:03 q- 16:20:05 + +1.518.664.aaee 16:20:09 +1 to ! 16:20:37 ack chaals 16:20:42 maybe a <+1> element? 16:20:47 q+ testing 16:20:56 q- 16:20:58 should be trivial to make the parsing algorithm support that... 16:21:04 Neovov has joined #html-wg 16:21:07 q+ to say that you can put someone else on the queue 16:21:10 anne5, you know where the Zakim source is, yes? 16:21:30 Hi everybody ! 16:21:30 somewhere on http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ ? 16:21:34 ack me 16:21:34 chaals, you wanted to say that you can put someone else on the queue 16:21:37 or do you mean something else? 16:21:41 q+ 16:21:41 Who is the guy this the background noise? 16:21:49 Zakim, who is making noise? 16:21:54 q- testing 16:22:00 anne5, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (49%), hsivonen (15%) 16:22:00 zakim, mute me 16:22:02 chaals should now be muted 16:22:21 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 16:22:28 sierk has joined #html-wg 16:22:35 zakim, agenda? 16:22:35 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:22:36 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z [from DanC] 16:22:37 2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC] 16:22:39 3. Forms baseline [from DanC] 16:22:40 4. HTML spec baseline [from DanC] 16:22:54 Yep. Collision detection does not work so well on overloaded channels (as this case). 16:23:22 + +24053aaff 16:23:23 edas has joined #html-wg 16:23:34 ack me 16:24:07 unmute me 16:24:08 olli- has joined #html-wg 16:24:34 Zakim, unmute me 16:24:34 DanC was not muted, DanC 16:25:02 zakim, mute me 16:25:02 chaals should now be muted 16:25:02 Zakim, unmute me 16:25:03 Lachy should no longer be muted 16:25:21 I think the cgi client is cited from http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat 16:26:18 Zakim, aaff is Debi_Orton 16:26:18 +Debi_Orton; got it 16:26:45 mjs has joined #html-wg 16:27:17 Wii! 16:28:52 Patrick has joined #html-wg 16:30:41 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 16:31:22 zakim, mute me 16:31:22 Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted 16:31:33 q+ to say you should use Opera for IRC :) 16:31:58 hasather has left #html-wg 16:32:06 zakim, who is here? 16:32:06 On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, +1.518.664.aaee, Debi_Orton 16:32:09 On IRC I see MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, olli-, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, dbaron, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, 16:32:13 ... Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, 16:32:16 ... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent 16:32:26 mikkhonk has joined #html-wg 16:32:32 zakim Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita 16:32:53 let's not do "who is here?" too often 16:33:36 http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html works 16:34:08 zakim, who is talking 16:34:08 I don't understand 'who is talking', Lachy 16:34:21 zakim, who is talking? 16:34:30 glazou has joined #html-wg 16:34:30 lachy speaking is Debbie Orton 16:34:34 Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.518.664.aaee (11%) 16:34:35 good evening 16:34:46 hasather has joined #html-wg 16:34:48 hi glazou 16:34:53 the conf call has already started ? 16:35:01 aaaah 16:35:08 Zakim, aaee is Debi_Orton 16:35:08 +Debi_Orton; got it 16:35:24 starting in 25mns right ? 16:35:27 yes 16:35:31 thx 16:35:42 we're using the bridge to do orientation now 16:35:56 mikko_honkala_ has joined #html-wg 16:36:21 mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg 16:36:25 I'm getting an error with Skype 16:36:51 ack me 16:36:52 chaals, you wanted to say you should use Opera for IRC :) 16:36:56 I can only wish you luck with skype. 16:37:40 MattRaymond: Skype is working for me assuming that the silent moments come from the Zakim vox and not from packet loss 16:38:49 olli- has left #html-wg 16:39:05 + +7.233.aagg 16:39:07 + +47.61.aahh 16:39:23 Debi has joined #html-wg 16:39:53 I'm getting error message 9502. 16:40:21 Zakim, aagg is glazou 16:40:21 +glazou; got it 16:40:29 Screw it, I'll use my cell. 16:40:37 The usability source is http://usability.gov. There is a PDF guide of the book available from http://www.usability.gov/pdfs/guidelines.html 16:40:45 good to know, Debi 16:40:48 welcome to IRC Debi 16:41:04 Hi! Which Skype contact name or number do I have to call, to participate via Skype? 16:41:12 DanC, If you don't already have a scribe, I'm willing to... 16:41:16 Zakim, what is the passcode? 16:41:16 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy 16:41:24 Thanx 16:41:44 zakim, unmute me 16:41:44 Gregory_Rosmiata should no longer be muted 16:41:51 [would be good, in the agenda, to put a link to the channel a la irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg for clients that can easily connect] 16:41:54 ack me 16:41:54 + +1.859.539.aaii 16:42:09 zakim, aaii is mattraymond 16:42:09 +mattraymond; got it 16:42:13 queue= 16:42:33 zakim, mute me 16:42:33 mattraymond should now be muted 16:42:38 zakim, who is here 16:42:38 chaals, you need to end that query with '?' 16:42:41 zakim, who is here? 16:42:41 On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton.a, Debi_Orton, glazou, +47.61.aahh, mattraymond (muted) 16:42:44 On IRC I see Debi, mikko_honkala, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, 16:42:50 ... Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, 16:42:52 ... martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent 16:42:56 heycam has joined #html-wg 16:43:12 henrik has joined #html-wg 16:43:47 41# 16:44:10 Zakim, Debi_Orton is Somebody 16:44:10 +Somebody; got it 16:44:23 Zakim, Debi_Orton.a is Debi_Orton 16:44:23 +Debi_Orton; got it 16:44:26 zakim, mute me 16:44:26 Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted 16:44:29 zakim, please mute me 16:44:29 chaals should now be muted 16:44:39 zakim, unmute me 16:44:39 mattraymond should no longer be muted 16:44:50 zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is really Gregory_Rosmaita 16:44:50 +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it 16:45:30 Shunsuke has joined #html-wg 16:46:09 Presumably a problem is a phone port is taken up by an unidentified. 16:46:34 Patrick, no - Zakim is buried in the phone system.... 16:46:55 zakim, mute me 16:46:55 mattraymond should now be muted 16:46:57 via phone, one can join the queue by pressing 41 followed by the # sign; to exit the queue, press 40 followed by the # sign 16:47:15 agenda+ using q+/q-/q= and q+ to (and the magic numbers) 16:47:19 I thought we were allotted only so many ports for a given telcon; I recollect running out once. 16:47:45 zakim, unmute me 16:47:45 mattraymond should no longer be muted 16:48:01 alternative collaboration technologies; 16:48:19 DD and MR using pointers from HTML WG space 16:48:53 DC: IRC channel been open since March 2007; anything written to channel is archived and stored on w3 space 16:49:26 hard to follow the mailing list plus the IRC channel (active 24 hours a day) 16:49:34 DanC: no one expects you to follow it 16:49:47 if you miss discussions, hard to find them 16:49:55 q 16:49:58 q+ 16:50:12 DanC: if you chat in IRC and want to bring attention to the whole WG, email a pointer 16:50:17 +[Mozilla] 16:50:23 JacksonW has joined #html-wg 16:50:25 scribenick: Gregory 16:50:46 hyatt has joined #html-wg 16:51:02 hi 16:51:17 hello hyatt 16:51:19 Zakim, [Mozilla] holds Gavin_Sharp 16:51:19 +Gavin_Sharp; got it 16:51:42 Zakim, Gavin_Sharp is Gavin 16:51:42 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Gavin_Sharp' 16:52:48 teleconference via the web? used to coordinate between gamers; don't know name of app 16:53:29 John_Boyer has joined #html-wg 16:53:30 DanC: 40 to 400 people at any given time; demo of Open Croquet (sp?) downloaded 16:53:56 something that would allow re-threading of related threads 16:54:07 jwz threading :-) 16:54:13 z 16:54:15 DanC: hard to do; email the lingua franca for a reason 16:54:25 MattRaymond: I think the software you mentioned is TeamSpeak 16:54:35 URI? 16:54:38 + +1.202.741.aajj 16:54:42 pasquale has joined #html-wg 16:54:51 CarolK has joined #html-wg 16:54:52 Yes, it was Teamspeak, I think. 16:55:04 - +47.61.aahh 16:55:11 Julian has joined #html-wg 16:55:14 + +1.250.294.aakk 16:55:19 hsivonen, please use MattRaymond, to address him, rather than MattRaymond: , as MattRaymond: is the syntax we use to record what somebody said, as in play notation. "Romeo: ..." 16:55:55 DanC, ok. this is the irssi autocomplete 16:55:57 DanC: Not use to using IRC 16:55:59 looking up jackson in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results 16:56:06 Jackson = me 16:56:14 Zakim, aajj is JacksonW 16:56:14 +JacksonW; got it 16:56:30 Zakim, aakk is John_Boyer 16:56:30 +John_Boyer; got it 16:56:42 +??P9 16:57:02 olli- has joined #html-wg 16:57:06 zakim, ??p9 is MikeSmith 16:57:07 +MikeSmith; got it 16:57:43 I'm not sure that I've been added correctly yet 16:57:47 q- 16:58:05 +Doug_Schepers 16:58:09 + +49.251.86.aall 16:58:15 zakim, unmute me 16:58:16 Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted 16:58:31 gavin, you can try 41# on the phone and that will tell us if you are really recorded right 16:58:34 zakim, mute me 16:58:35 mattraymond should now be muted 16:58:38 zakim, mute me 16:58:39 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted 16:58:44 zakim, aall is Julian 16:58:44 +Julian; got it 16:58:48 Zakim, mute glazou 16:58:48 glazou should now be muted 16:58:52 Zakim, aall is Julian_Reschke 16:58:52 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aall' 16:59:18 ack Debi 16:59:31 dbaron has joined #html-wg 16:59:34 soory, that may be my fault 16:59:40 ack moz 16:59:58 +??P26 17:00:05 mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg 17:00:10 +Oliver 17:00:24 ack me 17:00:27 adele and i are on zakim now 17:00:29 Olivier Gendrin? 17:00:34 Zakim, unmute glazou 17:00:34 glazou should no longer be muted 17:00:41 # Mikko Honkala 17:00:47 zakim, please mute me 17:00:47 chaals should now be muted 17:01:05 zakim, P26 is mikko_honkala 17:01:05 sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'P26' 17:01:08 is it time to call in? 17:01:10 Zakim, take up item 1 17:01:10 agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC] 17:01:10 zakim, ??P26 is mikko_honkala 17:01:12 +mikko_honkala; got it 17:01:14 yes, mjs 17:01:15 mjs, yes 17:01:22 +[Mozilla.a] 17:01:24 maciej: yes 17:01:35 +??P4 17:01:43 DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 17:01:49 zakim, [mozilla.a] is dbaron 17:01:49 +dbaron; got it 17:01:53 dbaron: gavin 17:02:01 Zakim, ??P4 is me 17:02:01 +anne5; got it 17:02:03 wonders if zakim thinks he's from mozilla 17:02:12 + +1.415.595.aamm 17:02:18 +[IPcaller] 17:02:20 +Ian_Hickson 17:02:20 +??P2 17:02:25 Zakim, i am Ian_Hickson 17:02:25 ok, Hixie, I now associate you with Ian_Hickson 17:02:25 Zakim, aamm is mjs 17:02:26 +mjs; got it 17:02:27 Zakim, mute me 17:02:27 Ian_Hickson should now be muted 17:02:30 adele has joined #html-wg 17:02:33 zakim, please mute me 17:02:33 JacksonW should now be muted 17:02:45 Zakim, who's talking 17:02:45 I don't understand 'who's talking', DanC 17:02:47 Zakim, I am Gavin_Sharp 17:02:47 sorry, gavin, I do not see a party named 'Gavin_Sharp' 17:02:47 Zakim, who's talking? 17:02:54 zakim, please mute me 17:02:54 mjs should now be muted 17:02:58 DanC, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 17:03:01 DanC: cannot hear you at all 17:03:10 zakim, who is making noise? 17:03:16 +TimBL 17:03:21 John_Boyer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: MikeSmith (2%), glazou (8%) 17:03:27 Zakim, mute ??P2 17:03:27 ??P2 should now be muted 17:03:33 -TimBL 17:03:35 Zakim, mute me 17:03:35 MikeSmith should now be muted 17:03:49 has no idea what port he's on 17:03:49 -mjs 17:03:52 Zakim, unmute me 17:03:52 MikeSmith should no longer be muted 17:03:57 zakim, who is here? 17:03:57 On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton, Somebody, glazou, mattraymond (muted), [Mozilla], 17:04:01 ... JacksonW (muted), John_Boyer, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala (muted), Oliver, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson (muted), [IPcaller], ??P2 (muted) 17:04:05 [Mozilla] has Gavin_Sharp 17:04:06 On IRC I see adele, mikko_honkala, dbaron, olli-, Julian, CarolK, pasquale, John_Boyer, hyatt, JacksonW, Shunsuke, henrik, heycam, Debi, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, 17:04:10 ... edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, 17:04:15 hyatt the port is the public one 6665 17:04:15 ... MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, 17:04:17 ... claudio 17:04:18 +??P13 17:04:19 +TimBL 17:04:20 hyatt and I are on the phone 17:04:28 chaals, use http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html 17:04:33 i meant my zakin id or something 17:04:39 +mjs 17:04:49 timbl has joined #html-wg 17:05:20 DanC: i will be your chair today; Chris Wilson will be joining soon 17:05:24 +??P27 17:05:30 scribe: Gregory 17:05:42 zakim, ??p27 is arun 17:05:42 +arun; got it 17:06:05 chaals: he's not on irc is he ? 17:06:10 DanC: Tim Berners-Lee and John Boyer invited guests 17:06:20 for real-time roll, see http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html 17:06:31 lbolstad has joined #html-wg 17:06:47 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/1458.html 17:06:57 ddailey has joined #html-wg 17:07:16 Where on this list http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html am I? 17:07:21 DanC: telecon questionaire comments incorporated into agenda by DanC 17:07:29 queue= 17:07:29 arun has joined #html-wg 17:07:38 DanC: comments on agenda? 17:08:03 hola arun 17:08:24 DanC: anyone who cannot access slash experience agenda? 17:08:26 NO 17:08:38 + +1.401.455.aann 17:08:48 DanC: anything you say will be recorded (or may be recorded) for posterity in public web space 17:08:59 zakim, aann is Tim_McMahon 17:08:59 +Tim_McMahon; got it 17:09:03 +[Microsoft] 17:09:15 Tim McMahon 17:09:23 -DanC 17:09:44 one of our chairs 17:09:46 ack me 17:10:01 zakim, mute me 17:10:01 chaals should now be muted 17:10:12 chaals: dan has dropped off, so chris please take over for now 17:10:26 Zakim, close item 1 17:10:26 agendum 1, Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z, closed 17:10:27 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:10:28 zakim, [microsoft] is temporarily chrisW 17:10:28 2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC] 17:10:29 +chrisW; got it 17:10:32 Zakim, take up item forms 17:10:32 agendum 3. "Forms baseline" taken up [from DanC] 17:10:32 arun: quantum physics... observe the chair and it changes :-) 17:10:33 Chris: better wait until DanC back on 17:10:44 lol 17:10:52 timbl: doesn't matter, they have opposite spin 17:10:53 s/Chris: better/MikeSmith: better/ 17:10:57 +Raman 17:11:02 sorry 17:11:17 Zakim, call DanC-BOS 17:11:17 ok, DanC; the call is being made 17:11:18 Zakim, mute me 17:11:18 +DanC 17:11:19 oops! 17:11:20 glazou should now be muted 17:11:32 Zakim, unmute me 17:11:32 glazou should no longer be muted 17:11:42 DanC: resume chairing meeting 17:11:42 Isn't entanglement working for us? 17:11:59 DanC: can we take item 3 instead of item 2? objections? 17:12:03 zakim, unmute me 17:12:03 mattraymond should no longer be muted 17:12:15 -hsivonen 17:12:23 "HTML5, comprising the Web Apps 1.0 and Web Forms 2.0 specifications, " 17:12:25 zakin, unmute me 17:12:33 zakim, unmute me 17:12:33 mjs was not muted, mjs 17:12:59 DS: does that mean taking it from WAF? 17:13:05 DanC: will this group take over Web Forms? Dave Raggett and others putting together a task force 17:13:09 q+ 17:13:16 q 17:13:19 q+ 17:13:19 DanC: discussion? 17:13:22 q+ 17:13:23 ack MattRaymond 17:13:25 q+ 17:13:32 Zakim, code 17:13:32 I don't understand 'code', hsivonen 17:13:54 Matt: would like clarification as to what is going on with XForms transitional; my understanding is not technically a working draft, but is specifically mentioned in HTML WG charter 17:14:20 (indeed... "XForms Transitional" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html ) 17:14:24 http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XForms-Transitional/ 17:14:53 ack John_Boyer 17:15:44 DanC: basic idea is not a WD at this point; look at what XForms currently provides and what HTML5 currently provides; address ease of use inherent in XForms 2.0; want best of both worlds 17:15:56 glazou has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16, conf call code is 4865 17:15:57 q+ 17:15:59 +??P19 17:16:02 comments are welcome on this, right? 17:16:18 http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html 17:16:19 should be a working draft - first public working draft should appear in June 2007 17:16:22 Zakim, +??P19 is hsivonen 17:16:22 sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19' 17:16:29 Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen 17:16:29 +hsivonen; got it 17:16:46 q? 17:16:47 Matt: made some comments on draft already on list 17:17:16 Matt: feedback with regards to document - have yet to get anything back; sent to public-html 17:17:35 q- 17:17:36 ack schepers 17:17:36 ack sch 17:17:51 -Somebody 17:17:55 DougS: might be good if established what we are discussing; 1) Web Forms 2.0 17:18:05 MattRaymonds comments about XForms Transitional: http://www.w3.org/mid/460DD062.7020404@earthlink.net 17:18:07 some talking of Web Forms 2, some XHTML tranistional 17:18:20 DougS: will HTML WG take over 17:18:28 as a task force or part of main activity 17:18:39 The HTML WG and the 28Forms Working Group  will work together in this Task Force to ensure that the new HTML forms and the new XForms Transitional have architectural consistency and that document authors can transition between them 17:18:46 arguments for both sides; feedback from XForms WD important 17:18:51 from charter 17:19:02 DanC: will be a task force that will investigate combining the 2 17:19:15 Matt: convergence of Web Forms 2 and XForms Transitional? 17:19:19 mjs: yes 17:19:35 Chris has joined #html-wg 17:19:37 q+ 17:19:50 (if folks could use , for direct address and : for attribution, I'd appreciate it. e.g. s/mjs:/mjs,/) 17:20:20 John Boyer: yes; XForms transitional maps to XForms; forms WG looking at how to make XForms easier to author; XForms has good bit on this, Web Forms 2 needs author direction 17:20:43 @ Boyer - the link you gave is not generally accessible. 17:20:44 features in HTML that don't find their way into XForms - specific to HTML because don't fit into XForms 17:21:08 + +035850570aaoo 17:21:19 JB: common tag set and vocabulary ESSENTIAL; whether expressed with well formed XML or tag soup, have same syntax, grammar, and concepts 17:21:32 ack mjs 17:21:48 zakim, +0358 is mikko_honkala 17:21:48 +mikko_honkala; got it 17:22:05 got dropped 17:22:42 MJS: discussion topic evolved since got on queue; forms task force goal as stated in HTML charter is to ensure the HTML forms and XForms have same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness; keep XForms functionality in spec, have task force work on declarative featuers 17:22:46 agree 17:22:58 agreed 17:23:03 yep 17:23:32 MJS: correction, I said "architectural consistency", not "same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness" 17:24:00 strong view of consistency; what's been communicated in vision document; trying to create common set of ideas indicated by common tag set; if look at doc source transition between the 2 straightfoward; key issue for document authors 17:24:15 survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/ 17:24:36 who will start forms task force? have HTML WG task survey; one task is forms task force (3 people already indicated interest) 17:24:47 q+ 17:24:50 ack hsivonen 17:24:51 DanC: extend deadline a bit 17:25:28 s/same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness/architectural consistency/ 17:25:29 q+ 17:25:58 agree; forms should be in spec itself rather than seperate spec; Web Forms 2.0 is implementable, XForms no implementation; issues raised on mailing list but no solution or resolution; problemmatic that doesn't seem implementable 17:26:01 (Besides the native implementation in Opera, there are also several libraries, a testsuite and a conformance checker.) 17:26:05 anyone aware of implementation? 17:27:02 ack Lachy 17:27:03 issues with JavaScript and side-effects not addressed in interoperable way so consistent across browsers; code execution order; 17:27:04 Gregory, Opera 17:27:06 s/agree/hsivonen: agree/ 17:27:50 ack schepers 17:27:52 q+ 17:27:59 Lachy: why is it a goal to make Web Forms more like XForms? doesn't make sense; XForms doesn't read like a spec; starting over with new spec would be place to start; changes to Web Forms 2.0 on point-by-point basis 17:28:13 certainly all feedback on the wf2 spec should be taken into account, especially from forms experts like the xforms wg 17:28:22 DougS: task force should be open to entire HTML WG; how will it work 17:28:29 joint task force between the 2 WGs 17:28:34 Gregory, correction, I said starting over with a enw spec would be a mistake 17:28:58 scribe's correction - Lachy said new spec would be mistake 17:29:21 mailing list of over 300 people, task forces organized in seperate lists 17:29:28 ack John_Boyer 17:30:20 JB: trying to do with XForms transitional is to leave it open for new people to define and refine what it states; don't want Web Forms 2.0 to be basis of document until WG has identified things that are likely to change 17:30:39 HTML5 proposal is not to publish, but use as basis of discussion 17:30:46 first deadline June 17:30:53 requirements 17:31:14 + +1.218.340.aapp 17:31:24 +DonD (was ??P2) 17:31:39 s/starting over with new spec would be place to start/mistakewould be a mistake/ 17:32:06 why rationalization necessary? trying to leverage the 7 or so years of experience that forms WG has had to address most complex forms problems; architecture in place that is very powerful; want to pull back to investigate how to make document authoring easier; solving more complicated problems being encounted now with HTML4 forms 17:32:18 ack martijn 17:32:21 ack MattRaymond 17:32:58 q+ 17:32:58 Matt: wondering if specific reason why first draft of XForms transitional can't be expressed as delta document? incorportate Web Forms 2 so don't have to reinvent the wheel 17:33:03 s/mistakewould be a mistake/starting over with new spec would be a mistake/ 17:33:19 DanC: asked Dave Raggett to join call but had conflict 17:33:29 Regrets+ Dave_Raggett 17:33:36 next XForms transitional document: amalgamation of 2 existing documents? 17:34:06 q+ 17:34:36 next document should have as much flow-in from useable material from whatever source; charter of HTML WG references XForms; task force will be reviewing and mapping and pulling in things from DaveR's bag of XForms with javascript efforts 17:34:37 q- 17:35:22 need a couple of editors -- forms WG participant and HTML WG pariticipant co-editors, gatekeepers put concepts and ideas before HTML WG and if WG happy with that, then procede 17:35:23 - +1.218.340.aapp 17:35:49 chairs need to identify who will do this; too many editors a problem, as is too few 17:36:24 survey of tasks sufficient to recruit; send pointer to public-html and collect responses 17:36:38 link provided in member space 17:36:52 need to join to have access 17:37:08 + +1.519.477.aaqq 17:37:09 everyone from IBM should have access - not limited to members of HTML WG 17:37:28 ACTION DanC: call for forms tf volunteers (with review from John B.) 17:37:28 q+ 17:37:44 it's not letting me in (non wg member) 17:37:52 q- 17:37:52 ack anne 17:37:58 DanC: before continue with queue, want people to think about moving to next agenda item 17:38:10 JB: appreciate change in agenda to accomodate me 17:38:19 myakura has joined #html-wg 17:38:30 would make sense if XForms WG were Web Forms is lacking 17:38:37 +??P33 17:38:38 in this together; 17:38:39 q+ 17:38:49 q+ 17:38:54 Zakim, ??P33 is MikeSmith 17:38:54 +MikeSmith; got it 17:39:15 Web Forms 2 has taken a lot of XForms transitional into account - what isn't solved by Web Forms 2? 17:39:20 q- 17:39:33 good question to ask, no answer necessary 17:39:42 s/Web Forms/Anne: Web Forms/ 17:39:53 s/good/DanC: good/ 17:40:10 Nesting of repetition is addressed though... 17:40:20 John_Boyer, oh the survey page... dunno if everyone can address that, sorry 17:40:26 olli- has left #html-wg 17:40:31 have to answer to someone; if look at repeating as example, easy to build list of items; help if repeating structure had a consistent behavior when try to nest it; at least 2 level nesting VERY important to get right; 17:40:32 John_Boyer, Sam Ruby joined on behalf of IBM btw 17:40:43 re "no answer necessary"... I'll have to elaborate in email. that's not a very good record of what I said. or meant. 17:40:46 Agenda: On http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results I made a proposal for the agenda of the HTML WG concerning email address protection on websides. Is there any opinion to that topic or any opinion, if this could/should be solved by this WG? 17:41:02 there are examples of nesting for Web Forms 2 - best to post specific use case / scenario where you think things are lacking 17:41:21 ack hsivonen 17:41:27 DanC: wrap up issue, please 17:41:46 Zakim, mute me 17:41:46 MikeSmith should now be muted 17:42:00 vision for XForms Trans for non-professional authors; server-side portion - can such a product be made with standardization 17:42:05 ack mjs 17:42:09 don't think that's true - can talk about why you think that 17:42:40 s/vision for/hsivonen: vision for/ 17:42:46 most useful way to express XForms Trans a set of team requests relative to Web Forms 2 with reasons for suggestion; use cases arbitrary 17:43:05 ack dbaron 17:43:08 now have trouble - attributes seem to be the same, but not enough definition to ascertain if the same 17:43:16 + +1.218.340.aarr 17:43:28 s/don't think/John_Boyer: don't think/ 17:43:57 architectural consistency is usually an argument when 1 group of people trying to influence another group; using W3C forces browser venders to implement XForms; if you don that they'll just leave 17:43:58 agreed with dbaron 17:44:07 agreed 17:44:08 my point was that the product vision for XForms Transitional should be demonstrated in a non-standard product before trying to standardize authoring-product interop 17:44:09 an argument on either side of the debate 17:44:18 disagree 17:44:20 - +1.218.340.aarr 17:44:27 Murray: can everyone speaking ID themselves? 17:44:35 Zakim, next item 17:44:35 agendum 2. "Design Principles and Requirements" taken up [from DanC] 17:44:36 DanC: ok, more of that is welcome, i guess 17:44:47 s/architectural consistency/dbaron: architectural consistency/ 17:44:53 [it would help with identifying people if speakers named themselves...] 17:45:12 MJS: I was the one who said that I think the most useful way to express XForms Transitional would be as a set of change requests relative to Web Forms 2 w/ use case justifications (just to clarify) 17:45:13 Voluminous has joined #html-wg 17:45:15 s/influence another group/make another group implement something/ 17:45:47 DanC: item 2 - summary: W3C process has WGs publishing every 3 months; useful; HTML5 spec on our agenda - interesting, but small miracle to get published as WD in june; design principles - don't break the web; 17:46:08 JB: The best approach might actually be to identify the use cases, then adopt WF2 or XForms or hybrid solutions as they become apparent based on the use cases 17:46:14 s/most useful way/mjs: most useful way/ 17:46:21 design principles are an attempt to capture values of community, but don't tend to be hard-and-fast measurable things; 17:46:28 johnst has left #html-wg 17:46:46 s/design principles/DanC: design principles/ 17:46:55 -John_Boyer 17:46:57 John_Boyer has left #html-wg 17:47:28 hixie did a lot of research on what is implemented; why does it have to be defined this way? because of dependencies; arguments pro and con; role of requirements in discussion 17:47:59 s/hixie/... hixie/ 17:48:00 outcome of having requirements abstract design to allow those not directly participating in this group; requirements document should be understandable by all 17:48:25 s/outcome of/... outcome of/ 17:48:30 W3C strives for consensus, but in this case didn't get it; so, we made a WG; if not happy about charter, there is a long line before you 17:48:34 -DonD 17:48:50 browser threshold - this WG can set it as requirement 17:49:04 interested in possibility of W3C goals and requirements 17:49:22 anyone who disagrees with one of the design principles so far 17:49:35 s/anyone/Matt Raymond: anyone/ 17:49:41 +??P2 17:49:42 Murray: disagree with one; related to semantic markup and effectively deprecating presentational markup 17:49:43 looking at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples 17:50:21 seperation of concerns: spec should enable the seperation; does not require; specifically states that some presentational markup be retained 17:50:27 q+ 17:50:33 q+ 17:50:40 I hear what mjs said but I'm with Murray here 17:50:40 q+ 17:50:47 could say "look thing is stablized; will give WG x amount of time to review" 17:51:04 q+ 17:51:50 it's a wiki 17:51:51 Murray: think i would appreciate if have a designated activity with goal and deadline for producing such a document; should be an open process; if opinions in conflict, need to incorporate and synthesize down to what can be agreed upon 17:51:52 300 people aren't going to agree on much of anything :) 17:51:57 contribute 17:51:58 s/seperation of concerns/Maciej: separation of concerns/ 17:52:08 there's no way we'll _ever_ have everyone agree on everything in a group this size 17:52:10 he who contributes owns it -- DanC 17:52:11 hyatt, unless you suggest a beer 17:52:20 ack ddailey 17:52:21 josef has joined #html-wg 17:52:25 process now ad hoc, here to talk about making it more formal 17:52:40 the point of design principles is to document what we decided on point where there *is* likely to be disagreement 17:52:53 -Tim_McMahon 17:52:54 s/on point/on points/ 17:52:56 s/he who contributes owns it -- DanC/DanC: People who do work should have a fair bit of say over how it is done/ 17:53:12 everyone has been allowed to do anything; 17:53:27 DanC: The way you volunteer is by starting to do some work. 17:53:36 proscriptive and descriptive -- prescriptive: here are principles you should believe in 17:53:51 q+ 17:53:55 if dissent on set of principles group expected to abide by, then group discohesive 17:54:10 in a group this size there will _always_ be dissent, the whole point of these principles is to set the line for where people _will_ disagree 17:54:22 sometimes good to keep watering down until everyone agrees, sometimes have to say no full agreement, but need something 17:54:27 q+ to suggest that the operation of a group coming to a more or less shared set of principles is an important step 17:54:32 s/proscriptive and/Murray: proscriptive and/ 17:54:42 don't reinvent the wheel -- don't agree; tends to stifle innovation 17:54:59 DanC: not really doing innovation, doing standards work 17:55:03 s/if dissent/... if dissent/ 17:55:06 a lot of stuff already proposed 17:55:25 -David_D 17:55:26 Zakim, mute ??P2 17:55:26 ??P2 should now be muted 17:56:01 ack schepers 17:56:08 q- 17:56:18 q+ 17:57:01 DougS: looked through design principles again; in past thought some very vague; looking through them, don't actually have an understanding of where we are; problem with adopting now is how do we test them? wiki documents or official documents 17:57:03 ddailey has left #html-wg 17:57:10 zakim, who is making noise? 17:57:21 chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anne5 (13%), Doug_Schepers (5%), ??P13 (13%) 17:57:24 a tool to expedite work; 17:57:37 DougS: not all of them are clear in what the implications of them are 17:57:38 zakim, mute ??p13 17:57:38 ??P13 should now be muted 17:57:39 s/Murray: proscriptive and/David_D: prescriptive and/ 17:57:56 need an i ching or tarot card deck - whatever you see in it is what you belive 17:58:05 i think don't break the web is pretty obvious 17:58:17 don't break the web means a thousand things to a thousand people 17:58:24 q+ to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group 17:58:46 elaborate the 2 paragraphs currently extant; possible not usefol to adopt as group 17:59:26 olli has joined #html-wg 17:59:33 -??P2 17:59:38 -Raman 17:59:44 (did I set any expecatations about telcon duration? 90min is what I have in mind now. i.e. 30 min from now.) 18:00:16 ChrisW: don't break the web as a browser means when deploy new browser, don't disturb systems or ecosystems already extant; need to keep errors in it otherwise infuriate web authors; many are ignorant of specs and reflexively blame browser (Chris' interpretation); 18:00:32 DanC, don't think so 18:00:44 -Preston 18:01:38 alternate interpretation from ChrisW: don't have a revolution that overturns what has worked in the past; easier to progressively deploy UAs; with XHTML required all UAs be able to accept a different mime-type; IE6 didn't support that mime-type; ended up with server side multiple delivery options to support XHTML; 18:01:40 -[IPcaller] 18:01:44 agree with chrisw 18:02:15 Dan: point of order: duration of telecon: 60 minutes mean adjourn now, have bridge reserved for another hour 18:02:27 agree on 60 18:02:29 ack me 18:02:43 q- 18:02:48 end now (2); end in half an hour (4); 18:02:54 DanC: 30 more minutes 18:02:55 I have to go, bye people 18:03:02 bye Daniel 18:03:06 DanC: HTML5 and design principles 18:03:22 zakim, mute me 18:03:22 chaals should now be muted 18:03:23 -glazou 18:03:30 ack mjs 18:04:31 +??P6 18:05:10 Lachy: 2 things - tried to document any principles where there is disagreement - that's why there is a disputed section; have to make decision as group; can't have things both ways; called for current version to be adopted so that everyone working off same document; if make W3C note, there will be an official standard procedure to make comments, objections, etc.; if want more consensus, putting it up as a W3C note would be good 18:05:27 Gregory, I didn't say that 18:05:29 DS: if "Don't break the Web" is put in the disputed category, I'll rescind my objection 18:05:30 sierk has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16, conf call code is 4865 18:05:32 s/Lachy/Maciej/ 18:05:43 what edits are in the work? if stable can work quicker 18:05:59 need to make public; elaborate on things - eliminate what can be interpreted multiple ways 18:06:01 q+ MM 18:06:04 ack timbl 18:06:04 timbl, you wanted to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the 18:06:07 ... group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group 18:07:12 ??P6 is Henrik 18:07:12 TimBL: The "don't break the Web" issue is one of the reasons the TAG was formed 18:07:39 s/The "don't break the Web" issue/questions about design principles of web architecture/ 18:08:19 ack mm 18:08:20 TBL: design principles very hairy; TAG trying to determine what makes web work and what breaks it; journey of arriving on consensus valuable; have whole group in on discussion, creates common vocabulary and trust in one another; part of formation of group; hope for web was that all this discussion would happen via pointers; ease of work internally important 18:08:21 polin8 has joined #html-wg 18:08:46 Murray: versioning - decision has to be made; example of decision made by WG rather than a document that discussed principles 18:10:14 q+ 18:10:16 document that discusses principles should be a basket of low-hanging fruit; extrapolated doucment from technical architecture document and applied to HTML; discussions on principles widely disputed; might be interesting for concerted statement to be made, but if too large a number of objectors, weakens the spec; need something that everyone can point to and work towards 18:10:35 if find significant disagreement, have to remove them from requirements 18:11:05 DanC: get 2 reviewers and see what happens after a week 18:11:19 another possibility is go around the table - 27 people - too many 18:11:25 27 is too few, given the size of our group, not too many :-) 18:11:40 -Oliver 18:12:03 proposal: recruit 2 reviewers now, take a week to review current text, give as much editorial comments as possible, and a final i agree or disagree 18:12:39 B) another approach: recruit 2 people, and talk again 18:12:57 Q: reviewers or editors? 18:13:16 review in more formal sense; someone who can say on behalf of group this is something we can publish 18:13:16 A: recruit 2 reviewers; largely delegate to them. 18:13:39 B: recruit 2 reviewers; then talk more 18:13:44 C: none of the above 18:13:48 DS: I think the reviewers should be people not involved in writing the document 18:13:54 MM B 18:13:55 B 18:13:56 B 18:13:57 B 18:13:58 b 18:13:59 shouldn't we also let people who aren't on the call be able to decide this? 18:14:00 choice A: comfortable with what is there now; choice B: reviewers lead discussion in group; C) neither 18:14:04 A 18:14:05 B 18:14:05 B 18:14:06 B 18:14:12 A 18:14:13 B 18:14:14 A 18:14:15 B 18:14:17 A 18:14:18 B 18:14:18 A 18:14:20 A 18:14:20 A 18:14:20 B 18:14:21 A 18:14:23 B 18:14:23 A 18:14:24 A 18:14:24 A 18:14:26 hixie, we're not making a technical decision 18:14:28 A 18:14:28 B 18:14:30 A 18:14:33 just thinking about how to use email etc. 18:14:47 B 18:14:55 polin8 has joined #html-wg 18:14:58 B = 15 18:15:11 B above A by small margin 18:15:13 who's offering to review? 18:15:35 critical issues, editorial nits, etc. 18:15:41 offers for review? 18:15:52 Ian H (hixie) offered earlier 18:16:13 schepers 18:16:16 So will cwilso. :) 18:16:19 ACTION IanH: review http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain 18:16:33 ACTION DougS: review http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain 18:16:41 DougS: would like to define role what is formal review process 18:16:59 one email that says i'm done reviewing and thumbs-up or thumbs-down 18:17:00 it'll be done within the hour 18:17:09 deadline: by next monday 18:17:20 we lost zakim 18:17:42 Zakim has joined #html-wg 18:17:42 if reviewers make comments requesting editorial or substantive changes, should Ian change document? 18:17:52 Zakim, close this agendum 18:17:52 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC 18:17:56 when make substantive changes, PLEASE alert mailing list (public-html) 18:17:57 Zakim, this is HTML 18:17:57 ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM 18:18:12 Zakim, take up item 4 18:18:12 I see nothing on the agenda 18:18:18 Topic: HTML spec baseline 18:18:54 + +1.519.477.aaaa 18:19:07 whatwg.org/html5 and whatwg.org/wf2 18:19:11 whatever is current when it happens 18:19:26 need to track versioning 18:19:34 revision 1000 18:19:36 what's the current version? or md5sum? 18:19:37 need version number pasted into IRC 18:19:45 really? v1000? 18:19:45 785 is the latest 18:19:48 (no, we're at 785) 18:19:59 (but the revision being proposed is whatever is latest when we take it) 18:20:01 and md5sum? 18:20:31 proposal is to use Web Applications 1.0 as base 18:20:42 http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker 18:20:42 -arun 18:20:43 -mattraymond 18:20:50 DanC: want to know what version we are discussing/using as a basis for work 18:20:53 today's version is 785 18:20:58 but it'll probably be 788 by tonight 18:21:04 and 800 by next week 18:21:05 and... 18:21:10 no pointer in original proposal 18:21:22 Dave Hyatt as editor? open floor 18:21:26 anne5: thanks, is there such a tracker for wf2 too? 18:21:31 i mean, the spec has revved twice just in this phone call! 18:21:39 it doesn't make sense to throw away the work WHATWG will do by the time this WG reaches the decision 18:21:44 josef, wf2 probably won't get changes anymore 18:21:47 B slightly over A 18:22:04 Murray: designated reviewers? 18:22:06 josef, the idea is to fold it in 18:22:19 DanC: Ian Hickson and Doug Schepers - everyone else can play along 18:22:45 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ is a useful sync mechanism 18:23:18 put the question today and give WG a group a week to answer 18:23:27 request: chair think out loud 18:25:04 q+ 18:25:14 Zakim has joined #html-wg 18:25:26 Zakim, this is HTML 18:25:26 ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM 18:25:30 item 4 on agenda - have proposal from 9 april 2007 to use HTML5 and WF2 as basis for discussion; if adopt proposal, need to review all proposals; conversation between editors and proposer on public-html; if issue particularly sticky, alert chairs and will be discussed under time limit 18:25:36 the current whatwg spec is definitely not in stone 18:25:45 i have 1000s of outstanding comments to deal with still 18:26:05 need new information before anything is changed; would not have status of resolved technical opinion; nothing set in stone; if want addition, have to justify it to WG 18:26:32 sufficient to send email to ask questions or use WBS forms? 18:26:51 chairs should make this decision and welcome any disagreement 18:27:02 I don't want more +1s on the list, use a WBS form 18:27:10 already at that point - just want to word the question correctly 18:27:10 s/chairs should/Murray: chairs should/ 18:27:13 wbs 18:27:15 I would also suggest a WBS form 18:27:24 wbs 18:27:30 for something of this scale it's good to have things on the record 18:27:42 WBS probably most straightfoward thing; ChrisW want your eyeballs 18:27:52 DanC and ChrisW will speak tomorrow 18:28:15 What is WBS? 18:28:27 e.g. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results#xattend 18:28:34 will put into WBS form; one vote per member; if votes are all yes and abstaining then carries; if objections then chairs will decide the question 18:28:54 invited experts also get a vote each 18:28:57 one vote per member; invited experts also get to vote 18:29:17 gotta go... thanks folks 18:29:21 ack schepers 18:29:22 not looking for majority or popular vote, but consensus; if object have a substatial reason why 18:29:22 -JacksonW 18:29:54 i gotta go, i have another meeting 18:29:58 DougS: if issue comes up were wide amount of disagreement - who decides: chairs? editors? to what degree are editors responsible to WG? 18:30:15 DanC: consensus means many yes votes and no objection 18:30:31 OIC 18:30:34 -Ian_Hickson 18:30:35 if lack consensus chairs decide 18:30:42 ACTION DanC: put the HTML spec baseline discussion by WBS in the next day or so 18:30:58 Does consensus require absolute zero against? 18:31:01 DanC: will give everyone a full week to respond 18:31:10 DanC: adjourn formal meeting 18:31:13 [please generally give a week for WBS questions] 18:31:21 ADJOUN. 18:31:22 consensus = zero against 18:31:29 next meeting? 18:31:41 will we meet with some regularity? 18:31:51 DanC: authorized by charter to meet up to 1 time per week 18:32:07 -Debi_Orton 18:32:30 DanC: would like to have 2 scheduled times: one good for North America and Europe one good for Asia - rotate them 18:33:04 I suggest preferring mailing list over telecons 18:33:27 scribe's correction: not rotate meetings, but on decision of chair 18:33:40 s/rotate them/swap between them based on whatever the chair feels like that week/ 18:34:35 ChrisW: don't want a weekly telecon; volume of email already swamping; telecon not going to help that dramatically; do want to meet regularly - once every month; actually twice every month with overlapping times 18:34:55 propose a time anyone? 18:34:58 -mjs 18:35:11 -TimBL 18:35:18 ack me 18:35:25 my reason for wanting to prefer email is that with the telecon ideas don't seem to be communicated as accurately 18:35:28 bye 18:35:30 -mikko_honkala.a 18:35:30 1pm thursday is, this time of year: 18:35:32 bye 18:35:37 UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 17:00:00 UTC 18:35:37 Auckland: Fri 2007-04-27 05:00:00 NZST 18:35:37 Sydney: Fri 2007-04-27 03:00:00 EST 18:35:37 Tokyo: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 JST 18:35:37 Seoul: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 KST 18:35:38 this time (1 pm EDST) is not good for asian participation 18:35:38 Beijing: Fri 2007-04-27 01:00:00 CST 18:35:38 bye 18:35:41 -Julian 18:35:42 Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 20:00:00 EEST 18:35:44 Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 19:00:00 CEST 18:35:46 London: Thu 2007-04-26 18:00:00 BST 18:35:51 Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 EDT 18:35:53 San Francisco:Thu 2007-04-26 10:00:00 PDT 18:36:06 -[Mozilla] 18:36:08 early evening in europe - earlier in the day would probably suit europe better 18:36:14 depends upon who you are 18:36:26 quit 18:36:31 who cares about 1 hour earlier or later on thursday afternoon 18:36:33 #quit 18:36:36 Lachy: earlier better 18:36:37 -PatrickDFIon 18:36:41 Debi has left #html-wg 18:36:52 DanC: trying to pick another time when sun is up in OZ 18:37:18 primal1 has joined #html-wg 18:37:46 DougS: for SVG meeting east coast US (1 am boston time) 18:38:17 DanC: midnight chairing not convenient, but ChrisW could chair 18:38:21 midnight Boston is: 18:38:23 UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 04:00:00 UTC 18:38:23 Auckland: Thu 2007-04-26 16:00:00 NZST 18:38:23 Sydney: Thu 2007-04-26 14:00:00 EST 18:38:23 Tokyo: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 JST 18:38:23 Seoul: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 KST 18:38:24 Beijing: Thu 2007-04-26 12:00:00 CST 18:38:26 Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 07:00:00 EEST 18:38:28 Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 06:00:00 CEST 18:38:30 London: Thu 2007-04-26 05:00:00 BST 18:38:32 Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 00:00:00 EDT 18:38:37 San Francisco:Wed 2007-04-25 21:00:00 PDT 18:38:41 DanC: not trying to pick a hard-and-fast time; 18:39:02 Chaals: go for 10pm Boston time or 9pm Boston time good for asian participation 18:39:09 mw22_ has joined #html-wg 18:39:28 nine hour difference between Boston time and Australian time 18:39:40 -??P6 18:39:57 DanC: ChrisW - you probably will be chairing the asian meeting; DanC is happy to chair at this time 1pm EDST once a month 18:40:39 action ChrisW: pick asian teleconference time 18:40:43 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ 18:40:44 ACTION Chris: try to find a Seattle/OZ time 18:40:49 Beijing and Boston are 12 hours apart in July 18:41:11 chaals: 10pm eastern will get you most of asia and OZ 18:41:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:41:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html chaals 18:41:43 Gregory, I'll send out the edited record 18:41:45 thanks for scribing! 18:41:55 do you need IRC log? 18:42:15 Perhaps find timezone distribution of of participants and find optimum + alternative times on that basis? 18:42:17 2 meetings a month - one at 1 pm Boston time; one which ChrisW will pick for asian time 18:42:31 -DanC 18:42:33 -Lachy 18:42:33 -dbaron 18:42:33 DanC: unseats himself from the chair 18:42:35 - +1.519.477.aaaa 18:42:37 -chaals 18:42:38 -hsivonen 18:42:38 bye all 18:42:41 -anne5 18:42:44 -chrisW 18:42:50 -Doug_Schepers 18:43:28 xover, you're welcome to do that research, but I expect the actual optimum to involve so many factors that I'm not sure how valuable it will be. 18:43:53 timezone of participant doesn't give you all that much information about when they can attend meetings 18:43:55 I think meeting twice a month would be reasonable 18:43:56 Dan: do you want slash need my IRC log? 18:44:24 if you're going to edit the minutes, should i refrain from running RRSagent? 18:44:55 I agree with dbaron about timezone not telling all that much 18:45:17 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:45:17 See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T18-45-17 18:45:21 subteam meetings are advanced via telecons, not huge groups such as HMTL WG 18:45:22 Gregory, that's all the log I need 18:45:25 I know people who wake up at 5am and people who go to sleep at 5am. 18:45:31 yep 18:45:31 ok, dan 18:45:32 yeah, I'm East Coast US, but I'd much rather meet afternoon/evening/night than morning 18:45:46 my yep was to dbaron 18:46:05 plus one to DougS' comment 18:46:08 agreeing about times when people are awake 18:46:14 -Gregory_Rosmaita 18:46:25 and some people especially in Japan can't call in during work hours 18:46:43 MikeSmith: are they just lazy? 18:47:06 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:47:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC 18:47:17 I think best time for people in Japan is after 8pm 18:47:46 Meeting: HTML WG 1st Teleconference 18:47:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:47:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC 18:47:55 Chair: DanC 18:48:08 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:48:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC 18:48:24 Zakim, list attendees 18:48:24 As of this point the attendees have been PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala, 18:48:28 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:48:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC 18:48:28 ... dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson, TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa 18:50:13 DanC, I'm still not sure why the XForms WG would not be obliged to answer my question. After all, it seems that the HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea... 18:50:35 Or did John Boyer say that and not you and the minutes are wrong? 18:50:57 what the HTML WG feels on the topic hasn't been decided. 18:51:13 "HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea" -= me 18:51:16 you're coming to conclusions based on a lack of information. 18:51:45 sorry about misattributions - first priority was to try and catch what was being said 18:51:48 Or perhaps from a lack of discussion, as yet. 18:51:59 based on majority vote after the HTML5 proposal was made 18:52:20 well, we're about to have a straw poll to find out more officially what the HTML WG thinks 18:52:36 good point; I keep forgetting that forms is part of the HTML5 package 18:52:36 yeah, I suppose 18:52:42 if at that point the Forms WG thinks that HTML forms features in the draft are insufficient, I do think they are obliged to say why 18:52:51 Missed that. Perhaps the vote was more for "we should think about this". 18:53:09 I also thing we should consider the point dbaron made about trying to get something implemented in browsers 18:53:26 yes, dbaron's point is well made. 18:53:42 heycam has joined #html-wg 18:54:01 Folks, I have to leave now. Bye 18:54:13 bye 18:54:21 I overstate the case when I say they're not obliged to say why; but WF2 proponents have an equal obligation to say why it is the way it is. 18:54:22 For what it's worth, I wasn't saying that architectural consistency is bad -- I'm just saying that when it comes up is a debate I think it's a sign that the debate is often really about something else. 18:54:27 sierk has left #html-wg 18:54:36 fwiw, I also think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the forms wg for specific comments on WF 2.0 18:55:34 plus 1 to hsivonen's last comment re asking forms wg for specific comments 18:55:39 I meant to say on the telcon that WF2 has taken as much from XForms as possible into account while remaining compatible with the existing architecture. 18:55:56 Where existing architecture is deployed HTML content and implementations. 18:56:05 it is less reasonable to ask to work from XForms Transitional, because the XForms Transitional isn't a spec you could interoperably implement by just reading the document 18:56:13 anne - you might want to reiterate that on-list 18:56:28 this is why I suggested preferring email 18:56:46 we are now trying to explain and guess what who said 18:57:41 s/the XForms Transitional/the XForms Transitional draft/ 18:57:56 this has already found its way onto the list now ;) 18:58:11 my instructions were to capture the thoughts comments and actions; if you are misattributed, contact DanC or reply to the posting of the minutes announcement on public-html 18:58:15 also, another reason it's a valid question is that the XForms Transitional draft is partially a copy & paste of WF2 features 18:58:29 I also agree with hsivonen that there should be a point-by-point assessment 18:58:46 Gregory: what I said wasn't in any way meant as a criticism to the scribe 18:58:49 Preston: I've opened a student thesis topic about evaluating potential of forms, but I cannot say whether someone will work on it or not 18:59:13 hsivonen: none taken - just striving for accuracy 18:59:27 several of WF2 proponents have given feedback about XF Trans, yet, I haven't heard any substantial feedback from the XForms proponents about WF2. 18:59:37 I think the scribe did a lousy job :) 18:59:54 thanks, doug :P 19:00:02 any time, Gregory 19:00:22 Lars Erik Bolstad was on the call 19:00:51 he said something on IRC 19:01:13 Josef: Interesting - what would that mean? Are you going to inflict the working group on the student? 19:03:52 Preston: no, but we had several issues with XForms (and even more with traditional forms), and the work would be to add some WF2 generator code to a uni project and to evaluate its strengths and weaknesses afterwards. There will probably be no browser-related implementation work, but in case of implementations issues, hunting them down would be part of the evaluation. Having an overview about which rendering engine supports WF2 to which extent would be nice. 19:04:04 GJR;s list of attendees: Patrick Ion; Mike Smith; Gavin Sharp; Charles McN (chaals); Lachlan Hunt (lachy); Ian Hickson (hixie); Preston Banister; Ken Savant, Karl Dubost; Michael Cooper; Tim Berners-Lee; David Daley; John St ?; Julian, Anne (anne5); Debbi Orton; Matt Raymond; Olivier Gendrin; Mikko Honkala; Henrik; Shunsuke; Patrick; Dan Hyatt; Jackson W; John Boyer; Pasquale; Carol K; Jackson Wilson; Mike Smith; Doug Schepers; David Baron; Adele; Arun from 19:04:21 Dave Hyatt, not Dan Hyatt 19:04:35 but if you want to call me dan i'll respond to it! ;) 19:04:45 sorry dave - i SHOULD have a better aural buffer and a better memory... 19:04:46 Gregory: Henri Sivonen (hsivonen) 19:04:57 thanks henri - i'll add you to the list 19:04:59 josef, Opera 9 has an implementation 19:05:21 (with some known problems, obviously) 19:05:42 dave - even if i call you dan, i won't call you late for dinner... 19:06:02 Arun Ranganathan, Lars Erik Bolstad 19:06:36 josef, tests: http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/forms/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/repetition/ 19:06:57 josef, if you search on Google you should be able to find some scripted libraries that implement the controls for Internet Explorer, etc. 19:07:04 Hixie has joined #html-wg 19:07:16 GJR counts 40 participants in his list, plus DanC and me 19:07:23 so that would make 42 on record 19:07:33 http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/ 19:07:36 josef, http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/ has some demo's 19:07:46 42 19:07:50 problem solved 19:08:07 what was the question again? 19:08:13 right 19:08:15 :) 19:08:39 beowulf, the question of life, the universe and everything 19:08:43 " If you were using Internet Explorer 6 on a Windows machine or Opera 9, this demo would actually work! " (looking at http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/ ) 19:09:21 "how many participated in the telecon?" == "what is the answer to life, universe and everything?" 19:09:30 43? 19:09:42 anne5: thanks, I've bookmarked those (in konqueror, how ironic...) 19:09:48 hehe 19:09:49 scribe's count was 42 19:09:49 never can remember which it is 19:09:50 zcorpan, yes, 42 19:10:18 Zeros has joined #html-wg 19:10:36 the question is: what's the meaning of the question of which the answer is 42 19:10:41 or something 19:10:54 what the? 19:11:08 and when we work that out, weither by WBS or email, we'll have forgotten the answer 19:11:11 Douglas Adams ghost makes 43 ... 19:12:28 :) 19:12:47 amazing how it worked out to 42, innit? 19:12:59 and slightly scary 19:14:52 Oh my: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#ultimateQuestion-42 19:17:02 adele has left #html-wg 19:17:06 drat, just too late 19:18:46 (not that I did anything of note other than vote, but...) 19:22:53 Sander, you can always write a corerction 19:23:00 when the minutes are posted. 19:23:03 Hi, BTW 19:27:19 hyatt has joined #html-wg 19:29:57 ok, e-mailed the bit about WF2 on the mailng list 19:30:44 Sander, doesn't really matter whether you're on such lists or not 19:31:17 despite appearances, i wasn't quite 5 either 19:31:24 LOL! 19:33:10 anne42, when do you turn 21? 19:34:19 is that good or bad? 19:34:31 good question 19:34:42 I think it's bad 19:34:45 Bordeaux fête le Vin? 19:34:55 but ymmv 19:35:41 night folks 19:35:48 night, chaals 19:35:49 night 19:36:11 schepers, 1st of August 19:36:25 whoah! that's soon! 19:36:46 I thought you were still 19 or something 19:37:19 Oh geez - how many else on this list are just slightly older than my kids ... 19:37:43 I am... if your kids are slightly younger than 38 19:37:51 likewise 19:38:14 i'd be younger than your 38 year old kids 19:38:22 but not by much 19:38:32 heh 19:39:05 i kinda wanted someone to ask timbl if he was on facebook or myspace and would he add them? i thought this was funny in my head 19:39:32 He is on My.Opera 19:39:33 beowulf: yes, it is funny... in your head :P 19:39:38 :)) 19:39:52 Hixie has joined #html-wg 19:40:05 I think he joins places that let him connect out of them, and use Foaf. I think there is one other somewhere... 19:40:06 I wonder if he's on LinkedIn? 19:47:02 hello again Hixie 19:47:28 DanC: i think it's worth noting that while many of the wf2 proponents have made detailed reviews of the xforms transitional document, there really have not been any detailed reviews of the web forms 2 document from the xforms transitional proponents 19:49:27 also, a number of people have told me privately, and some others have said here in this channel, that they didn't think the meeting was a good use of 40 man-hours; maybe we should have a poll for the people who were on the call to see whether there is consensus over the use of having telecons? 19:50:50 i did not feel like the telecon was particularly productive 19:51:04 but i admit to being biased against telecons in general 19:51:07 or maybe telecons should be repositioned as just a way for people to get to talk to people about active topics, rather than the formal feel it had today (i mean, we made process decisions in today's call, which isn't to say we made technical decisions, but still, it seems bad to be making process decisions with less than 10% of the group present) 19:51:48 Personally, I am not especially fond of teleconferences. Better to reflect and occasionally summarize in writing. 19:51:57 I would prefer if the telecon made proposals to the mailing list (even for process issues, if it is one of significant weight) as opposed to trying to decide things 19:52:23 I am happy for such proposals to be either "any objections" format or a straw poll 19:52:43 loic has joined #html-wg 19:53:03 (Oddly enough, had to drop out if the call for another call - just when Chris was saying something interesting.) 19:53:13 s/if/of/ 19:53:28 the decision to have designated reviewers for the design principles in particular is one that I would have preferred to decide over email, but since it was just a decision to have formal review and then talk more, I don't think it is a huge problem in practice 19:53:45 yeah it's not clear to me what that decision really meant 19:53:48 but anyway, i've sent my review 19:59:44 Zeros has joined #html-wg 20:05:47 I suppose telcons might be useful if you're not conformtable with putting forward some suggestion 20:12:04 PatrickDFIon has joined #html-wg 20:20:19 some people do feel more comfortable on the phone 20:20:29 I am ok with it as a discussion forum, not as much for a decision forum 20:21:42 yeah 20:22:02 I was surprised that people where put off by the way the design principles have been created... 20:22:14 to me it seemed like a natural process 20:23:03 I don't feel the same way, but I'm not surprised 20:23:14 wait, let me clarify 20:23:23 honestly, it started by me pasting things into the wiki that people said here 20:23:28 because folks asked me to 20:23:48 and I changed lots of things in response to feedback on the mailing list 20:24:02 I'm not surprised that people were put off by the creation process, but I don't share their concern 20:24:34 it was certainly ad-hoc, but I did not want to wait for a signed permission slip before typing up a rough draft 20:24:42 any time you come late to a conversation, you're likely to feel left out (to paraphrase TBL) 20:25:34 well, just say what you think 20:25:45 you won't be intentially ignored 20:26:02 my only remaining question is what effect is being aimed for by making them Official? 20:26:10 intentionally 20:26:27 anne42, like I said, I'm not shy, so I'm not worried... lots of people are shy, though 20:26:33 I think about the same effect as any other non-normative W3C Note that is not a technical specification 20:26:48 schepers: I actively sought feedback and I believe I was polite in all my replies 20:26:49 people point to it for clarification, but it has no weight 20:27:23 mjs: I'm not implying you didn't or weren't 20:27:39 design decision FAQ 20:28:01 like the TAG AWWW document 20:28:15 schepers: well, I'm not sure how else to help shy people other than to ask for input and be nice to anyone who gives it 20:28:33 s/suprsed/surprised/ 20:28:47 well that is silly but ok 20:33:53 AWWW is rather more focused and less subject to interpretation compared to the proposed Design Principles 20:34:27 depends on who you ask I suppose 20:34:42 anne42: exactly what I mean 20:34:59 it's not what you're saying though :p 20:36:00 the fact that they are so open to interpretation is exactly my point... it should be a matter of "who you ask"... it should be clear prima facie 20:37:03 huh? 20:37:37 huh huh? 20:37:48 what's not clear about what I said? 20:37:57 "who you ask" and clear prima facie seem rather contradictory 20:38:05 I think there was a missing "not" 20:38:06 oops 20:38:12 * Can anyone say where there is an archive of logs of this IRC channel? 20:38:19 s/should/shouldn't/ 20:38:22 it was in the topic once... 20:38:29 PatrickDFIon, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ 20:39:00 anne42 has changed the topic to: HTML WG | logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ 20:39:43 anne42, wonderful. Thanks a lot. 20:41:11 I am suprised that the design principles are not mostly treated like 'Mom and apple pie' statements. That is they are general exhortations that suggest a direction but are not rules, and are often so vague as to need interpretation immediately. As such a collection, the write-up was really rather good. 20:47:25 schepers: I think part of taking them to W3C Note status would be to clarify and add examples 20:47:35 schepers: AWWW is in fact pretty subjective 20:48:15 schepers: for instance, there seem to be widely varying interpretations of what "Orthogonal Specifications" means 20:49:55 You shouldn't write specifications with the text rotated by 45 degrees? 20:50:31 anne42 has joined #html-wg 20:50:57 "URI Opacity" is also somewhat subject to interpretation 20:52:36 Testin_this has joined #html-wg 20:52:58 Can an example of an interpretation of "Orthogonal Specifications" which does not amount to meaning 'moving in independent dimensions' be given, please? 20:53:27 complementary but independent 20:53:39 and not conflicting 20:54:26 Not sure how much specs are really orthogonal though 20:54:57 So in different and disjoint regions of the same dimensions? That would indeed suggest the choice of the geometrical epithet orthogonal wasn't quite right. 20:56:16 the specific example they give is of the HTML spec explicitly specifying something that they also expected to be in the HTTP spec, which HTTP then dropped 20:56:16 s/dimensions/parameterized space/ 20:56:29 -MikeSmith 20:57:10 MikeSmith, trying to drive up phone bills? 20:57:21 note however that SVG 1.1 redefines the syntax of some CSS properties in a way that was maybe at one point expected to be done in CSS too, and The Director did not consider this a violation of orthogonality 20:57:42 oops 20:57:50 (redefines by allowing them to lack units where CSS requires units and would require properties without units to be ignored) 20:58:11 so this is why I say it is open to many interpretations 20:59:36 -mikko_honkala 21:00:14 schepers_ has joined #html-wg 21:00:26 Zakim, who is here? 21:00:26 On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a 21:00:27 On IRC I see schepers_, anne42, PatrickDFIon, Zeros, loic, Hixie, hyatt, heycam, mw22, primal1, Zakim, polin8, olli, Voluminous, dbaron, JacksonW, hasather, MikeSmith, mjs, edas, 21:00:31 ... gavin_, gavin, chaals, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, karl, tH, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, martijn, citoyen, 21:00:34 ... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent 21:00:49 ding! 21:01:11 The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time. 21:01:14 The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time. 21:01:26 Zakim, who is talking? 21:01:42 anne42, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 21:02:42 Zakim, telcon ended 21:02:45 I don't understand 'telcon ended', anne42 21:02:55 Zakim, who's on the phone? 21:02:57 On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a 21:03:02 Zakim, drop MikeSmith.a 21:03:02 MikeSmith.a is being disconnected 21:03:04 -MikeSmith.a 21:03:10 Zakim, drop ??P13 21:03:10 ??P13 is being disconnected 21:03:11 HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended 21:03:12 Attendees were PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson, 21:03:15 ... TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa 21:03:33 Zakim, bye 21:03:33 Zakim has left #html-wg 21:04:19 friendly bot 21:05:56 it requires silly things like ? at the end of questions... 21:06:08 but in general it works fairly well 21:07:18 kingryan has joined #html-wg 21:07:30 Was it originally designed, or has it just grown all the features that people want to make use of? 21:08:25 All I know is that it was made to assist telcons 21:08:42 It might be patchable too, but I'm not entirely sure about that 21:12:05 zdenko has joined #html-wg 21:17:20 IceGuest_7 has joined #html-wg 21:25:59 zdenko has joined #html-wg 21:26:46 zdenko_ has joined #html-wg 21:27:48 Philip`, definitely grown. 21:27:59 Ralph adds a new feature whenever he finds time to hack on it. 21:33:40 Where is the telecon being logged to? 21:34:15 RRSAgent, pointer? 21:34:15 See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T21-34-15 21:34:53 thanks 21:52:10 myakura has joined #html-wg 22:10:52 hmm, eight days since my first email to the list, and just now received my first spam on that (never before existing) email address. 22:15:03 DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ 22:50:37 Ashe has joined #html-wg 22:57:48 hasather has left #html-wg 23:11:26 mjs has joined #html-wg 23:19:24 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 23:39:39 was he offended by something? 23:49:17 heycam has joined #html-wg 23:55:58 heycam has joined #html-wg