IRC log of dawg on 2007-04-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:22:55 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:22:55 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc

14:23:02 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be DAWG

14:23:02 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:23:19 [LeeF]

Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly

14:23:25 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

14:23:27 [LeeF]

Scribe: SimonR

14:23:37 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0026.html

14:23:49 [LeeF]

LeeF has changed the topic to: "RDF Data Access Working Group - Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0026.html"

14:24:01 [LeeF]

LeeF has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Working Group - Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0026.html

14:24:31 [LeeF]

Regrets: PatH

14:24:38 [LeeF]

agenda + convene

14:24:40 [LeeF]

agenda + actions

14:24:46 [chimezie]

Hey AndyS: yes :)

14:24:50 [LeeF]

agenda + Chimezie

14:24:57 [LeeF]

you even get your own agenda item :)

14:25:07 [LeeF]

agenda + LC comments

14:25:27 [LeeF]

agenda + Leading digits in prefixed names

14:25:30 [LeeF]

agenda + test suite

14:25:32 [LeeF]

agenda + towards cr

14:25:35 [LeeF]

agenda + www 2007

14:25:43 [LeeF]

A deceptively long agenda.

14:25:52 [LeeF]

(Or decepively short? whichever.)

14:26:12 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:26:19 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:26:27 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge is LeeF, EliasT

14:26:27 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'IBMCambridge is LeeF, EliasT', LeeF

14:26:37 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge holds LeeF, EliasT

14:26:37 [Zakim]

+LeeF, EliasT; got it

14:26:41 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:26:50 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:26:52 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P8 is me

14:26:52 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:27:15 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:27:22 [SimonR]

Zakim, ??P9 is me

14:27:22 [Zakim]

+SimonR; got it

14:27:46 [Zakim]

+Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:28:23 [chimezie]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:28:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], AndyS, SimonR, Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:28:24 [Zakim]

[IBMCambridge] has LeeF, EliasT

14:29:06 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:29:09 [jeen]

zakim, ??P11 is me

14:29:09 [Zakim]

+jeen; got it

14:29:49 [LeeF]

ericP?

14:35:27 [Zakim]

+ +007383345aaaa

14:35:33 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:35:33 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from LeeF]

14:35:53 [LeeF]

April 10 minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/att-0012/2007-04-10-dawg-minutes.html

14:35:54 [SimonR]

+regrets PatH

14:36:04 [iv_an_ru]

Zakim, +007383345aaaa is me

14:36:04 [Zakim]

+iv_an_ru; got it

14:36:25 [LeeF]

April 17 minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/17-dawg-minutes.html

14:36:29 [AndyS]

AndyS sent regrets for April 17

14:36:53 [SimonR]

Minutes approved and seconded by Jeen.

14:37:37 [SimonR]

(retroactively, add AndyS's regrets!)

14:38:08 [SimonR]

Next meeting 2007-May-1. Scribe volunteer: Jeen.

14:38:13 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:38:13 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

14:38:14 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:38:15 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:38:15 [Zakim]

2. actions [from LeeF]

14:38:16 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "actions" taken up [from LeeF]

14:38:23 [Zakim]

+ericP

14:38:29 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to try running DanC's comment-tracking script(s) [DONE]

14:38:52 [LeeF]

ACTION: jeen to go through and identify out-of-date tests that shouldn't be migrated to data-r2 (after ericP commits batch updates to tests) [DONE]

14:39:29 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE]

14:39:41 [LeeF]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES]

14:39:52 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES]

14:40:04 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES]

14:40:35 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [CONTINUES]

14:40:49 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES]

14:41:01 [LeeF]

agenda + application/sparql-query

14:41:07 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [CONTINUES]

14:41:20 [LeeF]

ACTION: jeen to mark these 22 approved tests as approved [DONE]

14:41:50 [LeeF]

agenda + langMatches

14:41:54 [SimonR]

LeeF: Any additions to the agenda? EricP: langMatches needs to be added.

14:42:12 [SimonR]

LeeF: We have a new member, Chime.

14:42:13 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:42:13 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

14:42:14 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:42:15 [Zakim]

3. Chimezie [from LeeF]

14:42:20 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:42:20 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Chimezie" taken up [from LeeF]

14:42:42 [Souri]

Souri has joined #dawg

14:42:48 [SimonR]

Chime's intro: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0021.html

14:43:03 [AndyS]

Hi there!

14:43:12 [Souri]

Sorry, I am late.

14:43:20 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:43:20 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

14:43:21 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:43:22 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

14:43:30 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 5

14:43:30 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Leading digits in prefixed names" taken up [from LeeF]

14:44:06 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0014.html Alan Ruttenberg's message

14:44:10 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:44:19 [iv_an_ru]

No problem for me and no preferences, so decide as it

14:44:42 [SimonR]

LeeF: The situation is different from how it appears in the agenda. Alan's message in the comments list asks whether digits might be allowed immediately to the right of the : in SPARQL qnames.

14:45:16 [jeen]

example: foo:1bar

14:45:36 [SimonR]

LeeF: Concerned about schedule and hesitant and anything that risks it. However, have been advised that might be able to pass it without requiring a new Last Call.

14:45:37 [chimezie]

Support for syntax beyond QNames towards CURIEs (perhaps) seems like a good idea to me (niavely WRT schedule)

14:45:53 [iv_an_ru]

Alan uses Virtuoso so I'm biased and I'll vote for a decision that is most convenient for Alan :)

14:46:09 [SimonR]

LeeF: Would like to gauge the technical merit with the WG.

14:46:58 [SimonR]

I'd provisionally oppose it because it can't be serialized into RDF/XML.

14:47:39 [chimezie]

Doesn't have to depend on CURIEs per say

14:49:10 [chimezie]

+q

14:49:17 [LeeF]

ack chimezie

14:49:27 [AndyS]

Only issue I can see is around "ex:2" which is (now) two tokens and becomes one but I think that still only turns illegal syntax into legal. I can't find a legal to illegal query transformation.

14:49:48 [SimonR]

Chime: URLs that have escape characters that aren't allowed at the end of a qname. E.g. %

14:49:51 [chimezie]

% characters

14:50:18 [chimezie]

<urn:foo:bar/Base%20Uri>

14:50:27 [ericP]

<http://example.org/foo.html#xpointer(blahblahblah)>

14:50:42 [chimezie]

assuming base of <urn:foo:bar/Base> what is the QName

14:50:43 [ericP]

i.e. all of xpointer has this problem

14:51:41 [LeeF]

AndyS: We call them "prefixed name" because they are not the same as XML QNames

14:51:44 [SimonR]

AndyS: Prefer not to mention qnames; should rather talk of prefixed names.

14:52:11 [SimonR]

LeeF, I'm happy to have a safety net. ;)

14:53:40 [LeeF]

SimonR: If we have a CONSTRUCT template with one of these, then it can't be serialized into RDF/XML

14:53:44 [LeeF]

AndyS: We're already in that situation though

14:54:54 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:54:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], AndyS, SimonR, Chimezie_Ogbuji, jeen, iv_an_ru, ericP, ??P16

14:54:56 [Zakim]

[IBMCambridge] has LeeF, EliasT

14:55:04 [LeeF]

Souri, are you on the phone?

14:55:12 [Souri]

yes

14:55:21 [LeeF]

zakim, ??P16 is Souri

14:55:21 [Zakim]

+Souri; got it

14:56:05 [chimezie]

The workaround (for the query author) ofcourse, is to use the expanded form

14:56:17 [LeeF]

Or to use BASE sometimes? :)

14:56:39 [iv_an_ru]

Expanded forms result in too much typos :|

14:57:06 [SimonR]

LeeF: Seems to be enough support to go ahead; will consult Ivan and see about getting it on next week's agenda.

14:57:12 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

14:57:12 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

14:57:13 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:57:14 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

14:57:16 [LeeF]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:57:16 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "LC comments" taken up [from LeeF]

14:57:27 [SimonR]

AndyS: EricP, do you have any ideas about the politics around CURIEs? EricP: Nope!

14:57:28 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 6

14:57:28 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "test suite" taken up [from LeeF]

14:58:08 [SimonR]

AndyS: Not in favor of mentioning CURIEs; just modify our own definitions to be more accommodating.

14:58:39 [SimonR]

Jeen: The tests we marked approved have been officially marked. Also, sent an email:

14:58:44 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0028.html

14:59:33 [SimonR]

Jeen: ... went through the tests to see what the status was, marked them all as out of data, already moved, to be moved/examined.

15:00:05 [SimonR]

Jeen: Most interesting ones are the tests regarding sorting, and i18n.

15:00:39 [SimonR]

Jeen: All need to be eyeballed and have judgements made about whether to discard, rewrite, etc.

15:01:00 [AndyS]

q+ to ask about overall coverage

15:01:08 [LeeF]

ack AndyS

15:01:10 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask about overall coverage

15:01:20 [SimonR]

AndyS: How much coverage do we have over the spec?

15:02:22 [SimonR]

Jeen: In the new suite, nowhere near full coverage yet. Still many of the old tests are close to up-to-date; once those are moved, good coverage of the inportant features of the language. Most doubtful area is RDF semantics, as a result of major editorial changes.

15:02:51 [SimonR]

LeeF: Inquires after yacker's potential...?

15:03:14 [SimonR]

EricP: Hoping to be able to run yacker, then XQuery to automate much of this.

15:03:23 [ericP]

<tests><test name='...'>... xml tree for test </test><test ...

15:04:09 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0018.html 4 regex tests

15:04:37 [SimonR]

LeeF: We have the 4 regex tests above validated by several sources. Any else had a look at these?

15:04:46 [SimonR]

(silence)

15:04:54 [LeeF]

PROPOSE to approve the 4 tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007AprJun/0018.html

15:04:58 [LeeF]

ericP: second

15:05:07 [LeeF]

resolved.

15:05:18 [SimonR]

approved with no objections or abstentions.

15:05:19 [iv_an_ru]

They were running by my atumated test suite so they'e OK for me. But I did not even look at them by eyes.

15:05:19 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved

15:05:32 [LeeF]

zakim, agenda?

15:05:32 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:

15:05:34 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

15:05:37 [Zakim]

6. test suite [from LeeF]

15:05:39 [Zakim]

7. towards cr [from LeeF]

15:05:40 [Zakim]

8. www 2007 [from LeeF]

15:05:42 [Zakim]

9. application/sparql-query [from LeeF]

15:05:44 [Zakim]

10. langMatches [from LeeF]

15:05:45 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:05:45 [Zakim]

agendum 6 closed

15:05:46 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:05:47 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

15:05:51 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 10

15:05:52 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "langMatches" taken up [from LeeF]

15:06:06 [SimonR]

LeeF: EricP, langMatches?

15:06:10 [jeen]

Zakim, mute me

15:06:10 [Zakim]

jeen should now be muted

15:07:29 [SimonR]

EricP: Jeremy Carroll points out that originally RFC 3066, now supplanted by 4647. We forgot to specify which one in the spec. Basic and extended language codes make a difference. Do we want to identify basic, but also have tests prohibiting extended langMatches?

15:08:08 [SimonR]

AndyS: The differences are quite obscure, related to the script a language is in.

15:09:16 [SimonR]

LeeF: Seems like a good thing to test, but we're not obligated to do so.

15:09:34 [SimonR]

EricP: Favors testing it.

15:09:50 [SimonR]

LeeF: Invites Eric to write up a test for it. EricP: Okay.

15:10:09 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching

15:10:12 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Apr/0023.html

15:12:07 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:12:07 [Zakim]

agendum 10 closed

15:12:08 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:12:09 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

15:12:14 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 9

15:12:14 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "application/sparql-query" taken up [from LeeF]

15:12:21 [EliasT]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-desc-comments/2007Apr/0001.html

15:14:06 [SimonR]

EliasT: WSDL WG suggested that we propose our own non-XML extension. They wanted to know whether we wanted to raise an issue about it; we didn't want to hold them up.

15:14:28 [SimonR]

LeeF: Guesses we'll probably not pursue this for lack of motivation.

15:14:57 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:14:57 [Zakim]

agendum 9 closed

15:14:58 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:15:00 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

15:15:09 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 8

15:15:09 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "www 2007" taken up [from LeeF]

15:15:16 [SimonR]

ACTION: EliasT or LeeF to reply to Bjoern w.r.t. application/sparql-query

15:15:32 [SimonR]

I'm definitely not going to be there.

15:15:40 [iv_an_ru]

I'm at www2007 iff I get visa.

15:15:45 [jeen]

not me unfortunately

15:15:55 [Souri]

*not* me

15:16:01 [SimonR]

EliasT won't be.

15:16:13 [SimonR]

LeeF and EricP for certain, Ivan a possibility.

15:16:29 [iv_an_ru]

Orri Erling is there for sure.

15:16:42 [LeeF]

zakim, close this agendum

15:16:42 [Zakim]

agendum 8 closed

15:16:43 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:16:44 [Zakim]

4. LC comments [from LeeF]

15:16:51 [SimonR]

LeeF: Prefer not to miss a week this close to the finish line, so will have a telecon as usual.

15:17:22 [LeeF]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html last call comment tracking

15:17:42 [SimonR]

LeeF: Shows which threads are closed, waiting, contact points, etc.

15:18:02 [jeen]

nice and short, that overview

15:20:02 [SimonR]

LeeF: Coordination group notes that given the history of this group, ought to review comments from previous LC and see whether they should be reopened. Awaiting sufficient insomnia to tackle that....

15:21:44 [SimonR]

AndyS: Re Perez et al's work on SPARQL semantics, thinks it was cited in the informative sections of the document.

15:23:23 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the FROM * / FROM NAMED * thread as [CLOSED]

15:23:39 [SimonR]

Chime: Satisfied with the response to his LC comment -- LeeF to officially reply and close it.

15:26:32 [SimonR]

LeeF: Going forward, resolve the qname thing, seem to have responded to all the LC comments. We have a good shot about being ready to propose the move to CR next week or two.

15:27:19 [SimonR]

LeeF: Any further issues? EricP: RIF Core went to WD1. Anyone want to look at this?

15:28:56 [SimonR]

Chime: Might be interested in looking at it if it was clear what the relevance was....

15:29:21 [SimonR]

Chime is curious enough to give it a look, but would like guidance on what to look for.

15:29:37 [AndyS]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-core/

15:30:10 [SimonR]

The relationship between RIF and DAWG is *probably* similar to SPARQL and extended entailment regimes like OWL, etc.

15:30:20 [SimonR]

ADJOURNED 15:30Z

15:30:22 [jeen]

zakim, unmute me

15:30:22 [Zakim]

jeen should no longer be muted

15:31:21 [Zakim]

-jeen

15:31:44 [SimonR]

Could someguru make the draft minutes for me?

15:31:45 [Zakim]

-ericP

15:31:46 [Zakim]

-Chimezie_Ogbuji

15:31:47 [Zakim]

-[IBMCambridge]

15:31:49 [Zakim]

-Souri

15:31:49 [Zakim]

-iv_an_ru

15:32:11 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:32:23 [LeeF]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:32:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-minutes.html LeeF

15:32:29 [LeeF]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:32:30 [SimonR]

Ta, Lee.

15:32:38 [LeeF]

should be good to go in a bit, once everyting propagates

15:32:40 [LeeF]

np, Simon

15:32:52 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please leave

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-actions.rdf :

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to try running DanC's comment-tracking script(s) [DONE] [1]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-38-29

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeen to go through and identify out-of-date tests that shouldn't be migrated to data-r2 (after ericP commits batch updates to tests) [DONE] [2]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-38-52

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to respond http://www.w3.org/mid/4617D68D.4010608@hp.com [DONE] [3]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-39-29

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [CONTINUES] [4]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-39-41

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to get in touch with SteveH re: setting up an environment to generate an Overview page for tests in data-r2 a la http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/ [CONTINUES] [5]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-39-52

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP, jeen, or LeeF to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README with info on possible results format and on changes to manifest and test vocabularies [CONTINUES] [6]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-40-04

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to respond to Jeremy Carroll's comments re: langMatches [CONTINUES] [7]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-40-35

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [CONTINUES] [8]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-40-49

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [CONTINUES] [9]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-41-07

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeen to mark these 22 approved tests as approved [DONE] [10]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T14-41-20

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the 4 regex tests approved [11]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T15-05-19-1

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to write a test showing that langMatches doens't do extended matching [12]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T15-10-09

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EliasT or LeeF to reply to Bjoern w.r.t. application/sparql-query [13]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T15-15-16

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to mark the FROM * / FROM NAMED * thread as [CLOSED] [14]

15:32:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-dawg-irc#T15-23-23

15:32:53 [SimonR]

Enjoy the conference! :)

15:33:37 [Zakim]

-SimonR

15:33:38 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

15:33:39 [Zakim]

Attendees were LeeF, EliasT, AndyS, SimonR, Chimezie_Ogbuji, jeen, iv_an_ru, ericP, Souri