IRC log of xproc on 2007-04-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:12 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:57:14 [Zakim]
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14:57:46 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc WG
14:58:01 [alexmilowski]
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14:58:06 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:58:06 [Norm]
Date: 19 Apr 2007
14:58:06 [Norm]
14:58:06 [Norm]
Meeting number: 64, T-minus 28 weeks
14:58:06 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:58:07 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:58:09 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:58:14 [Norm]
Regrets: Paul, Andrew, Henry
15:00:23 [Norm]
zakim, this is xproc
15:00:23 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM
15:00:26 [Norm]
rrsagent, pointer?
15:00:26 [RRSAgent]
15:00:32 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alex_Milows, Norm
15:01:13 [Zakim]
15:01:26 [Norm]
zakim, ??P13 is rlopes
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:02:01 [Norm]
15:02:01 [Zakim]
15:03:39 [richard]
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15:04:02 [Norm]
Regrets: Paul, Andrew, Henry, Mohamed
15:04:15 [Norm]
MSM, are you planning to attend the XProc call today?
15:04:50 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alex_Milows, Norm, rlopes, Alessandro_Vernet
15:06:40 [Zakim]
15:06:42 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:06:42 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:06:54 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Alex, Rui, Alessandro, Richard
15:06:59 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:06:59 [Norm]
15:07:05 [Norm]
15:07:10 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:07:10 [Norm]
15:07:14 [Norm]
15:07:18 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 26 Apr 2007
15:07:28 [Norm]
No regrets given
15:07:41 [Norm]
Topic: Handling non-XML serializations
15:08:25 [Norm]
Norm: I think this has two parts: final result from the pipeline, but we also have the question of what, for example, an XSLT component should do if its output is text.
15:09:15 [Norm]
Alex: I have a simple requirement to have a declaration in the pipeline document of how the author would like the results to be serialized.
15:09:31 [Norm]
...I don't know where we should put that, in the syntax, but that's what I need.
15:09:52 [Norm]
...This is like the XSLT transform situation which has an xsl:output declaration.
15:10:13 [Norm]
...I want to replace an XSLT transformation with a pipeline and I want to make sure that the output is serialized the same way.
15:10:34 [Norm]
Norm: So you don't want to be able to track what the XSLT said.
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15:10:56 [Norm]
Alex: I think we have a story there. To be consistent, the shortest answer is that we say that XML documents come out on the output port.
15:11:52 [Norm]
Norm: the outputs of an XSLT processor aren't serizlied.
15:12:03 [Norm]
Richard: Not in your implementation. I think we should be agnostic about this.
15:12:08 [Norm]
...The output you get is the output you get.
15:12:24 [Norm]
Alex: But implementations can do the right thing if they know what the output should be.
15:12:53 [Norm]
Alex: I'd like to be able to allow an author to express the serialization of a pipeline result.
15:13:04 [Norm]
...We could declare that out-of-scope and be done.
15:13:30 [Norm]
Richard: I don't mind the pipeine saying somewhere that it's output is HTML, but I hope you're not suggesting that the pipeline should be required to produce HTML if the last step doesn't produce HTML.
15:13:40 [Norm]
Alex: No, it's just a declaration of intent.
15:14:24 [Norm]
Richard: If I write a pipeline and say the output is HTML and the last thing is an XSLT step,then you have to say it's HTML there too.
15:14:28 [Norm]
Alex: We have to clarify that.
15:14:53 [Norm]
Norm: I think they're independent.
15:15:44 [Norm]
Richard: I had thought that if the last step happened to not produce XML output then as a special case that's ok.
15:16:23 [Norm]
Norm: That's not what I thought.
15:16:56 [Norm]
Richard: The pipeline has to know every kind of output.
15:17:01 [Norm]
Alex: No it doesn't, it's either XML or it isn't.
15:17:02 [Zakim]
15:17:15 [Norm]
Richard: Suppose I write an addon component that produces foo output.
15:17:31 [Norm]
Norm: It crashes and burns.
15:17:42 [Zakim]
15:17:45 [Norm]
Alex: The constraint on output ports says you have to produce (a sequence of) XML documents.
15:17:49 [rlopes]
Zakim, ? is me
15:17:49 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:18:09 [Norm]
Richard: So who does produce XSLT?
15:18:12 [Zakim]
15:18:20 [Norm]
Alex: The way it works in JAXP depends on how you invoke the transform.
15:18:59 [Norm]
15:19:24 [Zakim]
15:19:32 [rlopes]
Zakim: [ is me
15:19:38 [rlopes]
Zakim, [ is me
15:19:38 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:20:23 [Norm]
Norm: I thought you'd either serialize with a component or the serialization would be an implementation-dependent feature.
15:20:51 [Norm]
Alex: What about a separate document that specifies the pairings.
15:21:56 [Norm]
Richard: I expect people to run things from the command line, I'd expect to have command line arguments that specified those things.
15:22:10 [Norm]
...It sounds like what Alex is asking for is the equivalent of standardizing the command line arguments.
15:22:16 [Norm]
...I think that's something we should leave to the implementations.
15:23:08 [Norm]
Norm: XSLT serializes, we don't.
15:23:17 [Norm]
Alex: I think the XSLT spec says, "if you serialize..."
15:23:45 [Norm]
Richard: You're drawing the parallel with XSLT so the place to put the hint would be in the pipeline document.
15:23:55 [Norm]
Alex: I'd prefer that it be in the pipeline document.
15:24:22 [Norm]
Richard: This is something the pipeline author chooses.
15:24:30 [Norm]
Alex: Right
15:26:31 [Norm]
Norm: So we're thinking of putting this the whole xsl:output thing in XProc
15:27:03 [Norm]
Norm: And what about character maps, how far are we going to go?
15:27:38 [Norm]
Alex: I think we'd want to support all the serialization features of XSLT 2.0/XQuery 1.0 serialization.
15:27:51 [Norm]
Richard: I don't want to implement all of that stuff.
15:28:14 [Norm]
Alex: But it's a slippery slope. Once you start writing stuff to disk you wind up here.
15:30:17 [Norm]
Richard: Not if we don't support XSLT 2.0 serialization
15:30:29 [Norm]
...XSLT 1.0 was quite useful without having any of that stuff in it.
15:32:10 [Norm]
Norm: Maybe p:store should be optional.
15:32:31 [Norm]
Alessandro: Can we have two store components, one the XSLT 1.0 way, one the XSLT 2.0 way.
15:32:49 [Norm]
Alex: I think we should treat serialization as a feature.
15:33:27 [Norm]
Richard: I think that if we allow all these complicated serializations then we don't want to reinvent the wheel. But I also think this should be no-more required than XSLT 2.0.
15:33:57 [Norm]
Norm: Maybe we need p:store to store XML and an optional p:serialize to do all sorts of XSLT 2.0-style goo.
15:34:20 [Norm]
Richard: It can be one component with a parameter.
15:34:34 [Norm]
...that you're only required to support certain values of.
15:34:52 [Norm]
Alex: I like the idea of having a serialization feature like XSLT 2.
15:35:01 [Norm]
Norm: I think that's a V2 feature.
15:35:37 [Norm]
Alex: We have use cases that require producing HTML.
15:36:27 [Norm]
Norm: Can we get away with a serialization feature like XSLT *1.0*
15:36:53 [Norm]
Alex: The feature I added to p:store was just to say "method".
15:37:50 [Norm]
Norm: I wonder if Alex you'd be willing to write this up as a more concrete proposal and send it out in mail.
15:37:54 [Norm]
Alex: I can do that.
15:38:04 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to construct a proposal for adding a serialization feature to XProc.
15:38:34 [Norm]
Topic: Obstacles to Last Call?
15:39:07 [Norm]
Editorial notes from the spec:
15:39:24 [Norm]
When/how is XML well-formedness checked?
15:39:49 [Norm]
Errors in try/catch
15:40:01 [Norm]
Rui: We have to define the error vocabulary
15:40:28 [Norm]
We have to do a better job of define the vocabularies for the other components.
15:41:02 [Norm]
Can anyone think of anything else?
15:41:42 [Norm]
Alex: We need to convince ourselves that we have met all our use cases.
15:42:20 [Norm]
Norm: So let's get those things taken care of!
15:42:39 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to draft something for the error vocabulary.
15:42:59 [Norm]
Topic: Review of the step library
15:43:03 [Norm]
15:43:27 [alexmilowski]
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15:43:38 [Norm]
Alex: The first is subsequence.
15:44:41 [Norm]
Alex: I added the $p:position variable.
15:44:54 [Norm]
Norm: Do we want this to be an XPath extension function?
15:45:26 [Norm]
Alex: I think if you look at the specs for XPath, it allows this conceptually.
15:45:56 [Norm]
...An extension function is harder to implement.
15:46:50 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, we can try the variable.
15:47:47 [Norm]
Alex: Then there's include-last, exclude-last
15:47:54 [Norm]
Norm: Why not include-last=yes/no
15:48:30 [Norm]
Alex: The semantics are more complicated.
15:49:38 [Norm]
Some discussion of the semantics
15:49:52 [Norm]
Norm: So include-last would throw away everything except the last?
15:50:06 [Norm]
Alex: Err, this is underspecified, isn't it?
15:51:37 [Norm]
Norm: I like Mohamed's suggestion, head to return the first 'n'; tail, to return the last 'n', and a subsequence.
15:51:49 [Norm]
s/subsequence/subsequence that tests./
15:53:50 [Norm]
15:57:28 [Norm]
Alex summarizes the changes: p:store, p:validate-relax-ng, p:xquery
15:57:38 [Norm]
Alex: I want to clean up the whole definition of the spec definition elements.
15:57:49 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I'll work on that. It's a stylesheet issue.
15:59:21 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:59:24 [Norm]
15:59:30 [Norm]
15:59:32 [Zakim]
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:35 [Zakim]
15:59:36 [Zakim]
15:59:37 [Zakim]
15:59:38 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:39 [Zakim]
Attendees were Alex_Milows, Norm, rlopes, Alessandro_Vernet, richard, [IPcaller]
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16:17:02 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:17:13 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate Norm
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20:19:39 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
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I see 2 open action items saved in :
20:19:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to construct a proposal for adding a serialization feature to XProc. [1]
20:19:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
20:19:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to draft something for the error vocabulary. [2]
20:19:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in