IRC log of xhtml on 2007-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:57 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:01:04 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
14:01:08 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM
14:01:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh
14:01:15 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:17 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:19 [Zakim]
14:01:39 [Steven]
Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
14:01:44 [Steven]
Chair: Steven
14:01:58 [ShaneM]
There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45
14:02:18 [Steven]
14:02:30 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda:
14:03:04 [Steven]
Regrets: Rich, Yam
14:03:29 [Steven]
-> Previous
14:04:48 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
14:04:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:04:57 [Steven]
xhtml Mark
14:04:59 [Zakim]
+ +44.207.689.aaaa
14:05:10 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am aaaa
14:05:10 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
14:06:19 [Zakim]
14:06:46 [Steven]
zakim, ??P28 is Alessio
14:06:46 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:10:16 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
14:10:18 [Steven]
Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects.
14:10:24 [Steven]
... I represent IWA here
14:10:40 [Steven]
... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2
14:10:47 [Steven]
... I have projects using SMIL
14:11:03 [Steven]
... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics
14:11:09 [Steven]
Steven: Welcome!
14:11:26 [ShaneM]
I nominate Steven as acting Chair
14:11:50 [ShaneM]
markbirbeck: second
14:14:11 [Steven]
Topic: Actions
14:14:32 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in
14:14:32 [Steven]]
14:14:37 [Steven]
-- continues
14:14:57 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa
14:14:57 [Steven]
driver [recorded in
14:14:57 [Steven]]
14:15:02 [Steven]
-- done]
14:15:09 [Steven]
14:16:38 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute
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inheritance rules. [recorded in
14:16:38 [Steven]]
14:16:41 [Steven]
- comtinues
14:16:47 [Steven]
14:16:57 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments
14:16:57 [Steven]
[recorded in]
14:17:02 [Steven]
-- continues
14:17:48 [Steven]
Topic: Media type issue
14:17:48 [Steven]
14:19:03 [Steven]
Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE as well
14:19:11 [Steven]
... and we are moving to Firefox
14:19:20 [Steven]
... we need an interim solution
14:19:36 [Steven]
Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about this page:
14:19:54 [Steven]
14:19:59 [alessio]
we could try to support correct visualization via scripting
14:20:02 [ShaneM]
something like that.
14:20:06 [Steven]
14:20:12 [Steven]
14:21:14 [Steven]
Alessio: We need a practical solution
14:21:21 [Steven]
... I want to promote these standards
14:22:18 [ShaneM]
we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html
14:22:51 [Steven]
Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how
14:22:58 [alessio]
14:23:11 [Steven]
Mark: THe browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml
14:23:23 [Steven]
Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end
14:23:29 [Steven]
14:24:19 [Steven]
My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml
14:24:31 [Steven]
So it's hard for me to test
14:24:57 [Steven]
Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate
14:25:12 [Steven]
... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html
14:26:08 [Steven]
Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation
14:26:40 [Steven]
Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html
14:26:47 [Steven]
Alessio: Yes, but only to IE
14:27:20 [Steven]
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14:27:45 [Steven]
Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top
14:27:54 [Steven]
Shane: It is not a simple problem
14:28:02 [Steven]
... I have spent days on this
14:28:23 [Steven]
... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it
14:28:29 [alessio]
Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG
14:29:14 [Steven]
ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps
14:29:37 [Steven]
Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either
14:29:41 [Steven]
Steven: We can work on that
14:29:56 [Steven]
Topic: [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document?
14:29:56 [Steven]
14:31:28 [Steven]
Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html
14:32:00 [ShaneM]
FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.
14:32:56 [Steven]
Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance
14:33:41 [Steven]
... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA
14:33:43 [alessio]
for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml
14:34:12 [Steven]
Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document
14:34:22 [alessio]
yes, I agree
14:34:31 [Steven]
... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance
14:35:03 [Steven]
Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules
14:36:39 [Steven]
Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML
14:37:04 [Steven]
... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least
14:37:27 [Steven]
... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused
14:37:31 [Steven]
... this is a non-argument
14:39:23 [Steven]
Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request
14:39:34 [Steven]
Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too
14:40:09 [Steven]
Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities
14:40:26 [ShaneM]
and that's a good reason too.
14:42:20 [Steven]
Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document
14:43:28 [Steven]
Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it
14:43:52 [Steven]
... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that
14:44:17 [Steven]
... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either
14:44:34 [Steven]
Mark: Why do we care about the aprsing?
14:44:42 [Steven]
14:44:49 [Steven]
SHane: Failure mode
14:44:52 [Steven]
14:45:01 [Steven]
Mark: Why do we care about that
14:45:27 [Steven]
Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid
14:45:38 [Steven]
14:46:27 [Steven]
Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does
14:46:32 [Steven]
Steven: We do say that
14:46:55 [Steven]
Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined
14:47:27 [Steven]
... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort
14:47:33 [Steven]
... why bother
14:47:33 [ShaneM]
Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content
14:47:46 [Steven]
Steven: Because XML says it should
14:48:07 [Steven]
14:49:24 [Steven]
Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer
14:49:46 [ShaneM]
we currently say this (in XHTML 2): #
14:49:46 [ShaneM]
14:49:46 [ShaneM]
The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML].
14:50:09 [alessio]
browser itself validates...
14:51:21 [Steven]
Steven: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice
14:51:59 [Steven]
... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about
14:52:36 [ShaneM]
Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.
14:52:43 [Steven]
Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want
14:53:41 [Steven]
Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs
14:55:03 [ShaneM]
For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.
14:55:36 [Steven]
Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype
14:55:53 [Steven]
... which includes the ability to handle />
14:57:30 [ShaneM]
ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1
14:57:37 [Zakim]
14:57:47 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: In the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST
14:57:55 [Steven]
14:58:17 [Zakim]
14:58:19 [Zakim]
14:58:20 [Steven]
14:58:21 [Zakim]
14:58:26 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:58:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio
14:58:37 [Steven]
rrsagen, make minutes
14:58:42 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:00:40 [alessio]
I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :)
15:01:33 [alessio]
bye all
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