IRC log of waf on 2007-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:10:59 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
00:11:08 [artb]
Meeting: WAF WG F2F Brisbane, AU
00:11:16 [artb]
Date: 18 April 2007
00:11:48 [artb]
00:12:04 [heycam]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
00:12:05 [Lachy]
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00:13:14 [marcsil]
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00:13:28 [artb]
Chair: Art
00:13:42 [artb]
Present: Art, Cam, Guido, Anne, Marcos, Lachlan
00:15:12 [Hixie]
00:15:34 [marcos]
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00:15:52 [artb]
hixie - can you join the W3C bridge?
00:16:20 [Hixie]
which code?
00:16:28 [artb]
00:16:43 [Zakim]
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00:16:52 [artb]
zakim, this is waf
00:16:52 [Zakim]
artb, I see IA_WAF(F2F)8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be waf".
00:17:07 [artb]
yeah, whatever, zakim :)
00:18:03 [Hixie]
Zakim, what is the number?
00:18:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Hixie.
00:18:08 [Hixie]
what's the phone number again?
00:18:14 [Hixie]
been so long i can't remember it anymore :-)
00:18:28 [artb]
+1 617 761 6200
00:18:30 [Hixie]
00:18:50 [Hixie]
Zakim, this is waf
00:18:50 [Zakim]
ok, Hixie; that matches IA_WAF(F2F)8:00PM
00:19:00 [Hixie]
Zakim, who is here?
00:19:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ian_Hickson
00:19:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see marcos, marcsil, Lachy, RRSAgent, artb, anne, heycam, schepers, dino, mikko, Hixie, trackbot
00:19:04 [Hixie]
Zakim, i am Ian_Hickson
00:19:04 [Zakim]
ok, Hixie, I now associate you with Ian_Hickson
00:20:23 [Zakim]
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00:26:35 [marcos]
scribe: Marcos
00:26:44 [marcos]
scribnick: marcos
00:26:55 [marcos]
00:27:51 [marcos]
00:28:28 [marcos]
Artb: I wanted to go through the three agenda items regarding to XBL
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00:38:16 [marcos]
Artb: I remember Jonas had made some comments about XBL.
00:38:19 [marcos]
Hixie: We havent recieved many comments yet, I would like to wait for more implementation experience and comments to come in and
00:38:20 [marcos]
then address them all at once.
00:38:22 [marcos]
Artb: Based on the comments, Will we have to go back to last call?
00:38:23 [marcos]
Hixie: we might have to go back to last call.
00:38:25 [marcos]
Artb: It sounds reasonable that we might have to go back to last call to address the comments.
00:38:27 [marcos]
Cam: it might be nice to start addressing some of the emails now.
00:38:30 [marcos]
Artb: what are your thoughts on going ahead and start responding to Jonas' comments, it might be good to keep the public list
00:38:32 [marcos]
00:38:34 [marcos]
Arb: where there any other comments apart from Jonas?
00:38:35 [marcos]
hixie: there were a
00:38:37 [marcos]
few comments from Anne, etc, but few other significant ones.. Jonas seems to be the only mayor person.
00:39:49 [xmarcos2]
Artb: I'd like to get a general idea about how we are going to do the test suite
00:40:39 [xmarcos2]
Hixie: I have 3 suggestions. It would be very helpful if the test suite followed the guidelines simply say if you have passed or failed within one second.
00:41:01 [Hixie]
00:41:08 [xmarcos2]
CSS guidelines for test suites
00:41:20 [artb]
s/guidelines/CSS WG's guidelines/
00:41:26 [Hixie]
00:43:14 [xmarcos2]
Hixie: those guidelines are quite useful. Hopefully we will get a large number of tests. The best way of getting lots of test is to open them up to the public. We are going to get lots of tests, so it's going to be hard to check them all so we might assume that they are valid until they are found to be otherwise by implementers.
00:43:51 [xmarcos2]
Artb: does anyone have any test suite experience they would like to share?
00:46:15 [xmarcos2]
Artb: regarding getting contributions from public, we need to find out if there are any W3C related issues (copyright). However, Ian, how do you think we could make this work?
00:47:17 [xmarcos2]
Hixie: We might need to appoint a point man. The thing is to start requesting tests. Implementer will probably contribute tests too as they need them regardless.
00:47:45 [xmarcos2]
Artb: I guess I would like to get some commitment on the creation of test from people from the Wg
00:49:12 [xmarcos2]
Anne: I might contribute, but not actively until there is an implementation.
00:49:27 [anne5]
(and even then I might not)
00:49:40 [Hixie]
yeah most people won't contribute until there are impls
00:49:51 [Hixie]
that's why i think impls will have to come first, and provide the first tests
00:49:54 [artb]
Marcos: Lachy and I have played around with Mikko's impl
00:50:12 [artb]
... it isn't complete but it has been helpful in the context of the Primer
00:52:23 [xmarcos2]
Artb: can I get a volunteer to think about the test suite template?
00:52:52 [artb]
ACTION: Cam and Lachy to create a test case template.
00:52:52 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Cam
00:54:02 [artb]
ACTION: McCormack work with Lachlan to create a test case template that makes sense for XBL2 test cases.
00:54:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-81 - Work with Lachlan to create a test case template that makes sense for XBL2 test cases. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2007-04-25].
00:54:09 [xmarcos2]
Hixie: the problem with XBL is that there are so many different ways of embedding it into different documents.
00:55:46 [xmarcos2]
Hixie: I think the best way to do the test suite would be to target different types of documents to cover a wide range of test cases.
00:56:19 [xmarcos2]
Artb: we could be looking at hundreds if not thousands of tests.
00:56:44 [xmarcos2]
MC: yes, the problem being that there is no one host language for XBL.
00:56:57 [xmarcos2]
00:59:11 [xmarcos2]
CM: it's might be best to just start some simple test cases in HTML as that might be the biggest use case for XBL.
00:59:30 [xmarcos2]
Artb: does anyone have anything else about the test suite?
00:59:36 [xmarcos2]
01:00:45 [xmarcos2]
Artb: lets talk about the potential implementations. We took a sample of potential implementers three months ago so it might be good to take another sample now.
01:00:56 [xmarcos2]
Mikko, you around?
01:00:59 [artb]
ACTION: Barstow contact Mikko to determine HUT implemenation plan for their JS-based XBL2 implementation
01:00:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-82 - Contact Mikko to determine HUT implemenation plan for their JS-based XBL2 implementation [on Arthur Barstow - due 2007-04-25].
01:01:40 [xmarcos2]
Artb: CM, have you got any plans to implement anything?
01:02:30 [heycam]
I have vague plans to convert the sXBL implementation in Batik to XBL 2.0, which maybe I'll do around the end of the year. It's not high on my list of priorities though.
01:02:49 [marcos]
Artb: does nokia have any plans?
01:02:57 [marcos]
GR: not at this point.
01:03:23 [marcos]
Artb: Anne, any plans from Opera?
01:03:28 [marcos]
Anne: no comment
01:03:30 [artb]
01:04:21 [marcos]
Artb: how about you Mark? is Microsoft interested in implementing?
01:04:41 [marcos]
MS: I really can't comment on if an when, but we are interested in it.
01:04:49 [anne5]
01:05:13 [marcos]
Marc, it's 30c today :D
01:05:51 [marcos]
Artb: Hixie, do you know if Mozilla is interested in implemented?
01:06:14 [marcos]
Hixie: they have the same position as microsoft...
01:07:12 [artb]
ACTION: Barstow ping Apple about their XBL2 implementation plans.
01:07:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-83 - Ping Apple about their XBL2 implementation plans. [on Arthur Barstow - due 2007-04-25].
01:07:15 [marcos]
Artb: Apple joined the WG recently, but we are unsure if they are interested in XBL
01:07:57 [marcos]
Artb: have you chatted with David Hyatt at all about XBL and gotten any comments?
01:08:16 [marcos]
Hixie: yes, Apple said it needed further reviewing
01:09:27 [marcos]
Artb: When is the candidate expiration period? Somewhere in September I think. However any chance of getting out of candidate by then is probably 0. Do you know what the effect of that might be in relation to the w3c?
01:11:53 [Zakim]
01:11:55 [Zakim]
01:12:20 [Zakim]
01:12:21 [Zakim]
IA_WAF(F2F)8:00PM has ended
01:12:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ian_Hickson
01:12:28 [marcos]
TOPIC: XBL2 Primer
01:24:29 [artb]
Present: Art, Anne, Guido, Cameron, Lachlan, Marcos, Marc (XBL2), Hixie (XBL2)
01:28:44 [anne5]
scribenick: anne5
01:28:51 [anne5]
MC: So...
01:29:03 [anne5]
MC: ... I contacted LH
01:30:33 [anne5]
MC: See
01:31:23 [anne5]
MC: Need to look at use cases on the web.
01:31:32 [anne5]
MC: Content reordering will likely be common
01:31:44 [anne5]
MC: Start the primer with that... demonstrates bindings
01:32:06 [anne5]
... should be simple enough and useful
01:33:25 [anne5]
GG: XBL might have use with Widgets. Making Ajax frameworks easier to use
01:33:50 [anne5]
MC: you have web development and there's web applications stuff like the Web 2.0 movement, libraries, blah
01:33:59 [anne5]
MC: start simple, move to app level
01:36:04 [anne5]
MC: [elaborates on the above e-mail]
01:39:53 [anne5]
AB: Why is reordering important?
01:40:08 [anne5]
MC: You might want to reorder content for mobile devices. etc.
01:40:22 [anne5]
GG: Does the author need to be involved?
01:40:33 [anne5]
AvK: yes
01:41:04 [anne5]
GG: CSS might be feasible as well
01:41:14 [anne5]
AvK: CSS doesn't allow reordering of actual elements though, like XBL
01:41:19 [anne5]
GG: Ah right, changing the tree-shape
01:47:47 [anne5]
[Some talk about how to use SVG to style elements through XBL, color pickers, sliders, progress bars, etc.]
01:48:48 [heycam]
ACTION: marcos to investigate a colour picker widget example (e.g. binding <input type=colorpicker>) for the xbl primer
01:48:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-84 - Investigate a colour picker widget example (e.g. binding <input type=colorpicker>) for the xbl primer [on Marcos Caceres - due 2007-04-25].
01:51:41 [Lachy]
could create an XBL reference like these
01:56:25 [anne5]
[Some discussion on XBL2 and HTML5.]
01:56:32 [anne5]
[And Web Forms 2]
02:07:42 [artb]
02:28:21 [artb]
ACTION: Marcos and Lachlan to have XBL2 Primer FPWD ready by July f2f meeting.
02:28:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - And Lachlan to have XBL2 Primer FPWD ready by July f2f meeting. [on Marcos Caceres - due 2007-04-25].
02:35:39 [artb]
rrsagent, make log public
02:35:47 [artb]
rrsagent, make minutes
02:35:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate artb
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04:44:35 [jcantera]
04:44:53 [jcantera]
are you mutted┬┐
04:45:43 [jcantera]
04:51:05 [anne5]
scribenick: anne
04:51:11 [anne5]
scribenick: anne5
04:51:33 [anne5]
AB: [explains history of web app delivery]
04:52:11 [anne5]
AB: charter expects a XUL-like language deliverable
04:52:18 [anne5]
AB: pushed by Nexaweb + Telefonica
04:53:18 [anne5]
AB: rest of the WG felt like the work should be about improving existing work as opposed to doing something new
04:53:28 [anne5]
AB: progress has been slow
04:55:23 [anne5]
AB: HTML, XHTML2 or DIAL might better address this stuff
04:55:44 [anne5]
s/might better/might be better to/
04:56:39 [anne5]
JC: 1. we recognize that this work is only driven by two companies in the WAF WG
04:56:59 [anne5]
JC: has been very difficult
04:57:10 [anne5]
JC: two companies is not enough
05:00:26 [anne5]
JC: 2. more companies should be involved
05:01:00 [anne5]
AB: do you have data that suggests that other members will actively participate in this work?
05:01:04 [anne5]
JC: not at the moment
05:04:00 [anne5]
Topic: charter update
05:04:19 [anne5]
AB: we need a charter update to more accurately reflect what we're doing
05:06:34 [anne5]
AB: Since only 2 of the 400 members are interested in the DFAUI deliverable we should really think about i
05:06:39 [anne5]
s/about i/about it/
05:07:53 [anne5]
JC: I agree that an XG might be a solution
05:08:06 [anne5]
JC: for the DFAUI work
05:08:55 [anne5]
JC: I don't think it's an issue that only a couple of companies are involved.
05:10:59 [anne5]
scribenick: marcos
05:12:43 [marcos]
AB: we want a charter that accurately reflects what we are doing. I think we should use the rechartering process to work out how to move the DFAUI forward. The good thing about doing this work in an incubator is that it provides a great deal of flexibility (ie, select your own chair, set your own timeframe).
05:13:14 [schepers_]
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05:14:01 [marcos]
AB: I guess it would be good for you guys to continue to look how specs at the w3c meet the use case and requirements of DFAUI to identify gaps.
05:16:58 [marcos]
JC: I don't see as realistic progressing the work in relation to HTML5 as HTML might be too basic for what we need.
05:22:02 [marcos]
MC: I don't see any use cases that can't be addressed by HTML5. I would like to see concrete evidence that HTML 5 is not already a DFAUI.
05:25:01 [marcos]
Artb: I'm suggesting that the DFAUI work move to an incubator group.
05:25:27 [marcos]
JC: I agree that that could be a solution we could explore.
05:26:48 [marcos] explains what is the process of an incubator group as he understands it...
05:28:36 [marcos]
Artb: the work under the incubator group could then delegate how the actual DFAUI could be progressed by exploring further what other working groups are doing and which groups could potentially meet the requirements of the DFAUI
05:30:01 [marcos] continues to explain what an Incubator group...
05:30:40 [marcos]
ACTION: Arthur Barstrow to talk to Chris Lilly about how we go through rechartering
05:30:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Barstrow to talk to Chris Lilly about how we go through rechartering [on Arthur Barstow - due 2007-04-25].
05:32:49 [marcos]
Artb: I've had to report to W3C management continuously that there has been no progress on the DFAUI and this may soon become a concern for the w3c.
05:35:56 [marcos]
JC: we should not make any decisions without Coach here.
05:36:02 [marcos]
AB: agreed
05:36:55 [marcos]
AB: I need to speak to Chris Lilly about the rechartering process and set up a teleconf so we can discuss how to best more this work forward
05:37:32 [marcos]
AB: without coach, my recommendation is that we don't review the DFAUI use case and reqs document
05:37:44 [marcos]
JC: agreed
05:38:40 [marcos]
JC: What do you need to start an incubator group?
05:38:51 [artb]
Incubator Group Activity:
05:40:40 [marcos]
AB: does anyone else have anything else regarding this topic?
05:41:23 [schepers]
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05:42:20 [marcos]
JC: I am a bit concerned about the timing.
05:42:36 [marcos]
AB: I will speak to Chris about the timing and get back to you.
05:43:26 [artb]
Topic XBL2 Primer
05:43:58 [artb]
JC: what is the status of the Primer?
05:44:20 [artb]
MC: Lachlan and I have some work to do.
05:44:43 [artb]
... We do not expect a FPWD until July or so
05:49:36 [Coach]
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05:51:08 [Coach]
anyone on?
05:51:24 [marcos]
05:51:31 [anne5]
DFAUI discussion just sort of ended
05:51:35 [Coach]
05:51:37 [Coach]
05:51:46 [Coach]
now i can go back to sleep now.
05:51:52 [marcos]
05:51:57 [marcos]
06:33:19 [artb]
scribe: Lachy
06:33:40 [Lachy]
GG: we've talked about the need for digitally signing widgets
06:35:01 [Lachy]
GG: proposal is based on XML Sig
06:35:42 [Lachy]
GG: Solution is capable of signing parts of a widget
06:35:52 [Lachy]
GG: May or may not be needed
06:36:23 [cwei]
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06:36:23 [Lachy]
GG: [shows examples]
06:36:56 [Lachy]
GG: more than one signature possible. e.g. author and distributor could each sign it separately
06:37:56 [Lachy]
GG: is that the way forward? If not, we may need another solution
06:38:43 [Lachy]
CM: Has it been compared with other signing techniques? e.g. Java JAR files
06:40:35 [Lachy]
MC: [describes Yahoo's technique]
06:41:49 [Lachy]
MC: This is just one option, there are other possibilities
06:42:31 [Lachy]
MC: currently having problems with signature authorities
06:43:02 [Coach]
isn't there going to be a discussion around DFAUI now (from 2am ET)?
06:43:51 [anne5]
It ended pretty much the first time you joined.
06:44:02 [anne5]
Jose was online back then as well and it was discussed with him.
06:44:13 [anne5]
We're now discussing signatures for Widgets.
06:44:27 [Coach]
oh...i thought it should start at 2am. and i was you were joking.
06:44:40 [Coach]
i thought you were joking.
06:45:48 [anne5]
I was not.
06:45:53 [Lachy]
[discussion of certificate authorities and public keys, and how they would work with widgets]
06:47:09 [Lachy]
Coach: it was supposed to start at 14:00 local time here in Brisbane, though it started at about 14:45
06:47:27 [anne5]
And it's now 16:47 local time fwiw.
06:48:21 [Lachy]
MC: We should probably recommend support for X509
06:49:33 [Lachy]
AvK: xml:id broke XML Canonicalisation
06:49:58 [Lachy]
AvK: XML Canoicalisation is being fixed
06:51:22 [Lachy]
MC: Use case for sig is that users need to be able to verify the distributor
06:52:00 [Lachy]
CM: Sigs have benefit of integrity checking
06:52:51 [Coach]
Coach has left #waf
06:56:54 [Lachy]
MC: This may not be as difficult as Yahoo!'s solution
06:57:30 [Lachy]
MC: Possibility that some things may not be signed
06:57:40 [Lachy]
GG: Should probably require everything to be signed
06:58:27 [Lachy]
AB: Any objections to this proposal?
06:59:31 [Lachy]
AvK: Integrating this and getting it to work may be difficult
07:01:13 [Lachy]
ACTION: Complete the proposal for widget signing
07:01:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Complete
07:01:25 [Lachy]
ACTION: Guido Complete the proposal for widget signing
07:01:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Complete the proposal for widget signing [on Guido Grassel - due 2007-04-25].
07:02:16 [Lachy]
AB: Let's diiscuss the Widgets spec and pick up where we left off
07:03:55 [Lachy]
AvK: The way the security model works has implications on how other things work
07:04:55 [anne5];%20charset=utf-8
07:06:41 [marcos]
07:08:53 [marcos]
07:10:23 [Lachy]
AvK: Probably want to be able to specify access rights and restrictions
07:11:34 [Lachy]
GG: Widgets can't have access to other widgets or the browser
07:12:02 [Lachy]
GG: Should be able to white/black listing
07:12:06 [Lachy]
... of domains
07:13:39 [Lachy]
AvK: a widget is just a special type of application, why should it have restrictions beyond those of other apps?
07:14:22 [Lachy]
GG: Widgets may request permission from users
07:14:34 [Lachy]
AvK: Users will just say ok without understanding the question
07:15:46 [Lachy]
AvK: Would be ok to be able to turn on/off network and/or file access
07:16:19 [Lachy]
AvK: [asks about Firefox Extensions security model]
07:19:38 [Lachy]
MC: White lists may just list malicious sites
07:21:07 [Lachy]
LH: author specified white lists can't work securely
07:22:11 [Lachy]
MC: UIs for requesting access from the user are confusing
07:32:19 [Lachy]
[current discussion being recorded in the issue list in the draft]
07:39:25 [Lachy]
[Discussing Widget Geometry]
07:40:02 [Lachy]
AvK: The WebAPI WG is specifying the Window object
07:40:52 [Lachy]
AB: Can we move the widget geometry to another spec?
07:41:05 [Lachy]
... like the Window API spec
07:41:27 [Lachy]
AvK: Could move it to HTML5
07:42:54 [Lachy]
[Discussion about whether or not we should require widgets to use HTML]
07:43:33 [Lachy]
AvK: We have to define how HTML works in a widget
07:43:47 [Lachy]
AvK: HTML and SVG will most likely be the dominant formats
07:44:09 [Lachy]
MC: Yahoo doesn't use HTML for their widgets
07:48:01 [Lachy]
AvK: We should definately use rel=widget
07:48:12 [Lachy]
AvK: The type attribute shouldn't be required
07:48:40 [Lachy]
MC: Why reference HTML5 instead of HTML4?
07:52:32 [Lachy]
LH: We could get away with referencing HTML4 for the link element
07:53:16 [artb]
Anne's input:
07:53:42 [Lachy]
07:53:51 [Lachy]
07:56:39 [Lachy]
[Anne is describing the proposal from Lachy and himself]
08:07:03 [heycam]
CM: rename description to desc, get its default value from the desc element if it's an svg main fil
08:07:06 [heycam]
08:09:52 [Lachy]
[some dispute about the proposed <index> element name]
08:10:09 [Lachy]
MC and AB like the idea of <main>
08:11:17 [Lachy]
AvK: <start>?
08:11:20 [Lachy]
LH: <default>?
08:11:21 [anne5]
I've proposed <init>, <start> and <index>
08:11:38 [Lachy]
AB: doesn't like <index>
08:11:49 [Lachy]
LH doesn't like naming debates
08:12:07 [anne5]
I don't like <default>
08:13:09 [Lachy]
AvK: I can't spell main
08:14:09 [artb]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:14:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate artb
08:15:33 [artb]
Present: Art, Anne, Guido, Cameron, Lachlan, Marcos, Marc_(XBL2), Hixie_(XBL2), Jose (DFAUI)
08:15:47 [anne5]
main is non-obvious and doesn't make much sense here
08:16:04 [artb]
RESOLUTION: use <start> rather than <index>
08:16:13 [artb]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:16:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate artb