IRC log of rdfa on 2007-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:00 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

12:58:00 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-irc

12:58:12 [Steven]

rssagent, make log public

12:58:20 [mhausenblas]

mhausenblas has joined #rdfa

12:58:22 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

12:58:30 [Steven]

zakim, this will be rdfa

12:58:30 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

12:58:45 [Steven]

Meeting: Weekly RDFa Taskforce teleconference

12:58:48 [Steven]

Chair: Ben

12:58:53 [Steven]

Regrets: Ralph

12:59:17 [wing]

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12:59:30 [wing]

zakim, code

12:59:30 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'code', wing

12:59:32 [wing]

zakim, code?

12:59:32 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), wing

12:59:59 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started

13:00:06 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas

13:00:40 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

13:00:44 [wing]

zakim, IBMCambridge is wing

13:00:44 [Zakim]

+wing; got it

13:00:44 [markbirbeck]

running a couple of minutes late....sorry

13:00:52 [markbirbeck]

be there shortly

13:01:31 [Zakim]

+McCarron

13:02:05 [mhausenblas]

zakim, who is on the call?

13:02:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see mhausenblas, wing, McCarron

13:02:10 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:02:19 [Simone]

Zakim, Ipcaller is me

13:02:19 [Zakim]

+Simone; got it

13:02:59 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:02:59 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:03:01 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:03:04 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:03:59 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

13:04:46 [Zakim]

-Simone

13:05:42 [Zakim]

+??P9

13:05:52 [Simone]

Zakim, P9 i ms

13:05:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'P9 i ms', Simone

13:05:59 [Simone]

Zakim, P9 is me

13:05:59 [Zakim]

sorry, Simone, I do not recognize a party named 'P9'

13:06:08 [Simone]

Zakim, ??P9 is me

13:06:08 [Zakim]

+Simone; got it

13:07:09 [mhausenblas]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/

13:08:49 [Zakim]

+MarkB

13:10:45 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:10:50 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

13:11:08 [wing]

elias should be along in a few minutes as well; he got stuck in traffic

13:11:18 [benadida]

zakim, pick a victim

13:11:18 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simone

13:11:39 [benadida]

zakim, pick a victim

13:11:39 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Steven

13:11:45 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

13:12:23 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0037.html

13:13:19 [Steven]

-> Previous minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0015.html

13:13:21 [mhausenblas]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/XMLLiteral an inital step XMLLiteral

13:13:39 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:13:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

13:13:54 [Steven]

Topic: Action items

13:14:19 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

13:14:24 [Steven]

-- Done

13:14:31 [Steven]

s/Done/Pending/

13:14:44 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]

13:14:51 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:15:00 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

13:15:02 [Steven]

--Done

13:15:07 [Steven]

s/--/-- /

13:15:16 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

13:15:25 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:15:37 [Steven]

ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]

13:15:41 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:15:51 [Steven]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

13:15:55 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:16:03 [Zakim]

+??P15

13:16:04 [Zakim]

-McCarron

13:16:05 [Steven]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:16:09 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:16:14 [ShaneM]

zakim, ??P15 is ShaneM

13:16:14 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

13:16:20 [Steven]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

13:16:27 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:16:38 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:16:40 [Steven]

-- Ongoing

13:16:49 [Steven]

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

13:17:07 [Steven]

-- Pending

13:17:20 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

13:17:31 [Steven]

-- Ongoing

13:18:14 [Steven]

Topic: Test cases

13:18:37 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

13:18:37 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

13:18:53 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0013 RDFa TC status

13:19:03 [Steven]

Mh: Still need some time to finalize

13:19:04 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0013 RDFa TC status

13:19:29 [Steven]

... happy for feedback

13:19:40 [Steven]

Ben: The partitioning is great

13:19:55 [Steven]

... great to partition along host language types

13:20:23 [Steven]

... might need a grid HTML4/XHTML 1.1/XHTML 2.0

13:20:36 [Steven]

... and SVG might be another column in time

13:21:15 [Steven]

Shane: I think partitioning is great, I have an SGML DTD for HTML 4.01

13:21:26 [Steven]

Mh: Public available?

13:21:32 [Steven]

Shane: For small values of public, sure

13:21:49 [ShaneM]

html401+rdfa SGML DTD is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/html401-rdfa-1.dtd

13:22:56 [Steven]

Ben: About conformance of existing implementations:

13:23:03 [Steven]

... the bookmarklets are almost uptodate

13:23:19 [Steven]

... Elias's parser is up-to-date

13:23:32 [Steven]

s/is/is not/

13:23:57 [Steven]

... but we need to track which implementations are following the latest version

13:25:03 [Steven]

Ben: Do we have an XSLY guru on the team?

13:25:08 [Steven]

s/Y/T/

13:25:35 [Steven]

... since we could update Fabian's XSLT version

13:25:43 [Steven]

Mh: I'd be happy to do it

13:26:19 [Steven]

Ben: I'm thrilled!

13:26:40 [Steven]

ACTION Michael to update Fabian's XSLT

13:26:56 [Steven]

ACTION: Michael to update Fabian's XSLT

13:27:00 [Steven]

ack me

13:27:12 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #rdfa

13:27:21 [wing]

zakim, wing holds wing, EliasT

13:27:24 [Zakim]

+wing, EliasT; got it

13:28:08 [EliasT]

Topic: XMLLiteral

13:28:11 [Steven]

Topic: XML Literal

13:28:53 [Steven]

Ben: Do we agree with the hybrid solution

13:29:00 [Steven]

s/tion/tion?/

13:29:36 [Steven]

... where mixed content gives XML Lieteral, otherwise a plain literal

13:29:41 [Steven]

... with an attribute to override

13:29:50 [Steven]

s/Liet/Lit/

13:30:22 [Steven]

Mark: The hybrid isn't as good as I had originally thought

13:30:33 [Steven]

... for instance the <table> example

13:31:03 [mhausenblas]

q+ to ask about the procedure

13:31:18 [Steven]

Ben: This is the case with RDFa attribute on the <tr>, and you don't want the <td>s. Isn't the override then the solution?

13:31:22 [Steven]

Mark: Yes, could be

13:32:00 [Steven]

Mark: The solution has to be consistent

13:32:48 [Steven]

Ben: I don't want to reopen the whole issue. I don't see what the problem is with your current example

13:33:44 [Steven]

<tr property="foaf:name"><td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td></tr>

13:34:07 [Steven]

Mark: I would like the markup to be preserved, but the query to work

13:34:10 [EliasT]

<> foaf:name "<td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td>"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral ?

13:34:13 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

13:34:13 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

13:34:34 [Steven]

Ben: That's what the hybrid gives us

13:35:06 [Steven]

... I don't get the problem

13:35:46 [Steven]

Elias: I agree that you can write the SPARQL queries in a defensive manner

13:35:58 [Steven]

... I don't think it should be a driver for the design of RDFa

13:36:19 [Steven]

... why is the snippet above useful to me?

13:36:30 [mhausenblas]

q?

13:36:46 [Steven]

Mark: Why is it not useful?

13:37:15 [Steven]

Elias: I'm OK with that output

13:37:53 [ShaneM]

zakim, mute me

13:37:53 [Zakim]

ShaneM should now be muted

13:38:07 [Steven]

... I don't want to go in cirlces again

13:38:24 [Steven]

s/irlc/ircl/

13:38:26 [mhausenblas]

ack me

13:38:26 [Zakim]

mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about the procedure

13:39:00 [Steven]

Mh: I thought we were going to investigate APIs

13:39:07 [Steven]

... I don't see the problem here.

13:39:45 [Steven]

Ben: I agree with Mark that RDFa brings in a whole new world of semantic markup

13:40:22 [Steven]

Elias: The question is about what should the default be. Plain, or XML literal.

13:40:38 [Steven]

... but the hybrid solution seems to make this question moot

13:41:13 [Steven]

Mark: My remaining issue is not with the markup but with the people writing the queries

13:41:33 [Steven]

q+

13:42:24 [Steven]

... if we agree that defensive queries is the solution, then I am happy

13:42:27 [Steven]

ack me

13:43:13 [EliasT]

Ben, could you please write a PROPOSAL text so we can agree on that and have that on the minutes?

13:43:37 [Steven]

PROPOSAL: Use the hybrid approach, and query defensivbely

13:43:54 [EliasT]

Steven, but I need more explicit text...

13:43:59 [EliasT]

:-)

13:44:05 [ShaneM]

It would be great if the Primer could capture an example of a defensive query

13:44:38 [benadida]

PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands.

13:45:47 [EliasT]

<> foaf:name "<td>Elias</td>"

13:45:50 [Steven]

s/vb/v/

13:45:56 [EliasT]

<> foaf:name "Elias"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral

13:46:04 [Steven]

Ben: This is not our problem

13:46:30 [Steven]

... i.e. reserialising RDF triples as X/HTML

13:47:40 [benadida]

PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype=plain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way).

13:47:45 [Steven]

Mark: We need to be explicit what happens when mixed content gets recorded as Plain

13:47:47 [ShaneM]

I would like to see whatever the decision is reflected in the description of @datatype in the xhtml-rdfa draft.

13:48:19 [ShaneM]

if there are reserved values in the xhtml namespace for @datatype, we need to ocument those.

13:48:36 [Steven]

s/ oc/doc/

13:49:18 [Steven]

Ben: We still need to resolve what happens when markup gets stripped

13:49:29 [benadida]

PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).

13:49:36 [Steven]

Mark: I think we need all text nodes to be concatenated

13:49:56 [EliasT]

Second

13:49:58 [mhausenblas]

+1

13:50:01 [Simone]

+1

13:50:02 [wing]

+1

13:50:14 [ShaneM]

abstain

13:50:22 [Steven]

RESOLVED: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).

13:50:24 [ShaneM]

zakim, unmute me

13:50:24 [Zakim]

ShaneM should no longer be muted

13:51:01 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28

13:51:05 [Steven]

Topic: Approval of raised issues

13:51:25 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28

13:51:31 [Steven]

Ben: Opposed?

13:51:34 [Steven]

[none]

13:51:44 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/29

13:51:56 [EliasT]

+1

13:52:00 [Steven]

Ben: Opposed?

13:52:03 [Steven]

[None]

13:52:10 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/34

13:52:26 [Steven]

Ben: href on all elements. Opposed?

13:52:33 [Steven]

[None]

13:52:53 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben to update issues list

13:53:26 [Steven]

Topic: @src

13:53:26 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

13:53:48 [ShaneM]

coming back.... arrgh

13:53:56 [Steven]

Ben: an earlier proposal had src representing subject

13:54:01 [Zakim]

+??P15

13:54:02 [Steven]

... we rejected this

13:54:11 [ShaneM]

zakim, ??P15 is ShaneM

13:54:11 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

13:54:21 [Steven]

... as an object was another proposal

13:54:43 [Steven]

Mark: I sent a private email on this

13:55:03 [Steven]

... the reason src is different, is because the relationship to the document is obvious

13:55:40 [Steven]

q+

13:56:57 [Steven]

ack me

13:57:24 [ShaneM]

let's debate in e-mail?

13:57:31 [Steven]

Ben: We have opened the discussion, we need to discuss it, and should debate in email

13:57:39 [ShaneM]

gotta run - on html call in 3 minutes

13:57:41 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has left #rdfa

13:57:44 [Steven]

... no resolution yet6

13:57:47 [Steven]

s/6/

13:57:55 [Steven]

ADJOURN

13:58:01 [Steven]

Meeting next week, Monday

13:58:53 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:00:18 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:00:19 [Zakim]

-wing

14:00:20 [Zakim]

-MarkB

14:00:22 [Zakim]

-Simone

14:00:24 [Zakim]

-mhausenblas

14:00:27 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:00:29 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended

14:00:31 [Zakim]

Attendees were mhausenblas, McCarron, Simone, Steven, Ben_Adida, MarkB, ShaneM, wing, EliasT

14:01:45 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:01:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

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