IRC log of xproc on 2007-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:51:53 [MoZ]
Zakim, this will be xproc
14:51:53 [Zakim]
ok, MoZ; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
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14:55:59 [PGrosso]
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14:57:32 [Norm]
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14:58:58 [richard]
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14:59:45 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:52 [Zakim]
14:59:59 [Zakim]
14:59:59 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:00:00 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:01:47 [Zakim]
15:01:59 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm
15:02:05 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:02:05 [Norm]
Date: 5 Apr 2007
15:02:05 [Norm]
15:02:05 [Norm]
Meeting number: 62, T-minus 30 weeks
15:02:05 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:02:07 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:02:09 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:03:07 [Zakim]
15:03:25 [Zakim]
15:03:39 [Norm]
rrsagent, pointer?
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]
15:04:50 [Norm]
Regrets: Henry, Rui
15:05:05 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows
15:05:07 [alexmilowski]
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15:05:53 [Norm]
Thanks, MoZ
15:05:58 [Norm]
Regrets: Henry, Rui, Mohamed
15:06:05 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows
15:08:22 [Norm]
Present: Richard, Paul, Norm, Alessandro, Alex
15:08:31 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:08:31 [Norm]
15:08:38 [Norm]
15:08:42 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:08:42 [Norm]
15:08:47 [Norm]
15:08:52 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 12 Apr 2007
15:09:00 [Norm]
No regrets given.
15:09:08 [Norm]
Topic: 5 Apr 2007 WD
15:09:08 [Norm]
Will be published today.
15:09:37 [Norm]
s/Will be/Was/
15:09:48 [Norm]
Topic: Caching
15:10:13 [Norm]
Norm: So caching is the problem of referring by URI in one component to an output of a previous component.
15:10:49 [Norm]
15:12:05 [Norm]
Norm: There were follow-on messages, Henry proposed a caching scheme and Mohamed proposed p:map
15:13:01 [Norm]
Richard: I would like to be able to implement XProc in a system where components were implemented as completely independent external programs.
15:13:01 [Norm]
...As a consequence, it'd be impossible to do any sort of caching.
15:13:33 [Norm]
Norm: That strategy may have trouble with some pipelines.
15:13:52 [Norm]
Richard: For protocols in general, it may even be the case that different requests at different times will get different results.
15:14:13 [Norm]
Norm: The alternative that got us back into this discussion was the Xinclude-with-sequence component.
15:14:47 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think that's a practical answer.
15:17:22 [Norm]
Some discussion ranges
15:17:30 [Norm]
s/ranges/of the possibilities
15:18:24 [Norm]
Richard: What is the circumstance that causes an output to appear at a URI if there's no serializing component.
15:20:18 [Norm]
Norm: I was thinking that your implementation of XSLT with extensions would write them to disk
15:20:58 [Norm]
Richard: Are you supposed to use http: URIs for local caching?
15:21:03 [Norm]
Alex: Browsers cache all the time.
15:21:36 [Norm]
Alex: What happens to the base URI of a document when it goes through XInclude.
15:22:02 [Norm]
Richard: I agree that the base URI can be anything you like, but I've never before encountered a situation where other processes would see that.
15:22:19 [Norm]
Alex: What if we had a way to hook up a sequence to arbitrary steps to say that this is the set of known documents.
15:22:26 [Norm]
Richard: You shouldn't use http to refer to the the things in there.
15:24:33 [Norm]
Norm outlines the include/import case which motivates caching.
15:24:58 [Norm]
Richard: I don't have any problem with URIs that are private to a pipeline, but I don't think they should use http: URIs.
15:25:15 [Norm]
...It seems to me that's an abuse of http:
15:25:38 [alexmilowski]
That battle has been lost as http uris are used for namespaces all the time...
15:26:03 [Norm]
Richard: The use of http: URIs for namespace doesn't bear on this because they don't get dereferenced. They're just strings.
15:26:22 [Norm]
...Here you're proposing a mechanism that does a GET but gets a different result.
15:28:05 [Norm]
Alessandro: I agree with Richard. But if you use another component that might help.
15:28:23 [Norm]
Richard: I think file: URIs are the way that you'd do this. You'd put it in a temporary file and refer to that.
15:28:45 [Norm]
...Either you have to reuse filenames or make up filenames, so file: URIs aren't perfect.
15:29:35 [Norm]
Richard: I can see that there might be objections from others on the basis that this isn't how the web is supposed to work.
15:30:50 [Norm]
Alex: Does this mean that if you changed the base URI of the document, you could avoid the problem?
15:31:22 [Norm]
Alex: You fabricate an identifier, id:1234, then it's no longer retrievable therefore it's cacheable.
15:32:11 [Norm]
Alex: Since it's not retrievable then it's not a problem.
15:32:33 [Norm]
Richard: That doesn't help me because I can't use those URIs in external, unmodifiable components.
15:33:04 [Norm]
Alex: For caching to work, then we need a way for people to order things.
15:33:51 [Norm]
Norm: There was strong resistance on the list to any sort of dependency support and I don't see any consensus being acheived on the caching issue.
15:34:03 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not a fan of caching.
15:34:42 [Norm]
...I don't want to be in a situation where arbitrary things can pull documents from a cache so that I have to store everything.
15:35:07 [Norm]
Richard: I don't think the caching solution is a good solution anyway. What we have here is the temporary file problem. Having fixed names doesn't work.
15:35:52 [Norm]
...Suppose there's a subpipeline that works by constructing a partial stylesheet or something. Now if you use that module twice, you'll have a conflict.
15:36:19 [Norm]
Richard: Programming libraries usually do this with dynamic names, but that's inconvenient in cases like XInclude.
15:36:55 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think we're making progress towards an answer. Without a good proposal on the table, we should probably move on.
15:37:21 [Norm]
Norm: Is there anyone that wants to continue discussing the caching issue?
15:37:51 [Norm]
Richard: If we can't come to a conclusion about it, we ought to produce a list of use cases that seem to require it. That way we have something to test future solutions against.
15:39:16 [Norm]
Norm: I think the XInclude/XSLT import/Schema include use case is the only one I can think of. Richard's observation of the problems of multiple inclusions of the same subpipeline is an interesting wrinkle.
15:39:37 [richard]
moz - I suppose a scoped catalog mechanism might work for multiple instances
15:41:07 [Norm]
Norm: Given a component that can produce a URI for a local file and another component that can replace attribute values, you can probably work around this situation.
15:41:18 [Norm]
Alex: You may also be able to work around it with the p:insert component. Possibly.
15:41:38 [Norm]
Norm: I propose that caching is dead.
15:41:52 [Norm]
Topic: Dependency managentment.
15:43:24 [Norm]
Norm: I propose dependency management is dead. We can abdicate responsibility for side-effects in V1.
15:43:36 [Norm]
Alex: You can also use p:group and a funky parameter to force the order.
15:44:15 [Norm]
Topic: Review of the step library
15:44:40 [Norm]
Alex: We went through the list last time.
15:46:00 [Norm]
Alex summarizes his current work queue from last time.
15:46:19 [Norm]
Alex: there's a question about non-XML syntaxes for RELAX
15:46:31 [MoZ]
15:46:34 [Norm]
Norm: I'd like to find some way to start a discussion of the component input and output vocabularies.
15:46:43 [MoZ]
and for XQuery also
15:47:26 [Norm]
Norm: We have specialized input/output vocabularies for store, XSL-FO, and httpRequest.
15:48:12 [Norm]
Alex: XQuery also has one.
15:49:15 [Norm]
Alex: The httpRequest component is most odd. Most other components consume things described in other specifications.
15:50:22 [Norm]
Norm: I think it's going to be useful, so I don't want to remove it.
15:50:28 [Norm]
Alex: It is underspecified.
15:50:47 [Norm]
Norm: Can you please start to fully specify it.
15:50:50 [Norm]
Alex: Yes.
15:51:46 [Norm]
Alex: I should also put the XQuery input into our own namespace.
15:53:54 [Norm]
Alex: Can we make the micro-operations optional?
15:54:06 [Norm]
Norm: That's not interoperable, I'd rather make them all required.
15:54:26 [Norm]
No one objects, so that's what Alex will do
15:54:28 [Norm]
15:54:34 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:54:36 [Norm]
15:54:53 [Norm]
15:54:53 [Zakim]
15:54:55 [Zakim]
15:54:56 [Zakim]
15:54:56 [Zakim]
15:55:03 [Zakim]
15:55:04 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:55:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows
15:55:16 [MoZ]
Zakim, you forget me !
15:55:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you forget me !', MoZ
15:55:53 [PGrosso]
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15:56:10 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:56:14 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
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18:26:26 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
18:26:26 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items