14:42:58 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:42:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/05-xproc-irc 14:51:53 Zakim, this will be xproc 14:51:53 ok, MoZ; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 14:52:37 avernet has joined #xproc 14:55:59 PGrosso has joined #xproc 14:57:32 Norm has joined #xproc 14:58:58 richard has joined #xproc 14:59:45 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 14:59:52 +??P22 14:59:59 +[ArborText] 14:59:59 zakim, ? is me 15:00:00 +richard; got it 15:01:47 +Norm 15:01:59 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:01:59 On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm 15:02:05 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:02:05 Date: 5 Apr 2007 15:02:05 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/22-agenda.html 15:02:05 Meeting number: 62, T-minus 30 weeks 15:02:05 Chair: Norm 15:02:07 Scribe: Norm 15:02:09 ScribeNick: Norm 15:03:07 +Alessandro_Vernet 15:03:25 +Alex_Milows 15:03:39 rrsagent, pointer? 15:03:39 See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/05-xproc-irc#T15-03-39 15:04:50 Regrets: Henry, Rui 15:05:05 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:05:05 On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows 15:05:07 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:05:53 Thanks, MoZ 15:05:58 Regrets: Henry, Rui, Mohamed 15:06:05 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:06:05 On the phone I see richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows 15:08:22 Present: Richard, Paul, Norm, Alessandro, Alex 15:08:31 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:08:31 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/04/05-agenda.html 15:08:38 Accepted. 15:08:42 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 15:08:42 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/29-minutes.html 15:08:47 Accepted. 15:08:52 Topic: Next meeting: telcon 12 Apr 2007 15:09:00 No regrets given. 15:09:08 Topic: 5 Apr 2007 WD 15:09:08 Will be published today. 15:09:37 s/Will be/Was/ 15:09:48 Topic: Caching 15:10:13 Norm: So caching is the problem of referring by URI in one component to an output of a previous component. 15:10:49 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Mar/0205.html 15:12:05 Norm: There were follow-on messages, Henry proposed a caching scheme and Mohamed proposed p:map 15:13:01 Richard: I would like to be able to implement XProc in a system where components were implemented as completely independent external programs. 15:13:01 ...As a consequence, it'd be impossible to do any sort of caching. 15:13:33 Norm: That strategy may have trouble with some pipelines. 15:13:52 Richard: For protocols in general, it may even be the case that different requests at different times will get different results. 15:14:13 Norm: The alternative that got us back into this discussion was the Xinclude-with-sequence component. 15:14:47 Norm: I don't think that's a practical answer. 15:17:22 Some discussion ranges 15:17:30 s/ranges/of the possibilities 15:18:24 Richard: What is the circumstance that causes an output to appear at a URI if there's no serializing component. 15:20:18 Norm: I was thinking that your implementation of XSLT with extensions would write them to disk 15:20:58 Richard: Are you supposed to use http: URIs for local caching? 15:21:03 Alex: Browsers cache all the time. 15:21:36 Alex: What happens to the base URI of a document when it goes through XInclude. 15:22:02 Richard: I agree that the base URI can be anything you like, but I've never before encountered a situation where other processes would see that. 15:22:19 Alex: What if we had a way to hook up a sequence to arbitrary steps to say that this is the set of known documents. 15:22:26 Richard: You shouldn't use http to refer to the the things in there. 15:24:33 Norm outlines the include/import case which motivates caching. 15:24:58 Richard: I don't have any problem with URIs that are private to a pipeline, but I don't think they should use http: URIs. 15:25:15 ...It seems to me that's an abuse of http: 15:25:38 That battle has been lost as http uris are used for namespaces all the time... 15:26:03 Richard: The use of http: URIs for namespace doesn't bear on this because they don't get dereferenced. They're just strings. 15:26:22 ...Here you're proposing a mechanism that does a GET but gets a different result. 15:28:05 Alessandro: I agree with Richard. But if you use another component that might help. 15:28:23 Richard: I think file: URIs are the way that you'd do this. You'd put it in a temporary file and refer to that. 15:28:45 ...Either you have to reuse filenames or make up filenames, so file: URIs aren't perfect. 15:29:35 Richard: I can see that there might be objections from others on the basis that this isn't how the web is supposed to work. 15:30:50 Alex: Does this mean that if you changed the base URI of the document, you could avoid the problem? 15:31:22 Alex: You fabricate an identifier, id:1234, then it's no longer retrievable therefore it's cacheable. 15:32:11 Alex: Since it's not retrievable then it's not a problem. 15:32:33 Richard: That doesn't help me because I can't use those URIs in external, unmodifiable components. 15:33:04 Alex: For caching to work, then we need a way for people to order things. 15:33:51 Norm: There was strong resistance on the list to any sort of dependency support and I don't see any consensus being acheived on the caching issue. 15:34:03 Alex: I'm not a fan of caching. 15:34:42 ...I don't want to be in a situation where arbitrary things can pull documents from a cache so that I have to store everything. 15:35:07 Richard: I don't think the caching solution is a good solution anyway. What we have here is the temporary file problem. Having fixed names doesn't work. 15:35:52 ...Suppose there's a subpipeline that works by constructing a partial stylesheet or something. Now if you use that module twice, you'll have a conflict. 15:36:19 Richard: Programming libraries usually do this with dynamic names, but that's inconvenient in cases like XInclude. 15:36:55 Norm: I don't think we're making progress towards an answer. Without a good proposal on the table, we should probably move on. 15:37:21 Norm: Is there anyone that wants to continue discussing the caching issue? 15:37:51 Richard: If we can't come to a conclusion about it, we ought to produce a list of use cases that seem to require it. That way we have something to test future solutions against. 15:39:16 Norm: I think the XInclude/XSLT import/Schema include use case is the only one I can think of. Richard's observation of the problems of multiple inclusions of the same subpipeline is an interesting wrinkle. 15:39:37 moz - I suppose a scoped catalog mechanism might work for multiple instances 15:41:07 Norm: Given a component that can produce a URI for a local file and another component that can replace attribute values, you can probably work around this situation. 15:41:18 Alex: You may also be able to work around it with the p:insert component. Possibly. 15:41:38 Norm: I propose that caching is dead. 15:41:52 Topic: Dependency managentment. 15:43:24 Norm: I propose dependency management is dead. We can abdicate responsibility for side-effects in V1. 15:43:36 Alex: You can also use p:group and a funky parameter to force the order. 15:44:15 Topic: Review of the step library 15:44:40 Alex: We went through the list last time. 15:46:00 Alex summarizes his current work queue from last time. 15:46:19 Alex: there's a question about non-XML syntaxes for RELAX 15:46:31 yes 15:46:34 Norm: I'd like to find some way to start a discussion of the component input and output vocabularies. 15:46:43 and for XQuery also 15:47:26 Norm: We have specialized input/output vocabularies for store, XSL-FO, and httpRequest. 15:48:12 Alex: XQuery also has one. 15:49:15 Alex: The httpRequest component is most odd. Most other components consume things described in other specifications. 15:50:22 Norm: I think it's going to be useful, so I don't want to remove it. 15:50:28 Alex: It is underspecified. 15:50:47 Norm: Can you please start to fully specify it. 15:50:50 Alex: Yes. 15:51:46 Alex: I should also put the XQuery input into our own namespace. 15:53:54 Alex: Can we make the micro-operations optional? 15:54:06 Norm: That's not interoperable, I'd rather make them all required. 15:54:26 No one objects, so that's what Alex will do 15:54:28 s/do/do./ 15:54:34 Topic: Any other business? 15:54:36 None. 15:54:53 Adjourned. 15:54:53 -Alex_Milows 15:54:55 -PGrosso 15:54:56 -Alessandro_Vernet 15:54:56 -Norm 15:55:03 -richard 15:55:04 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 15:55:05 Attendees were richard, PGrosso, Norm, Alessandro_Vernet, Alex_Milows 15:55:16 Zakim, you forget me ! 15:55:16 I don't understand 'you forget me !', MoZ 15:55:53 PGrosso has left #xproc 15:56:10 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 15:56:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:56:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/05-xproc-minutes.html Norm 15:56:28 alexmilowski has left #xproc 16:45:27 Norm has joined #xproc 18:19:42 Zakim has left #xproc 18:26:26 rrsagent, bye 18:26:26 I see no action items