IRC log of grddl-wg on 2007-04-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:04:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:04:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:04:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #grddl-wg
15:05:04 [DanC]
Zakim, this is grddl
15:05:04 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
15:05:13 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from
15:05:16 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
15:05:17 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-04T11:00-0400
15:05:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
15:05:24 [Zakim]
agenda+ Patent Policy
15:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
15:05:28 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: Last Call comments due 30 March 2007
15:05:30 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
15:05:32 [Zakim]
agenda+ multiple values in @rel
15:05:34 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
15:05:36 [Zakim]
agenda+ security considerations
15:05:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
15:05:42 [Zakim]
agenda+ issue-whichlangs
15:05:44 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:05:46 [Zakim]
agenda+ issue-http-header-links
15:05:48 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
15:05:50 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work
15:05:52 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
15:05:54 [Zakim]
agenda+ Advocating
15:05:58 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
15:06:00 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer Document: Last Call?
15:06:02 [Zakim]
agendum 10 added
15:06:02 [FabienG]
FabienG has joined #grddl-wg
15:06:08 [Zakim]
agenda+ Use-Case Document:
15:06:10 [Zakim]
agendum 11 added
15:06:12 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:06:18 [Zakim]
agendum 12 added
15:06:20 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
15:06:32 [Zakim]
15:06:35 [HarryH]
Zakim, aacc is HarryH
15:06:35 [Zakim]
+HarryH; got it
15:06:41 [DanC]
15:06:42 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:06:42 [Zakim]
+jjc; got it
15:06:42 [john-l]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:06:43 [Zakim]
+john-l; got it
15:06:51 [HarryH]
Zakim, aaaa is Chime
15:06:51 [Zakim]
sorry, HarryH, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:06:59 [Zakim]
+ +049238aadd
15:07:03 [HarryH]
Zakim, aaaa is john-l
15:07:03 [Zakim]
sorry, HarryH, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:07:20 [DanC]
Zakim, +1.216.445.aaaa is JohnL
15:07:20 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '+1.216.445.aaaa'
15:07:26 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john-l, +1.703.956.aabb, jjc, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, FabienG
15:07:38 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:07:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-04T11:00-0400" taken up
15:07:38 [HarryH]
Zakim, aabb is rreck
15:07:41 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
15:07:47 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's on the phone
15:07:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', HarryH
15:07:54 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john-l, rreck, jjc, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, FabienG
15:08:27 [Zakim]
15:08:35 [Simone]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:08:35 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:08:58 [DanC]
Scribe: john-l
15:09:18 [HarryH]
regrets: BrianS, IanD
15:09:33 [DanC]
# ACTION: jjc [DONE] to correct the minutes from 21 March 2007 to get full list of attendees.
15:09:39 [DanC]
ACTION: jjc [DONE] to correct the minutes from 21 March 2007 to get full list of attendees.
15:10:00 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly -- 21 March 2007 as a true record
15:10:11 [HarryH]
15:10:26 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: approved GRDDL WG Weekly -- 21 March 2007 as a true record
15:10:37 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly -- 28 March 2007 as a true record
15:10:53 [DanC]
ACTION: jjc to produce EARL for his implementation, and then sort out multiple test passing in his EARL. [CONTINUES]
15:11:21 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #grddl-wg
15:11:40 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 11 April 11:00-0500. scribe volunteer?
15:11:49 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
15:11:49 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simone
15:11:54 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to approve as ammended
15:12:02 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
15:12:02 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:12:18 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:12:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Patent Policy" taken up
15:12:30 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet again 11 April 11:00-0500, Chime to scribe
15:12:51 [john-l]
HarryH: What's the status on dealing with the two stragglers?
15:14:00 [HarryH]
15:14:39 [DanC]
15:15:46 [john-l]
DanC: How long do we have to wait if they don't answer?
15:16:09 [john-l]
HarryH: I thought that extended to November.
15:16:27 [DanC]
25 Aug
15:16:27 [john-l]
DanC: That's a long time to wait.
15:16:39 [john-l]
HarryH: Keep on harassing them?
15:17:16 [john-l]
HarryH: We gave it a good try, and they haven't been attending meetings.
15:17:40 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to send another e-mail to Citigroup, Samsung, Ian Jacobs, and Steve over patent exclusions.
15:17:43 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:17:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "GRDDL Spec: Last Call comments due 30 March 2007" taken up
15:18:15 [john-l]
HarryH: Note, this means the deadline for last call comments has passed.
15:18:28 [john-l]
DanC: We now have an excuse if we want to ignore huge comments.
15:18:33 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:18:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3 was just opened, HarryH
15:21:49 [john-l]
chimezie: Oracle has a forum for discussing community issues such as this.
15:22:01 [john-l]
DanC: What about the RDFa community?
15:22:20 [chimezie]
Oracle semantic technology forum (lots of SPARQL/RDF/GRDDL?) conversation, they are responsive there:
15:22:20 [john-l]
HarryH: Had some discussion with Ben Adida about hGRDDL.
15:23:48 [chimezie]
that's a weird phone effect
15:24:17 [john-l]
DanC: We are really on hold until we hear back from the RDFa working group.
15:24:17 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to SemWeb Deployment Group and ask for explicit comments or explicit "no comments"
15:25:33 [DanC]
(looking at ... )
15:25:38 [john-l]
FabienG: As far as I know, the Deployment Group is not closely tracking GRDDL.
15:26:34 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: ask that a GRDDL transformation for RDFa go in the issues list
15:26:41 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:26:41 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "multiple values in @rel" taken up
15:27:06 [john-l]
HarryH: What's the question here?
15:27:47 [john-l]
DanC: Are implementations correct based on current spec?
15:28:07 [john-l]
DanC: If this is going to be a technical change, then we may need another last call.
15:29:07 [jjc]
15:29:12 [DanC]
(eek! says it's a W3C working draft. pls take the WD icon off, Chime)
15:29:39 [jjc]
15:31:30 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: revise "transformation" rule to be clear about spaces, multiple values
15:32:43 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:32:43 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "security considerations" taken up
15:34:09 [john-l]
DanC: Need to harass ERH to ensure that the comment is properly addressed.
15:34:58 [john-l]
jjc: The message was sent to him on the 30th of March.
15:34:59 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc [CONTINUES] to update Elliotte with the fact that the tests that address his concerns are in pending.
15:35:40 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:35:41 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "issue-whichlangs" taken up
15:36:19 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:36:19 [Zakim]
agendum 6 was just opened, HarryH
15:38:01 [john-l]
chimezie: Stefano was happy with the possibility of adding text explaining how XSLT's media type could be used to indicate the output language.
15:38:10 [chimezie]
15:38:13 [chimezie]
The Working Group is considering what modifications to the specification
15:38:14 [chimezie]
(if any) can further highlight/clarify this additional mechanism.
15:38:15 [chimezie]
15:38:37 [jjc]
15:39:05 [DanC]
esp 6) clarifying use of turtle/N3
15:39:21 [DanC]
good; that's already on my todo list
15:39:42 [HarryH]
Zakim, next iem
15:39:42 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next iem', HarryH
15:39:50 [jjc]
15:40:41 [john-l]
Zakim, next item
15:40:41 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "issue-http-header-links" taken up
15:40:46 [jjc]
15:41:16 [jjc]
" media-type="x-no-such-type/x-no-such-subtype"/
15:41:46 [DanC]
I'm moderately inclined to withdraw Ian's action re http-header-links. or punt to lazyweb
15:42:24 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:42:24 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work" taken up
15:43:18 [john-l]
DanC: Working on JJC's comments
15:43:27 [chimezie]
ACTION: chimezie remove WD style from 'editors draft'
15:44:38 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to respond to Tony Hammond [CONTINUES]
15:46:22 [john-l]
DanC: stuff I've recognized as a TODO goes into pink text
15:46:48 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 11
15:46:50 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "Use-Case Document:" taken up
15:48:00 [DanC]
15:48:15 [DanC]
good: "This document is [not yet] a Working Group Note"
15:52:32 [HarryH]
ACTION: FabienG (After publication on April 6th) to announce to and microformats community.
15:52:51 [jjc]
note - friday is holiday in some countries, as is Monday
15:53:32 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 9
15:53:32 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "Advocating" taken up
15:53:47 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 10
15:53:47 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "Primer Document: Last Call?" taken up
15:55:18 [john-l]
HarryH: ... discusses
15:55:37 [john-l]
chimezie: Do we need a better example?
15:55:50 [john-l]
HarryH: The current example shows conversion, but isn't strongly motivating.
15:56:15 [john-l]
jjc, chimezie: Prefer indication example.
15:57:11 [chimezie]
15:57:44 [john-l]
chimezie: Putting the "life and death" example into actual practice would raise a number of questions.
15:58:03 [HarryH]
"Below is a somewhat contrived example"
15:58:06 [DanC]
(I'm curious whether the examples in the primer are also in our test suite.)
15:58:12 [HarryH]
But if it's not too contrived...let's do it.
15:58:19 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to wrap indication example in.
15:58:56 [chimezie]
15:59:26 [jjc]
Dan notes the continued question about Primer Last Call
16:00:57 [john-l]
DanC: Now that we have a diagram, the editor needs to think about incorporating it.
16:01:17 [DanC]
(I don't need turtle to be ratified for it to be useful in a primer)
16:01:47 [DanC]
(turtle is used in a number of semweb best practice notes)
16:02:04 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH check the diagram in in Health Care example, where we first introduce turtle.
16:02:40 [DanC]
Harry, is this done? ACTION: HarryH to check any primer fixes in, Murray and Jeremy to review once finished.
16:02:42 [Zakim]
16:02:47 [DanC]
and this? ACTION: HarryH to make sure library transforms are linked from Primer.
16:02:55 [HarryH]
It's not done because of questions about OWL use-case.
16:02:58 [DanC]
16:02:59 [HarryH]
So Continue it.
16:03:07 [DanC]
ACTION: HarryH to check any primer fixes in, Murray and Jeremy to review once finished. [CONTINUES]
16:03:08 [HarryH]
However, the guidance I got today should let me finish it next week.
16:03:19 [DanC]
ACTION: HarryH to make sure library transforms are linked from Primer. [CONTINUES]
16:03:26 [DanC]
Zakim, close this item
16:03:26 [Zakim]
agendum 10 closed
16:03:27 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:03:31 [Zakim]
8. GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work
16:03:36 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 8
16:03:37 [Zakim]
agendum 8, GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work, closed
16:03:41 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:03:47 [Zakim]
9. Advocating
16:03:52 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 9
16:04:02 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "Advocating" taken up
16:04:34 [DanC]
ACTION: Chime to get Semantic Tech 2007 to use GRDDL+microformats for their calendar. [CONTINUES]
16:04:45 [DanC]
harry, still interested to do ACTION: HarryH to contact WWW2007 over microformats+GRDDL for their calendar. ?
16:05:35 [HarryH]
Wait a in lunch meeting :)
16:05:50 [HarryH]
Yes, I am interested via WWW2007 tutorial.
16:06:08 [HarryH]
However, might try to pass it off to BrianS since he seems to be 1) good at these things 2) have some spare cycles.
16:06:20 [HarryH]
Just continue it and I'll e-mail BrianS about his schedule.
16:06:44 [DanC]
ACTION: HarryH to contact WWW2007 over microformats+GRDDL for their calendar. [CONTINUES]
16:07:13 [DanC]
jjc: one could make one profile for all microformats, or for all the ones that we have XSLT for
16:07:29 [DanC]
DanC: yes, that just needs a maintainer to set/meet expecataions.
16:07:47 [john-l]
16:08:23 [DanC]
ACTION: BrianS to contact RyanKing about adding GRDDL profile for hCal/hCard to Javascripot microformat generator. [CONTINUES]
16:08:28 [DanC]
I'd like to chat more with Brian about that
16:08:37 [DanC]
Zakim, close this item
16:08:37 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
16:08:38 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:39 [Zakim]
11. Use-Case Document:
16:08:45 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 1
16:08:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-04T11:00-0400, closed
16:08:46 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:46 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 11
16:08:48 [Zakim]
11. Use-Case Document:
16:08:49 [Zakim]
agendum 11, Use-Case Document:, closed
16:08:51 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:08:52 [Zakim]
12. Test Cases
16:08:59 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
16:08:59 [Zakim]
agendum 12. "Test Cases" taken up
16:09:46 [DanC]
ACTION: Chime to announce to that GRDDL Test Cases is a WD. [DONE]
16:10:37 [DanC]
16:10:57 [DanC]
ACTION: jjc to modify #loopx to relate to discussion about SHOULD [DONE]
16:11:13 [chimezie]
16:11:48 [john-l]
jjc: Several tests need to be moved into the official manifests.
16:12:58 [jjc]
16:13:43 [chimezie] (in editorial draft)
16:14:15 [chimezie]
16:14:33 [jjc]
16:16:17 [john-l]
chimezie: URIs are becoming very difficult to manage.
16:16:20 [john-l]
DanC: example?
16:16:37 [chimezie]
16:17:03 [chimezie]
16:17:14 [chimezie]
16:17:42 [john-l]
DanC: And what's the issue with those?
16:17:43 [jjc]
16:17:46 [chimezie]
#hcard1 is a 'networked' test, #attomttl1 is 'local' (and that's why its hardwired to the repository)
16:17:56 [Zakim]
16:17:57 [jjc]
16:19:09 [chimezie] is the base for all the test material
16:19:12 [chimezie]
(networked or otherwise)
16:23:29 [john-l]
chimezie: Using .../td/ leads one to the editor's draft, not the official version.
16:23:43 [john-l]
chimezie: Just point to the official version from the .../td/ location?
16:24:33 [john-l]
jjc: aboutTests.xsl used to output all relative URIs.
16:25:12 [john-l]
... Networked tests should be referenced with an "absolute" URI.
16:27:09 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that each test have a URI of the form ...
16:27:24 [HarryH]
16:28:21 [jjc]
16:28:41 [DanC]
RESOLVED: that each test have a URI of the form
16:30:06 [DanC]
. ACTION who: migrate testlist1,2,3 tests
16:30:48 [john-l]
jjc: Referenced from the web, all the tests end up being networked tests, but when used locally, some can be referenced using relative references with no functional change.
16:31:15 [john-l]
... This is an implementation detail of producing the RDF manifests from the HTML versions.
16:32:14 [jjc]
The WG tests have input from and output from the same.
16:32:32 [jjc]
Implementors may have local copies which they can access in a cache like mechanism
16:32:52 [jjc]
The network tests are not suited for such a local cache due to various considerations
16:33:19 [jjc]
However, the implementors use of a local cache is their decision, and not a topic for WG discussion or decision
16:35:26 [john-l]
chimezie: Batch approval for URI aliasing should be easy to do.
16:36:20 [john-l]
chimezie: Sufficient to just put in text aliasing the text?
16:36:27 [john-l]
DanC: Just need to update the approval date.
16:37:05 [DanC]
. ACTION chime: migrate testlist1,2,3, pending tests, noting previously approved tests
16:37:20 [DanC]
ACTION chime: migrate testlist1,2,3, pending tests, noting previously approved tests
16:37:46 [DanC]
(oops! 7 minutes over)
16:38:34 [DanC]
jjc notes #loopx is overused
16:38:48 [DanC]
[DONE] ACTION: jjcto manufacture .htaccess file for test cases using 301 "Moved Permanently" and e-mail Jean Gui
16:38:58 [DanC]
ACTION: Chime to fix the relative URL problem [CONTINUES]
16:39:06 [DanC]
[DONE] ACTION: jjc to edit library file to remove .xsls
16:39:22 [DanC]
ACTION: HarryH to run EARL-> HTML table generator [CONTINUES]
16:39:50 [DanC]
swapping in ...
16:40:31 [DanC] has the old EARL namespace
16:41:40 [john-l]
DanC: When can we unleash testers to generate EARL?
16:41:54 [john-l]
DanC: Should wait until the dust settles from actions recorded today
16:42:15 [DanC]
ACTION Chime: produce EARL to report about
16:43:09 [DanC]
(I'm swapping in ... )
16:44:30 [john-l]
16:45:09 [DanC]
( has the WG making a go-to-CR decision 11 Apr. looks unlikely. I'm inclined to mark sched7 obsolete, but somebody should notify the semweb cg, and I'm trying not to take actions except editing actions. Harry?)
16:46:17 [HarryH]
I can notify SemWeb CG next time they meet...
16:46:40 [DanC]
ACTION HarryH: note that the GRDDL WG is unlikely to decide to go to CR by 11 Apr as earlier predicted.
16:46:53 [DanC]
s/note/notify the semweb-cg/
16:47:06 [jjc]
Purposes of tests is 1) provide WG with evidence to get to PR 2) provide implementors with evidence that they have implemented GRDDL
16:47:53 [jjc]
If we have mechanisms to automate the rule that alternative tests are tests that have the same input, then these objectives may be easier
16:48:15 [john-l]
I believe my patch helps with this if you are using
16:48:25 [jjc]
However, the text above, is sufficient for 1) and 2) and so given time pressure, may be the right choice
16:48:37 [john-l]
As I've pointed out, you can also use arbitrary RDF tools to do this given the EARL output.
16:49:29 [DanC]
16:49:48 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please generate the minutes
16:49:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate john-l
16:49:55 [john-l]
Thank you, RRSAgent.
16:50:36 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes world-readable.
16:50:36 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes world-readable.', john-l. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:52:13 [john-l]
Ok, how do I ask RRSAgent to open up the permissions on the minutes?
16:53:05 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes world-readable
16:53:05 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes world-readable', john-l. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:54:20 [john-l]
RRSAgent, please make these logs world-visible
16:54:23 [john-l]
16:55:52 [john-l]
Interesting; RRSAgent missed the Present group again.
16:57:42 [Zakim]
16:57:43 [Zakim]
16:57:43 [Zakim]
16:57:57 [Zakim]
16:58:00 [Zakim]
16:58:10 [Simone]
Simone has left #GRDDL-WG
16:58:11 [jjc]
jjc has left #grddl-wg
17:03:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
17:03:02 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
17:03:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.216.445.aaaa, +1.703.956.aabb, +1.919.457.aacc, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, HarryH, jjc, john-l, +049238aadd, FabienG, rreck, Simone
17:21:09 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
17:21:14 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:21:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
17:22:58 [DanC]
oops; I see john-l already did that stuff.