IRC log of swd on 2007-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
15:01:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+??P27
15:01:46 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:01:50 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:02:02 [RalphS]
Meeting: SemWeb Deployment WG
15:02:05 [JonP]
zakim, Jon_Phipps is me
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+JonP; got it
15:02:07 [RalphS]
Chair: Guus
15:02:19 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Apr/0001.html
15:02:50 [RalphS]
zakim, mute ??p27
15:02:50 [Zakim]
??P27 should now be muted
15:02:55 [RalphS]
zakim, unmute ??p27
15:02:55 [Zakim]
??P27 should no longer be muted
15:03:01 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p27 is Alistair
15:03:01 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
15:03:16 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p29 is Daniel
15:03:16 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
15:03:27 [RalphS]
zakim, nick dlrubin is daniel
15:03:27 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS, I now associate dlrubin with Daniel
15:03:46 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-03-20
15:03:52 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:04:05 [dlrubin]
scribnick dlrubin
15:04:25 [dlrubin]
scribenick: dlrubin
15:05:07 [RalphS]
Ralph: apologies for not being on irc at the start of last week's aborted meeting to explain the problem with the bridge
15:05:31 [Gus]
regret: Siegfried Handaschuh
15:05:38 [RalphS]
Siggi Handschuh
15:05:53 [dlrubin]
topic: admin
15:05:53 [RalphS]
s/Handa/Hand/
15:06:21 [dlrubin]
No minutes from last tcon, as there were technical problems
15:06:30 [dlrubin]
PROPOSED to accept minutes of 20 March telecon:
15:06:30 [dlrubin]
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html
15:06:34 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:06:50 [dlrubin]
Accepted without objection
15:07:20 [dlrubin]
Next tcon: Tom and Guus not available, so meeting next week will be cancelled
15:07:38 [dlrubin]
Next meeting: Apr 17
15:08:37 [dlrubin]
Spring F2F: Main item for discussion is SKOS, RDFa
15:09:23 [dlrubin]
All: Respond to poll regarding possible face-to-face meeting
15:09:23 [dlrubin]
in June - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f2poll1/
15:09:47 [dlrubin]
Respond to poll regarding possible face-to-face meeting
15:09:47 [dlrubin]
in June - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f2poll1/
15:10:47 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:10:47 [dlrubin]
There is a problem with the June date for most people
15:11:44 [Zakim]
+josema
15:11:50 [berrueta]
zakim, josema is me
15:11:50 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:13:15 [dlrubin]
We likely need to postpone the meeting to Sept
15:13:23 [dlrubin]
No F2F in June
15:14:01 [dlrubin]
Another possibility is to meet at a meeting, like ISWC, but that is in Nov
15:14:27 [mhausenblas]
-> http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Upcoming_events possible events
15:16:26 [dlrubin]
Topic: vocabulary management
15:16:45 [dlrubin]
Elisa: intent is to ogranize material and find out where people can contribute ideas
15:17:15 [dlrubin]
...Learn how people are dealing with this today, and what people are doing (version management, etc)
15:17:23 [dlrubin]
Guus: Need to document current practices
15:18:00 [dlrubin]
Elisa: By next week will have an outline for people to contribute to
15:18:24 [dlrubin]
Guus: we need to invite contributions to particular practices.
15:18:33 [dlrubin]
...it would be useful to have overview of current practices
15:19:11 [dlrubin]
Elisa: There is additional capability...last week at OMG meeting, discussed possibility of OMG for hosting portal for ontologies that OMG people depend on, similar to bioportal
15:19:53 [dlrubin]
...there are RFPs for ontologies in specific domains, eg, insurance, request for ontology for vocabulary in this domain
15:20:05 [dlrubin]
...we hope to expand to cover insurance standards
15:20:21 [dlrubin]
...we need portal for publicizing these things, to follow best practices in vocabulary;
15:20:32 [dlrubin]
...Elisa writing document for this
15:20:47 [dlrubin]
...we may get contributions from OMG for vocabuarly management
15:20:54 [dlrubin]
Guus: any link to provide?
15:21:08 [dlrubin]
Elisa: not yet. As soon as there is a draft, will send link
15:21:28 [dlrubin]
...we can leverage work on this note and on getting things related to OMG together.
15:21:42 [dlrubin]
...There is much interest in OMG in doing this.
15:22:02 [dlrubin]
...The "O" word is now becoming in vogue.
15:23:24 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17
15:23:32 [dlrubin]
topic: SKOS
15:23:54 [dlrubin]
DONE: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:24:01 [Zakim]
-Elisa_Kendall
15:24:26 [RalphS]
Topic: SKOS
15:24:30 [RalphS]
scribenick: ralphs
15:24:42 [RalphS]
Daniel: any further comments on the draft use cases?
15:25:41 [Simone]
Simone has joined #SWD
15:26:08 [dlrubin]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html
15:26:41 [RalphS]
^ SKOS Use Cases and Requirements
15:26:41 [RalphS]
W3C Editors' Draft 06 March 2007
15:26:53 [RalphS]
Daniel: this editors' draft is ready for review now
15:27:19 [RalphS]
... there's a list of SKOS requirements at the bottom
15:27:37 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html#Accepted "Accepted Requirements"
15:28:08 [RalphS]
Alistair: weren't Elisa and Sean agreeing to review this?
15:28:21 [RalphS]
... each has already sent a (partial) review
15:29:12 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0131 [SKOS] Review of SKOS Use Cases and Requirements [Elisa]
15:29:35 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0128 Comments on Use Case document [Sean]
15:29:55 [RalphS]
Guus: the editors are expected to look at the reviews and respond to them
15:30:16 [RalphS]
... based on the reviews, you send a message to the WG summarizing the result and proposing to publish
15:30:25 [Zakim]
+??P5
15:30:38 [RalphS]
Alistair: you don't have to agree with everything the reviewers propose, just justify your decision
15:30:43 [Simone]
Zakim, ??P5 is Simone
15:30:43 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:31:35 [RalphS]
Daniel: each editor could answer the review comments on the use cases they contributed
15:32:04 [RalphS]
Guus: however the editors decide to divide the task of responding to the reviews will be fine
15:32:33 [RalphS]
... the decision to publish should be determined on the basis of having sufficient new material to be useful to the Public
15:32:47 [RalphS]
Jon: there have been a couple of new use cases submitted in the past couple of weeks
15:33:13 [RalphS]
... they might provide some additional requirements after closer inspection
15:33:37 [RalphS]
Guus: I suggest not holding the first WD
15:34:20 [aliman]
+1 on publish quickly, lots of useful information
15:34:21 [RalphS]
... let's get our candidate requirements list published quickly
15:34:51 [RalphS]
... it's OK to have to-dos in the document
15:35:53 [RalphS]
... if you respond to a review citing material that is already in the document, please give a precise citation; sometimes you discover when looking for the citation that something you thought was in the document really isn't there
15:36:52 [RalphS]
ACTION: Antoine, Jon, Daniel respond to the SKOS Use Case reviews, target a decision to publish on 17 April
15:37:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:37:19 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:37:35 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:37:38 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:37:58 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus ping Antoine regarding status of SKOS Use Cases editors' draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:38:28 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Elisa and Sean to review SKOS editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html by 27 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action03]
15:38:42 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action07]
15:38:43 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:39:02 [RalphS]
Alistair: I think it would be helpful if Guus would propose one or two detailed solutions
15:39:47 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/33 ISSUE 33 GroupingConstructs
15:40:28 [RalphS]
Guus: do you have an idea for how to resolve issue 33?
15:41:44 [RalphS]
Alistair: we need a vocabulary for representing grouping constructs. Currently that is skos:Collection. We need to establish a practice for how to say something is a member of this grouping construct.
15:41:52 [RalphS]
Guus: is this like skos:Concept?
15:41:56 [RalphS]
Alistair: no, different
15:42:39 [RalphS]
... milk and cowsMilk related by broader/narrower but both of these are related to [animal products] in some other way
15:42:50 [RalphS]
... could be broader/narrower or associative relationship
15:43:18 [RalphS]
... want to allow people to layer grouping constructs and generate an algorithm for producing hierarchical displays
15:43:35 [RalphS]
... see -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/GroupingConstructs Grouping Constructs Wikit
15:44:15 [RalphS]
Guus: I was surprised by the BOOKS / Operations example
15:44:28 [RalphS]
... I am only accustomed to the use of Collections in the way the Aircraft example works
15:44:48 [RalphS]
Alistair: ISO 723 permits the use of node labels to introduce new facets
15:44:56 [RalphS]
... but they're clear that these are not necessarily narrower
15:45:18 [RalphS]
... ANSI Z39.19 has a similar example to the ISO 2788 Operations example
15:45:26 [RalphS]
... so this is in all three of the major thesaurus standards
15:45:36 [RalphS]
... however, I've not actually seen it used
15:46:13 [RalphS]
Guus: it is not harmful to leave Collection in there
15:46:45 [RalphS]
Alistair: but there is a contradiction; currently the document says that Collections are not Concepts but later it uses them in narrower/broader relations
15:46:53 [RalphS]
Jon: I agree -- a Collection should not be a Concept
15:47:12 [RalphS]
Alistair: the thesaurus standards do talk about node labels in a very different way
15:47:35 [RalphS]
... there is a simpler algorithm to determine where node labels "ought" to appear
15:47:59 [RalphS]
... I feel there should be a vocabulary in SKOS to represent these grouping things and that should not be skos:Concept
15:48:38 [RalphS]
... there's an unfortunate naming collision; in DublinCore, "Collection" refers to a library of documents and in RDF Core "Collection" is a very specific notion
15:49:23 [RalphS]
Guus: milk & cows mail case requires saying cows milk is part of the collection "milk from animals" then also say cows milk is narrower than milk
15:49:32 [RalphS]
Alistair: simpler than what Guus describes
15:49:47 [RalphS]
... can say "if all members of a Collection are narrower then use the node label"
15:50:05 [RalphS]
Jon: what is the value of Collections over having a named type that makes something appear
15:50:33 [RalphS]
... e.g. by-payload is just a relationship between aircraft types and payload types
15:50:42 [RalphS]
Alistair: we want a generic way to represent this pattern
15:51:03 [RalphS]
Guus: consider 'chairs' in AAT
15:51:11 [RalphS]
... need several ways to represent the groupings
15:51:32 [RalphS]
Alistair: and you want to represent the groupings without requiring additional information to generate the transformation
15:51:46 [RalphS]
... you don't want someone to have to disambiguate each type of relation
15:51:54 [RalphS]
Jon: wouldn't it be better to disambiguate?
15:52:17 [RalphS]
Alistair: it might be more useful but we want SKOS to be a target for such transformations
15:52:36 [RalphS]
Guus: could define subproperties of broader/narrower that imply these Collections
15:52:46 [RalphS]
... seems we have identified two alternatives
15:53:15 [RalphS]
ACTION Alistair: write up two alternatives for representing Collections
15:53:18 [dlrubin]
scribenick: dlrubin
15:53:39 [dlrubin]
topic: recipies
15:53:51 [dlrubin]
Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] --continues
15:54:36 [dlrubin]
action: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] --continues
15:55:14 [dlrubin]
Jon: not progress on documents
15:55:34 [dlrubin]
topic: RDFa - RDFa Overview document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
15:56:00 [dlrubin]
Michael: We're working on the test cases.
15:56:12 [dlrubin]
...Had discussion of XHTML to embed RDFa
15:56:27 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html#item03 XHTML 1.1 Module for RDFa discussion
15:56:56 [dlrubin]
Ralph: Progress in getting a DTD to validate HTML + RDFa documents
15:57:20 [dlrubin]
Guus: Any progress on Ben's publishing document on mailing lists?
15:57:26 [dlrubin]
Michael: still pending
15:57:42 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Apr/0004.html Ben's Action progress report
15:58:15 [dlrubin]
action: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action13] --done
15:59:09 [dlrubin]
Ralph: Name change in HTML working groups
15:59:24 [dlrubin]
...on HTML side, the WG on joint task force is XHTML2 WG
15:59:39 [dlrubin]
...We should update name of this WG in necessary places.
15:59:52 [dlrubin]
...They are still in startup phase; no chairs appointed yet
16:00:18 [dlrubin]
There are 2 WG's that have HTML in their name. The XHTML2 WG is associated with RDFa
16:00:31 [dlrubin]
...the second WG is the "HTML WG"
16:00:40 [dlrubin]
Guus: any chance to link to this wg?
16:01:05 [dlrubin]
Ralph: They are directed to do document validation that requires single DTDs. Their charter asks them to look at that
16:01:08 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ HTML WG
16:01:13 [dlrubin]
...They are also in the early formation process
16:01:35 [dlrubin]
...They have made it clear they have no resources to look at RDFa
16:01:46 [dlrubin]
...They are directed to consider the validation issue
16:02:08 [Zakim]
-Daniel
16:02:20 [RalphS]
scribenick: ralphs
16:02:32 [RalphS]
Ralph: Michael and Wing are making good progress on RDFa test cases
16:02:37 [Zakim]
-Alistair
16:02:57 [Zakim]
-Simone
16:02:59 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
16:03:00 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
16:03:03 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:03:05 [Zakim]
-berrueta
16:03:14 [Gus]
zakim, who is here?
16:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [VrijeUni], JonP
16:03:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Simone, berrueta, RRSAgent, dlrubin, JonP, Gus, Zakim, RalphS
16:03:27 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action14]
16:03:30 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:03:38 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:03:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-minutes.html RalphS
16:04:07 [RalphS]
zakim, list attendees
16:04:07 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [VrijeUni], Elisa_Kendall, mhausenblas, Ralph, JonP, Alistair, Daniel, berrueta, Simone
16:05:22 [Zakim]
-[VrijeUni]
16:05:23 [Zakim]
-JonP
16:06:53 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:07:12 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:07:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-minutes.html RalphS
16:07:42 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-actions.rdf :
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [1]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-23-24
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Antoine, Jon, Daniel respond to the SKOS Use Case reviews, target a decision to publish on 17 April [2]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-36-52
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01] [3]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-37-18
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [4]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-37-35
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action07] [5]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-38-42
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair to write up two alternatives for representing Collections [6]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-53-15
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] --continues [7]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-54-36
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action13] --done [8]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T15-58-15
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html#action14] [9]
16:07:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/03-swd-irc#T16-03-27
16:08:04 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:08:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were [VrijeUni], Elisa_Kendall, mhausenblas, Ralph, JonP, Alistair, Daniel, berrueta, Simone