14:49:16 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:49:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-irc 14:55:33 Alessandro has joined #xproc 14:57:35 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 14:57:42 +Norm 14:57:44 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 14:57:44 Date: 29 Mar 2007 14:57:44 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/29-agenda.html 14:57:44 Meeting number: 61, T-minus 31 weeks 14:57:46 Chair: Norm 14:57:48 Scribe: Norm 14:57:50 ScribeNick: Norm 14:58:17 rlopes has joined #xproc 14:58:41 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:58:41 On the phone I see Norm 14:59:04 + +95247aaaa 14:59:16 Zakim, aaaa is MoZ 14:59:16 +MoZ; got it 14:59:57 +[IPcaller] 14:59:59 zakim, [ is Alessandro 15:00:00 +Alessandro; got it 15:00:33 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:00:33 On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro 15:00:41 +[IPcaller] 15:00:57 zakim, +[ is rlopes 15:00:58 Zakim, [ is rlopes 15:00:58 sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named '+[' 15:00:59 +rlopes; got it 15:01:00 PGrosso has joined #xproc 15:01:08 thanks 15:01:23 +[ArborText] 15:01:45 richard has joined #xproc 15:02:03 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:05 On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso 15:02:31 +??P31 15:02:32 zakim, ? is me 15:02:32 +richard; got it 15:03:00 +Alex_Milows 15:03:14 zakim, please call ht-781 15:03:14 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:03:17 +Ht 15:04:10 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:10 On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso, richard, Alex_Milows, Ht 15:04:26 Present: Norm, Mohamed, Rui, Alessandro, Paul, Richard, Alex, Henry 15:04:34 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:04:35 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/29-agenda.html 15:05:00 Accepted. 15:05:04 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:05:07 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 15:05:07 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/22-minutes.html 15:05:09 Accepted. 15:05:17 Topic: Next meeting: telcon 5 Apr 2007 15:05:35 Henry gives regrets for 5 Apr 15:05:51 Topic: Review of proposed next public working draft 15:05:51 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/WD-xproc-20070405/ 15:06:57 :) 15:08:36 Proposed: We'll publish that document as our next Public Working Draft 15:09:20 Henry: In 4.5, you forgot to make the inheritance edit 15:09:46 Proposed: We'll publish that document as our next Public Working Draft, with the fix suggested by Henry to 4.5 15:10:02 Accepted. 15:10:36 Try's environment stuff is _two_ generations out of date 15:10:57 Mohamed points to a prefix problem in 2.1, http-request 15:11:01 Norm will fix that as well. 15:11:10 I suspect you searched for standard mods, and changed them, but there wasn't any there 15:11:42 s/Norm will/Alex will/ 15:11:54 Norm will fix the environment stuff in try/catch as well. 15:12:04 s/Accepted./SCRIBE REMOVE THIS/ 15:13:16 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/WD-xproc-20070405/#c.store 15:15:18 Some discussion of the new "c:" namespace for standard component inputs and outputs 15:16:23 Proposal: Remove XHTML from the default set of ignored prefixes 15:16:50 Accepted. 15:18:45 Proposed: We will publish the current draft with the modifications described immediately above as our next Public Working Draft 15:19:05 Accepted. 15:19:20 Topic: Use of QNames for error reporting 15:19:52 Norm: I'm suggesting that we identify all the static and dynamic errors with QNames so that implementations can report them. 15:20:52 Henry: I'd like to suggest we use our own namespace. 15:21:09 Proposal: The editor will incorporate this change. 15:21:52 Accepted. 15:22:02 Topic: Review of the step library 15:22:47 Mohamed had some comments: 15:22:54 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2007Mar/0230.html 15:23:37 Mohamed: Join sequences is just an identity with a bunch of inputs. 15:24:15 Henry: I think Mohamed is right. 15:24:29 Norm: I think Mohamed is right as well. 15:25:42 Alex: Are we clear about what multiple inputs do? 15:25:46 Norm: Yes, I think so. 15:26:54 ACTION: Norm to clarify what p:input means when it contains a document and a pipe. 15:27:16 ACTION: Alex to remove join-sequences 15:27:52 Mohamed: The load component uses the phrase "parameter" where an option is actually used. We should fix that. 15:28:10 Norm: Yes, I think we need to clarify that text. 15:29:15 ACTION: Alex to replace 'parameter' to 'option' as appropriate in the explanatory text of the built-in step appendices 15:30:37 Mohamed: Wrt p:load I'm not sure the order of option and output is very good 15:30:52 Norm: The change we made last week freeing those up should fix that 15:30:59 Mohamed: Ah, good 15:31:42 Mohamed: For p:subsequences, what will the XPath be for selecting the first or all but the first documents in the sequence? 15:31:49 q+ to re-iterate my minor point wrt 3.2 insert 15:32:16 Alex: Right now, this doesn't select by order, it selects by contents. 15:33:03 Norm: I think we're going to need additional options for selecting by order 15:33:05 Alex, note that "applies and XPath" in 1.5 Subsequence should be "applies an XPath" 15:33:26 Alex: The real use case here is getting the outputs from xslt 15:33:58 Norm: I propose "start" and "length" with "first" and "last" as magic tokens. 15:34:04 Henry: Surely we don't need "first". 15:34:12 Henry: I'd prefer to use -1 as the magic token. 15:34:20 Norm: We could do it that way. 15:35:35 Norm reviews the fn:subsequence function from XPath2 F&O 15:36:15 Henry: Instead of inventing new syntax, we say that in the context of this evaluation, we say that there's a parameter in the pipeline namespace that's bound to the index of the document. 15:36:37 ...Then you can say $p:position = 3 to get the third. 15:37:08 ...But we'd also have to have $p:last and I wouldn't want to have to implement that in the way that it's implemented in XPath because I don't know what the last document is until slightly after I've found it. 15:38:37 Henry: I sort of like $p:position (a number) and $p:last a boolean. 15:38:48 s/a boolean/(a boolean)/ 15:39:09 Alex: Last is really hard for streaming. 15:39:43 Henry: The problem is you'd have to inspect the XPath to know if you needed to keep track of the positions. 15:40:36 ...I think the right combination is to use p:position, because that's free. Then you can do almost anything you want. 15:41:04 Alex: I don't think I understand. 15:41:54 Henry: We have an option called "last-only" or something like that 15:42:44 Norm: You think in V1, we can get away without being able to get the last three documents? 15:42:46 Henry: Absolutely. 15:42:54 Alex: I think we need to support the common use case. 15:43:29 ...We need last because the XSLT 2 component gives the principle result as the last document. 15:44:06 Alex: No where else do we have a variable bound for XPath, do we? 15:44:40 So I have in mind something like option name="last-handling" with values 'exclude' or 'only' or 'default' 15:45:06 Norm: Alex, do you think you have enough information to try writing this up? 15:45:07 Alex: Yes. 15:45:23 ack ht 15:45:23 ht, you wanted to re-iterate my minor point wrt 3.2 insert 15:45:54 Henry: In 3.2, insert still says that "start" is required but it also provides a default for it in the text. That's an editorial fix. I think it should not be required, there should be a default. 15:46:48 Mohamed: I wanted to reconsider p:map as part of the caching story. 15:47:30 Mohamed: I'd like to have two outputs for XSLT 1 and XSLT 2, one that produces the principle result and another that produces the sequence of alternate outputs 15:48:45 Mohamed: I'd like to be able to get the primary output even if one of the secondary outputs isn't well formed. 15:48:50 Norm: I'm not sure about that part 15:49:17 Alex: I like the idea, but is this inconsistent with XSLT2? 15:50:55 Henry: I like Mohamed's alternative better than forcing the principle result to be last. 15:51:37 Norm: I'm happy with the idea. Anyone uncomfortable about it? 15:53:49 Richard: Does this mean that exsl:result-document won't write the results to disk? 15:53:53 Norm: Yes, I think that's what I mean. 15:54:19 Henry: I think we're going to have to say something about the safety of XProc. Consider what we'd say if we needed a "Security Considerations" section. 15:54:52 ...I'd like to be able to say that conformant implementations will never write to disk unless you can see it in the pipeline. 15:54:58 Richard: Surely that depends on the components. 15:55:10 Henry: Yes, but all of the components specified in our document should be safe, except for store. 15:55:52 Richard: But we're talking about extensions to XSLT. Surely a language that allows extension can't be prevented from writing to disk. 15:56:41 Alex: I think for XSLT 1, we can say that the alternate documents appear on the port. We don't have to say anything about whether or not XSLT also serialized them. 15:57:52 Henry: It sounds like we have agreement about the secondary port, but we need to come back to the discussion of safety of components. 15:58:34 Topic: Any other business? 15:59:19 None. 15:59:27 Adjourned. 15:59:28 -richard 15:59:30 -Ht 15:59:31 -Alex_Milows 15:59:32 -rlopes 15:59:33 -PGrosso 15:59:34 -Norm 15:59:35 -MoZ 15:59:38 rrsagent, please make logs world-visible 15:59:38 -Alessandro 15:59:39 alexmilowski has left #xproc 15:59:39 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:59:40 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 15:59:41 Attendees were Norm, +95247aaaa, MoZ, [IPcaller], Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso, richard, Alex_Milows, Ht 15:59:41 PGrosso has left #xproc 15:59:43 alexmilowski has left #xproc 15:59:43 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:59:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-minutes.html Norm 16:00:01 I want to end up with something such as "Except for the p:store component, implementations SHOULD NOT implement the steps described in this spec. in a way which has side-effects outside the pipeline, e.g. by writing to disk" 16:01:10 ht, that's an excelent start for the debate on caching next time !! 16:42:22 ht? 18:13:50 Norm has joined #xproc 18:13:57 rrsagent, bye 18:13:57 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-actions.rdf : 18:13:57 ACTION: Norm to clarify what p:input means when it contains a document and a pipe. [1] 18:13:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-irc#T15-26-54 18:13:57 ACTION: Alex to remove join-sequences [2] 18:13:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-irc#T15-27-16 18:13:57 ACTION: Alex to replace 'parameter' to 'option' as appropriate in the explanatory text of the built-in step appendices [3] 18:13:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-xproc-irc#T15-29-15 18:13:59 zakime, bye