IRC log of xproc on 2007-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:16 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:55:33 [Alessandro]
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14:57:35 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:42 [Zakim]
14:57:44 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:57:44 [Norm]
Date: 29 Mar 2007
14:57:44 [Norm]
14:57:44 [Norm]
Meeting number: 61, T-minus 31 weeks
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Chair: Norm
14:57:48 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:57:50 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:58:17 [rlopes]
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14:58:41 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm
14:59:04 [Zakim]
+ +95247aaaa
14:59:16 [MoZ]
Zakim, aaaa is MoZ
14:59:16 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
14:59:57 [Zakim]
14:59:59 [Alessandro]
zakim, [ is Alessandro
15:00:00 [Zakim]
+Alessandro; got it
15:00:33 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro
15:00:41 [Zakim]
15:00:57 [Norm]
zakim, +[ is rlopes
15:00:58 [MoZ]
Zakim, [ is rlopes
15:00:58 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named '+['
15:00:59 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:01:00 [PGrosso]
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15:01:23 [Zakim]
15:01:45 [richard]
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15:02:03 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso
15:02:31 [Zakim]
15:02:32 [richard]
zakim, ? is me
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:03:00 [Zakim]
15:03:14 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
15:03:14 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
15:03:17 [Zakim]
15:04:10 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, MoZ, Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso, richard, Alex_Milows, Ht
15:04:26 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Mohamed, Rui, Alessandro, Paul, Richard, Alex, Henry
15:04:34 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:04:35 [Norm]
15:05:00 [Norm]
15:05:04 [alexmilowski]
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15:05:07 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:05:07 [Norm]
15:05:09 [Norm]
15:05:17 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 5 Apr 2007
15:05:35 [Norm]
Henry gives regrets for 5 Apr
15:05:51 [Norm]
Topic: Review of proposed next public working draft
15:05:51 [Norm]
15:06:57 [alexmilowski]
15:08:36 [Norm]
Proposed: We'll publish that document as our next Public Working Draft
15:09:20 [Norm]
Henry: In 4.5, you forgot to make the inheritance edit
15:09:46 [Norm]
Proposed: We'll publish that document as our next Public Working Draft, with the fix suggested by Henry to 4.5
15:10:02 [Norm]
15:10:36 [ht]
Try's environment stuff is _two_ generations out of date
15:10:57 [Norm]
Mohamed points to a prefix problem in 2.1, http-request
15:11:01 [Norm]
Norm will fix that as well.
15:11:10 [ht]
I suspect you searched for standard mods, and changed them, but there wasn't any there
15:11:42 [Norm]
s/Norm will/Alex will/
15:11:54 [Norm]
Norm will fix the environment stuff in try/catch as well.
15:12:04 [Norm]
15:13:16 [Norm]
15:15:18 [Norm]
Some discussion of the new "c:" namespace for standard component inputs and outputs
15:16:23 [Norm]
Proposal: Remove XHTML from the default set of ignored prefixes
15:16:50 [Norm]
15:18:45 [Norm]
Proposed: We will publish the current draft with the modifications described immediately above as our next Public Working Draft
15:19:05 [Norm]
15:19:20 [Norm]
Topic: Use of QNames for error reporting
15:19:52 [Norm]
Norm: I'm suggesting that we identify all the static and dynamic errors with QNames so that implementations can report them.
15:20:52 [Norm]
Henry: I'd like to suggest we use our own namespace.
15:21:09 [Norm]
Proposal: The editor will incorporate this change.
15:21:52 [Norm]
15:22:02 [Norm]
Topic: Review of the step library
15:22:47 [Norm]
Mohamed had some comments:
15:22:54 [Norm]
15:23:37 [Norm]
Mohamed: Join sequences is just an identity with a bunch of inputs.
15:24:15 [Norm]
Henry: I think Mohamed is right.
15:24:29 [Norm]
Norm: I think Mohamed is right as well.
15:25:42 [Norm]
Alex: Are we clear about what multiple inputs do?
15:25:46 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think so.
15:26:54 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to clarify what p:input means when it contains a document and a pipe.
15:27:16 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to remove join-sequences
15:27:52 [Norm]
Mohamed: The load component uses the phrase "parameter" where an option is actually used. We should fix that.
15:28:10 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think we need to clarify that text.
15:29:15 [ht]
ACTION: Alex to replace 'parameter' to 'option' as appropriate in the explanatory text of the built-in step appendices
15:30:37 [ht]
Mohamed: Wrt p:load I'm not sure the order of option and output is very good
15:30:52 [ht]
Norm: The change we made last week freeing those up should fix that
15:30:59 [ht]
Mohamed: Ah, good
15:31:42 [Norm]
Mohamed: For p:subsequences, what will the XPath be for selecting the first or all but the first documents in the sequence?
15:31:49 [ht]
q+ to re-iterate my minor point wrt 3.2 insert
15:32:16 [Norm]
Alex: Right now, this doesn't select by order, it selects by contents.
15:33:03 [Norm]
Norm: I think we're going to need additional options for selecting by order
15:33:05 [ht]
Alex, note that "applies and XPath" in 1.5 Subsequence should be "applies an XPath"
15:33:26 [Norm]
Alex: The real use case here is getting the outputs from xslt
15:33:58 [Norm]
Norm: I propose "start" and "length" with "first" and "last" as magic tokens.
15:34:04 [Norm]
Henry: Surely we don't need "first".
15:34:12 [Norm]
Henry: I'd prefer to use -1 as the magic token.
15:34:20 [Norm]
Norm: We could do it that way.
15:35:35 [Norm]
Norm reviews the fn:subsequence function from XPath2 F&O
15:36:15 [Norm]
Henry: Instead of inventing new syntax, we say that in the context of this evaluation, we say that there's a parameter in the pipeline namespace that's bound to the index of the document.
15:36:37 [Norm]
...Then you can say $p:position = 3 to get the third.
15:37:08 [Norm]
...But we'd also have to have $p:last and I wouldn't want to have to implement that in the way that it's implemented in XPath because I don't know what the last document is until slightly after I've found it.
15:38:37 [Norm]
Henry: I sort of like $p:position (a number) and $p:last a boolean.
15:38:48 [Norm]
s/a boolean/(a boolean)/
15:39:09 [Norm]
Alex: Last is really hard for streaming.
15:39:43 [Norm]
Henry: The problem is you'd have to inspect the XPath to know if you needed to keep track of the positions.
15:40:36 [Norm]
...I think the right combination is to use p:position, because that's free. Then you can do almost anything you want.
15:41:04 [Norm]
Alex: I don't think I understand.
15:41:54 [Norm]
Henry: We have an option called "last-only" or something like that
15:42:44 [Norm]
Norm: You think in V1, we can get away without being able to get the last three documents?
15:42:46 [Norm]
Henry: Absolutely.
15:42:54 [Norm]
Alex: I think we need to support the common use case.
15:43:29 [Norm]
...We need last because the XSLT 2 component gives the principle result as the last document.
15:44:06 [Norm]
Alex: No where else do we have a variable bound for XPath, do we?
15:44:40 [ht]
So I have in mind something like option name="last-handling" with values 'exclude' or 'only' or 'default'
15:45:06 [Norm]
Norm: Alex, do you think you have enough information to try writing this up?
15:45:07 [Norm]
Alex: Yes.
15:45:23 [ht]
ack ht
15:45:23 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to re-iterate my minor point wrt 3.2 insert
15:45:54 [Norm]
Henry: In 3.2, insert still says that "start" is required but it also provides a default for it in the text. That's an editorial fix. I think it should not be required, there should be a default.
15:46:48 [Norm]
Mohamed: I wanted to reconsider p:map as part of the caching story.
15:47:30 [Norm]
Mohamed: I'd like to have two outputs for XSLT 1 and XSLT 2, one that produces the principle result and another that produces the sequence of alternate outputs
15:48:45 [Norm]
Mohamed: I'd like to be able to get the primary output even if one of the secondary outputs isn't well formed.
15:48:50 [Norm]
Norm: I'm not sure about that part
15:49:17 [Norm]
Alex: I like the idea, but is this inconsistent with XSLT2?
15:50:55 [Norm]
Henry: I like Mohamed's alternative better than forcing the principle result to be last.
15:51:37 [Norm]
Norm: I'm happy with the idea. Anyone uncomfortable about it?
15:53:49 [Norm]
Richard: Does this mean that exsl:result-document won't write the results to disk?
15:53:53 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think that's what I mean.
15:54:19 [Norm]
Henry: I think we're going to have to say something about the safety of XProc. Consider what we'd say if we needed a "Security Considerations" section.
15:54:52 [Norm]
...I'd like to be able to say that conformant implementations will never write to disk unless you can see it in the pipeline.
15:54:58 [Norm]
Richard: Surely that depends on the components.
15:55:10 [Norm]
Henry: Yes, but all of the components specified in our document should be safe, except for store.
15:55:52 [Norm]
Richard: But we're talking about extensions to XSLT. Surely a language that allows extension can't be prevented from writing to disk.
15:56:41 [Norm]
Alex: I think for XSLT 1, we can say that the alternate documents appear on the port. We don't have to say anything about whether or not XSLT also serialized them.
15:57:52 [Norm]
Henry: It sounds like we have agreement about the secondary port, but we need to come back to the discussion of safety of components.
15:58:34 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:59:19 [Norm]
15:59:27 [Norm]
15:59:28 [Zakim]
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15:59:38 [Norm]
rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
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XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Norm, +95247aaaa, MoZ, [IPcaller], Alessandro, rlopes, PGrosso, richard, Alex_Milows, Ht
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15:59:43 [Norm]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:59:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:00:01 [ht]
I want to end up with something such as "Except for the p:store component, implementations SHOULD NOT implement the steps described in this spec. in a way which has side-effects outside the pipeline, e.g. by writing to disk"
16:01:10 [MoZ]
ht, that's an excelent start for the debate on caching next time !!
16:42:22 [Norm]
18:13:50 [Norm]
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rrsagent, bye
18:13:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
18:13:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to clarify what p:input means when it contains a document and a pipe. [1]
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recorded in
18:13:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to remove join-sequences [2]
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recorded in
18:13:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to replace 'parameter' to 'option' as appropriate in the explanatory text of the built-in step appendices [3]
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recorded in
18:13:59 [Norm]
zakime, bye