IRC log of grddl-wg on 2007-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:59 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg

15:06:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-grddl-wg-irc

15:07:13 [HarryH]

Jeremy, harry, and john-l have made it to the phone.

15:07:39 [HarryH]

Now chime has made it to the phone.

15:07:50 [HarryH]

I recommend people try again.

15:09:32 [jjc-scribe]

roll call: jeremy, chime, dan, john-l, harry

15:09:36 [HarryH]

Meeting: GRDDL Working Group

15:09:41 [HarryH]

Chair: Harry Halpin

15:09:46 [HarryH]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda

15:09:52 [HarryH]

Scribe: jjc

15:10:03 [HarryH]

Anyone want to be on the phone who can't make it?

15:10:05 [HarryH]

Brian?

15:10:08 [briansuda]

i am here

15:10:17 [jjc-scribe]

brian on the phone

15:10:28 [HarryH]

Zakim, next item

15:10:28 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-03-21T11:00-0400" taken up

15:10:38 [DanC]

except that today's the 28th

15:10:58 [HarryH]

Hmmm...maybe that wasn't checked into CVS.

15:11:00 [HarryH]

PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly -- 21 March 2007 as a true record

15:11:08 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/20http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html07Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html

15:11:29 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html

15:12:58 [HarryH]

At least BrianS, jjc, HarryH, DanC, simone, rreck and Chime were there.

15:13:37 [HarryH]

ACTION: jjc to correct the minutes from 21 March 2007 to get full list of attendees.

15:14:23 [HarryH]

RESOLVED: to approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html pending jjc's corrections to attendee list.

15:14:41 [HarryH]

#

15:14:41 [HarryH]

* PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 4 April 11:00-0500. scribe volunteer?

15:14:41 [HarryH]

# Patent Policy

15:14:54 [HarryH]

PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 4 April 11:00-0500. scribe volunteer?

15:15:05 [HarryH]

John-l will scribe.

15:15:11 [HarryH]

Zakim, next item

15:15:11 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Patent Policy" taken up

15:16:00 [HarryH]

Samsung and Citigroup hadn't filled out the web-form.

15:17:53 [HarryH]

ACTION: To communicate to Ian and Steve to figure out if Citigroup and Samsung not being in good standing.

15:18:23 [HarryH]

agendum 3. "W3C Fellows Program"

15:20:54 [HarryH]

We may have more resources thanks to W3C Fellows Program.

15:21:11 [HarryH]

agendum 4. GRDDL Spec: Last Call

15:21:37 [DanC]

WITHDRAWN: ACTION: Ian to clarify profileTransformation for JJC

15:22:02 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/0022.html

15:22:08 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/0022.html Web architecture best practices, media-types, and #issue-output-formats

15:23:25 [iand]

iand has joined #grddl-wg

15:25:11 [jjc-scribe]

q+ to offer my suggestion

15:26:53 [jjc-scribe]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079

15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]

> [[

15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]

> The transformation property relates the XPath document nodes

15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]

> to an RDF graph. These need not use RDF/XML as an intermediate

15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]

> stage. To give an XSLT example, see testlist1#atomttl1, in which

15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]

> the attribute-value media-type="text/rdf+n3" on the xsl:output

15:27:10 [jjc-scribe]

> element indicates a different media type, from the default

15:27:12 [jjc-scribe]

> value, within GRDDL, of "application/rdf+xml". GRDDL agents

15:27:14 [jjc-scribe]

> that can process such a media type, can then produce an RDF graph

15:27:16 [jjc-scribe]

> in accordance with the media type. Non-XSLT transforms may

15:27:18 [jjc-scribe]

> indicate the RDF graph in some other, unspecified, fashion.

15:27:20 [jjc-scribe]

> ]]

15:27:22 [jjc-scribe]

>

15:28:36 [HarryH]

ACTION: DanC to look at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079.

15:28:50 [HarryH]

Chime believes jjc's text addresses as his concerns.

15:29:22 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/unknown-media-type

15:29:40 [DanC]

1.239 has a raw paste of the text in 0079, with a @@todo

15:29:45 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/empty

15:31:03 [HarryH]

Jeremy's previous non-normative suggestions on GRDDL Spec re validation and caching

15:31:18 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Feb/0243.html

15:33:56 [HarryH]

I could see some informative text suggesting that you really try to minimize access to DTDs, namespace docs, etc.

15:34:39 [jjc-scribe]

q+ to say html dtd needed

15:36:00 [HarryH]

ack jjc-scribe

15:36:48 [HarryH]

DanC: Stick the namespace in your document explicitly and not rely on DTD

15:36:56 [HarryH]

Chime: Does this address entity reference concern?

15:36:59 [DanC]

I'm OK to to take an action around "stick the namespace in your document ; don't rely on getting it from the DTD"

15:37:07 [HarryH]

jjc: Something will go wrong if you don't have DTD in there.

15:37:13 [HarryH]

DanC: This would show up at GRDDL level.

15:37:42 [jjc-scribe]

jjc: entity in html gets transformed into rdf content

15:38:59 [HarryH]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:39:07 [HarryH]

I don't understand "who's on the phone"

15:40:53 [HarryH]

ACTION: jjc to take action to draft text to "don't write transforms that depend on whether or not its validated"

15:41:18 [HarryH]

Validation is not explicitly required by GRDDL.

15:42:27 [HarryH]

My suggestion is that we add an explicit sentence in Faithful Infoset saying that "Validation is not explicitly required by GRDDL."

15:42:34 [jjc-scribe]

text at end of section 6 in spec

15:42:42 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#txforms

15:42:53 [chimezie]

I think commentary on entity issues should be placed after the faithful infoset section

15:43:32 [jjc-scribe]

ACTION: jjc to draft test cases on validation

15:44:33 [HarryH]

ACTION: Chime send out "We're still thinking about your comments, Stefano"

15:46:19 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0071.html

15:46:33 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0078.html

15:46:46 [HarryH]

jjc: I've added Jena tests to the pending list.

15:46:54 [DanC]

"are you satisfied?" msg to ERH: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0078.html

15:47:03 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#security3

15:47:46 [HarryH]

ACTION: jjc to update Elliotte with the fact that the tests that address his concerns are in pending.

15:47:54 [HarryH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0077.html

15:48:24 [HarryH]

Tony did say: "Best close it out here. :)

15:48:24 [HarryH]

"

15:49:22 [HarryH]

Chime: thinks the informative rules help here.

15:50:08 [chimezie]

?RDFXML gspec:rdfParse ?G.

15:50:10 [chimezie]

in particular

15:52:21 [DanC]

"If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR."

15:55:32 [chimezie]

" * Whenever the RDF/XML spec says that an RDF/XML document with root node ROOT represents a graph G, we have ?ROOT gspec:rdfParse ?G.

15:55:33 [chimezie]

Some from XPath and XSLT:"

15:58:48 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-grddl-primer-20061002/hCalendar.png

15:58:50 [HarryH]

ACTION: DanC to respond to Tony Hammond

15:59:06 [HarryH]

ACTION: Chime to make a visual representation of RDF graph and RDF/XML difference, HarryH to check in when done.

15:59:12 [HarryH]

ACTION: Chime to make a visual representation of RDF graph and RDF/XML difference, HarryH to check in when done for Primer

15:59:14 [jjc-scribe]

jeremy says that the above picture in primer seems to suffer the problem

15:59:33 [DanC]

(the diagrams in the primer were made with MS ppt, I believe. I wonder if chime's diagram will look funky by comparison)

16:03:36 [jjc-scribe]

discussion of oracle and product shipping

16:03:50 [HarryH]

ACTION: Ask Susie about GRDDL and Oracle deployment plans, and possible comments on spec if they actually read spec..

16:07:28 [DanC]

1.240 <p class="ed">@@<a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079.html">27 March from jjc</a></p>

16:08:25 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#loopx

16:08:41 [DanC]

(if I haven't ack'd a comment by updating http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec in some way, please assume I forgot your comment and send it again next week)

16:13:14 [chimezie]

The test case should call out to the spec about the right of the agent to follow a policy that doesn't allow GRDDL mechanism loops

16:13:25 [DanC]

right

16:13:50 [HarryH]

ACTION: jjc to modify #loopx to relate to discussion about SHOULD.

16:14:08 [HarryH]

Zakim, magically go to Test Cases as Rec agendum.

16:14:09 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #grddl-wg

16:14:20 [DanC]

Zakim, this is grddl

16:14:20 [Zakim]

sorry, DanC, I do not see a conference named 'grddl' in progress or scheduled at this time

16:14:21 [chimezie]

where is harry's wand?

16:14:21 [HarryH]

agendum 7. Test Cases as Rec?

16:14:34 [DanC]

(Zakim has not regained all of his marbles)

16:14:49 [HarryH]

Should we Rec Test-Cases or not?

16:15:28 [HarryH]

Agendum 9. Test-Cases

16:15:33 [HarryH]

ACTION: Chime to fix the relative URL problem

16:16:10 [HarryH]

Chime: A test-documet with internal anchors that are full URIs to test items.

16:16:13 [DanC]

(I was trying to figure out who has the ball on test cases publication. Harry, I recommend you track the critical path much more clearly, at least in weekly agendas)

16:16:16 [jjc-scribe]

chime - test doc has anchor to sections

16:16:26 [jjc-scribe]

has links to test material to test directory

16:16:43 [chimezie]

1) A test document

16:16:50 [jjc-scribe]

also has URIs for test instances that will be in GRDDL results

16:16:53 [HarryH]

(I thought it was pretty clear and the working draft had been published.)

16:16:54 [chimezie]

with it's own uri and fragments to test section

16:17:20 [chimezie]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1

16:17:48 [chimezie]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1

16:18:03 [chimezie]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/atom-grddl.xml

16:18:06 [DanC]

(eek. I advise against minting http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1 ; if it's been minted, I advise against further investment in it)

16:18:20 [DanC]

(eek. I advise against http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/atom-grddl.xml too)

16:18:20 [chimezie]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/atom-grddl.xml

16:18:50 [DanC]

just keep http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1

16:20:23 [chimezie]

so the test material should always be the uri in the test 'repository' - grddl-wg/td/...

16:24:21 [jjc-scribe]

Danc suggests dropping fragments in munging of testlist1 into TR space

16:24:53 [jjc-scribe]

in order to avoid having multiple uris for same resource

16:28:42 [HarryH]

Chime: I feel like we have consensus on test material.

16:28:43 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/byIssue#I4.6-003

16:29:01 [HarryH]

Chime: Feels strongly that we unify URIs for human and machine-readable purposes.

16:29:02 [jjc-scribe]

Description: (informative) <I4.6/Manifest003#test>

16:29:04 [john-l]

<.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1> a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Document>; rdfs:sameAs <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1.html#atomttl1> ?

16:29:22 [jjc-scribe]

links explicitly to http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/I4.6/Manifest003#test

16:30:27 [jjc-scribe]

for the earl ouput chime is ambivalent about which uri to use?

16:30:38 [DanC]

(I look forward to progress on: ACTION: jjc to produce EARL for his implementation, and then sort out multiple test passing in his EARL. )

16:32:14 [john-l]

<http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1> a <http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#Test> ?

16:32:42 [HarryH]

We've published: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/

16:32:46 [DanC]

q+ to ask that somebody announce http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-grddl-tests-20070328/

16:33:05 [jjc-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/projects.xml

16:33:06 [HarryH]

Now we need to fix the relative URI in the next publication of test cases.

16:35:50 [DanC]

options are 404 (NO), 410 (maybe), 303 ...

16:36:04 [DanC]

301 moved permanently works for me

16:36:51 [HarryH]

ACTION: jjc to manufacture .htaccess file for test cases using 301 "Moved Permanently" and e-mail Jean Gui.

16:37:20 [DanC]

the action is not just to email jean-gui; it's to get the redirect installed, with jean-gui's help

16:37:54 [HarryH]

ACTION: Chime to announce to semantic-web@w3.org that GRDDL Test Cases is a WD.

16:39:50 [DanC]

ADJOURN

16:39:53 [HarryH]

Meeting Adjourned

16:40:02 [DanC]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:40:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC

16:40:11 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

16:40:16 [iand]

iand has left #grddl-wg

16:57:08 [HarryH]

Ack, just lost you.

16:57:11 [DanC]

oh well, harry; I'll tell you the story another time

16:57:13 [HarryH]

Anyways, I forwarded the e-mail.

16:57:16 [DanC]

thansk

16:57:20 [HarryH]

There's another one, wait a sec.

16:57:26 [HarryH]

The last thing to mention is re HASTAC.

16:57:37 [HarryH]

Are you happy giving a W3C Recruiting talk on Thursday.

16:57:37 [DanC]

oh. call me back re hastac?

16:57:46 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop