IRC log of grddl-wg on 2007-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:06:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-grddl-wg-irc
15:07:13 [HarryH]
Jeremy, harry, and john-l have made it to the phone.
15:07:39 [HarryH]
Now chime has made it to the phone.
15:07:50 [HarryH]
I recommend people try again.
15:09:32 [jjc-scribe]
roll call: jeremy, chime, dan, john-l, harry
15:09:36 [HarryH]
Meeting: GRDDL Working Group
15:09:41 [HarryH]
Chair: Harry Halpin
15:09:46 [HarryH]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
15:09:52 [HarryH]
Scribe: jjc
15:10:03 [HarryH]
Anyone want to be on the phone who can't make it?
15:10:05 [HarryH]
Brian?
15:10:08 [briansuda]
i am here
15:10:17 [jjc-scribe]
brian on the phone
15:10:28 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:10:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-03-21T11:00-0400" taken up
15:10:38 [DanC]
except that today's the 28th
15:10:58 [HarryH]
Hmmm...maybe that wasn't checked into CVS.
15:11:00 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly -- 21 March 2007 as a true record
15:11:08 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/20http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html07Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html
15:11:29 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html
15:12:58 [HarryH]
At least BrianS, jjc, HarryH, DanC, simone, rreck and Chime were there.
15:13:37 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to correct the minutes from 21 March 2007 to get full list of attendees.
15:14:23 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: to approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/att-0139/21-grddl-wg-minutes.html pending jjc's corrections to attendee list.
15:14:41 [HarryH]
#
15:14:41 [HarryH]
* PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 4 April 11:00-0500. scribe volunteer?
15:14:41 [HarryH]
# Patent Policy
15:14:54 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 4 April 11:00-0500. scribe volunteer?
15:15:05 [HarryH]
John-l will scribe.
15:15:11 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:15:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Patent Policy" taken up
15:16:00 [HarryH]
Samsung and Citigroup hadn't filled out the web-form.
15:17:53 [HarryH]
ACTION: To communicate to Ian and Steve to figure out if Citigroup and Samsung not being in good standing.
15:18:23 [HarryH]
agendum 3. "W3C Fellows Program"
15:20:54 [HarryH]
We may have more resources thanks to W3C Fellows Program.
15:21:11 [HarryH]
agendum 4. GRDDL Spec: Last Call
15:21:37 [DanC]
WITHDRAWN: ACTION: Ian to clarify profileTransformation for JJC
15:22:02 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/0022.html
15:22:08 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Mar/0022.html Web architecture best practices, media-types, and #issue-output-formats
15:23:25 [iand]
iand has joined #grddl-wg
15:25:11 [jjc-scribe]
q+ to offer my suggestion
15:26:53 [jjc-scribe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079
15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]
> [[
15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]
> The transformation property relates the XPath document nodes
15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]
> to an RDF graph. These need not use RDF/XML as an intermediate
15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]
> stage. To give an XSLT example, see testlist1#atomttl1, in which
15:27:09 [jjc-scribe]
> the attribute-value media-type="text/rdf+n3" on the xsl:output
15:27:10 [jjc-scribe]
> element indicates a different media type, from the default
15:27:12 [jjc-scribe]
> value, within GRDDL, of "application/rdf+xml". GRDDL agents
15:27:14 [jjc-scribe]
> that can process such a media type, can then produce an RDF graph
15:27:16 [jjc-scribe]
> in accordance with the media type. Non-XSLT transforms may
15:27:18 [jjc-scribe]
> indicate the RDF graph in some other, unspecified, fashion.
15:27:20 [jjc-scribe]
> ]]
15:27:22 [jjc-scribe]
>
15:28:36 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to look at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079.
15:28:50 [HarryH]
Chime believes jjc's text addresses as his concerns.
15:29:22 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/unknown-media-type
15:29:40 [DanC]
1.239 has a raw paste of the text in 0079, with a @@todo
15:29:45 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/empty
15:31:03 [HarryH]
Jeremy's previous non-normative suggestions on GRDDL Spec re validation and caching
15:31:18 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Feb/0243.html
15:33:56 [HarryH]
I could see some informative text suggesting that you really try to minimize access to DTDs, namespace docs, etc.
15:34:39 [jjc-scribe]
q+ to say html dtd needed
15:36:00 [HarryH]
ack jjc-scribe
15:36:48 [HarryH]
DanC: Stick the namespace in your document explicitly and not rely on DTD
15:36:56 [HarryH]
Chime: Does this address entity reference concern?
15:36:59 [DanC]
I'm OK to to take an action around "stick the namespace in your document ; don't rely on getting it from the DTD"
15:37:07 [HarryH]
jjc: Something will go wrong if you don't have DTD in there.
15:37:13 [HarryH]
DanC: This would show up at GRDDL level.
15:37:42 [jjc-scribe]
jjc: entity in html gets transformed into rdf content
15:38:59 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:39:07 [HarryH]
I don't understand "who's on the phone"
15:40:53 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to take action to draft text to "don't write transforms that depend on whether or not its validated"
15:41:18 [HarryH]
Validation is not explicitly required by GRDDL.
15:42:27 [HarryH]
My suggestion is that we add an explicit sentence in Faithful Infoset saying that "Validation is not explicitly required by GRDDL."
15:42:34 [jjc-scribe]
text at end of section 6 in spec
15:42:42 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#txforms
15:42:53 [chimezie]
I think commentary on entity issues should be placed after the faithful infoset section
15:43:32 [jjc-scribe]
ACTION: jjc to draft test cases on validation
15:44:33 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime send out "We're still thinking about your comments, Stefano"
15:46:19 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0071.html
15:46:33 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0078.html
15:46:46 [HarryH]
jjc: I've added Jena tests to the pending list.
15:46:54 [DanC]
"are you satisfied?" msg to ERH: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0078.html
15:47:03 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#security3
15:47:46 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to update Elliotte with the fact that the tests that address his concerns are in pending.
15:47:54 [HarryH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0077.html
15:48:24 [HarryH]
Tony did say: "Best close it out here. :)
15:48:24 [HarryH]
"
15:49:22 [HarryH]
Chime: thinks the informative rules help here.
15:50:08 [chimezie]
?RDFXML gspec:rdfParse ?G.
15:50:10 [chimezie]
in particular
15:52:21 [DanC]
"If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR."
15:55:32 [chimezie]
" * Whenever the RDF/XML spec says that an RDF/XML document with root node ROOT represents a graph G, we have ?ROOT gspec:rdfParse ?G.
15:55:33 [chimezie]
Some from XPath and XSLT:"
15:58:48 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-grddl-primer-20061002/hCalendar.png
15:58:50 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to respond to Tony Hammond
15:59:06 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime to make a visual representation of RDF graph and RDF/XML difference, HarryH to check in when done.
15:59:12 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime to make a visual representation of RDF graph and RDF/XML difference, HarryH to check in when done for Primer
15:59:14 [jjc-scribe]
jeremy says that the above picture in primer seems to suffer the problem
15:59:33 [DanC]
(the diagrams in the primer were made with MS ppt, I believe. I wonder if chime's diagram will look funky by comparison)
16:03:36 [jjc-scribe]
discussion of oracle and product shipping
16:03:50 [HarryH]
ACTION: Ask Susie about GRDDL and Oracle deployment plans, and possible comments on spec if they actually read spec..
16:07:28 [DanC]
1.240 <p class="ed">@@<a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0079.html">27 March from jjc</a></p>
16:08:25 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#loopx
16:08:41 [DanC]
(if I haven't ack'd a comment by updating http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec in some way, please assume I forgot your comment and send it again next week)
16:13:14 [chimezie]
The test case should call out to the spec about the right of the agent to follow a policy that doesn't allow GRDDL mechanism loops
16:13:25 [DanC]
right
16:13:50 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to modify #loopx to relate to discussion about SHOULD.
16:14:08 [HarryH]
Zakim, magically go to Test Cases as Rec agendum.
16:14:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #grddl-wg
16:14:20 [DanC]
Zakim, this is grddl
16:14:20 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not see a conference named 'grddl' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:14:21 [chimezie]
where is harry's wand?
16:14:21 [HarryH]
agendum 7. Test Cases as Rec?
16:14:34 [DanC]
(Zakim has not regained all of his marbles)
16:14:49 [HarryH]
Should we Rec Test-Cases or not?
16:15:28 [HarryH]
Agendum 9. Test-Cases
16:15:33 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime to fix the relative URL problem
16:16:10 [HarryH]
Chime: A test-documet with internal anchors that are full URIs to test items.
16:16:13 [DanC]
(I was trying to figure out who has the ball on test cases publication. Harry, I recommend you track the critical path much more clearly, at least in weekly agendas)
16:16:16 [jjc-scribe]
chime - test doc has anchor to sections
16:16:26 [jjc-scribe]
has links to test material to test directory
16:16:43 [chimezie]
1) A test document
16:16:50 [jjc-scribe]
also has URIs for test instances that will be in GRDDL results
16:16:53 [HarryH]
(I thought it was pretty clear and the working draft had been published.)
16:16:54 [chimezie]
with it's own uri and fragments to test section
16:17:20 [chimezie]
http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1
16:17:48 [chimezie]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1
16:18:03 [chimezie]
http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/atom-grddl.xml
16:18:06 [DanC]
(eek. I advise against minting http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1 ; if it's been minted, I advise against further investment in it)
16:18:20 [DanC]
(eek. I advise against http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/atom-grddl.xml too)
16:18:20 [chimezie]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/atom-grddl.xml
16:18:50 [DanC]
just keep http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1
16:20:23 [chimezie]
so the test material should always be the uri in the test 'repository' - grddl-wg/td/...
16:24:21 [jjc-scribe]
Danc suggests dropping fragments in munging of testlist1 into TR space
16:24:53 [jjc-scribe]
in order to avoid having multiple uris for same resource
16:28:42 [HarryH]
Chime: I feel like we have consensus on test material.
16:28:43 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/byIssue#I4.6-003
16:29:01 [HarryH]
Chime: Feels strongly that we unify URIs for human and machine-readable purposes.
16:29:02 [jjc-scribe]
Description: (informative) <I4.6/Manifest003#test>
16:29:04 [john-l]
<.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/#atomttl1> a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Document>; rdfs:sameAs <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1.html#atomttl1> ?
16:29:22 [jjc-scribe]
links explicitly to http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/I4.6/Manifest003#test
16:30:27 [jjc-scribe]
for the earl ouput chime is ambivalent about which uri to use?
16:30:38 [DanC]
(I look forward to progress on: ACTION: jjc to produce EARL for his implementation, and then sort out multiple test passing in his EARL. )
16:32:14 [john-l]
<http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#atomttl1> a <http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#Test> ?
16:32:42 [HarryH]
We've published: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/
16:32:46 [DanC]
q+ to ask that somebody announce http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-grddl-tests-20070328/
16:33:05 [jjc-scribe]
http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/projects.xml
16:33:06 [HarryH]
Now we need to fix the relative URI in the next publication of test cases.
16:35:50 [DanC]
options are 404 (NO), 410 (maybe), 303 ...
16:36:04 [DanC]
301 moved permanently works for me
16:36:51 [HarryH]
ACTION: jjc to manufacture .htaccess file for test cases using 301 "Moved Permanently" and e-mail Jean Gui.
16:37:20 [DanC]
the action is not just to email jean-gui; it's to get the redirect installed, with jean-gui's help
16:37:54 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime to announce to semantic-web@w3.org that GRDDL Test Cases is a WD.
16:39:50 [DanC]
ADJOURN
16:39:53 [HarryH]
Meeting Adjourned
16:40:02 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
16:40:11 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:40:16 [iand]
iand has left #grddl-wg
16:57:08 [HarryH]
Ack, just lost you.
16:57:11 [DanC]
oh well, harry; I'll tell you the story another time
16:57:13 [HarryH]
Anyways, I forwarded the e-mail.
16:57:16 [DanC]
thansk
16:57:20 [HarryH]
There's another one, wait a sec.
16:57:26 [HarryH]
The last thing to mention is re HASTAC.
16:57:37 [HarryH]
Are you happy giving a W3C Recruiting talk on Thursday.
16:57:37 [DanC]
oh. call me back re hastac?
16:57:46 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop