12:51:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
12:51:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-irc
12:51:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
12:51:46 <mhausenblas> zakim, list conferences 
12:51:46 <Zakim> I see Team_SysWeb()8:00AM active
12:51:47 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are MWI_DDWG()9:00AM, WS_Team()9:00AM, SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM
12:52:08 <mhausenblas> zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
12:52:08 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
12:52:27 <mhausenblas> Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-03-26, 13:00 UTC 
12:53:45 <mhausenblas> agenda+ RDFa Test Cases [mhausenblas]
12:53:59 <mhausenblas> agenda?
12:54:12 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #rdfa
12:56:14 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
12:57:13 <RalphS> did Elias post minutes of last week?
12:57:45 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-03-19
12:57:55 <RalphS> well, those are still raw/unedited
12:58:01 <RalphS> but I suppose they'll have to do
12:58:26 <RalphS> [checking inbox to be sure I didn't miss mail from Elias with an updated attachment ...]
12:58:53 <RalphS> [nope, don't see any update]
13:00:12 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
13:00:22 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:00:22 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has not yet started, Steven
13:00:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas
13:00:31 <wing> wing has joined #rdfa
13:00:52 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started
13:01:00 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:01:15 <Zakim> + +043316876aaaa
13:01:15 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
13:01:19 <wing> zakim, IBMCambridge is wing
13:01:19 <Zakim> +wing; got it
13:01:42 <RalphS> zakim, aaaa is mhausenblas
13:01:42 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
13:01:57 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:01:57 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:01:59 <Zakim> +Steven
13:04:50 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
13:04:54 <RalphS> -- continues
13:04:58 <RalphS> Topic: Action Review
13:04:59 <Zakim> + +44.442.076.89.aabb
13:05:08 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to get back in touch with Ian about eRDF/RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
13:05:34 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
13:05:36 <RalphS> -- continues
13:05:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
13:05:49 <RalphS> -- continues
13:06:04 <RalphS> zakim, aabb is Mark
13:06:04 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
13:06:04 <MarkB> MarkB has joined #rdfa
13:06:12 <RalphS> zakim, nick markb is mark
13:06:12 <Zakim> ok, RalphS, I now associate MarkB with Mark
13:06:28 <RalphS> zakim, pick a victim
13:06:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas
13:06:46 <RalphS> zakim, pick a victim
13:06:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mark
13:06:59 <RalphS> Chair: Ralph
13:07:07 <RalphS> Scribe: mhausenblas
13:07:07 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
13:07:15 <RalphS> Scribe: Michael
13:07:37 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
13:07:39 <RalphS> -- continues
13:07:45 <mhausenblas> Present: Ralph, Mark Birbeck, Steven, Wing Michael Hausenblas 
13:07:59 <mhausenblas> Regrets: Ben
13:08:05 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
13:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
13:08:13 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
13:08:13 <mhausenblas> agenda?
13:08:22 <RalphS> -- continues
13:08:47 <RalphS> Mark: that came from IPTC work; element content becomes rdfs:label
13:08:51 <RalphS> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
13:08:55 <mhausenblas> Topic: Action Items
13:09:09 <wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#
13:09:11 <wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#discussion
13:09:13 <wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#issue
13:09:50 <RalphS> -- done
13:10:00 <RalphS> Wing: I'll add some examples into the existing test cases
13:10:11 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
13:10:15 <RalphS> -- continues
13:10:27 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:10:30 <RalphS> -- continues
13:10:53 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:10:55 <RalphS> -- continues
13:11:19 <RalphS> Mark: still needs a public version, plus some questions from Shane to me to which he'd like answers
13:11:30 <RalphS> ... Shane may be holding public version awaiting my answers
13:11:54 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:11:57 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:04 <RalphS> Mark: that's part of discussion with Shane
13:12:19 <RalphS> [DONE ]ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:12:21 <mhausenblas> --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0076.html FAQ Wiki update by Simone
13:12:44 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:12:48 <RalphS> Michael: Simone did that one
13:12:58 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:13:00 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:09 <RalphS> zakim, is elias here?
13:13:09 <Zakim> RalphS, I do not see Elias anywhere
13:13:29 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:13:31 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:40 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
13:13:42 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:56 <RalphS> agenda?
13:14:18 <mhausenblas> agenda+ XMLLiteral [Steven]
13:14:34 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
13:14:34 <Zakim> agendum 1. "RDFa Test Cases" taken up [from mhausenblas]
13:14:42 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
13:14:54 <RalphS> Michael: Wing is working hard on adapting all the new test cases
13:15:19 <RalphS> ... I'm waiting for approval from the group to move 29 or 30 more in
13:15:27 <RalphS> ... does this approval need to come from TF or from the WG?
13:15:35 <RalphS> ... these 29 or 30 will be the initial set
13:15:44 <RalphS> ... can then make more from Primer or from the mailing list
13:15:59 <RalphS> ... hope to have inital ones done this week
13:16:08 <RalphS> ... can think about using test suite for REC-track
13:16:20 <Steven> s/inital/initial/
13:16:50 <RalphS> ... please look at what's there and comment
13:17:19 <mhausenblas> --> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ RDFa Test Suite
13:17:49 <RalphS> Ralph: regarding 'approval', I suggest that Task Force approval is sufficient and we'll get review from the two WGs when we propose to publish a document
13:18:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
13:19:03 <RalphS> Mark: I've been using the data but most of my work is client-side so I haven't been trying to use the test suite directly
13:19:35 <Steven> s/-->/->/
13:19:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
13:20:02 <RalphS> Mark: ... I have a client-side RDFa parser that supports plug-ins
13:20:28 <RalphS> ... xforms processor allows 'selenium' plug-ins too
13:20:37 <MarkB> It's called Selenium...
13:20:47 <MarkB> ...and it's by OpenQA.
13:20:55 <Steven> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2007/03/formsplayer-provides-support-for.html
13:21:22 <Steven> http://www.openqa.org/selenium/
13:22:31 <mhausenblas> next agendum
13:22:37 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
13:22:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, RalphS
13:22:43 <RalphS> zakim, move to agendum 2
13:22:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "XMLLiteral" taken up [from Steven via mhausenblas]
13:23:49 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Who wants to sum up?
13:24:05 <mhausenblas> Steven: Looks like we are converging
13:24:12 <RalphS> scribenick: mhausenblas
13:24:39 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Anybody implemented current proposal?
13:24:58 <mhausenblas> Mark: I did
13:26:20 <Steven> Steven: It looks like we are converging on a consensus position of "If there is markup it is a literal, if not, it is plain text, and values of @datatype are available to override the default"
13:26:56 <mhausenblas> Mark: Regarding lookahead (SAX) ... some worries from Elias
13:27:20 <mhausenblas> ... though possible to do
13:27:42 <mhausenblas> ... One thing not commented on the list is (from Ivan)
13:28:10 <mhausenblas> ... does author know what to do with the markup?
13:28:42 <mhausenblas> ... lots of UC that are applicable
13:29:27 <mhausenblas> ... two issues: what is the default from a RDF store
13:30:00 <mhausenblas> ... second issue (separate): should there be a kind of lossless markup
13:30:33 <mhausenblas> ... example: table with person props from FOAF
13:30:50 <RalphS> q+
13:30:59 <mhausenblas> ... here, the markup is not expected in the output
13:31:51 <mhausenblas> ... put aside XMLLiteral, start with markup
13:31:53 <mhausenblas> ack Ralph
13:32:45 <mhausenblas> q+ to as how uf handle this
13:33:38 <mhausenblas> Mark: Is the mode of detection correct?
13:33:53 <mhausenblas> ... imposing plain literal thing
13:34:09 <mhausenblas> ... other way round: found markup - now let's use it
13:34:18 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Find out via UC
13:34:39 <mhausenblas> Mark: Should we take this to the HTML WG?
13:35:05 <mhausenblas> q?
13:35:43 <Steven> +1 to Ralph
13:35:45 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to as how uf handle this
13:36:01 <RalphS> Michael: the microformat community has somehow been dealing with this question
13:36:10 <RalphS> ... do we know what they've done?
13:36:23 <RalphS> ... could we invite someone from microformats to chat with us?
13:36:24 <Steven> q+
13:36:35 <RalphS> Mark: microformats gets around this problem by writing very specific examples
13:36:50 <RalphS> ... they've mostly not worried about generalizing
13:37:26 <mhausenblas> Steven: UC RSS
13:37:40 <RalphS> Steven: one of my major use cases is to be able to embed RSS in my documents, so I absolutely would want XMLliteral as the default
13:38:16 <MarkB> zakim, q+
13:38:16 <Zakim> I see Mark on the speaker queue
13:38:18 <mhausenblas> q+ to propose another solution
13:39:55 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
13:40:03 <mhausenblas> q?
13:41:36 <mhausenblas> Mark: Agree with Steven, need input from Elias - maybe generate both
13:41:43 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to propose another solution
13:42:01 <RalphS> Mark: we could consider generating both plain literal and XML literal
13:42:10 <RalphS> ... there's already a way to use bnodes
13:42:22 <RalphS> Michael: perhaps let the author specify a per-document default
13:43:10 <RalphS> Mark: something like xml:space='preserve'; the author can specify which way the parser should work
13:43:27 <RalphS> ... or maybe SPAN has one behaviour and TABLE has another
13:43:29 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Nov/0024.html something like this
13:44:03 <RalphS> Mark: maybe specify the default processing on a per-element basis
13:44:17 <RalphS> Steven: doesn't appeal to me; I prefer that the markup be generic
13:44:31 <RalphS> Michael: the only one who knows what is meant to happen with his/her triples is the page author
13:45:16 <RalphS> Mark: if we acknowledge that triple stores do have a problem [I disgree], don't we have to insure that things come out consistently?
13:45:34 <RalphS> ... if we agree there's an issue then it needs to be solved in the markup
13:45:54 <RalphS> ... an author not familiar with these issues would not think to turn off XMLLiteral processing
13:46:02 <RalphS> ... we have to decide our fundamental assumptions
13:46:35 <RalphS> ... when I was testing Ivan's examples ages ago, I rewrote his queries using functions that extracted literal lexical values and they worked fine
13:46:46 <RalphS> ... but people now seem to be saying this isn't the right way to do it
13:48:43 <mhausenblas> agenda?
13:49:55 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Basis should be implementations, evaluations, and research
13:50:35 <mhausenblas> ... also relevant for TC 
13:53:27 <mhausenblas> Mark: We first need to understand more from the RDF triple store issue from Elias before we can proceed
13:54:23 <mhausenblas> Ralph: Right. Process is first to identify how presence of markup means
13:54:35 <mhausenblas> ... then agree on how to flag that
13:55:24 <mhausenblas> Mark: Might not be sufficient; we might not be able to tell from markup presence
13:57:29 <mhausenblas> ... when RDF store can handle this downstream, we are able to keepo everything 
13:57:54 <RalphS> "keep everything" means use XMLliteral
13:57:59 <mhausenblas> ,,, that is preserve all the markup (Elias will bring in results)
13:58:08 <RalphS> and "handle this" may be at the SPARQL query level
13:58:16 <mhausenblas> s/,,,/...
13:58:27 <mhausenblas> s/keepo/keep
13:58:58 <RalphS> next meeting: April 2
13:59:09 <Zakim> -Mark
13:59:10 <MarkB> for example, by using a query that compares on lexical values
13:59:11 <Zakim> -Steven
13:59:12 <RalphS> Steven: April 9 is Easter holidy
13:59:21 <Zakim> -wing
13:59:25 <wing> wing has left #rdfa
13:59:27 <Zakim> -Ralph
13:59:29 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
13:59:30 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended
13:59:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, +043316876aaaa, wing, mhausenblas, Steven, +44.442.076.89.aabb, Mark
13:59:55 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS