IRC log of rdfa on 2007-03-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:51:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

12:51:09 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-irc

12:51:34 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

12:51:46 [mhausenblas]

zakim, list conferences

12:51:46 [Zakim]

I see Team_SysWeb()8:00AM active

12:51:47 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are MWI_DDWG()9:00AM, WS_Team()9:00AM, SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM

12:52:08 [mhausenblas]

zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)

12:52:08 [Zakim]

ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

12:52:27 [mhausenblas]

Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-03-26, 13:00 UTC

12:53:45 [mhausenblas]

agenda+ RDFa Test Cases [mhausenblas]

12:53:59 [mhausenblas]

agenda?

12:54:12 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #rdfa

12:56:14 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

12:57:13 [RalphS]

did Elias post minutes of last week?

12:57:45 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-03-19

12:57:55 [RalphS]

well, those are still raw/unedited

12:58:01 [RalphS]

but I suppose they'll have to do

12:58:26 [RalphS]

[checking inbox to be sure I didn't miss mail from Elias with an updated attachment ...]

12:58:53 [RalphS]

[nope, don't see any update]

13:00:12 [Steven]

Steven has joined #rdfa

13:00:22 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

13:00:22 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has not yet started, Steven

13:00:26 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Steven, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas

13:00:31 [wing]

wing has joined #rdfa

13:00:52 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started

13:01:00 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:01:15 [Zakim]

+ +043316876aaaa

13:01:15 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

13:01:19 [wing]

zakim, IBMCambridge is wing

13:01:19 [Zakim]

+wing; got it

13:01:42 [RalphS]

zakim, aaaa is mhausenblas

13:01:42 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas; got it

13:01:57 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:01:57 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:01:59 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:04:50 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]

13:04:54 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:04:58 [RalphS]

Topic: Action Review

13:04:59 [Zakim]

+ +44.442.076.89.aabb

13:05:08 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben to get back in touch with Ian about eRDF/RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

13:05:34 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

13:05:36 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:05:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

13:05:49 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:06:04 [RalphS]

zakim, aabb is Mark

13:06:04 [Zakim]

+Mark; got it

13:06:04 [MarkB]

MarkB has joined #rdfa

13:06:12 [RalphS]

zakim, nick markb is mark

13:06:12 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS, I now associate MarkB with Mark

13:06:28 [RalphS]

zakim, pick a victim

13:06:28 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas

13:06:46 [RalphS]

zakim, pick a victim

13:06:46 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mark

13:06:59 [RalphS]

Chair: Ralph

13:07:07 [RalphS]

Scribe: mhausenblas

13:07:07 [mhausenblas]

ScribeNick: mhausenblas

13:07:15 [RalphS]

Scribe: Michael

13:07:37 [RalphS]

ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

13:07:39 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:07:45 [mhausenblas]

Present: Ralph, Mark Birbeck, Steven, Wing Michael Hausenblas

13:07:59 [mhausenblas]

Regrets: Ben

13:08:05 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

13:08:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

13:08:13 [RalphS]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

13:08:13 [mhausenblas]

agenda?

13:08:22 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:08:47 [RalphS]

Mark: that came from IPTC work; element content becomes rdfs:label

13:08:51 [RalphS]

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

13:08:55 [mhausenblas]

Topic: Action Items

13:09:09 [wing]

http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#

13:09:11 [wing]

http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#discussion

13:09:13 [wing]

http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#issue

13:09:50 [RalphS]

-- done

13:10:00 [RalphS]

Wing: I'll add some examples into the existing test cases

13:10:11 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

13:10:15 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:10:27 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:10:30 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:10:53 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:10:55 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:11:19 [RalphS]

Mark: still needs a public version, plus some questions from Shane to me to which he'd like answers

13:11:30 [RalphS]

... Shane may be holding public version awaiting my answers

13:11:54 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:11:57 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:12:04 [RalphS]

Mark: that's part of discussion with Shane

13:12:19 [RalphS]

[DONE ]ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

13:12:21 [mhausenblas]

--> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0076.html FAQ Wiki update by Simone

13:12:44 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

13:12:48 [RalphS]

Michael: Simone did that one

13:12:58 [RalphS]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:13:00 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:13:09 [RalphS]

zakim, is elias here?

13:13:09 [Zakim]

RalphS, I do not see Elias anywhere

13:13:29 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

13:13:31 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:13:40 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]

13:13:42 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:13:56 [RalphS]

agenda?

13:14:18 [mhausenblas]

agenda+ XMLLiteral [Steven]

13:14:34 [RalphS]

zakim, move to next agendum

13:14:34 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "RDFa Test Cases" taken up [from mhausenblas]

13:14:42 [RalphS]

scribenick: ralphs

13:14:54 [RalphS]

Michael: Wing is working hard on adapting all the new test cases

13:15:19 [RalphS]

... I'm waiting for approval from the group to move 29 or 30 more in

13:15:27 [RalphS]

... does this approval need to come from TF or from the WG?

13:15:35 [RalphS]

... these 29 or 30 will be the initial set

13:15:44 [RalphS]

... can then make more from Primer or from the mailing list

13:15:59 [RalphS]

... hope to have inital ones done this week

13:16:08 [RalphS]

... can think about using test suite for REC-track

13:16:20 [Steven]

s/inital/initial/

13:16:50 [RalphS]

... please look at what's there and comment

13:17:19 [mhausenblas]

--> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ RDFa Test Suite

13:17:49 [RalphS]

Ralph: regarding 'approval', I suggest that Task Force approval is sufficient and we'll get review from the two WGs when we propose to publish a document

13:18:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

13:19:03 [RalphS]

Mark: I've been using the data but most of my work is client-side so I haven't been trying to use the test suite directly

13:19:35 [Steven]

s/-->/->/

13:19:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

13:20:02 [RalphS]

Mark: ... I have a client-side RDFa parser that supports plug-ins

13:20:28 [RalphS]

... xforms processor allows 'selenium' plug-ins too

13:20:37 [MarkB]

It's called Selenium...

13:20:47 [MarkB]

...and it's by OpenQA.

13:20:55 [Steven]

http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2007/03/formsplayer-provides-support-for.html

13:21:22 [Steven]

http://www.openqa.org/selenium/

13:22:31 [mhausenblas]

next agendum

13:22:37 [RalphS]

zakim, move to next agendum

13:22:37 [Zakim]

agendum 2 was just opened, RalphS

13:22:43 [RalphS]

zakim, move to agendum 2

13:22:43 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "XMLLiteral" taken up [from Steven via mhausenblas]

13:23:49 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Who wants to sum up?

13:24:05 [mhausenblas]

Steven: Looks like we are converging

13:24:12 [RalphS]

scribenick: mhausenblas

13:24:39 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Anybody implemented current proposal?

13:24:58 [mhausenblas]

Mark: I did

13:26:20 [Steven]

Steven: It looks like we are converging on a consensus position of "If there is markup it is a literal, if not, it is plain text, and values of @datatype are available to override the default"

13:26:56 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Regarding lookahead (SAX) ... some worries from Elias

13:27:20 [mhausenblas]

... though possible to do

13:27:42 [mhausenblas]

... One thing not commented on the list is (from Ivan)

13:28:10 [mhausenblas]

... does author know what to do with the markup?

13:28:42 [mhausenblas]

... lots of UC that are applicable

13:29:27 [mhausenblas]

... two issues: what is the default from a RDF store

13:30:00 [mhausenblas]

... second issue (separate): should there be a kind of lossless markup

13:30:33 [mhausenblas]

... example: table with person props from FOAF

13:30:50 [RalphS]

q+

13:30:59 [mhausenblas]

... here, the markup is not expected in the output

13:31:51 [mhausenblas]

... put aside XMLLiteral, start with markup

13:31:53 [mhausenblas]

ack Ralph

13:32:45 [mhausenblas]

q+ to as how uf handle this

13:33:38 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Is the mode of detection correct?

13:33:53 [mhausenblas]

... imposing plain literal thing

13:34:09 [mhausenblas]

... other way round: found markup - now let's use it

13:34:18 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Find out via UC

13:34:39 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Should we take this to the HTML WG?

13:35:05 [mhausenblas]

q?

13:35:43 [Steven]

+1 to Ralph

13:35:45 [Zakim]

mhausenblas, you wanted to as how uf handle this

13:36:01 [RalphS]

Michael: the microformat community has somehow been dealing with this question

13:36:10 [RalphS]

... do we know what they've done?

13:36:23 [RalphS]

... could we invite someone from microformats to chat with us?

13:36:24 [Steven]

q+

13:36:35 [RalphS]

Mark: microformats gets around this problem by writing very specific examples

13:36:50 [RalphS]

... they've mostly not worried about generalizing

13:37:26 [mhausenblas]

Steven: UC RSS

13:37:40 [RalphS]

Steven: one of my major use cases is to be able to embed RSS in my documents, so I absolutely would want XMLliteral as the default

13:38:16 [MarkB]

zakim, q+

13:38:16 [Zakim]

I see Mark on the speaker queue

13:38:18 [mhausenblas]

q+ to propose another solution

13:39:55 [Steven]

Steven has joined #rdfa

13:40:03 [mhausenblas]

q?

13:41:36 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Agree with Steven, need input from Elias - maybe generate both

13:41:43 [Zakim]

mhausenblas, you wanted to propose another solution

13:42:01 [RalphS]

Mark: we could consider generating both plain literal and XML literal

13:42:10 [RalphS]

... there's already a way to use bnodes

13:42:22 [RalphS]

Michael: perhaps let the author specify a per-document default

13:43:10 [RalphS]

Mark: something like xml:space='preserve'; the author can specify which way the parser should work

13:43:27 [RalphS]

... or maybe SPAN has one behaviour and TABLE has another

13:43:29 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Nov/0024.html something like this

13:44:03 [RalphS]

Mark: maybe specify the default processing on a per-element basis

13:44:17 [RalphS]

Steven: doesn't appeal to me; I prefer that the markup be generic

13:44:31 [RalphS]

Michael: the only one who knows what is meant to happen with his/her triples is the page author

13:45:16 [RalphS]

Mark: if we acknowledge that triple stores do have a problem [I disgree], don't we have to insure that things come out consistently?

13:45:34 [RalphS]

... if we agree there's an issue then it needs to be solved in the markup

13:45:54 [RalphS]

... an author not familiar with these issues would not think to turn off XMLLiteral processing

13:46:02 [RalphS]

... we have to decide our fundamental assumptions

13:46:35 [RalphS]

... when I was testing Ivan's examples ages ago, I rewrote his queries using functions that extracted literal lexical values and they worked fine

13:46:46 [RalphS]

... but people now seem to be saying this isn't the right way to do it

13:48:43 [mhausenblas]

agenda?

13:49:55 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Basis should be implementations, evaluations, and research

13:50:35 [mhausenblas]

... also relevant for TC

13:53:27 [mhausenblas]

Mark: We first need to understand more from the RDF triple store issue from Elias before we can proceed

13:54:23 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Right. Process is first to identify how presence of markup means

13:54:35 [mhausenblas]

... then agree on how to flag that

13:55:24 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Might not be sufficient; we might not be able to tell from markup presence

13:57:29 [mhausenblas]

... when RDF store can handle this downstream, we are able to keepo everything

13:57:54 [RalphS]

"keep everything" means use XMLliteral

13:57:59 [mhausenblas]

,,, that is preserve all the markup (Elias will bring in results)

13:58:08 [RalphS]

and "handle this" may be at the SPARQL query level

13:58:16 [mhausenblas]

s/,,,/...

13:58:27 [mhausenblas]

s/keepo/keep

13:58:58 [RalphS]

next meeting: April 2

13:59:09 [Zakim]

-Mark

13:59:10 [MarkB]

for example, by using a query that compares on lexical values

13:59:11 [Zakim]

-Steven

13:59:12 [RalphS]

Steven: April 9 is Easter holidy

13:59:21 [Zakim]

-wing

13:59:25 [wing]

wing has left #rdfa

13:59:27 [Zakim]

-Ralph

13:59:29 [Zakim]

-mhausenblas

13:59:30 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended

13:59:32 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, +043316876aaaa, wing, mhausenblas, Steven, +44.442.076.89.aabb, Mark

13:59:55 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

13:59:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS