IRC log of swd on 2007-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:59 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swd

14:54:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc

14:55:02 [RalphS]

Meeting: SWD WG

14:55:09 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

14:55:14 [RalphS]

zakim, who's on the call?

14:55:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB

14:55:38 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0093.html

14:56:04 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-03-13

14:56:17 [siggi]

siggi has joined #swd

14:57:36 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:58:17 [Zakim]

-TomB

14:58:38 [Zakim]

+??P33

14:58:43 [RalphS]

Regrets: Vit, Sean,

14:58:53 [JonP]

JonP has joined #swd

14:59:50 [RalphS]

Regrets: Vit, Sean, Antoine, Bernard, Diego

15:00:16 [benadida]

benadida has joined #SWD

15:00:24 [benadida]

I'll be a few minutes late

15:00:32 [Zakim]

+Jon_Phipps

15:01:06 [JonP]

zakim, Jon_Phipps is me

15:01:06 [Zakim]

+JonP; got it

15:01:07 [vit]

well, actually i am here - only my phone is not working yet...

15:01:18 [RalphS]

Regrets- Vit

15:01:21 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:01:31 [RalphS]

[not sure if the scribe script will recognize that]

15:01:41 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p24 is DERI-Galway

15:01:41 [Zakim]

+DERI-Galway; got it

15:01:55 [Simone]

Simone has joined #swd

15:02:31 [RalphS]

zakim, DERI has Siggi, Vit

15:02:31 [Zakim]

+Siggi, Vit; got it

15:03:17 [Zakim]

+[VrijeUni]

15:03:56 [guus]

guus has joined #swd

15:05:22 [RalphS]

zakim, grije is Guus

15:05:22 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'grije'

15:05:25 [RalphS]

zakim, vrije is Guus

15:05:25 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'vrije'

15:05:33 [RalphS]

zakim, vrijeuni is Guus

15:05:33 [Zakim]

+Guus; got it

15:06:42 [aliman]

aliman has joined #swd

15:06:42 [Zakim]

+??P56

15:06:52 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p56 is Alistair

15:06:52 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

15:08:15 [RalphS]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:08:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, TomB, JonP, DERI-Galway, Guus, Alistair

15:08:16 [Zakim]

DERI-Galway has Siggi, Vit

15:08:21 [guus]

zakim, who is here?

15:08:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, TomB, JonP, DERI-Galway, Guus, Alistair

15:08:22 [Zakim]

DERI-Galway has Siggi, Vit

15:08:24 [Zakim]

On IRC I see aliman, guus, Simone, benadida, JonP, siggi, RRSAgent, TomB, vit, Zakim, RalphS

15:10:24 [RalphS]

Chair: Guus

15:10:40 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Guus

15:10:43 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TomB

15:10:45 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Alistair

15:10:47 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Siggi

15:11:10 [Simone]

Zakim, passcode?

15:11:10 [Zakim]

the conference code is 79394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Simone

15:11:30 [RalphS]

Scribe: Ralph

15:11:40 [RalphS]

Guus: welcome to Siggi and Vit

15:11:47 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:11:50 [RalphS]

Topic: Admin

15:11:56 [Simone]

Zakim IPcaller is Simone

15:11:59 [Simone]

Zakim, IPcaller is Simone

15:11:59 [Zakim]

+Simone; got it

15:15:49 [Simone]

Simone has joined #swd

15:16:07 [RalphS]

Tom: I need to check the record of 13 March actions, as there was some confusion between me and Jon about status of one of them

15:16:38 [RalphS]

Guus: we'll carry forward discussion of previous minutes to next week, then

15:16:49 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ralph get tracker to watch public-swd-wg@w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-swd-minutes.html#action01]

15:17:04 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Guus to check if Amsterdam can be F2F venue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action17]

15:17:30 [RalphS]

Guus: CWI will host a meeting, either in our facilities or in the W3C Amsterdam Office

15:18:04 [TomB]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f2poll1

15:18:05 [RalphS]

Tom: we need more people to respond to the f2f poll

15:18:38 [RalphS]

Ralph: see "Open polls and questionnaires" under "Nearby" on -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/ SWD WG home page

15:19:33 [RalphS]

Topic: SKOS

15:19:43 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SKOS SKOS Deliverable

15:20:15 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elisa and Sean to review SKOS editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html by 27 March

15:20:16 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:20:27 [RalphS]

ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:20:28 [RalphS]

-- continues]

15:20:38 [RalphS]

ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]

15:20:40 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:20:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:20:55 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:21:12 [RalphS]

Guus: I don't see a consensus yet; the WG appears to be split

15:21:40 [RalphS]

... Alistair asked to postpone this issue

15:21:49 [benadida]

Hi all, I may not be able to get on phone, but I'm on IRC if we get to RDFa

15:22:02 [RalphS]

Alistair: we have only one concrete proposal on the table now, the revised proposal from Guus

15:22:30 [RalphS]

... we don't have a concrete proposal on alternatives, e.g. class-as-pattern

15:22:40 [RalphS]

... can't discuss alternatives without a concrete proposal

15:23:02 [RalphS]

... I propose to postpone this issue until advocates for another approach post a full proposal

15:23:19 [RalphS]

... it doesn't have to be either-or, however; there are solutions that might accomodate both

15:24:10 [RalphS]

... see my -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0092.html revised alternative proposal

15:24:13 [RalphS]

... mailed yesterday

15:24:37 [RalphS]

Guus: I prefer solutions that make minimal changes to the original specification while still handling the requirements

15:25:21 [RalphS]

... my second proposal differed from my first proposal by dropping requirements for alt labels and permitting more flexibility in the value

15:25:28 [RalphS]

... this makes the specification lighter

15:25:41 [aliman]

q+ to respond to Guus' comment

15:25:43 [RalphS]

... this would be an intermediate minimal solution

15:26:14 [Zakim]

aliman, you wanted to respond to Guus' comment

15:26:51 [RalphS]

Alistair: I thought earlier that your second proposal was the one with 'has label relation' property

15:26:58 [RalphS]

Guus: no, that was a refinement of my first proposal

15:27:12 [RalphS]

Alistair: I don't like to have the range of a property be underspecified

15:27:27 [RalphS]

... I think it makes sense to set the expectation that range of certain properties will be plain literals

15:27:41 [RalphS]

... if an application has to deal with various alternatives, it makes the implementation more complicated

15:27:44 [guus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0004.html

15:27:51 [guus]

my second proposal

15:27:59 [RalphS]

... I would like to the *label property values to be plain literals

15:28:26 [RalphS]

... I agree with the approach Guus is proposing and make the smallest commitment we can make that is sensible

15:28:52 [RalphS]

... but having underspecified ranges for the particular label properties may be harmful

15:29:11 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:29:35 [RalphS]

Guus: the problem with alt and pref label is that we simply don't know -- it depends on the specific vocabularies

15:29:36 [Zakim]

-TomB

15:29:57 [RalphS]

... each vocabulary has a notion of alt and preferred label but makes different decisions with respect to [use of] strings

15:30:18 [RalphS]

... we can either complicate SKOS by adding multiple solutions or we rule out one approach

15:30:31 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:30:33 [TomB_]

TomB_ has joined #swd

15:30:38 [RalphS]

Alistair: for any single vocabulary there are several ways to model it in RDF

15:31:05 [RalphS]

... just because we choose to use literals in altLabel and prefLabel doesn't mean we've ruled out the ability to capture everything in that vocabulary

15:31:28 [RalphS]

... I show solutions that allow people to extend SKOS in various ways while still permitting some interoperability

15:31:58 [RalphS]

Guus: I have a feeling that our two proposals will not generate consensus; they're viewed as too contrived

15:32:16 [RalphS]

... forcing a vocabulary owner to create an individual for every term is also unlikely to get consensus

15:32:22 [RalphS]

... need a middle ground that allows for both

15:32:38 [RalphS]

Alistair: my proposal does not prevent either approach; it's a different way of looking at the problem

15:33:06 [RalphS]

Guus: but it makes the specification more complicated

15:33:17 [RalphS]

Alistair: I disagree; it creates 3 design patterns that can be extended

15:33:30 [Zakim]

-??P0

15:33:31 [RalphS]

... and would simplify one section of the current Guide

15:33:56 [RalphS]

... it provides an extensibility framework for modelling relationships between literals if you want to do so

15:34:11 [RalphS]

... it's worth thinking about this

15:34:42 [RalphS]

... I'd like to keep prefLabel, altLabel, and hiddenLabel stable

15:35:13 [RalphS]

... there are entailments that follow from the use of plain literal; e.g. a blank node of type rdfs:Literal

15:35:19 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:35:22 [RalphS]

... you can name plain literals with URIs if you want

15:35:27 [RalphS]

Guus: I don't want to go down that road

15:35:58 [RalphS]

Alistair: it would help to have very specific proposal here, e.g. for Guus' proposal to underspecify values

15:36:19 [RalphS]

ACTION: Guus revise his ACTION-26 proposal to account for other options

15:36:33 [RalphS]

s/ACTION/ISSUE/

15:37:33 [RalphS]

ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:37:38 [RalphS]

-- withdrawn

15:38:14 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Alistair updates SKOS section of deliverables page based on proposed restructuring of documents cited in he previous email to the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html#action12]

15:38:31 [RalphS]

Guus: I'll ping Antoine on the editor's draft of the SKOS Use Cases

15:38:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Guus ping Antoine regarding status of SKOS Use Cases editors' draft

15:38:54 [RalphS]

Topic: Recipes

15:39:08 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes Recipes

15:39:14 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]

15:39:16 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:39:25 [RalphS]

Jon: Diego has posted some preliminary work on test cases

15:39:45 [RalphS]

... I think we committed to early April to have a version

15:40:04 [RalphS]

... I'll talk with Diego about whether we have enough material to create an interim draft

15:40:17 [RalphS]

Guus: It's fine to post a WD that notes still-open issues

15:40:21 [RalphS]

Topic: Vocabulary Management

15:40:30 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#VocabularyMgt Vocab Management

15:40:46 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06]

15:40:48 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:41:45 [RalphS]

Guus: I'd like for Siggi and Vit to talk with Elisa and propose a work plan for this Note

15:42:05 [RalphS]

Vit: I've exchanged mail with Elisa and outlined what we are able to offer

15:42:32 [RalphS]

... we need to consider which parts of the very abstract proposal we can contribute

15:43:08 [RalphS]

Guus: Siggi and Vit head the vocabulary work in KnowledgeWeb, so I appreciate their participation here

15:43:20 [RalphS]

Topic: Semantic Integration Note

15:43:31 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SemanticIntegration Semantic Integration

15:43:47 [RalphS]

Guus: we've decided to leave this item as low priority for now

15:44:21 [RalphS]

... so I will omit it from future agenda for now and perhaps revive it later

15:44:49 [RalphS]

Ralph: so let's note in our Deliverables Wiki that this deliverable is at risk

15:44:53 [RalphS]

Topic: RDFa

15:45:17 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0063.html RDFa Primer 1.0 12 March 2007 published

15:45:39 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0047.html

15:46:38 [RalphS]

Ben: I'm not sure I can cite specific reply from Alistair or Daniel

15:46:39 [aliman]

q+ to comment on response to review

15:46:44 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/

15:47:51 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0037.html Request to Vote on publication of RDFa Primer and Use Case documents

15:47:55 [Zakim]

aliman, you wanted to comment on response to review

15:48:24 [RalphS]

Alistair: I've read the email describing responses to all my comments and I'm happy if my comments have been addressed per that email

15:49:06 [RalphS]

Guus: please send email to the list with that reply, Alistair

15:49:25 [TomB]

+1

15:49:39 [RalphS]

PROPOSE to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases

15:50:09 [TomB]

+1 to publish Use Case document as Working Draft

15:50:10 [RalphS]

PROPOSE to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases: Scenarios for Embedding RDF in HTML

15:50:20 [Simone]

+1

15:50:30 [RalphS]

RESOLVED to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases: Scenarios for Embedding RDF in HTML as First Public Working Draft

15:51:07 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph

15:51:21 [TomB]

q+ to propose we accept http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html

15:52:14 [RalphS]

Guus: I'd like Ben to do some publicity on relevant mailing lists; e.g. semantic-web@w3.org

15:52:29 [RalphS]

Ben: happy to do that. We also keep an RDFa blog

15:52:43 [RalphS]

Guus: how about some html-related mailing lists?

15:53:22 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work

15:53:54 [RalphS]

Ben: I'd appreciate other suggestions on what mailing lists to notify

15:54:22 [Zakim]

TomB, you wanted to propose we accept http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html

15:54:39 [RalphS]

Tom: I checked the minutes of the 13 March meeting and they look OK

15:54:52 [RalphS]

RESOLVED to accept -> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html minutes of 13 March telecon

15:55:21 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

15:55:23 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:55:30 [Zakim]

-Simone

15:55:33 [RalphS]

zakim, list participants

15:55:33 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been TomB, Ralph, JonP, Siggi, Vit, Guus, Alistair, Simone, Ben_Adida

15:55:42 [Zakim]

-DERI-Galway

15:56:09 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:56:19 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:56:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html RalphS

15:57:04 [benadida]

benadida has left #SWD

15:57:25 [RalphS]

Ben, see -> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules Pubrules checker

15:57:39 [RalphS]

sigh, seconds too late :)

16:10:13 [siggi]

siggi has left #swd

16:12:10 [TomB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0196.html

16:13:01 [TomB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0189.html

16:14:59 [guus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0224.html

16:22:13 [Zakim]

-Guus

16:23:03 [gschreiber]

gschreiber has joined #swd

16:23:13 [gschreiber]

sorry, got kicked out

16:23:38 [gschreiber]

i have to leave anyway, we'll continue this important and interesting discussion

16:47:02 [aliman]

dc:title rdfs:range rdfs:Literal.

16:47:19 [aliman]

ex:foo dc:title "bar".

16:47:36 [aliman]

ex:foo dc:title ex:bar.

16:47:56 [aliman]

ex:bar rdf:type rdfs:Literal.

16:48:26 [aliman]

ex:foo dc:title _:nnn.

16:48:28 [aliman]

_:nnn rdf:type rdfs:Literal.

16:59:24 [Zakim]

-??P0

16:59:38 [TomB]

I got booted off...

16:59:50 [aliman]

we can continue on email?

17:00:14 [TomB]

sure - let's continue in email

17:02:05 [aliman]

Each property may be related to one or more other properties by a sub-property of relationship. Where it is stated that such a relationship exists, the two properties are defined such that whenever a resource is related to a value by the sub-property, it follows that the resource is also related to that same value by the property.

17:03:43 [TomB]

I can't dial in... and am trying to guess why this is quoted...

17:04:00 [aliman]

we're talking about jon's wife's sisters :)

17:04:25 [TomB]

as two properties related by a sub-property relationship?

17:04:30 [TomB]

:-)

17:06:52 [Zakim]

-Alistair

17:06:54 [Zakim]

-JonP

17:06:56 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

17:06:57 [Zakim]

Attendees were TomB, Ralph, JonP, Siggi, Vit, Guus, Alistair, Simone, Ben_Adida

17:07:03 [aliman]

no, we digressed :)

17:07:15 [JonP]

we were talking about "dumb-down"

17:07:17 [aliman]

I'll try to write email in the next couple of days

17:07:47 [aliman]

bye :)

17:07:55 [JonP]

and no, that wasn't in reference to my wife's sisters

17:09:01 [JonP]

TomB: cya on the internet

17:09:12 [TomB]

want to Skype?

17:09:27 [JonP]

sure

18:30:32 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

18:30:32 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #swd

18:30:35 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-actions.rdf :

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elisa and Sean to review SKOS editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html by 27 March [1]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-15

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [2]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-27

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01] [3]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-38

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09] [4]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-48

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus revise his ACTION-26 proposal to account for other options [5]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-36-19

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09] [6]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-37-33

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus ping Antoine regarding status of SKOS Use Cases editors' draft [7]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-38-48

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [8]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-39-14

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06] [9]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-40-46

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph [10]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-51-07

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work [11]

18:30:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-53-22