IRC log of swd on 2007-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:54:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc
14:55:02 [RalphS]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:55:09 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:55:14 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
14:55:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB
14:55:38 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0093.html
14:56:04 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-03-13
14:56:17 [siggi]
siggi has joined #swd
14:57:36 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:58:17 [Zakim]
-TomB
14:58:38 [Zakim]
+??P33
14:58:43 [RalphS]
Regrets: Vit, Sean,
14:58:53 [JonP]
JonP has joined #swd
14:59:50 [RalphS]
Regrets: Vit, Sean, Antoine, Bernard, Diego
15:00:16 [benadida]
benadida has joined #SWD
15:00:24 [benadida]
I'll be a few minutes late
15:00:32 [Zakim]
+Jon_Phipps
15:01:06 [JonP]
zakim, Jon_Phipps is me
15:01:06 [Zakim]
+JonP; got it
15:01:07 [vit]
well, actually i am here - only my phone is not working yet...
15:01:18 [RalphS]
Regrets- Vit
15:01:21 [Zakim]
+??P24
15:01:31 [RalphS]
[not sure if the scribe script will recognize that]
15:01:41 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p24 is DERI-Galway
15:01:41 [Zakim]
+DERI-Galway; got it
15:01:55 [Simone]
Simone has joined #swd
15:02:31 [RalphS]
zakim, DERI has Siggi, Vit
15:02:31 [Zakim]
+Siggi, Vit; got it
15:03:17 [Zakim]
+[VrijeUni]
15:03:56 [guus]
guus has joined #swd
15:05:22 [RalphS]
zakim, grije is Guus
15:05:22 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'grije'
15:05:25 [RalphS]
zakim, vrije is Guus
15:05:25 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'vrije'
15:05:33 [RalphS]
zakim, vrijeuni is Guus
15:05:33 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:06:42 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:06:42 [Zakim]
+??P56
15:06:52 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p56 is Alistair
15:06:52 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
15:08:15 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ralph, TomB, JonP, DERI-Galway, Guus, Alistair
15:08:16 [Zakim]
DERI-Galway has Siggi, Vit
15:08:21 [guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:08:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ralph, TomB, JonP, DERI-Galway, Guus, Alistair
15:08:22 [Zakim]
DERI-Galway has Siggi, Vit
15:08:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see aliman, guus, Simone, benadida, JonP, siggi, RRSAgent, TomB, vit, Zakim, RalphS
15:10:24 [RalphS]
Chair: Guus
15:10:40 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Guus
15:10:43 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TomB
15:10:45 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Alistair
15:10:47 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Siggi
15:11:10 [Simone]
Zakim, passcode?
15:11:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 79394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Simone
15:11:30 [RalphS]
Scribe: Ralph
15:11:40 [RalphS]
Guus: welcome to Siggi and Vit
15:11:47 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:11:50 [RalphS]
Topic: Admin
15:11:56 [Simone]
Zakim IPcaller is Simone
15:11:59 [Simone]
Zakim, IPcaller is Simone
15:11:59 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:15:49 [Simone]
Simone has joined #swd
15:16:07 [RalphS]
Tom: I need to check the record of 13 March actions, as there was some confusion between me and Jon about status of one of them
15:16:38 [RalphS]
Guus: we'll carry forward discussion of previous minutes to next week, then
15:16:49 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph get tracker to watch public-swd-wg@w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:17:04 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus to check if Amsterdam can be F2F venue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action17]
15:17:30 [RalphS]
Guus: CWI will host a meeting, either in our facilities or in the W3C Amsterdam Office
15:18:04 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f2poll1
15:18:05 [RalphS]
Tom: we need more people to respond to the f2f poll
15:18:38 [RalphS]
Ralph: see "Open polls and questionnaires" under "Nearby" on -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/ SWD WG home page
15:19:33 [RalphS]
Topic: SKOS
15:19:43 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SKOS SKOS Deliverable
15:20:15 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elisa and Sean to review SKOS editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html by 27 March
15:20:16 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:20:27 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:20:28 [RalphS]
-- continues]
15:20:38 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:20:40 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:20:48 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:20:55 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:21:12 [RalphS]
Guus: I don't see a consensus yet; the WG appears to be split
15:21:40 [RalphS]
... Alistair asked to postpone this issue
15:21:49 [benadida]
Hi all, I may not be able to get on phone, but I'm on IRC if we get to RDFa
15:22:02 [RalphS]
Alistair: we have only one concrete proposal on the table now, the revised proposal from Guus
15:22:30 [RalphS]
... we don't have a concrete proposal on alternatives, e.g. class-as-pattern
15:22:40 [RalphS]
... can't discuss alternatives without a concrete proposal
15:23:02 [RalphS]
... I propose to postpone this issue until advocates for another approach post a full proposal
15:23:19 [RalphS]
... it doesn't have to be either-or, however; there are solutions that might accomodate both
15:24:10 [RalphS]
... see my -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0092.html revised alternative proposal
15:24:13 [RalphS]
... mailed yesterday
15:24:37 [RalphS]
Guus: I prefer solutions that make minimal changes to the original specification while still handling the requirements
15:25:21 [RalphS]
... my second proposal differed from my first proposal by dropping requirements for alt labels and permitting more flexibility in the value
15:25:28 [RalphS]
... this makes the specification lighter
15:25:41 [aliman]
q+ to respond to Guus' comment
15:25:43 [RalphS]
... this would be an intermediate minimal solution
15:26:14 [Zakim]
aliman, you wanted to respond to Guus' comment
15:26:51 [RalphS]
Alistair: I thought earlier that your second proposal was the one with 'has label relation' property
15:26:58 [RalphS]
Guus: no, that was a refinement of my first proposal
15:27:12 [RalphS]
Alistair: I don't like to have the range of a property be underspecified
15:27:27 [RalphS]
... I think it makes sense to set the expectation that range of certain properties will be plain literals
15:27:41 [RalphS]
... if an application has to deal with various alternatives, it makes the implementation more complicated
15:27:44 [guus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0004.html
15:27:51 [guus]
my second proposal
15:27:59 [RalphS]
... I would like to the *label property values to be plain literals
15:28:26 [RalphS]
... I agree with the approach Guus is proposing and make the smallest commitment we can make that is sensible
15:28:52 [RalphS]
... but having underspecified ranges for the particular label properties may be harmful
15:29:11 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:29:35 [RalphS]
Guus: the problem with alt and pref label is that we simply don't know -- it depends on the specific vocabularies
15:29:36 [Zakim]
-TomB
15:29:57 [RalphS]
... each vocabulary has a notion of alt and preferred label but makes different decisions with respect to [use of] strings
15:30:18 [RalphS]
... we can either complicate SKOS by adding multiple solutions or we rule out one approach
15:30:31 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:30:33 [TomB_]
TomB_ has joined #swd
15:30:38 [RalphS]
Alistair: for any single vocabulary there are several ways to model it in RDF
15:31:05 [RalphS]
... just because we choose to use literals in altLabel and prefLabel doesn't mean we've ruled out the ability to capture everything in that vocabulary
15:31:28 [RalphS]
... I show solutions that allow people to extend SKOS in various ways while still permitting some interoperability
15:31:58 [RalphS]
Guus: I have a feeling that our two proposals will not generate consensus; they're viewed as too contrived
15:32:16 [RalphS]
... forcing a vocabulary owner to create an individual for every term is also unlikely to get consensus
15:32:22 [RalphS]
... need a middle ground that allows for both
15:32:38 [RalphS]
Alistair: my proposal does not prevent either approach; it's a different way of looking at the problem
15:33:06 [RalphS]
Guus: but it makes the specification more complicated
15:33:17 [RalphS]
Alistair: I disagree; it creates 3 design patterns that can be extended
15:33:30 [Zakim]
-??P0
15:33:31 [RalphS]
... and would simplify one section of the current Guide
15:33:56 [RalphS]
... it provides an extensibility framework for modelling relationships between literals if you want to do so
15:34:11 [RalphS]
... it's worth thinking about this
15:34:42 [RalphS]
... I'd like to keep prefLabel, altLabel, and hiddenLabel stable
15:35:13 [RalphS]
... there are entailments that follow from the use of plain literal; e.g. a blank node of type rdfs:Literal
15:35:19 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:35:22 [RalphS]
... you can name plain literals with URIs if you want
15:35:27 [RalphS]
Guus: I don't want to go down that road
15:35:58 [RalphS]
Alistair: it would help to have very specific proposal here, e.g. for Guus' proposal to underspecify values
15:36:19 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus revise his ACTION-26 proposal to account for other options
15:36:33 [RalphS]
s/ACTION/ISSUE/
15:37:33 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:37:38 [RalphS]
-- withdrawn
15:38:14 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Alistair updates SKOS section of deliverables page based on proposed restructuring of documents cited in he previous email to the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html#action12]
15:38:31 [RalphS]
Guus: I'll ping Antoine on the editor's draft of the SKOS Use Cases
15:38:48 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus ping Antoine regarding status of SKOS Use Cases editors' draft
15:38:54 [RalphS]
Topic: Recipes
15:39:08 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes Recipes
15:39:14 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
15:39:16 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:39:25 [RalphS]
Jon: Diego has posted some preliminary work on test cases
15:39:45 [RalphS]
... I think we committed to early April to have a version
15:40:04 [RalphS]
... I'll talk with Diego about whether we have enough material to create an interim draft
15:40:17 [RalphS]
Guus: It's fine to post a WD that notes still-open issues
15:40:21 [RalphS]
Topic: Vocabulary Management
15:40:30 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#VocabularyMgt Vocab Management
15:40:46 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:40:48 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:41:45 [RalphS]
Guus: I'd like for Siggi and Vit to talk with Elisa and propose a work plan for this Note
15:42:05 [RalphS]
Vit: I've exchanged mail with Elisa and outlined what we are able to offer
15:42:32 [RalphS]
... we need to consider which parts of the very abstract proposal we can contribute
15:43:08 [RalphS]
Guus: Siggi and Vit head the vocabulary work in KnowledgeWeb, so I appreciate their participation here
15:43:20 [RalphS]
Topic: Semantic Integration Note
15:43:31 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SemanticIntegration Semantic Integration
15:43:47 [RalphS]
Guus: we've decided to leave this item as low priority for now
15:44:21 [RalphS]
... so I will omit it from future agenda for now and perhaps revive it later
15:44:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: so let's note in our Deliverables Wiki that this deliverable is at risk
15:44:53 [RalphS]
Topic: RDFa
15:45:17 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0063.html RDFa Primer 1.0 12 March 2007 published
15:45:39 [benadida]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0047.html
15:46:38 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm not sure I can cite specific reply from Alistair or Daniel
15:46:39 [aliman]
q+ to comment on response to review
15:46:44 [benadida]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/
15:47:51 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Mar/0037.html Request to Vote on publication of RDFa Primer and Use Case documents
15:47:55 [Zakim]
aliman, you wanted to comment on response to review
15:48:24 [RalphS]
Alistair: I've read the email describing responses to all my comments and I'm happy if my comments have been addressed per that email
15:49:06 [RalphS]
Guus: please send email to the list with that reply, Alistair
15:49:25 [TomB]
+1
15:49:39 [RalphS]
PROPOSE to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases
15:50:09 [TomB]
+1 to publish Use Case document as Working Draft
15:50:10 [RalphS]
PROPOSE to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases: Scenarios for Embedding RDF in HTML
15:50:20 [Simone]
+1
15:50:30 [RalphS]
RESOLVED to proceed with publishing -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ RDFa Use Cases: Scenarios for Embedding RDF in HTML as First Public Working Draft
15:51:07 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph
15:51:21 [TomB]
q+ to propose we accept http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html
15:52:14 [RalphS]
Guus: I'd like Ben to do some publicity on relevant mailing lists; e.g. semantic-web@w3.org
15:52:29 [RalphS]
Ben: happy to do that. We also keep an RDFa blog
15:52:43 [RalphS]
Guus: how about some html-related mailing lists?
15:53:22 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work
15:53:54 [RalphS]
Ben: I'd appreciate other suggestions on what mailing lists to notify
15:54:22 [Zakim]
TomB, you wanted to propose we accept http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html
15:54:39 [RalphS]
Tom: I checked the minutes of the 13 March meeting and they look OK
15:54:52 [RalphS]
RESOLVED to accept -> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-swd-minutes.html minutes of 13 March telecon
15:55:21 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
15:55:23 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
15:55:30 [Zakim]
-Simone
15:55:33 [RalphS]
zakim, list participants
15:55:33 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been TomB, Ralph, JonP, Siggi, Vit, Guus, Alistair, Simone, Ben_Adida
15:55:42 [Zakim]
-DERI-Galway
15:56:09 [Zakim]
-Ralph
15:56:19 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:56:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-minutes.html RalphS
15:57:04 [benadida]
benadida has left #SWD
15:57:25 [RalphS]
Ben, see -> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules Pubrules checker
15:57:39 [RalphS]
sigh, seconds too late :)
16:10:13 [siggi]
siggi has left #swd
16:12:10 [TomB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0196.html
16:13:01 [TomB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0189.html
16:14:59 [guus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Feb/0224.html
16:22:13 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:23:03 [gschreiber]
gschreiber has joined #swd
16:23:13 [gschreiber]
sorry, got kicked out
16:23:38 [gschreiber]
i have to leave anyway, we'll continue this important and interesting discussion
16:47:02 [aliman]
dc:title rdfs:range rdfs:Literal.
16:47:19 [aliman]
ex:foo dc:title "bar".
16:47:36 [aliman]
ex:foo dc:title ex:bar.
16:47:56 [aliman]
ex:bar rdf:type rdfs:Literal.
16:48:26 [aliman]
ex:foo dc:title _:nnn.
16:48:28 [aliman]
_:nnn rdf:type rdfs:Literal.
16:59:24 [Zakim]
-??P0
16:59:38 [TomB]
I got booted off...
16:59:50 [aliman]
we can continue on email?
17:00:14 [TomB]
sure - let's continue in email
17:02:05 [aliman]
Each property may be related to one or more other properties by a sub-property of relationship. Where it is stated that such a relationship exists, the two properties are defined such that whenever a resource is related to a value by the sub-property, it follows that the resource is also related to that same value by the property.
17:03:43 [TomB]
I can't dial in... and am trying to guess why this is quoted...
17:04:00 [aliman]
we're talking about jon's wife's sisters :)
17:04:25 [TomB]
as two properties related by a sub-property relationship?
17:04:30 [TomB]
:-)
17:06:52 [Zakim]
-Alistair
17:06:54 [Zakim]
-JonP
17:06:56 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:06:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were TomB, Ralph, JonP, Siggi, Vit, Guus, Alistair, Simone, Ben_Adida
17:07:03 [aliman]
no, we digressed :)
17:07:15 [JonP]
we were talking about "dumb-down"
17:07:17 [aliman]
I'll try to write email in the next couple of days
17:07:47 [aliman]
bye :)
17:07:55 [JonP]
and no, that wasn't in reference to my wife's sisters
17:09:01 [JonP]
TomB: cya on the internet
17:09:12 [TomB]
want to Skype?
17:09:27 [JonP]
sure
18:30:32 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
18:30:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd
18:30:35 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-actions.rdf :
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa and Sean to review SKOS editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/UCRMaterial?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ucr-20070306.html by 27 March [1]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-15
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to write down the general documentation requirements, in particular to those that are related to literal values, and how to represent that in skos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [2]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-27
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to write up the preferredLabel modelling issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action01] [3]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-38
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09] [4]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-20-48
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus revise his ACTION-26 proposal to account for other options [5]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-36-19
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to propose resolution to SKOS issue 26 circa 15 March for discussion on 20 March [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-swd-minutes.html#action09] [6]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-37-33
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus ping Antoine regarding status of SKOS Use Cases editors' draft [7]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-38-48
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [8]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-39-14
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa to summarize state of Vocabulary Management draft, add comments, and coordinate work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action06] [9]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-40-46
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben make sure http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/20070305/ is pubrules compliant and hand to Ralph [10]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-51-07
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to send mail to Semantic Web and HTML mailing lists publicizing and soliciting comments on RDFa Primer and RDFa Use Cases work [11]
18:30:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/20-swd-irc#T15-53-22