IRC log of rif on 2007-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:28:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:28:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:28:54 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
14:29:13 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 20 Mar 07
14:29:22 [ChrisW]
Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:29:42 [ChrisW]
14:29:54 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 20 Mar RIF agenda:
14:30:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:30:08 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:30:14 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin'
14:30:21 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:30:27 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:30:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Technical Design
14:30:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ UCR
14:30:47 [ChrisW]
agenda+ RIFRAF
14:30:51 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:30:59 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:30:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
14:39:09 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:58 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
14:54:11 [patranja]
patranja has joined #rif
14:54:25 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:54:39 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:54:45 [Zakim]
14:54:53 [Francois]
zakim, ??IP34 is me.
14:54:53 [Zakim]
sorry, Francois, I do not recognize a party named '??IP34'
14:55:06 [Francois]
zakim, ??P34 is me.
14:55:06 [Zakim]
+Francois; got it
14:55:28 [Francois]
zakim, mute me.
14:55:28 [Zakim]
sorry, Francois, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:56:34 [agiurca]
agiurca has joined #rif
14:57:22 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
14:57:31 [Zakim]
14:57:51 [agiurca]
zakim, TU-Cottbus is me
14:57:51 [Zakim]
+agiurca; got it
14:57:52 [Francois]
zakim, mute me.
14:57:52 [Zakim]
Francois should now be muted
14:57:56 [Zakim]
14:58:00 [agiurca]
zakim, mute me
14:58:00 [Zakim]
agiurca should now be muted
14:58:08 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
14:58:08 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
14:58:13 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
14:59:23 [Zakim]
14:59:53 [Zakim]
14:59:58 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #rif
15:00:05 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:00:05 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
15:00:06 [Zakim]
15:00:11 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
15:00:13 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
15:00:16 [Hassan]
what's the beeping?
15:00:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:00:21 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:00:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
15:00:27 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:36 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Harold (45%)
15:00:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute harold
15:00:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:46 [Zakim]
Harold should now be muted
15:00:50 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [Zakim]
15:01:09 [Zakim]
15:01:10 [Zakim]
15:01:11 [csma]
zakim, ??P46 is me
15:01:11 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:01:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Francois (muted), agiurca (muted), Harold (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), ChrisW, Sandro, csma
15:01:20 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:37 [Zakim]
15:01:42 [Zakim]
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was ??P18)
15:01:46 [Harold]
zakim, unmute me
15:01:46 [Zakim]
Harold should no longer be muted
15:01:50 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:02:05 [csma]
Francois, can you scribe today?
15:02:07 [Zakim]
15:02:10 [Zakim]
15:02:18 [Harold]
zakim, mute me
15:02:19 [Zakim]
15:02:20 [Zakim]
Harold should now be muted
15:02:24 [Zakim]
+ +49.892.180.aaaa
15:02:25 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
15:02:31 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:33 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:02:33 [Harold]
OK, will call again.
15:02:35 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IBM] (4%), ChrisW (55%), csma (36%)
15:02:40 [Francois]
zakim, please unmute me.
15:02:43 [Zakim]
15:02:44 [Zakim]
Francois should no longer be muted
15:03:19 [Zakim]
15:03:29 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:03:29 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:03:41 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Francois, agiurca (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), josb (muted), PaulaP
15:03:44 [Zakim]
... (muted), Harold
15:04:11 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Francois Bry
15:04:19 [ChrisW]
scribenick: francois
15:04:39 [Francois]
Christian: Review actions. No admin action?
15:05:04 [Francois]
Christian: Approve minutes of last week telecon. Objections?
15:05:12 [Zakim]
15:05:20 [Francois]
Christian: No objections. Minutes approved.
15:05:38 [ChrisW]
RESOLUTION: Accept minutes of 3/13 telecon
15:05:50 [Francois]
.. of March 13 telecon. Minutes of F2F 5 approved? Objections?
15:06:07 [ChrisW]
RESOLUTION: Approved F2F5 minutes
15:06:08 [Zakim]
15:06:10 [Francois]
Christian: Minutes of F2F 5 approved.
15:06:23 [Francois]
Christian: Amendments to the agenda? None.
15:06:38 [Zakim]
15:06:47 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rif
15:06:49 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:06:51 [Zakim]
15:06:55 [Zakim]
15:07:07 [Harold]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:07:07 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:07:20 [Zakim]
15:07:35 [pfps]
zakim, ??P49 is me
15:07:35 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
15:07:38 [Francois]
Christian: First topic F2F 6. Looking at answer to questionnaire. Only one day where all can attend June 2nd-3rd (ie week end) in Innsbruck.
15:07:49 [Francois]
Christian: comments? None.
15:08:36 [Harold]
I moved from my landline to Skype (and it worked right away).
15:08:53 [PhilippeB]
PhilippeB has joined #rif
15:08:55 [ChrisW]
ACTION: josb to confirm availability of F2F meeting facilities in Innsbruck
15:08:55 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - josb
15:08:58 [Francois]
Chris: Action on josb to confirm availqability of facility F2F 6 on june 2-3 in Innbruck.
15:09:11 [ChrisW]
ACTION: jos_de to confirm availability of F2F meeting facilities in Innsbruck
15:09:11 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jos_de
15:09:48 [ChrisW]
ACTION: jdebruij to confirm availability of F2F meeting facilities in Innsbruck
15:09:53 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-267 - Confirm availability of F2F meeting facilities in Innsbruck [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-03-27].
15:09:55 [Zakim]
15:09:58 [Zakim]
+Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P63)
15:10:01 [PhilippeB]
Zakim, mute me
15:10:01 [Zakim]
Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
15:10:03 [Francois]
Christian: Who offers to host F2F 7 late Aug to early Sept. Preferences Sept in North America.
15:10:43 [Francois]
Christian: No deadline for offers yet but F2F 7 should be finalize before F2F 6 (June 2-3).
15:10:45 [csma]
15:11:17 [Francois]
Chris: Plenary will be fist week of November. Does not fit well with RIF F2F.
15:11:35 [sandro]
-> W3C Tech Plenary 2007 (Member Only, sorry)
15:12:01 [Francois]
Christian: Next topic Liaisons.
15:12:09 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:12:31 [Francois]
Christian: Reports on liaisons? None.
15:12:58 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Francois, agiurca (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), josb (muted), PaulaP
15:13:01 [Zakim]
... (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, Mike_Dean, Harold, Gary_Hallmark, pfps, Philippe_Bonnard (muted)
15:13:25 [Francois]
Christian: Related to liaison. The WISMO WG have an example of proof-of-concept interchange of rules.
15:13:47 [Francois]
Christian: Does someone want to translate their rules in RIF?
15:13:59 [Francois]
Harold: I might be interested in doing it.
15:14:42 [Zakim]
15:14:48 [Francois]
Christian: I'll ask for getting this example and putting it on the RIF Wiki.
15:14:53 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:14:53 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:15:06 [PaulaP]
15:15:10 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Christian to check with MISMO that their proof of concept example can be published to RIF
15:15:11 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-268 - Check with MISMO that their proof of concept example can be published to RIF [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-03-27].
15:15:13 [Francois]
15:15:25 [ChrisW]
15:15:42 [Francois]
Christian: MISMO: Mortgage Industry Standard ...
15:16:18 [Francois]
Chris: New Incubator activity ask RIF to look at what they are doing on incertainty reasoning.
15:16:24 [Zakim]
15:16:39 [Francois]
Christian: JeffPan and Iorgos should be interested.
15:16:45 [agiurca]
both of them are there
15:17:03 [Francois]
15:17:17 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 3
15:17:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:18 [Francois]
15:17:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 4
15:17:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:18:04 [Francois]
Christian: More on liaison? No. Move to next topic technical design.
15:18:13 [sandro]
15:19:20 [Francois]
Christian: actions have been worked out or are continued.
15:19:46 [Francois]
Christian: The frozen version for RIF core has been published on Friday.
15:20:18 [Francois]
Christian: We decided we cannot stop it any longer. Can be rfev iewd up till the end of the week. We'll vote on it next Tuesday.
15:20:37 [Francois]
s/rfev iewd/reviewed/
15:20:57 [Francois]
Christian: Two reactions, one from Dave. Comments?
15:21:59 [Francois]
Dave: Small editorial things. Two issues: syntax of sorts and examples all in the non-sorted syntax.
15:22:22 [Francois]
Dave: I suggest to explain that in a caveat.
15:22:31 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:22:31 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:22:41 [Zakim]
15:22:42 [Francois]
Christian: This has already been decided.
15:22:42 [Zakim]
15:23:07 [Francois]
Michael: there was a proposal to start with sorts but leaving examples without sorts for not delaying.
15:23:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:23:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Francois, agiurca (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), josb (muted), PaulaP
15:23:11 [Zakim]
... (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, Mike_Dean, Harold, pfps, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Michael_Kifer
15:23:29 [Francois]
Michael: Regarding syntax of sorts. This has not been discussed at the F2F.
15:23:31 [Zakim]
15:23:36 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:23:36 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:23:51 [Harold]
Dave's caveat wording for his i1) is fine with me.
15:24:02 [Francois]
Christian: Dave's is proposal to add a caveat about the Unsorted examples.
15:24:09 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:24:09 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:24:14 [Francois]
Christian: Objections to doing this?
15:24:46 [Francois]
Michael: Maybe should we say something in the sorted part that future version will give examples with sorts.
15:24:55 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:25:22 [Francois]
Dave: My proposal is to add something before Example 3.
15:25:44 [Francois]
Christian: Or after introduction of miltisorted logic.
15:25:59 [Francois]
Chris: Close to an example is preferable.
15:26:19 [csma]
The examples of BNF and XML rule syntax given here use the unsorted version of the condition syntax and fail to illustrate the use of URIs for constants. This will be addressed in a future working draft.
15:26:22 [Francois]
Christian: Objections to adding Dave's caveat before Example 3?
15:26:51 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Add " "The examples of BNF and XML rule syntax given here use the unsorted
15:26:51 [ChrisW]
version of the condition syntax and fail to illustrate the use of URIs
15:26:51 [ChrisW]
for constants. This will be addressed in a future working draft."
15:26:58 [ChrisW]
to the CORE WD
15:27:04 [Francois]
Christian: No objections? None. Issue resolved, caveat will be added.
15:27:23 [Francois]
Chris: Harold and Michael, do you take the action?
15:27:36 [Francois]
Harold: I take it.
15:27:53 [Francois]
Michael: We could easily add sorts in Example 3.
15:28:24 [Francois]
Christian: This could convey a wrong message on how sorts are to be.
15:28:37 [Francois]
Michael: But we already decided on this.
15:28:49 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Harold to add DaveR's caveat text to CORE
15:28:49 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-269 - Add DaveR\'s caveat text to CORE [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-27].
15:28:55 [Francois]
Chris: Let us keep the example as it is for now.
15:29:06 [Francois]
Chris: let us have this caveat added.
15:29:42 [Francois]
Christian: Regarding Dave's second comment (syntax for primitive sort). What do we do?
15:30:04 [csma]
15:30:11 [agiurca]
the usual way is to keep concepts which are already known
15:30:27 [Francois]
Francois: Dave"s syntax proposal is standard and rather nice. Why not take it?
15:31:19 [Francois]
Dave: It seems to be a small syntactic thing. Benefice would be to have it look like in other SW languages.
15:31:50 [csma]
15:31:58 [Hassan]
15:32:40 [Francois]
Michael: You mean N3 syntax?
15:33:02 [csma]
ack hassan
15:33:14 [Francois]
Hassan: I agree with Francois. This might conflict with namespaces.
15:33:21 [csma]
zakim, who is talking?
15:33:31 [Francois]
Hassan: The notation in the WD is contrive and ugly.
15:33:32 [Zakim]
csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Kifer (100%), Sandro (9%), Francois (4%), Harold (50%)
15:33:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute harold
15:33:59 [Zakim]
Harold should now be muted
15:34:22 [Francois]
Dave: in N3 there are quotes. Integer unquoted is like ????
15:34:38 [sandro]
Harold, we were getting noise that sounded like something touching the microphone, like fabric, or maybe wind.
15:34:48 [Francois]
Michael: If there is consensus to change this syntax, I'll change it.
15:35:07 [sandro]
s/????/in our draft, a shortcut.
15:35:14 [Harold]
Sandro, there was a test alarm for our server room.
15:35:29 [Francois]
Hassan: I'll prefer the simpler and most naturakl and most known. value column sort or something like that.
15:35:32 [sandro]
Very considerate of them, Harold. :-)
15:36:06 [josb]
because it is standard!
15:36:12 [agiurca]
Why we don't use the textual syntax as for example "lexicalValue"^^"sort"
15:36:20 [agiurca]
+1 josb
15:37:05 [csma]
15:37:43 [Francois]
Chris: Only two choices: keeping how it is now or choose the notation of another formalism.
15:37:48 [sandro]
The single-hat was used for something else in N3.
15:37:59 [Francois]
Christian: SEcond choise is "lexicalValue"^^"sort" for WD 1.
15:38:05 [Hassan]
No but ...
15:38:07 [Francois]
15:38:16 [Harold]
zakim, unmute me
15:38:16 [Zakim]
Harold should no longer be muted
15:38:30 [sandro]
(The single-hat was used for the same thing "." and "->" are commonly used for in other languages.)
15:38:45 [Francois]
Hassan: There are no rweason for _. It does not kae it easier to parse.
15:39:02 [Harold]
I don't know why "sort" be in quotes?
15:39:09 [PaulaP]
15:39:11 [Francois]
Christian: Desion is between _sort"value" or "lexicalValue"^^"sort".
15:39:28 [Francois]
Christian: No objections against "lexicalValue"^^"sort".
15:39:32 [PaulaP]
15:39:46 [Francois]
Hassan: One character should be enough ^ not ^^.
15:40:14 [Hassan]
Great! Ubu roi...
15:40:18 [Francois]
Chris: Like in RDF or like in the current draft. No other choice.
15:40:51 [Francois]
Christian: It is _sort"value" or "lexicalValue"^^"sort". Objections against "lexicalValue"^^"sort".
15:40:52 [josb]
+1 for ^^
15:41:07 [mdean]
+1 for ^^
15:41:23 [Francois]
Christian: No objections. "lexicalValue"^^"sort" chosen. Who implement the modification in WD Core?
15:41:50 [PaulaP]
15:42:00 [Francois]
Michael: How is the syntax exactly? "lexicalValue"^^"sort" or "lexicalValue"^^sort ?
15:42:16 [Harold]
I take the action.
15:42:26 [Francois]
Chris: "lexicalValue"^^sort?
15:42:42 [Francois]
ichael: What should be the syntax for variables?
15:42:53 [PaulaP]
15:43:05 [Harold]
Variables should be "lexicalValue"^^?Varname I think.
15:43:06 [agiurca]
In XML syntax variables may be something like xs:NCName
15:43:19 [Francois]
Christian: Action on Harold for changing syntax of sort annotations.
15:43:30 [mdean]
N3 does not have sorted variables
15:43:48 [Harold]
15:43:57 [Harold]
I meant the latter.
15:44:04 [Francois]
Dave: I porose the N3 syntax for values not for variables.
15:44:15 [PaulaP]
15:44:19 [Francois]
Dave: My suggestiuon was to align on something already published.
15:44:30 [PaulaP]
15:44:37 [Francois]
Chrisitan: Harold's proposal ?varname^%^ sort.
15:44:41 [Harold]
So we have ?Varname^^sort for sorted variables and "lexicalValue"^^sort for sorted literals.
15:44:45 [Francois]
Michael: this is reasonable to me.
15:45:02 [PaulaP]
15:45:15 [Francois]
Chris: replace _sortWHATEVER by WHATEVER^^sort.
15:45:15 [PaulaP]
15:45:16 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Harold to change _sort syntax to ^^sort syntax
15:45:17 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-270 - Change _sort syntax to ^^sort syntax [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-27].
15:45:33 [Francois]
Christian: action on Harold implementing this change.
15:45:36 [sandro]
15:46:01 [Francois]
Christian: An orther srt of comments by Francois.
15:46:12 [sandro]
scribenick: sandro
15:46:35 [sandro]
Francois: It was systematic issues in the text, most of which have been resolved.
15:46:49 [sandro]
... Not happy with "I", the interpretation function.
15:47:11 [sandro]
... the subscript, "e" constant, "e" function, etc.
15:47:19 [sandro]
... these are stylistic details.
15:47:24 [sandro]
... in the Semantics section
15:48:08 [sandro]
MichaelKifer: There is a function, I<sub>truth</sub> .... Francois wants to call it I<sub>formula</sub>. This is truth evaluation, in every text book
15:48:17 [sandro]
Francois: I don't really agree, but it's okay.
15:48:45 [sandro]
Francois: It makes the text harder to understand, but it's not impossible to understand.
15:49:09 [sandro]
CSMA: Stylistic questions like this, we'll have to deal with before the final draft, but let's keep it like this for now.
15:49:13 [sandro]
Francois: Okay
15:49:27 [sandro]
scribenick: Francois
15:50:07 [Francois]
Christian: WE'll vote on next Tuesday. Mention objections or issues before. I expect the document to be accepted.
15:50:20 [Francois]
SAndro: will the WD1 be published soon after the vote?
15:50:30 [PaulaP]
15:50:37 [PaulaP]
15:50:43 [Francois]
Christian: If we vote to publish the text, there should only be minor changes.
15:50:49 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:50:49 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:51:09 [Francois]
Sandro: Formating and the like will be needed. One day work or so.
15:51:24 [sandro]
s/One day work or so/A few days work/
15:51:31 [Francois]
Chrisitian: Then we'll have 2 months for producing a much better WD2.
15:51:54 [Francois]
Chrisitan: Let us more to the next topic is issue 30, the RIF URI.
15:52:01 [PaulaP]
15:52:15 [PaulaP]
15:52:35 [csma]
15:52:41 [Francois]
Chris: There has been discussions on this at the last F2F. rif:uri has not been defined. Hence the issue recorded.
15:52:59 [Francois]
Chris: We were pretty close to an understanding at F2F, I think.
15:53:20 [Francois]
Christian: Can someone summarize the positions on rif:uri? Jos?
15:53:27 [csma]
ack jos
15:53:37 [Francois]
Christian: josb are you there?
15:54:52 [MichaelKifer]
15:55:01 [Francois]
josb: THe discussion was to clarify what is meant by URIs. It seems that a URI in RIF is the same as the XML schema data type anyUri. This is not the case. WE do not want URI be interpretaed as themselves but instead as individual in some particular domain.
15:55:12 [PaulaP]
15:55:21 [PaulaP]
15:55:24 [Francois]
josb: we have to characterize the syntactical class of uri.
15:55:28 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:55:28 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:55:33 [csma]
ack michael
15:56:16 [Francois]
Michael: I changed the document. URI can now denote resources on the web. It is not clear whether we need anyUri at all.
15:57:23 [Francois]
Michael: the mention is in section multisorted syntax at the end.
15:57:33 [Francois]
Christian: josb what decision do you suggest?
15:57:47 [Francois]
josb: I do n ot understand why we need a sort for URIS.
15:58:16 [Francois]
Michael: Do you mean it should be called "resource" instead of "uri"?
15:58:51 [Francois]
josb: we should have constants interpreted in the usual abstract domain. A sort "resource" might be closer to what we actually want.
15:58:52 [ChrisW]
Harold - I found three instances of "sortal" in the frozen draft
15:58:54 [Francois]
15:59:08 [Francois]
: syntactic control is need.
15:59:09 [ChrisW]
hsould be changed to "sort"
15:59:30 [Francois]
15:59:35 [Francois]
15:59:39 [Francois]
15:59:40 [Harold]
In, "Syntax for Primitive Sorts" it says: rif:uri. Constants of this sort have the form _rif:uri"XYZ" where XYZ is a URI as specified in RFC 3986.
15:59:46 [Harold]
zakim, mute me
15:59:46 [Zakim]
Harold should now be muted
15:59:52 [csma]
16:00:12 [csma]
ack Francois
16:01:28 [Hassan]
16:01:58 [Francois]
Francois: There are two ways. Uris interpreted as "resources" or interpreted freely by any individual in the daom ain.
16:02:08 [csma]
ack hassan
16:02:10 [Francois]
s/daom ain/domain/
16:02:42 [Francois]
Hassan: If you assign a sort to Uris, since uris are used for defining sorts, ehat is the sort of a sort?
16:02:51 [Francois]
Christian: Solution?
16:03:37 [Francois]
assan: Uris should denote only resources. They are syntactic object. Uri have a particular syntactic form. Then have to be giben a denotation.
16:03:45 [Francois]
16:03:47 [PaulaP]
16:04:30 [csma]
16:04:35 [Francois]
Hassan: If it is a syntactic object, it cxan only have a meta-sort.
16:04:42 [Francois]
16:05:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
16:05:28 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:05:30 [Francois]
Michael: Sorts are not constant in the domain.
16:05:38 [Francois]
16:05:40 [Francois]
16:05:42 [Francois]
16:06:03 [Francois]
Chris: What would belong to the sort Uri?
16:06:10 [Harold]
Jos, at F2F5 we discussed the issue that several syntactic URIs can denote the same individual in the domain. RFC 3986 introduces a normalization algorithm, but I have not yet seen a formal equality theory for URIs (URI forwarding is hard to deal with).
16:06:31 [DaveReynolds]
16:06:35 [Francois]
Christian: Can you give an example where we need a constant of sort URI?
16:07:00 [DaveReynolds]
16:07:07 [Francois]
Michael: predicvate name refer to an object on the web and we use a uri to retrieve it.
16:07:25 [PaulaP]
16:07:26 [Francois]
16:07:29 [Francois]
16:07:53 [josb]
16:07:55 [csma]
ack franc
16:08:38 [Hassan]
16:12:21 [josb]
These are signatures, not sorts!
16:12:44 [Francois]
Michael: URIs should be used for identifying names of predicates.
16:12:47 [csma]
ack josb
16:13:01 [Francois]
Christian: Part of the probelm seems to be we do not know what uri are to be used for.
16:13:24 [Francois]
josb: interesting thing is that URI have a semantical domain associted with this sort.
16:13:55 [Francois]
josb: uri for identifying names of predicate has nothing to do with sorts.
16:14:13 [Francois]
Michael: two issues: syntax of uri and domain for their interpretation.
16:14:31 [Francois]
josb: What is the point in having this sort?
16:14:42 [Francois]
ichael: for using uris as names of predicated.
16:14:51 [Francois]
osb: no need of a URI sort for this.
16:15:07 [PaulaP]
16:15:18 [PaulaP]
16:15:23 [Francois]
Michael: we need to assign signature to them. this does not seem feasible.
16:15:33 [Francois]
Michael: we need to group them.
16:15:53 [Francois]
Michael: we need machanism to assign signature to constants.
16:16:02 [Francois]
josb: why is sort needed for that.
16:16:11 [Francois]
ichael: what other mechanism is suitable?
16:16:12 [PaulaP]
s/machanism/a mechanism
16:16:15 [PaulaP]
16:16:22 [Francois]
josb: think of any other kid of mechanism.
16:16:25 [DaveReynolds]
16:16:30 [PaulaP]
16:16:41 [Francois]
Christian: can you propsoe such a mechanism?
16:16:52 [PaulaP]
16:16:53 [Francois]
16:17:00 [csma]
ack hassan
16:17:08 [Francois]
Christian: action on josb on that.
16:17:18 [ChrisW]
action: jdebrui to propose a mechanism that doesn't have a problem with signatures for uris
16:17:18 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jdebrui
16:17:47 [Francois]
Hassan: I am confused. Take variables instead of URI. If a syntactic category of variables are capitalized.
16:17:48 [ChrisW]
action: jdebruij to propose a mechanism that doesn't have a problem with signatures for uris
16:17:48 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-271 - Propose a mechanism that doesn\'t have a problem with signatures for uris [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-03-27].
16:18:14 [Francois]
Hassan: Ambiguity is built in.
16:19:01 [Francois]
Hassan: Using URIS for syntactical cateories and fdor constants is ambiguous.
16:19:10 [Francois]
Michael: this is not done.
16:19:17 [PaulaP]
16:19:36 [Francois]
Hassan: p(f, x) if all of p f x can be uri, what is the variable?
16:19:39 [Hassan]
16:19:46 [csma]
ack daveR
16:19:49 [ChrisW]
action: hassan to propose example of ambiguity
16:19:49 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-272 - Propose example of ambiguity [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2007-03-27].
16:19:50 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
16:19:54 [Francois]
Christian: Dave?
16:21:05 [ChrisW]
DaveR: If the question is about using URIs for e.g. predicate names as well as other kinds of constants, then why?
16:21:42 [csma]
16:21:49 [Francois]
Michael: THis is what the current linear syntax has. I need to think of thne abstract syntax.
16:22:33 [Francois]
Christian: We are not able to resolve the issue right now. I would like the paragraph about RIF mentioning that there is an open issue on the topic.
16:23:00 [Francois]
Christian: I do not think it is clear what it means using uris as references to resources.
16:23:15 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:23:15 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:23:22 [Francois]
Christian: the reference to "rdfs resources" should be more specific.
16:23:24 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:23:24 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:23:51 [ChrisW]
action: michael to add reference to URI issue
16:23:51 [rifbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
16:23:51 [rifbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. merdmann, mkifer, msintek, uscholdm)
16:24:06 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer to add reference to URI issue
16:24:07 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-273 - Add reference to URI issue [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-27].
16:24:08 [Francois]
Michael: I can mention the issue in the doc. I am not sure what can be done for the second request.
16:24:32 [Francois]
Christian: "in a way similar to a wohle doc." is not clear.
16:24:46 [Francois]
Michael: we should only say we'll resolve the issue later.
16:24:59 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:24:59 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer was not muted, MichaelKifer
16:25:03 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:25:03 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:25:23 [Harold]
I will do the sortal->sort change (without action item).
16:25:32 [Francois]
Chris: in typos. I can fix it in the wiki if this is ok.
16:26:14 [Francois]
Christian: Second issue not being formally raised by Deborah yet: distinct anmes for predicate, functions and constants.
16:26:24 [Harold]
zakim, unmute me
16:26:24 [Zakim]
Harold should no longer be muted
16:26:31 [Francois]
16:26:33 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:26:33 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:27:01 [Francois]
Harold: it is a typical misundserstanding between "constant" and individual constants"
16:27:19 [Francois]
Harold: the can be "function constant", "predicate constants" as well.
16:27:52 [Francois]
Michael: the issue was whether the sets of individual constants, function symbols and predicate symbols should be pairwise disjoint.
16:28:17 [Francois]
Christian: the wording in the issue uses the word "constant" in a maybe misleading manner.
16:28:53 [Francois]
Christian: If the above mentioned sets are pairwise disjoint in RIF CORE, how to to remove it in a RIF dialect.
16:29:16 [Francois]
Michael: no problem, it is a matter of assigning more signature to constants.
16:29:30 [PaulaP]
16:29:30 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
16:29:30 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:29:34 [Francois]
Christian: AOB? Any other URGENT business? None. Adjourned.
16:29:37 [Zakim]
16:29:40 [Zakim]
16:29:45 [Zakim]
16:29:45 [agiurca]
16:29:47 [Zakim]
16:29:48 [Zakim]
16:29:49 [Zakim]
16:29:51 [Zakim]
16:29:52 [Zakim]
16:29:53 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:29:53 [Zakim]
16:29:55 [Zakim]
16:29:57 [Zakim]
16:30:32 [ChrisW]
Regrets: AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent, DavidHirtle, MichaelSintek
16:31:01 [Zakim]
16:31:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Mike_Dean, pfps
16:31:10 [Zakim]
16:31:12 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:31:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', csma
16:31:13 [Francois]
16:31:20 [Zakim]
16:31:32 [ChrisW]
zakim, drop Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:32 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern is being disconnected
16:31:32 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Leora_Morgenstern (muted)
16:31:35 [Zakim]
16:33:53 [Zakim]
16:33:56 [Zakim]
16:34:11 [Zakim]
16:34:12 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:34:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were Francois, agiurca, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, IgorMozetic, ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Deborah_Nichols, Dave_Reynolds, josb, StellaMitchell, PaulaP, Leora_Morgenstern,
16:34:16 [Zakim]
... Mike_Dean, Gary_Hallmark, pfps, Philippe_Bonnard, Michael_Kifer
16:34:26 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW