IRC log of dawg on 2007-03-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:21:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:21:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
14:21:13 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:21:13 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:21:29 [LeeF]
Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly
14:21:34 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:21:36 [LeeF]
Scribe: EricP
14:21:39 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0146.html
14:21:45 [LeeF]
Regrets:
14:21:50 [LeeF]
agenda + convene
14:22:06 [LeeF]
agenda + review action items
14:22:15 [LeeF]
agenda + unexpected/auto DISTINCT
14:22:25 [LeeF]
agenda + normative and informative parts of rq25
14:22:33 [LeeF]
agenda + open issues
14:22:37 [LeeF]
agenda + last call
14:23:30 [AndyS]
SPARQL/Update :: a draft proposal for comment :: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update.html
14:24:06 [jeen]
jeen has joined #dawg
14:24:32 [AndyS]
Two editors :-) and we have a need for this soon
14:26:06 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
14:26:06 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF
14:26:26 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:26:33 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:26:42 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge holds LeeF, EliasT
14:26:42 [Zakim]
+LeeF, EliasT; got it
14:26:55 [Zakim]
+PatH
14:27:20 [Zakim]
+??P31
14:27:24 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P31 is me
14:27:24 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:27:27 [Zakim]
+??P30
14:27:38 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P30 is me
14:27:38 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
14:27:42 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
14:27:42 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:27:44 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:29:34 [Zakim]
+Orri_Erling
14:30:33 [ericP]
ericP has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Working Group weekly telecon — agenda http://www.w3.org/mid/OFF7EA9239.E611D26C-ON8525729B.001BB7B3-8525729B.001D2E9A@us.ibm.com
14:30:57 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:31:02 [jeen]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:31:02 [Zakim]
+jeen; got it
14:32:33 [LeeF]
SteveH, are you going to be able to join us today?
14:32:42 [SteveH]
LeeF, yes
14:32:42 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:33:18 [Zakim]
+SteveH
14:33:52 [SimonR]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:33:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], PatH, AndyS, SimonR, EricP, Orri_Erling, jeen, SteveH
14:33:54 [Zakim]
[IBMCambridge] has LeeF, EliasT
14:33:54 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0146.html
14:34:08 [LeeF]
zakim, who's speaking?
14:34:20 [Zakim]
LeeF, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (7%), jeen (86%)
14:34:42 [jeen]
Zakim, mute me
14:34:42 [Zakim]
jeen should now be muted
14:34:58 [LeeF]
zakim, who's speaking?
14:35:10 [Zakim]
LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:35:44 [LeeF]
minutes from 6 mar: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html
14:36:11 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes minutes from 2007-03-06
14:36:50 [jeen]
minutes look fine to me (sorry I wasn't there)
14:36:53 [EliasT]
Second
14:37:13 [ericP]
PROPOSED: approve minutes from 2007-03-06 as a true record of the last meeting
14:37:16 [ericP]
APPROVED
14:37:53 [ericP]
next meeting: 2007-03-20T14:30Z, scribe: EliasT
14:38:15 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:38:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "review action items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:38:38 [LeeF]
ACTION: EricP to add text to spec noting that ORDER BY comparisons may use extended implementations of < that operate on types beyond what's given in the operator table [DONE]
14:38:44 [ericP]
action -1
14:38:53 [LeeF]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
14:39:01 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not) POSTing application/sparql-query documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]
14:39:08 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]
14:39:10 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
14:39:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
14:39:11 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:12 [Zakim]
1. convene [from LeeF]
14:39:16 [LeeF]
zakim, close agendum 1
14:39:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1, convene, closed
14:39:17 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:18 [Zakim]
3. unexpected/auto DISTINCT [from LeeF]
14:39:21 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:39:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "unexpected/auto DISTINCT" taken up [from LeeF]
14:39:43 [LeeF]
Eric's summary of the DISTINCT issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0147.html
14:39:57 [ericP]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0147 Eric's summary of the DISTINCT issue
14:43:04 [ericP]
LeeF: any epiphones?
14:43:53 [ericP]
SimonR: partial DISTINCTness available via a clever OPTIONAL clause
14:45:39 [ericP]
default keywords
14:45:39 [ericP]
1 ALL DISTINCT
14:45:39 [ericP]
2 ALL DISTINCT, LOOSE
14:45:39 [ericP]
3 LOOSE DISTINCT
14:45:39 [ericP]
4 LOOSE DISTINCT, ALL
14:45:41 [ericP]
5 DISTINCT
14:46:50 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:46:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], PatH, AndyS, SimonR, EricP, Orri_Erling, jeen (muted), SteveH
14:46:53 [Zakim]
[IBMCambridge] has LeeF, EliasT
14:47:13 [iv_an_ru]
iv_an_ru has joined #dawg
14:48:23 [ericP]
Steve: -1 +.5 -1 +1 -1
14:48:25 [jeen]
Zakim, unmute me
14:48:26 [Zakim]
jeen should no longer be muted
14:49:04 [ericP]
Jeen: +1 0 0 0 -1
14:49:32 [ericP]
Souri: +1 0 0 0 -1
14:49:48 [ericP]
Ori: +1 0 0 0 -1
14:50:07 [LeeF]
s/Ori/Orri
14:50:18 [ericP]
ericP: +.9 0 -.5 +1 -1
14:50:30 [ericP]
s/Souri: +1 0 0 0 -1//
14:50:43 [ericP]
SimonR: 0 0 0 0 0
14:51:00 [ericP]
AndyS: +1 0 -1 -1 -1
14:51:33 [ericP]
patH: +1 +1 0 0 0
14:52:22 [ericP]
EliasT: +1 0 -1 -1 -1
14:53:35 [Souri]
Souri has joined #dawg
14:54:20 [Zakim]
+Souri_Das
14:54:22 [ericP]
LeeF: appears to be leaning towards 1
14:54:47 [ericP]
SteveH: implementing ALL easy (and done)
14:54:57 [ericP]
... but I lose a lot of performance
14:55:18 [ericP]
... may implement it, but add a LOOSE keyword
14:55:43 [AndyS]
Observation: LOOSE = ALL over an imaginary smaller dataset/graph.
14:57:42 [SimonR]
DISTINCT/ALL is sort of the difference between COUNT(PROJECT(X)) and PROJECT(COUNT(X)) -- maybe if projection wasn't tied to the SELECT clause we'd have a better way. (As always, too much change required to explore this....)
14:57:56 [ericP]
Souri: 0 +1 0 0 0
14:58:05 [patH]
Not always, I think, Andy. Because that smaller imaginary graph wouldnt give you all the real answers.
14:58:42 [AndyS]
Simon - agree - there an overly tight binding of project and expressions
14:59:11 [SteveH]
observation: noone disliked 2 explictly
14:59:24 [AndyS]
Example: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3 ORDER BY, LIMIT 3 => 1,1,1 ; 1,2,2 ; 1,1,2 ; 1,2,3 ??
14:59:31 [patH]
Can we do 2 but not REQUIRE that loose be supported?
15:00:15 [SteveH]
patH, an impl of LOOSE = ALL or DISTINCT is valid
15:00:29 [AndyS]
It would be the only optional feature in the spec.
15:01:09 [AndyS]
And we have no service descriptions :-)
15:04:06 [ericP]
ericP: now +1 on 2
15:04:34 [LeeF]
PROPOSE: SPARQL SELECT queries with no keyword following SELECT must return the precise cardinality of duplicate solutions specified by the algebra; SPARQL contains a @@ LOOSE keyword that allows duplicate solutions to be returned with cardinality of at least 1 and no greater than that specified by the algebra
15:04:36 [ericP]
SteveH: query modification to access functionality is fine for me
15:05:36 [ericP]
+1
15:13:26 [ericP]
afs: am reluctant introduce a new keyword for an seemingly arbitrarily selected optimization
15:15:50 [LeeF]
Option 1: by default, ALL; only keyword is DISTINCT
15:15:52 [ericP]
ericP: we have a test with counting semantics already. afs, SteveH and I passed it but with different assumptions (1 vs 2)
15:15:58 [LeeF]
Option 2: by default, ALL; add a @@ LOOSE keyword
15:16:14 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:16:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], PatH, AndyS, SimonR, EricP, Orri_Erling, jeen, SteveH, Souri_Das
15:16:18 [Zakim]
[IBMCambridge] has LeeF, EliasT
15:16:29 [ericP]
EliasT: +1 0
15:16:36 [ericP]
patH: 0 +1
15:16:48 [ericP]
afs: +1 -1
15:16:52 [SimonR]
SimonR: 0 0
15:17:01 [ericP]
ericP: 0 +1
15:17:10 [ericP]
orri: +1 0
15:17:16 [ericP]
jeen: +1 0
15:17:22 [ericP]
SteveH: -1 +1
15:17:29 [ericP]
Souri: 0 +1
15:17:38 [LeeF]
3 and 3
15:18:27 [AndyS]
3 and 4 on +1's :: each has a -1
15:18:46 [ericP]
LeeF: share andy's concearn, but can mark it "at risk" and let implementors define
15:22:33 [ericP]
afs: i think that putting it in and marking it "at risk" is setting the default
15:27:06 [ericP]
out of connearn for Steve-like implementations, i change to: -1 +1
15:29:37 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: draft text about a LOOSE keyword and run it by w3 folks to see if we're abusing the "at risk" mechanism
15:30:03 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to seek guidance about at-risk features from the CG
15:30:08 [ericP]
LeeF: if that's acceptable, I will propose 2, otherwise propose 1
15:30:22 [LeeF]
zakim, close this agendum
15:30:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
15:30:23 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:30:24 [Zakim]
4. normative and informative parts of rq25 [from LeeF]
15:31:21 [ericP]
LeeF: KendallC says we should say what's informative vs. normative
15:32:08 [ericP]
... AndyS said that unless otherwise noted, numbered sections are normative and lettered appendicies are informative
15:32:32 [ericP]
... i think that 2 and 3 are informative
15:32:51 [SimonR]
SimonR has joined #dawg
15:34:38 [Zakim]
-SimonR
15:34:48 [ericP]
I just labeled 2 and 3 informative
15:36:19 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to mark sections 2 and 3 informative, Appendices B and D normative in the text and table of contents and 1.1 document outline
15:37:11 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nestedOptionals nested optionals
15:37:18 [Zakim]
+??P30
15:37:27 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P30 is me
15:37:27 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
15:37:41 [ericP]
LeeF: I believe that the algebra in the document addresses nested optionals
15:37:49 [LeeF]
PROPOSED that the current algebra of rq25 addresses http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nestedOptionals
15:37:57 [ericP]
AndyS: I think it does
15:38:09 [ericP]
APPROVED
15:38:23 [ericP]
ACTION: LeeF to close nested optionals issue
15:38:36 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef bnodeRef
15:39:00 [ericP]
LeeF: I believe that the current draft addresses this
15:39:05 [ericP]
patH: yes
15:39:17 [LeeF]
PROPOSED that the current treatment of bnode labels in rq25 addresses http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef
15:39:29 [AndyS]
And we aren't proposing the first part (exposing the labels in results)
15:39:31 [ericP]
APPROVED
15:39:45 [ericP]
ACTION: LeeF to close bnodeRef issue
15:40:13 [ericP]
ACTION: PatH to investigate closing the entailment issue
15:40:16 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#openWorldValueTesting open world issues
15:41:10 [AndyS]
Example: "xyz"@en > "abc"@en
15:41:35 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#operatorExtensibility 11.3.1 Operator Extensibility
15:42:07 [LeeF]
"""
15:42:07 [LeeF]
Extended SPARQL implementations may support additional associations between operators and operator functions; this amounts to adding rows to the table above.
15:42:07 [LeeF]
"""
15:42:30 [AndyS]
Example: "xyz"@en = "abc"@EN
15:42:36 [AndyS]
Example: "abc"@en = "abc"@EN
15:43:35 [Zakim]
-Souri_Das
15:43:39 [SimonR]
(Say, weren't language tags case-sensitive...?)
15:43:58 [ericP]
"abc"@en = "abc"@EN
15:43:59 [LeeF]
I think RDF C&AS says they are case insensitive
15:44:26 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#func-RDFterm-equal 11.4.10 RDFterm-equal
15:44:36 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#func-RDFterm-equal
15:45:44 [LeeF]
"Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase."
15:46:04 [LeeF]
"Note: The case normalization of language tags is part of the description of the abstract syntax, and consequently the abstract behaviour of RDF applications. It does not constrain an RDF implementation to actually normalize the case. Crucially, the result of comparing two language tags should not be sensitive to the case of the original input."
15:46:31 [LeeF]
from -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Literal-Equality RDF C&AS
15:46:38 [ericP]
{ "abc"@en = "abc"@EN } => { "abc"@en = "abc"@en }
15:49:04 [LeeF]
"""
15:49:05 [LeeF]
11.3.1 Operator Extensibility
15:49:05 [LeeF]
15:49:05 [LeeF]
Extended SPARQL implementations may support additional associations between operators and operator functions; this amounts to adding rows to the table above. No additional operator support may yield a result that replaces any result other than a type error in an unextended implementation. The consequence of this rule is that extended SPARQL implementations will produce at least the same solutions as an unextended implementation, and may, for some queries, produce more
15:49:07 [LeeF]
"""
15:49:28 [ericP]
[[
15:49:29 [ericP]
SPARQL language extensions may provide additional associations between operators and operator functions; this amounts to adding rows to the table above. No additional operator may yield a result that replaces any result other than a type error in the above table. The consequence of this rule is that SPARQL extensions will produce at least the same solutions as an unextended implementation, and may, for some queries, produce more solutions.
15:49:36 [ericP]
]]
15:50:01 [ericP]
""No additional operator may yield a result that replaces any result other than a type error in the above table.""
15:51:51 [LeeF]
PROPOSED that the text in 11.3.1 Operator Extensibility in rq25 addresses http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#openWorldValueTesting
15:51:59 [ericP]
+1
15:52:23 [ericP]
APPROVED: AndyS and patH abstaining
15:52:41 [ericP]
ACTION: LeeF to close openWorldValueTesting issue
15:53:42 [ericP]
LeeF: anyone intending to submit further reviews?
15:54:00 [ericP]
patH: insofar as my action entails a review of section 12, yes
15:55:50 [Zakim]
-PatH
15:55:52 [Zakim]
-Orri_Erling
15:55:53 [Zakim]
-jeen
15:55:58 [Zakim]
-SimonR
16:04:02 [Zakim]
-[IBMCambridge]
16:04:10 [Zakim]
-SteveH
16:05:01 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, stop