13:49:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:49:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc
13:49:37 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
13:49:46 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0013.html
13:50:36 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes Previous 2007-02-12
13:50:42 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
13:54:14 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #rdfa
13:54:49 <mhausenblas> zakim, who is on the call?
13:54:49 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has not yet started, mhausenblas
13:54:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven_, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, mhausenblas, Simone
13:59:17 <wing> wing has joined #rdfa
13:59:22 <Steven_> , XForms Working Group, W3C
13:59:48 <Steven_> sorry, ignore that
14:00:01 <Steven_> s/, XForms Working Group, W3C//
14:00:05 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started
14:00:12 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:00:29 <Zakim> +??P5
14:00:43 <RalphS> zakim, ??p5 is Michael
14:00:43 <Zakim> +Michael; got it
14:00:46 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
14:00:56 <RalphS> zakim, ibm is Wing
14:00:56 <Zakim> sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm'
14:01:02 <RalphS> zakim, ibmcambridge is Wing
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Wing; got it
14:01:13 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:14 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
14:01:17 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:37 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
14:01:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:51 <Simone> Zakim, Ipcaller is Simone
14:01:54 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
14:02:08 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:03:13 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
14:03:35 <RalphS> zakim, pick a victim
14:03:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Michael
14:03:47 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph
14:04:01 <Zakim> +EliasT
14:04:15 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #rdfa
14:04:25 <EliasT> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Michael, Wing, Steven, Simone, Ben_Adida, EliasT
14:05:26 <benadida> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0013.html
14:05:29 <RalphS> Simone: my name is pronounced (as Ralph hears it) "see moan eh"
14:06:13 <RalphS> Topic: Action Items
14:06:26 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #rdfa
14:06:51 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
14:07:01 <RalphS> Michael: I agreed to support that action for Ben
14:07:01 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/#sec4 RiR
14:07:35 <Zakim> +??P15
14:07:38 <RalphS> Michael: RiR is meant to be a list of features supported by RDFa
14:07:39 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:07:39 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:07:55 <RalphS> ... e.g. containers probably are 'in', reification is probably 'out'
14:08:20 <RalphS> ... I can add more detail to the list and I may have missed some features
14:08:52 <RalphS> Ben: TimBL might add some examples of N3 that cannot be expressed in RDFa
14:09:08 <RalphS> ... what are the 'levels' meant to indicate?
14:09:18 <RalphS> Michael: links point to QA document
14:09:29 <RalphS> ... allows for incremental enhancement of a spec
14:09:58 <RalphS> Ben: I worry this idea of 'levels' might imply more complication than there really is
14:10:39 <RalphS> Michael: we should decide whether to say 'this is all we support and no more' or indicate possible future features
14:10:52 <RalphS> -- continues
14:11:31 <RalphS> Ralph: is it still useful to have a Wiki page so the community can edit?
14:11:39 <RalphS> Ben: I think so
14:11:56 <RalphS> Michael: I can prepare a discussion of this in the Wiki
14:12:13 <RalphS> ... don't want to duplicate work
14:12:20 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
14:12:56 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0130.html action progress: test suite hosting [Ralph 2007-02-26]
14:13:04 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
14:13:06 <RalphS> -- continues
14:15:22 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
14:15:24 <RalphS> -- continues
14:15:52 <RalphS> [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
14:16:04 <RalphS> Ben: I thought about it so long that I missed the deadline
14:16:37 <RalphS> ... I might talk during the W3C track
14:16:41 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
14:16:43 <RalphS> -- continues
14:17:11 <RalphS> Ben: making some progress; Use Case document updated to include a little bit of Science Commons example
14:17:22 <RalphS> ... still hope for a big realistic example to include
14:17:28 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
14:17:32 <RalphS> -- continues
14:17:35 <RalphS> Ben: I'd like feedback on this
14:17:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]
14:18:16 <RalphS> Elias: I also am looking for a use case that adds more specifics
14:18:32 <RalphS> ... deciding whether to go to WWW2007 or XTech; I submitted an RDFa/GRDDL talk
14:19:52 <RalphS> Ben: a Use Case can be more abstract; can show "here's the triples we'd like to produce"
14:19:56 <RalphS> -- continues
14:20:15 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action13]
14:20:17 <RalphS> -- continues
14:21:01 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]
14:21:04 <RalphS> -- continues
14:21:53 <mhausenblas> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#FAQ RDFa FAQ
14:22:47 <RalphS> Ben: Simone, comments on the FAQ from your new fresh eyes would be especially useful
14:23:06 <RalphS> Topic: Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
14:23:20 <RalphS> Ben: I commited new updates to Primer and Scenarios on Friday
14:23:29 <RalphS> ... mostly editorial, related to comments received
14:23:30 <Zakim> -EliasT
14:23:59 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0004.html Update to RDFa Scenarios, including response to Comments [Ben 2007-03-02]
14:24:07 <Zakim> +EliasT
14:24:18 <RalphS> Ben: one comment remaining on clarifying the predicates should be cleaned up
14:24:34 <RalphS> ... the document currently assumes namespaced classes
14:24:51 <RalphS> ... are we comfortable enough with this to publish these WDs as they are?
14:25:13 <RalphS> Ralph: "publish, publish, publish"  It's not going to be perfect
14:26:13 <RalphS> Steven: don't say I didn't warn you
14:27:13 <Zakim> -EliasT
14:27:18 <RalphS> Ralph: WAI-ARIA is emphasizing use of @role, so I certainly don't think this discussion is over
14:27:23 <RalphS> ... but let's publish and get comments
14:27:34 <EliasT> EliasT: I'm +1 to publishing. (dialing back in)
14:27:42 <RalphS> PROPOSE: publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs
14:27:43 <mhausenblas> +1
14:27:45 <wing> +1
14:27:47 <RalphS> +1
14:27:47 <Simone> +1
14:27:59 <Zakim> +EliasT
14:28:07 <RalphS> Steven: warning, re: use of @class
14:28:24 <RalphS> RESOLVED Ask WG to publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs
14:29:03 <RalphS> Ben: I would like to respond to Antiones comment about multiple @rel and @property before publishing; I think it is one sentence
14:29:13 <RalphS> s/Antoines/Antoine's/
14:29:46 <RalphS> Topic: Test Suite Update
14:29:58 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ RDFa Test Suite
14:30:08 <RalphS> Ben: we're not providing enough feedback on the test suite
14:30:09 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html
14:30:20 <RalphS> Michael: DanC has given us lots of test suite feedback
14:30:37 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:30:50 <RalphS> ... I'd like us to settle whether we're going to try to do conformance testing or not
14:30:51 <MarkB_> back in a sec
14:31:29 <RalphS> ... I would like just to claim that "any tool that claims to be RDFa-compliant has to correctly parse all the test cases"
14:31:45 <RalphS> ... i.e. test suite is necessary but may not be sufficient
14:31:57 <RalphS> s/test/passing test/
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... DanC was commenting about what conformance testing could or should be
14:32:32 <RalphS> ... he felt that we could not do conformance testing
14:32:53 <RalphS> ... I hope to prove that something is conforming but not to try to prove non-conformance
14:33:24 <RalphS> ... many specifications already provide conformance tests, though perhaps not as strong as what I envision
14:33:41 <Zakim> +??P16
14:33:43 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:33:44 <RalphS> Elias: is the problem just because of the word "conformance"?  If so, let's drop that word
14:33:44 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:34:01 <RalphS> Michael: look at -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html my response to Dan
14:34:41 <RalphS> ... an agent that claims to be RDFa-aware must pass the test suite, but passing the test suite does not guarantee the agent is conforming
14:34:52 <RalphS> Ben: what is the GRDDL test suite called?
14:35:32 <RalphS> Elias: W3C does not bless implementations, so we're not required to do conformance tests
14:35:40 <RalphS> ... all we need to do is provide guidance to developers
14:35:59 <RalphS> Steven: the real reason for a test suite is to test the _specification_
14:36:56 <benadida> RalphS: I agree with Steven. DanC has used the test suite to determine how the WG has responded to a question.
14:37:05 <benadida> ... if a question is raised, one should develop a test to show how to answer it
14:37:28 <benadida> ... Dan has encouraged us to write a test case in response to any technical discussion.
14:38:04 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2007Mar/0004.html Conformance testing discussion on QA
14:38:29 <RalphS> Ben: so this seems to be about the usage of the term "conformance"
14:38:57 <Zakim> -EliasT
14:39:00 <RalphS> ... I recommend continuing to build the input/output tests but drop the word "conformance"
14:39:54 <Zakim> +EliasT
14:40:48 <RalphS> Michael: an agent can always trick the test suite by producing exactly what it requires yet not be a true implementation
14:41:12 <RalphS> Ben: so the test suite is to help developers, help test the specification, but *not* to test implementations
14:41:25 <RalphS> Elias: the SPARQL test suite gives a set of files and the expected output
14:41:43 <RalphS> ... every SPARQL developer downloads the test suite and runs it themselves, then they can debate the test suite
14:42:10 <MarkB_> q+
14:42:55 <RalphS> ... the SPARQL test suite does not invoke any code; it's just the input and expected output
14:42:56 <mhausenblas> q+ on Test Runner
14:43:18 <mhausenblas> q+ to demo Test Runner
14:43:27 <RalphS> Mark: I agree that input and expected output is what Michael was doing but I don't think that is all we should do
14:43:46 <RalphS> ... I'd like to provide an interface for people to test their endpoints
14:44:08 <RalphS> ... concerned about only REST-based endpoint, as we haven't specified a REST requirement
14:44:27 <RalphS> ... we shoudl stop at just describing inputs and outputs
14:44:34 <RalphS> s/shoudl/should/
14:45:01 <RalphS> ... the other side of what Dan is getting at is 'anytime we mention RDFa in a document we should add to the test suite'
14:45:25 <RalphS> ... the moment we create a sample or a line of text in a paragraph, reflect this in the test suite with an input and output document
14:45:46 <RalphS> Ben: are you suggesting we drop the REST test harness?
14:46:05 <RalphS> Mark: no, it's useful but don't make it mandatory
14:46:18 <RalphS> ... the REST harness should not be "the test suite" itself
14:46:26 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test-manifest.rdf
14:46:38 <RalphS> Michael: agree.  First we should look at the manifest file
14:46:49 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/
14:46:59 <RalphS> ... rdfa-test-manifest is the source; everything else is generated by Wing's script
14:47:09 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html
14:47:11 <wing> test case results are still TTL
14:47:38 <RalphS> ... test runner is supplemental; it just helps test REST-based endpoints, but I'm happy to move the test runner elsewhere
14:47:49 <RalphS> ... the mandatory part is just the manifest and the test case directory
14:48:10 <RalphS> ... we've taken Mark's suggestion to add a SPARQL query to test that the expected triples are present
14:49:06 <RalphS> ... the test asssertions are generated from the manifest
14:49:29 <RalphS> Elias: what property is available in the manifest to cite, e.g. the irc log where we discuss a test?
14:49:35 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests
14:50:06 <RalphS> Michael: see 'status'
14:50:19 <RalphS> Elias: I'm looking for a property that describes why the test was written
14:50:26 <mhausenblas> pls choose one from http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html
14:50:30 <RalphS> Wing: we can use seeAlso
14:51:04 <RalphS> Elias: also record when we accepted or rejected a test
14:51:42 <RalphS> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test
14:51:52 <EliasT> Zakim, mute me
14:51:52 <Zakim> EliasT should now be muted
14:52:07 <RalphS> Mark: sounds like we're moving closer to a W3C test ontology
14:52:15 <RalphS> Wing: yep, we've been following that
14:52:24 <RalphS> Ben: are we outputting RDFa on the test suite page? :)
14:52:32 <RalphS> Michael: we've thought about that but aren't doing it yet
14:53:04 <RalphS> Topic: XHTML 1.1 Module Update
14:53:14 <RalphS> Mark: there's a document describing the modularization
14:53:24 <RalphS> ... I've given comments to Shane
14:53:33 <RalphS> ... sadly, Shane is ill right now
14:53:48 <RalphS> ... he had agreed to write the schemas
14:54:21 <RalphS> ... the RDFa schemas I wrote don't (yet) drop in smoothly
14:54:54 <RalphS> ... I will work on this myself in Shane's absence
14:55:29 <RalphS> ... I won't be able to pick this up again until next week
14:55:56 <RalphS> ... I'll do the schemas and then we can review
14:56:14 <RalphS> Ben: would March 19 be a reasonable date to expect to see update schemas?
14:56:34 <RalphS> Mark: I have had schemas on my server but they're old
14:56:48 <RalphS> Ben: we should have some versions published in the W3C process to get feedback
14:56:58 <RalphS> ... I don't want this to be a rushed, last-minute thing
14:57:17 <RalphS> Mark: the work on XHTML modularization has been underway for a long time
14:58:30 <RalphS> Ben: people will be looking at every little detail when we go to REC
14:58:50 <RalphS> Mark: the draft is the primary thing; Shane has aligned this with the latest XHTML Modularization spec
14:59:03 <RalphS> ... we won't gain by getting people to look at year-old schemas
14:59:24 <RalphS> ... point people to Shane's draft now
14:59:41 <RalphS> Ben: so let's hope to have schemas updated by March 19
14:59:47 <Steven_> Time
15:00:22 <RalphS> Mark: I'll have the schemas done by March 12
15:00:32 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action14]
15:00:34 <RalphS> -- continues
15:00:39 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
15:00:46 <RalphS> scribenick: benadida
15:00:48 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:01:30 <mhausenblas> Topic: 5. Setting a Schedule
15:01:34 <mhausenblas> next week
15:01:42 <Zakim> -EliasT
15:02:40 <Zakim> -Steven
15:03:05 <benadida> Mark's mashup demo
15:03:18 <benadida> MarkB: asked to demonstrate SideWinder
15:03:43 <benadida> ... framework to put together application "widgets"
15:03:50 <benadida> ... how do you get RDF? While you're browsing, etc...
15:04:10 <benadida> ... sidebar in IE and, while you're browsing, looks for RDFa in main window
15:04:36 <benadida> ... converts it, stores it, and different running sidewinder applications can run queries
15:04:59 <benadida> ... to pull data out. Example: google map that periodically maps events browsed.
15:05:19 <benadida> ... browsing process adds triples as you go, don't pay any attention.
15:05:26 <benadida> ... separate process renders items found.
15:05:42 <benadida> ... next stage is to combine that with previous data.
15:05:49 <benadida> ... parser also does microformat processing.
15:06:27 <benadida> ... main thing we're trying to do is to build stuff into the browser.
15:07:12 <benadida> ... no demo just yet, but working on it soon.
15:09:25 <Zakim> -Wing
15:09:26 <Zakim> -Simone
15:09:27 <Zakim> -Michael
15:09:27 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:09:30 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:09:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended
15:09:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Michael, Wing, Steven, Simone, Ben_Adida, EliasT, MarkB_
15:09:41 <benadida> zakim, please draft minutes
15:09:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please draft minutes', benadida
15:10:32 <wing> wing has left #rdfa
15:10:42 <Simone> Simone has left #rdfa
15:11:18 <benadida> ADJOURNED
15:27:26 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:29:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:33:54 <Steven> s/Scribe: Ralph/Scribe: RalphS/
15:33:59 <Steven> rrsagnet, make minutes
15:34:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:35:04 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
15:37:35 <Steven> s/Antiones/Antoine's/
15:37:45 <Steven> s/04 01rrsagnet, make minutes//
15:37:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:37:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:39:00 <EliasT> EliasT has left #rdfa
17:16:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:17:10 <Steven> rrsagent, bye
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [1]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-06-51
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [2]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-13-04
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [3]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-15-22
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [4]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-16-41
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [5]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-17-28
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] [6]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-17-48
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action13] [7]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-20-15
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action15] [8]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-21-01
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [9]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T14-51-42
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action14] [10]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T15-00-32
17:17:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [11]
17:17:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc#T15-00-39