IRC log of eo on 2007-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:27:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
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logging to
13:27:28 [shawn]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:27:28 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:28:03 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
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13:32:09 [Zakim]
13:32:30 [shadi]
meeting: EOWG
13:32:35 [shadi]
scribe: Shadi
13:32:39 [shadi]
chair: Shawn
13:32:47 [Harvey]
Harvey has joined #eo
13:32:56 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
13:32:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see doyle, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Shadi, Bingham, Jack, Andrew_Arch, Judy, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac
13:32:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, Andrew, Wayne, shadi, shawn
13:33:15 [Zakim]
13:33:20 [shadi]
13:33:42 [hbj]
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13:34:15 [judy]
judy has joined #eo
13:34:29 [shadi]
Topic: Role Call
13:34:47 [shadi]
[participants say "hi"]
13:35:02 [Sylvie]
Sylvie has joined #eo
13:35:09 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:35:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see doyle, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Shadi, Bingham, Jack, Andrew_Arch, Judy, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac, Helle_Bjarno, Loughborough
13:35:34 [shadi]
Topic: Web Accessibility Standards Harmonization Updates
13:35:50 [Jack]
Jack has joined #eo
13:36:11 [shadi]
slh: checking-in on various developments, looking forward to exchanging knowledge
13:36:15 [Jack]
Greetings everyone!
13:37:30 [shadi]
aa: in Australia coming close to establishing a committee, was hard to organize
13:37:48 [shadi]
...aim is to formally participate in activities like JTC-1 etc
13:38:09 [shadi]
...and to be able to adopt national and international standards
13:39:00 [shawn]
agenda+ US Telecommunications and Electronic and Information Technology Advisory Committee (TEITAC) (updating Section 508 and Section 255)
13:39:00 [shawn]
agenda+ ISO/IEC JTC-1 Special Working Group on Accessibility (SWG-A)
13:39:00 [shawn]
agenda+ Japanese Standards Association (JSA)
13:39:00 [shawn]
agenda+ Europe: EC Mandate on IT Accessibility, CEN Workshops, Unified Web Evaluation Methodology (UWEM) version 1.0 and future
13:39:01 [shawn]
agenda+ United Nations Global Accessibility Initiative on Technology
13:39:03 [shawn]
agenda+ Helle update
13:39:05 [shawn]
agenda+ Other
13:40:44 [shadi]
jb: had various discussions on many of these issues during the past
13:41:02 [shadi]
...bringing pieces together to coordinate some of the developments
13:41:14 [shawn]
agenda+ Tim Berners-Lee testimony at US House of Representatives
13:41:27 [shadi]
...may feed into the policy developments and/or stds harmonization pages
13:42:09 [shawn]
Why Standards Harmonization is Essential to Web Accessibility (reply to Helle -- although hopefully it is fairly easy to find on the WAi web site ! ;)
13:42:15 [shadi]
...intention is to promote stds harmonization and give and update to people
13:42:57 [Zakim]
13:43:16 [shadi]
jb: encourage people to send comments and questions to the list
13:43:29 [shadi] try and address these during future calls
13:44:01 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
13:44:01 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "US Telecommunications and Electronic and Information Technology Advisory Committee (TEITAC) (updating Section 508 and Section 255)" taken up [from
13:44:05 [Zakim]
... shawn]
13:44:38 [shadi]
jb: TEITAC was convened by US Access Board in September 2006
13:44:51 [shadi]
...a follow on effort from a Federal Advisory Committee
13:45:43 [shadi] refresh the technical standard for Section 508
13:46:13 [shadi] update the technology requirements and to harmonize with international standards
13:46:32 [shadi]
...W3C applied and was nominated as one of the groups to be represented at TEITAC
13:47:14 [shadi]
...participation also from different entities including disability organization, industries, and international participation
13:47:34 [shadi]
...particularly from EU, Australia, Japan
13:47:44 [Andrew]
JB: membership of TEITAC -
13:47:46 [shadi]
...and Candada
13:48:47 [shadi]
jb: TEITAC is advisory, not a legislative body
13:49:01 [shadi]
...anticipated to go to November 2007
13:49:14 [shadi]
...could take longer but people want it wrapped up soon
13:50:02 [shadi]
jb: TEITAC is actually updating two parts -Section 255 Telecomunication, and Section 508
13:50:19 [shadi]
..trying to update them together to align them
13:50:43 [shadi]
...many different sub-committies, including Web & Software
13:51:03 [shadi] in the agenda gives good background
13:51:20 [shadi]
jb: hope to be able to reference WCAG 2.0
13:51:48 [Andrew]
JB: TEITAC subcommittees -
13:51:55 [shadi]
...also discussions on UAAG and ATAG but not as optimistic to have a direct referencing
13:53:34 [shadi]
hb: is there acceptance for 508 amongst developers? often there was little interest in implementing 508 by developers
13:54:04 [shadi]
jb: developers *in* TEITAC are pretty supportive organizations
13:54:42 [shadi]
...Section 508 is more of an incentive approach
13:55:05 [shadi]
...if you implement accessibility, then the government more likely to buy your products
13:56:07 [shadi]
wl: often the initial impact of directives and legislation is hight but then slows down
13:56:33 [shadi]
...sometimes little knowledge to implement accessibility
13:57:22 [shadi]
...however, the current amount of laws and legislations in different countries such as the US or the EU is very promising
13:58:23 [shadi]
...momentum is well under way, light at the end of the tunnel, can't stop it anymore
13:59:17 [shadi]
jb: Section 508 had a huge ripple-effect in many countries and raised awareness
14:00:02 [shadi] work in WAI and else where got real lift through media coverage
14:00:31 [shadi]
...optimistic about the progress
14:01:15 [shadi]
wd: in CA where they tied their law to 508, it had significant impact
14:01:49 [shadi]
jb: interested in experience with VPATs, hearing different things
14:02:20 [shadi]
wd: got to test the product anyway, VPAT can lie
14:02:38 [shadi]
...but availability of a VPAT is important, tells you something about the product
14:03:45 [Andrew]
AA: question about the accuracy, and hence value, of VPATs - my experience a few years ago was that they were very exagerated and/or had big gaps
14:04:16 [shadi]
jb: are people interested in resources being sent to the list?
14:04:36 [shadi]
wd: TEITAC site is pretty good, got lost on the Japanese one
14:04:40 [Andrew]
JB: web and software subcommittee WIKI -
14:05:12 [Andrew]
JB: general interface -
14:06:11 [shawn]
q+ to ask about public involvement w/ link
14:06:22 [Andrew]
JB: audio - video subcommittee:
14:06:27 [shadi]
jb: what is the interaction between the sub-committees and the central one? how do they work together?
14:06:58 [shadi]
s/jb: what is the interaction/jw: what is the interaction
14:07:51 [shadi]
jb: sub-committess explore specific areas using their own teleconferences and face-to-face meetings
14:07:59 [hbj]
q+ to ask about effect/influence on work in EU?
14:08:26 [shadi]
...for example to focus on cognitive disabilities or such
14:08:57 [shadi]
...each sub-committee delivers reports of their specific areas
14:09:21 [shadi]
...these are collated in the main committee with consensus building
14:09:38 [shawn]
ack hbj
14:09:38 [Zakim]
hbj, you wanted to ask about effect/influence on work in EU?
14:09:41 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
14:09:41 [Zakim]
Shadi should no longer be muted
14:10:20 [Andrew]
SAZ: where is the report to be sent?
14:10:36 [shadi]
jb: report that includes the recommendations from TEITAC then goes to the US access board
14:10:57 [shadi]
...then is processed there and comes back as a draft for public review
14:11:03 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:11:03 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:12:13 [shadi]
hbj: how will this work that comes out of TEITAC influence the work in Europe?
14:13:11 [shadi]
q+ to clarify difference between EU & EC
14:13:35 [shadi]
jb: they will follow closely and maybe adopt interesting concepts
14:13:45 [shawn]
ack shadi
14:13:46 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to clarify difference between EU & EC
14:13:50 [shadi]
...the process is so complex and sophisticated
14:14:32 [judy]
s/any maybe adopt interesting concepts/any maybe adopt interesting concepts to the extent that they like what they see, or not
14:14:41 [judy]
14:15:00 [Andrew]
saz: EC is sitting on TEITAC, but EU has member states that are independent
14:15:20 [Andrew]
... very complex and unpredictable
14:15:25 [Wayne]
14:15:37 [shawn]
ack wayne
14:15:47 [Zakim]
14:16:29 [shadi]
wd: is TEITAC taking the same approach to emerging technologies?
14:17:16 [Andrew]
JB: some international participants are particularly interested in how TEITAC addresses the needs of people withcognitive disabilities - see
14:18:40 [Andrew]
s/withcognitive/with cognitive/
14:18:40 [shawn]
ack me
14:18:40 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to ask about public involvement w/ link
14:18:50 [Zakim]
14:19:27 [shadi]
slh: someone asked me, they joined a sub-committe but don't know where and how to comment
14:20:13 [shadi]
jb: can do a lot automatically...register, and subscribe to the mailing list
14:20:27 [shadi]
...much of the discussion takes place on the mailing list
14:20:31 [judy]
...and attend teleconferences
14:20:36 [shadi]
...teleconferences are used additionally to
14:20:59 [Andrew]
JB: initially join a mailing list (eg then participate in the discussion
14:21:02 [shadi]
wl: how are wikis used?
14:21:25 [shadi]
jb: mainly for meeting logistics but also for discussion specific themes
14:21:46 [shadi]
...also report to the full committee may take place in the wiki
14:22:23 [shadi]
wl: no wikipedia entry for TEITAC
14:22:40 [shadi]
jb: thought there was, may be under section 508, please suggest
14:23:40 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:23:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ISO/IEC JTC-1 Special Working Group on Accessibility (SWG-A)" taken up [from shawn]
14:24:38 [shadi]
jb: ISO/IEC international designated standards body
14:25:11 [shadi]
...JTC is a joint committee between these two bodies
14:25:28 [shadi]
...SWG is a wokring group within that, to focus on accessibility
14:25:53 [shadi]
...aim is to address harmonization of standards internationally
14:26:09 [shadi]
...process is fairly formal under JTC-1 procedures
14:26:42 [shadi]
...possibilites for participation of disability organizations, by teleconference etc
14:27:11 [shadi]
jb: work by creating a matrix of requirements and technologies
14:27:36 [Harvey]
Harvey has joined #eo
14:27:49 [shadi]
...there has been some effort to provide this information as a library of technologies for governments
14:29:11 [shadi]
jb: JTC is not recommending any specific guidelines or technologies, they only provide information about them
14:29:15 [Andrew]
JB: one outcome is "Accessibility Standards Inventory Version 2.0" available from
14:29:18 [Wayne]
14:29:29 [hbj]
14:29:40 [shadi]
wl: is accessibility considered?
14:30:29 [shadi]
jb: some are, for example JSA submitted an accessibility standard for writing accessibility standards
14:31:13 [shadi]
...still pursuing normative references to WCAG
14:31:34 [shawn]
ack wayne
14:31:41 [shadi]
...can see change in awareness of people's interest and awareness
14:32:10 [shadi]
jw: what is the relationship of accessibility and usability<
14:32:41 [shadi]
jb: can't generalize, in general there seems to be a raise of awareness to both of these
14:33:01 [shadi]
slh: how's the discussion on that going in TEITAC?
14:33:52 [shadi]
jb: some interest in usability from the participants
14:34:10 [shadi]
...not really affecting the provisions but the presentation of them
14:34:29 [shadi]
wd: JTC?
14:34:38 [Andrew]
AA: Andrew understands TEITAC is linking with ISO 9241-20 (Accessibility guidelines for ICT equipment & services)
14:34:41 [shadi]
jb: (J)oint (T)echnical (C)ommittee
14:34:49 [shawn]
ack hbj
14:35:41 [shadi]
hbj: sat in during the last meeting Brussels...spent two days listening to acronyms and numbers
14:35:56 [shadi]
...apart from that its interesting and a good idea
14:36:04 [shadi]
...hope good things will come out from it
14:36:15 [shadi]
...for instance work on the biometrics
14:37:30 [Andrew]
AA: additional deliverable is "User Needs Summary Version 1.0" also available from
14:38:05 [shadi]
hbj: trying to get the ministries to be aware and interested in JTC-1 work
14:38:28 [shadi]
...not to participate but to turn to when looking for standards
14:38:48 [shawn]
q+ to ask for pointer to user needs matrix/description
14:39:06 [shawn]
14:39:09 [Andrew]
AA: Andrew notes that JTC1 has established SWG-A Ad Hoc 12 (JTC 1 Web Site Accessibility) and is calling for Additional Participants
14:39:56 [Andrew]
q+ to coment on the poor accessibility of much of the JTC1 site
14:40:37 [Wayne]
Interesting reference --
14:40:59 [shawn]
ack andrew
14:40:59 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to coment on the poor accessibility of much of the JTC1 site
14:42:06 [shadi]
aa: JTC-1 established an ad-hoc 12 on Web site accessibility, and are calling for partcipation
14:43:05 [shadi]
...also the site is very poor with regards to accessibility
14:43:36 [shadi]
saz: this has been raised many times, its on the to-do but nothing much has happened lately
14:43:47 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:43:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Japanese Standards Association (JSA)" taken up [from shawn]
14:45:30 [shadi]
jb: initially was an attempt to merge WCAG 1.0 and Section 508
14:45:55 [shadi]
...resulted in participation of JSA in WCAG WG
14:46:16 [shadi]
...working together to find common grounds
14:46:53 [shadi] the hope of harmonizing the two specs
14:47:41 [shadi]
hbj: seems also that the Japanese are very active in JTC-1
14:48:07 [shadi]
jb: yes, very committed to harmonize work internationally
14:48:24 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:48:25 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Europe: EC Mandate on IT Accessibility, CEN Workshops, Unified Web Evaluation Methodology (UWEM) version 1.0 and future" taken up [from
14:48:27 [Zakim]
... shawn]
14:49:39 [Andrew]
saz: to summarise:
14:50:20 [Andrew]
... UWEM is based on WCAG 1.0 and prepared by three Eurpoean groups
14:50:43 [Andrew]
... a new version should appear in mid-year to reflect WCAG 2.0
14:51:13 [Andrew]
... part of WAB-Cluster work spun of a CEN Workshop on Certification
14:51:49 [Andrew]
... WAI commented and reported back to EO in mid 2006
14:52:09 [Andrew]
... CEN workshops just produce papers and recommendation - not standards
14:52:36 [Andrew]
... another CEN Workshop is on Documention and Print Accessibility
14:52:53 [Andrew]
... relationship to DAISY and similar standards
14:53:25 [Andrew]
... also the EU Manadate to implement stanadards relating to accesisbility
14:53:45 [Andrew]
... will be an overlap with WCAG/UAAG/ATAG
14:55:01 [judy]
14:55:17 [shawn]
ack j
14:55:35 [shadi]
wl: are people aware of ATAG?
14:55:38 [Andrew]
WL: what about the role of tools?
14:56:09 [shadi]
saz: yes, but need to continue to raise awareness and the relationship between the guidelines
14:56:36 [Andrew]
JB: ATAG doesn't seem to get traction within the discussions
14:57:11 [Andrew]
... because, no matter the obvious rationalle, it doesn't seem to connect
14:57:26 [Andrew]
... or they are preoccupieed with other issues
14:58:31 [hbj]
14:58:42 [shawn]
ack hbj
14:59:01 [Wayne]
14:59:13 [shadi]
14:59:19 [Andrew]
HBJ: went to a user group meeting for a CMS - they were talking about accessibility
15:00:24 [Andrew]
... talking to the developers, they concentrate on WCAG and output, not so much on the authoring end
15:00:27 [shadi]
15:00:28 [shawn]
ack w
15:01:12 [Andrew]
WD: how is this going to get into law?
15:01:26 [Andrew]
SAZ: EC is working on several fronts
15:01:37 [Zakim]
15:01:46 [Andrew]
... harmonised technical standards
15:02:25 [Zakim]
15:02:42 [shawn]
... harmonise how evaluation handled among member states
15:03:18 [shawn]
... if implemented at EC level, will filter down
15:03:34 [Andrew]
HBJ: is Wayne asking about member state laws?
15:04:08 [Andrew]
WD: yes - in US, just one law (S508), but in Europe, many member states
15:04:19 [judy]
15:04:29 [Andrew]
HBJ: in Denmark, mauch of this would not become law
15:04:51 [Andrew]
... often just policy & regulations
15:05:04 [shadi]
q+ to be a bit more positive
15:05:17 [Andrew]
... and often customised/interpreted
15:05:49 [Andrew]
... due to differences in culture
15:06:07 [Andrew]
... north/south & east/west differences
15:06:25 [shawn]
ack j
15:07:41 [Andrew]
JB: good to be reminded of the very diverse cultural and legislative differences across Europe
15:08:23 [Andrew]
... and that EC can only recommend, not enforce
15:09:07 [shawn]
ack s
15:09:09 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to be a bit more positive
15:09:37 [Andrew]
... also, economic differences; how much accessibility various countries think they can afford
15:10:32 [Andrew]
SAZ: despite all these complexities, it is working and a lot of things are happening as a result of EC pushes
15:11:59 [Andrew]
WD: in Denmark, you just have guidelines - if you follow, then you are "good"
15:12:22 [Andrew]
... do Corporations take any notice?
15:12:44 [Andrew]
HBJ: they would like to be better, but impact is low
15:12:54 [Andrew]
... slow progress
15:13:28 [Andrew]
SAZ: industry often doesn't take note of guidleines
15:13:35 [Andrew]
... but governments do
15:13:50 [Andrew]
... and often watch their neighbours
15:14:20 [Andrew]
SLH: often works better in Europe than it would in the US
15:14:56 [Andrew]
HBJ: in Denamrk, legislation would probably not have made any difference
15:15:44 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:15:44 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "United Nations Global Accessibility Initiative on Technology" taken up [from shawn]
15:16:07 [shadi]
15:18:58 [shadi]
jb: Henny was asking if this is the same as the G2ICT
15:19:09 [shadi]
15:19:43 [shadi]
...first step towards ratification
15:19:54 [hbj]
+q ask about meetings before we quit
15:20:10 [shadi]
...kicked-off activity to drive implementation
15:20:49 [Zakim]
15:20:49 [shadi]
...has a combination of government and non-government participation
15:21:10 [shawn]
q+ to ask for links
15:21:14 [shadi]
...question is how to try making information technologies accessible
15:21:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.509.773.aaaa
15:21:44 [shadi]
...most of te focus is on implementation, but also an eye on standards
15:21:50 [Andrew]
q+ to ask for references - is it related to
15:21:59 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is really William
15:22:00 [Zakim]
+William; got it
15:22:12 [shawn]
ack me
15:22:12 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to ask for links
15:22:29 [hbj]
q+ to ask about meetings before we quit
15:22:40 [shadi]
slh: had a hard time finding links and information on this
15:23:01 [shadi]
jb: will put link to press release into IRC
15:23:04 [judy]
more info:
15:23:05 [shawn]
ack a
15:23:05 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to ask for references - is it related to
15:24:33 [shadi]
action: JB to dig up UN references and send to the list
15:24:51 [judy]
Link to Tim's presentation in US congressional subcommittee:
15:24:58 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:24:58 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, shadi
15:25:13 [shadi]
q- helle
15:25:14 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:25:14 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, shadi
15:25:21 [shadi]
q- hbj
15:25:23 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:25:24 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Helle update" taken up [from shawn]
15:26:11 [shawn]
zakim, drop agenda item 7
15:26:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drop agenda item 7', shawn
15:26:15 [shadi]
hbj: having first meeting in march
15:26:18 [shawn]
zakim, drop agenda 7
15:26:18 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Other, dropped
15:26:27 [shadi]
...hope to be driving implementation in DK
15:27:13 [shadi]
...want to use BAD and WCAG 2.0
15:27:52 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:27:52 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Tim Berners-Lee testimony at US House of Representatives" taken up [from shawn]
15:28:13 [Andrew]
one report:
15:28:28 [shadi]
slh: testimony is online, reports, and webcast available
15:29:27 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:29:27 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, shadi
15:29:42 [shadi]
topic: next meeting
15:29:50 [Andrew]
TBL Testimony:
15:30:12 [shadi]
slh: next two meetings are planned, can check mid-week for confirmation
15:30:32 [Zakim]
15:30:32 [shadi]
hbj: when are you planning the next f2f?
15:30:47 [shadi]
jb: no plans currently, see minutes of previous meeting
15:31:12 [shadi]
hbj: wondering if we want to continue these interesting discussion next week
15:31:27 [shadi]
topic: Announcement from Wayne
15:32:31 [Zakim]
15:32:32 [shadi]
saz: on Wednesday morning at CSUN there is a session Higher Education about California State University Accessibility Initiative
15:32:33 [Zakim]
15:32:34 [Zakim]
15:32:36 [Zakim]
15:32:37 [Zakim]
15:32:39 [Zakim]
15:32:39 [Zakim]
15:32:40 [Zakim]
15:32:40 [Zakim]
15:32:45 [Zakim]
15:32:46 [Zakim]
15:32:47 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:32:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were doyle, Shawn, Wayne_Dick, Shadi, Bingham, Jack, Andrew_Arch, Judy, Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac, Helle_Bjarno, Loughborough, Justin, +1.509.773.aaaa, William
15:32:55 [Harvey]
Harvey has left #eo
15:33:14 [Sylvie]
Sylvie has left #eo
15:34:36 [shadi]
zakim, bye
15:34:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo
15:34:46 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:34:52 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
15:34:54 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:34:58 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
15:34:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:34:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JB to dig up UN references and send to the list [1]
15:34:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in