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15:54:33 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:54:33 <Norm> Date: 1 Mar 2007
15:54:33 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/01-agenda.html
15:54:33 <Norm> Meeting number: 57, T-minus 35 weeks
15:54:33 <Norm> Chair: Norm
15:54:34 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
15:54:36 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
15:55:31 <MoZ> Hi Norm, you never use the Agenda function of RRSAgent ?
15:55:37 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
15:55:51 <Norm> I've tried occasionally, but found it inconvenient
15:56:20 <Alessandro> Alessandro has joined #xproc
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15:59:56 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:03 <Zakim> +Norm
16:00:03 <Zakim> +Alex_Milowski
16:00:41 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:00:47 <Zakim> +Alessandro_Vernet
16:00:55 <rlopes> rlopes has joined #xproc
16:01:13 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Milowski, Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet
16:01:32 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
16:01:32 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:01:33 <Zakim> +MSM
16:01:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:49 <MSM> zakim, please mute me
16:01:49 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
16:01:50 <Zakim> MSM should now be muted
16:02:00 <rlopes> Zakim, [ is me
16:02:00 <Zakim> +rlopes; got it
16:02:02 <AndrewF> AndrewF has joined #xproc
16:02:09 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Milowski, Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM (muted), rlopes, Murray_Maloney
16:02:42 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:02:50 <Zakim> +??P52
16:02:53 <AndrewF> zakim, ? is AndrewF
16:02:53 <Zakim> +AndrewF; got it
16:04:46 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:04:47 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:04:49 <Zakim> +Ht
16:05:10 <Norm> Present: Norm, Alex, Paul, Alessandro, Michael, Rui, Murray, Mohamed, Andrew, Henry
16:05:10 <Norm> Regrets: Richard
16:05:37 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:05:37 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/03/01-agenda.html
16:05:42 <Norm> Accepted.
16:05:47 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:05:47 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/02/22-minutes.html
16:05:55 <Norm> Accepted.
16:06:01 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon 8 Mar 2007
16:06:29 <Norm> Mohamed gives regrets
16:06:43 <Norm> Topic: New draft
16:06:56 <Norm> Norm: I published a new draft yesterday.
16:07:07 <Norm> Norm summarizes.
16:07:24 <alexmilowski> If I cut out, my DSL connection is flakey today and all I have is VOIP... 
16:08:08 <Norm> Norm: There's no reasonable diff.
16:08:17 <Zakim> -MSM
16:10:50 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
16:10:50 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:10:51 <Zakim> +MSM
16:14:39 <alexmilowski> q+
16:15:33 <Norm> Norm outlines the current dichotomy between QName and NCName and p:pipeline and everwhere else.
16:15:47 <Norm> Henry: We never need to refer to p:pipelines yes?
16:16:04 <Norm> Norm: No, the p:pipe elements have to point to them.
16:16:17 <Norm> Henry: That's inside a pipeline, so we'd like that to be an NCName.
16:16:42 <Norm> Norm: We also need to be able to refer to pipelines.
16:16:58 <Norm> Henry: My vague memory was that we won't have a run-pipeline component in V1.
16:18:14 <Norm> Norm: My understanding was that we wouldn't provide a mechanism for running a dynamically constructed pipeline but that we would provide a mechanism for running static pipelines from libraries
16:18:37 <Norm> Alex: I don't see why we made the names NCNames. It should be just like the names of templates in XSLT.
16:19:41 <Norm> Henry: The major confusion factor that I've observed in that context is that you have to worry about names getting captured by the default namespace declarations.
16:21:11 <Norm> Alex: It should be up to the user. If you don't want to use QNames, you don't have to.
16:22:11 <Norm> Norm: Agenda item for next week: how to call static pipelines in an imported library.
16:22:41 <Norm> Henry: If you've defined a named pipe, then you should be able to invoke it by writing its name as a start tag in a subpipeline.
16:24:33 <Norm> Topic: Parameters
16:25:07 <MSM> zakim, please mute me
16:25:07 <Zakim> MSM should now be muted
16:25:58 <Norm> Norm: The problem as I see it is what, if anything, we do about the case of parameter for step invokation vs parameters for the invoked component.
16:28:38 <Norm> Henry: Saxon 8, for example, distinguishes between options and parameters.
16:29:23 <Norm> Norm: Jeni brings in lists of strings which I'd like to overlook for the moment.
16:29:26 <Norm> Alex: What we have now is good enough.
16:31:22 <Norm> Alex: Our current parameter story is simple and I don't think we need anything else. We can say which things are significant to the configuration of the step.
16:32:20 <Norm> Norm: Works for me.
16:33:47 <Norm> Norm: Does anyone think there's anything wrong with Alex's approach?
16:33:57 <Norm> Henry: I haven't read the thread, but it sounds right.
16:34:29 <Alessandro> q+
16:34:32 <Norm> ack Alessandro 
16:35:01 <Norm> Alessandro: I think I agree. But I still think that Jeni's answer has some merit. In particular, I like the third proposal.
16:35:42 <Norm> Norm: What problem is she solving?
16:36:15 <Norm> Alessandro: Well, it addresses the case of different classes of parameters. XSLT has two classes, but other components might have more classes.
16:36:58 <alexmilowski> q+
16:37:00 <ht> q+
16:38:43 <alexmilowski> it is the open content model for documentation problem...
16:38:50 <alexmilowski> That's the problem.
16:39:04 <Norm> Norm: I'm worried about determining the difference between subpipelines and parameters.
16:39:12 <Norm> Henry: We've said that user-defined steps are atomic.
16:39:23 <alexmilowski> e.g. the component's element can have ignorable children ...
16:39:45 <ht> zakim, mute ht
16:39:45 <Zakim> Ht should now be muted
16:40:05 <MoZ> alexmilowski, p:documentation
16:40:16 <Norm> q?
16:40:18 <Norm> ack Alessandro 
16:40:22 <Norm> ack alexmilowski 
16:40:37 <Norm> Alex: The problem is our steps have an open content model in order to allow documentation.
16:41:32 <Norm> Alex: For these crazy components that have all these problems with weird lists and values, this is XML, you can pass those as an *input*
16:42:25 <Norm> ack ht
16:42:25 <ht> ack ht
16:42:46 <Norm> Henry: That's a helpful observation. It almost leads me back to the minimalist position to which I'd originally been inclined.
16:43:33 <Norm> ...First I was going to say that my understanding of Jeni's use case is that it relies on sub-symbol spaces. But as Alex observed earlier, namespaces are the XML solution to this problme.
16:43:43 <Norm> s/problme/problem/
16:44:08 <alexmilowski> Oh... no... we need QNames on parameters for simple setting of things like XSLT parameters...
16:44:15 <Alessandro> q+
16:44:23 <Norm> Henry: I didn't notice that parameters were named with QNames. I think we should rely on here documents.
16:45:20 <Norm> Murray: There are options that I type on the command line, like -o, and then there's information that we pass into the application. It's going to use that information to do its job. A stylesheet is one example
16:45:40 <Norm> ...Although we've talked about competing name tokens, it seems to me that they're competing in different environments.
16:45:59 <Norm> ...It seems as though the conflict is happening in two different environments.
16:46:33 <ht> Whew!  saxon uses {uri}localname=value to bind parameters in namespaces to values on the command line
16:47:46 <ht> MoZ just said he likes p:option and p:parameter, and I think that's worth thinking about
16:47:48 <Norm> Norm: We don't have a mechanism for dynamically generating a document.
16:48:36 <ht> <p:parameter name="xsl:initial-mode" select="$p:initialMode"/>
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16:49:12 <Norm> Henry: I think the options of the builtin component should be in the pipeline namespace or in the appropriate namespace for the component.
16:50:18 <ht> Yeah, I guess I agree -- we're calling it p:xslt, not xsl:doit. . .
16:52:37 <Norm> Norm: I think it would be fair to just not pass the parameters in the p: namespace through
16:52:42 <Norm> Henry: I'm not sure about thta.
16:53:06 <Norm> Norm: Well, it's not clear that there's a right answer.
16:53:34 <MoZ> q+
16:53:39 <Norm> ack Alessandro 
16:53:55 <Norm> Alessandro: We could use prefixes just like I outlined in email.
16:54:35 <Norm> Henry: I think namespaces are the prefixing mechanism to use in XML.
16:54:56 <Norm> ...I come back to the other proposal that we have p:option and p:parameter.
16:55:41 <Zakim> -MoZ
16:55:48 <Norm> Norm: Can mortals be expect to tell the difference?
16:56:07 <Norm> Henry: But few components have options so it doesn't seem to be a problem.
16:56:20 <Norm> Murray: We just have to explain it in the spec.
16:56:32 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:56:34 <alexmilowski> query does too...
16:56:38 <alexmilowski> xquery that is...
16:56:39 <Norm> Henry: Only XSLT, of all the components we've discussed so far, makes this distinction.
16:56:43 <Zakim> -MoZ
16:57:22 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:57:29 <Norm> ack moz
16:58:02 <Norm> Mohamed: Jeni's remark was about configuration parameter vs. parameter that was difficult to distinguish, but maybe option and parameter will be more obvious.
16:58:20 <Norm> ...I think it would be interesting to go further.
16:59:14 <Norm> Norm: It seems like we're coming to consensus that we should use p:option and p:parameter.
16:59:53 <Norm> ACTION: Norm will type up a proposal for p:option and p:parameter.
17:00:00 <Norm> Topic: Any other business
17:00:03 <Norm> None.
17:00:06 <Norm> Adjourned.
17:00:08 <Zakim> -PGrosso
17:00:09 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
17:00:12 <Zakim> -AndrewF
17:00:13 <Zakim> -Alessandro_Vernet
17:00:14 <Zakim> -Norm
17:00:15 <Zakim> -Alex_Milowski
17:00:16 <Zakim> -rlopes
17:00:18 <Zakim> -MoZ
17:00:18 <PGrosso> PGrosso has left #xproc
17:00:19 <Zakim> -Ht
17:00:22 <Zakim> -MSM
17:00:23 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
17:00:24 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Alex_Milowski, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MSM, [IPcaller], Murray_Maloney, rlopes, MoZ, AndrewF, Ht
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17:16:12 <Norm> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
17:16:17 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:16:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-xproc-minutes.html Norm
18:13:20 <MoZ> Norm, still there ?
18:13:26 <Norm> Yes
18:14:00 <MoZ> do you have access to this email : http://www.w3.org/mid/4F614E6C-B0F5-4976-9AF2-5C925AC74556@nokia.com
18:14:39 <Norm> Yes
18:14:49 <MoZ> great,
18:14:56 <MoZ> I wanted you to read it :)
18:15:15 <Norm> I appreciate the need, but I'm sorry to see we'll have yet another transformation language
18:15:42 <MoZ> that's the tricky point
18:16:23 <MoZ> I'll try to avoid this by looking at sub/superset of XPath/XSLT/Xquery for that stuff
18:16:32 <Norm> If the XG becomes a WG, I hope the charter is "thou shalt subset XPath"
18:16:58 <Norm> As soon as it's a superset, there's a whole, huge coordination, user education, tools migration problem
18:17:02 <MoZ> I'm sure it will be a subset of XPath
18:17:14 <MoZ> the matter is more for XSLT because we need a superset actually
18:18:00 <Norm> Well, I'd rather see a strict subset there, too
18:18:16 <MoZ> hum...
18:18:35 <MoZ> If you could elaborate, i would be very happy
18:19:12 <Norm> I just think a superset is going to be a coordination, user education nightmare
18:19:42 <MoZ> you're undoubtfully right
18:20:10 <MoZ> but the very functional way of XSLT is a limitation for streaming
18:20:38 <MoZ> there will be a need to stack information
18:21:07 <Norm> Maybe I don't understand the requirements well enough. I'll look forward to reading the output of the XG :)
18:21:45 <MoZ> Great !
18:22:09 <MoZ> actually do you use StAX for big transformation ?
18:23:19 <Norm> Norm, I use XSLT :-)
18:23:37 <Norm> My XProc impl uses the StAX events APIs, but it builds DOMs for XSLT
18:27:54 <MoZ> ok
18:28:20 <MoZ> but XSLT has severe drawback for unlimited length files, and **big** files
18:29:04 <MoZ> ...you would probably tell me that it could be an xquery use case
18:30:51 <Norm> heh
18:31:02 <Norm> Norm, I like the feature, I just wish it was a little less aggressive
18:31:07 <Norm> AURRGHH!
18:31:10 <Norm> See what I mean?
18:35:42 <MSM> lol
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