IRC log of ua on 2007-03-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:49:45 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc
18:49:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent set logs public
18:50:07 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:50:25 [AllanJ]
meeting: UAWG conference call
18:50:32 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim Allan
18:50:41 [AllanJ]
scribe: Jan Richards
18:50:48 [AllanJ]
agenda:
18:51:51 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0040.html
18:53:52 [JR]
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18:55:52 [JR]
scribe: JR
18:56:46 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
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+Jim_Allan
19:00:23 [KFord]
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+??P2
19:01:33 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??P2 is KFord
19:01:33 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
19:02:02 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
19:02:18 [parente]
parente has joined #ua
19:02:26 [cklaws]
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19:02:33 [Zakim]
+??P3
19:02:44 [AllanJ]
zakim, [IBM] is cklaws
19:02:44 [Zakim]
+cklaws; got it
19:02:49 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
19:03:04 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??p3 is jr
19:03:04 [Zakim]
+jr; got it
19:03:23 [AllanJ]
zakim, [ibm] is parente
19:03:23 [Zakim]
+parente; got it
19:04:32 [JR]
Topic: 1. Review Acton items
19:04:43 [JR]
JA: ACTION: KF to 3f DONE
19:04:52 [JR]
JA: ACTION: JA to Will combine KF's 3f and 3d
19:04:55 [JR]
DONE
19:05:09 [JR]
JA: ACTION: KF to Send 1f text
19:05:29 [JR]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0042.html
19:05:39 [JR]
JA: Do we need "more" in there
19:05:51 [JR]
JA: or just "clarity"
19:06:38 [JR]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0035.html
19:06:59 [JR]
JA: ACTION: JR to Add a sentence to 3e saying we'll keep an eye on emerging
19:06:59 [JR]
protocols in this area
19:08:02 [JR]
ACTION: JA to will do 1c
19:08:19 [JR]
JA: ACTION: JA to will do 1c
19:08:52 [JR]
JA: Discussing reviewing issue of wcag/uaag reponsibility split
19:09:00 [JR]
JA: Would like some more eyes on this
19:09:49 [JR]
JR: Also maybe want to look at principle of split
19:10:08 [JR]
JA: Example: Checkpoint 2.1.1
19:10:25 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html#keyboard-operation
19:10:39 [AllanJ]
2.1.1 All functionality of the content is operable in a non-time-dependent manner through a keyboard interface, except where the task requires analog, time-dependent input.
19:11:49 [JR]
JA: Doesn't seem like it should be here - author has no control of plugin
19:12:06 [JR]
CL: But this could be a web app - author does control
19:12:29 [JR]
CL: But yes in the static web it's the browser or plugin who provides this
19:12:58 [JR]
Action JR: Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility
19:13:21 [JR]
JA: ACTION: JA to Will do 2c
19:13:51 [JR]
JA: As thinking thought we needed to define core behaviour in browser before getting in to extnesions etc
19:14:08 [AllanJ]
extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)
19:14:43 [JR]
JA: Ex. can't get alt text from keyboard without screen reader - with mouse can hover to get tooltip
19:15:08 [JR]
JA: We should always say mouse AND keyboard
19:16:14 [JR]
CL: Right should be able to get tooltips from keyboard
19:16:27 [JR]
JA: Right Doesn't know of any browser
19:16:39 [JR]
CL: Author could do it
19:16:48 [JR]
JA: I've tried
19:17:17 [JR]
CL: In CL there is much bigger concept of tooltips - with controls etc
19:18:15 [JR]
JA: OK there are two levels - plain HTML etc and ARIA level
19:18:45 [AllanJ]
Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)
19:19:18 [JR]
JA: Will clean this up and send to the list
19:19:59 [cklaws]
A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent.
19:19:59 [JR]
JA: We don't have a defintion for "extension"
19:20:15 [AllanJ]
plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)
19:21:01 [JR]
JA: TEITAC wrestling with plugin issue...
19:21:16 [JR]
JA: THey are a platform within a platform...
19:21:37 [AllanJ]
Web applications (Flash?) author provide UI - content written appropriately, browser take content and sends to API
19:21:41 [JR]
JA: Flash came up, sort of a plugin but author provide UI like a web application
19:22:23 [JR]
CL:Wikipedia has some good definitions
19:22:43 [JR]
JA: At one time, thought flash was a plugin...
19:23:29 [cklaws]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0#Rich_Internet_applications
19:24:06 [JR]
JA: Then...is SVG a plugin now that its in Firefox natively
19:24:58 [JR]
JR: User agents don't need to be HTML only...
19:25:14 [JR]
KF: Some technologies can be in both platforms
19:25:41 [JR]
KK: Like acrobat vs reader
19:25:46 [JR]
KK=KF
19:26:00 [JR]
CL: Reader more accessible when not embedded
19:26:29 [JR]
JA: Are charcterizations clear in extensions defn?
19:26:50 [cklaws]
But Flash is currently only accessible as an ActiveX control in a Web page - in IE on Windows today
19:27:30 [AllanJ]
>extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)
19:28:20 [JR]
CL: I think of extensions on Firefox...
19:28:31 [JR]
KF: IE has extensions as well...
19:28:50 [JR]
KF: ...Something added to Chrome...may interact on content
19:29:56 [cklaws]
The term extension in a computing context most commonly refers to a computer program that although not useful or functional in its own right, is designed to be incorporated into another piece of software in order to enhance, or extend, the functionality.
19:30:10 [AllanJ]
JR: extensions are going to be added to a UA, included in the conformance profile...browser + extension x, y, z conform
19:30:46 [JR]
JR: I like CL's wikipedia example
19:31:09 [JR]
JA: Agreed that extensions become part of chrome...
19:32:05 [JR]
KF: THere's a firefox extension that adds numbers to all links
19:32:21 [JR]
JA: Also ad-blocker
19:32:54 [JR]
JA: Have seen extensions loaded into status bar
19:33:18 [JR]
JA: Think my defn is ok so far
19:34:06 [JR]
CL: OK its fine
19:34:24 [AllanJ]
plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)
19:35:01 [JR]
CL: This had been in UAAG ...
19:35:13 [JR]
CL: But often APPEARS to be in content - even though not in DOM
19:35:50 [JR]
JA: OK current defn missing that
19:36:01 [JR]
...important piece.
19:36:39 [JR]
JA: Was thinking specifically of media players...
19:36:53 [JR]
JA: Have own user interface - stop, play volume slider...
19:37:10 [JR]
JA: Outside of browser chrome, UA doesn't know about them...
19:37:25 [JR]
CL: Once in, keyboard handled by that use interface
19:37:45 [JR]
JA: Maybe need to be more clear than term "UI"
19:38:04 [JR]
KF: Yes need to clarify a bit more - especially what we mean by own UI
19:38:40 [JR]
CL: They have their own controls and their own keyboard nav...
19:39:44 [JR]
KF: Isn't this kind of plugin a user agent...
19:39:57 [JR]
CL: Sometimes its a "player"...
19:40:33 [AllanJ]
KF: browser is a player of html
19:40:40 [AllanJ]
...player is a UA
19:41:11 [JR]
AJ: I've always though of plugins as players of different formats
19:41:17 [JR]
AJ=JA
19:42:26 [AllanJ]
CL: flash in a webpage, don't know that its not part of the content. doesn't have its own ui
19:43:09 [JR]
KF: "DocHosted"
19:43:42 [AllanJ]
...other types of players, word & pdf are hosted applications with own controls and interface embeded in the browser
19:43:49 [JR]
JR: Seems like between plugin and extension
19:45:33 [cklaws]
Plugins are slightly different from extensions, which modify or add to existing functionality. The main difference is that plugins generally rely on the main application's user interface and have a well-defined boundary to their possible set of actions. Extensions generally have fewer restrictions on their actions, and may provide their own user interfaces.
19:46:09 [JR]
KF: Plugin and extensions cover the field including DocHosting
19:47:19 [JR]
CL: Plugins trying to use same chrome for diff content
19:47:45 [AllanJ]
jr: plugins work with different types of content, may provide their own chrome
19:47:58 [JR]
CL: Extensions opertating on same content
19:48:15 [JR]
CL: Plugins working on new kind of content
19:48:35 [JR]
KF: Has to leave early
19:48:48 [Zakim]
-KFord
19:48:54 [JR]
JA: Let's just finish AT, we'll do the use cases next time
19:49:24 [JR]
JA: Hypothetical...we have SVG native in browser...
19:49:47 [JR]
...then not a plugin anymore...just has to follow UA guidelines.
19:50:43 [AllanJ]
Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)
19:51:15 [JR]
CL: OK we may want ot change AT defn...
19:51:38 [JR]
CL: In UAAG 1. went back and forth on whether it is a user agent
19:52:18 [JR]
CL: Further confused by integrated browsers...PWwebspeak, HPR...
19:52:32 [JR]
CL: But some ATs might be extensions
19:52:57 [AllanJ]
...- firevox, webadapt2me
19:53:04 [JR]
CL: SOme might not be out of process
19:53:33 [JR]
CL: Inprocess - go to DOM to do nav etc., Out of process use accessibility API
19:54:18 [Zakim]
-cklaws
19:54:20 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:54:21 [JR]
JA: Good point separate core tools from assistive tech functionality
19:54:30 [cklaws]
my phone just died
19:54:33 [parente]
mine too
19:54:44 [AllanJ]
me too
19:54:48 [parente]
must be IBM
19:54:57 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
19:55:11 [AllanJ]
its almost end of time. lets just cal it quits
19:55:20 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
19:55:32 [JR]
zakim, [IBM] is really cklaws
19:55:32 [Zakim]
+cklaws; got it
19:56:14 [JR]
JA: Let's continue this next time
19:56:25 [JR]
JA: "Base" user agent
19:57:08 [Zakim]
-cklaws
19:57:09 [Zakim]
-parente
19:57:09 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
20:10:50 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:10:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html JR
20:10:56 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
20:12:28 [JR]
Zakim, bye
20:12:28 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, KFord, cklaws, jr, parente
20:12:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
20:12:36 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
20:12:36 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-actions.rdf :
20:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to will do 1c [1]
20:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc#T19-08-02
20:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility [2]
20:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc#T19-12-58