IRC log of tsdtf on 2007-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:26:41 [RRSAgent]

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13:26:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc

13:26:48 [Zakim]

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13:26:54 [Vangelis]

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13:26:57 [shadi]

zakim, this will be tsd

13:26:57 [Zakim]

ok, shadi; I see WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

13:27:05 [shadi]

meeting: TSD TF

13:27:14 [shadi]

chair: CarlosV, Christophe

13:28:09 [shadi]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0024.html

13:28:29 [shadi]

agenda+ De-briefing on ERT F2F

13:28:49 [shadi]

agenda+ Updates to the review process document

13:29:06 [shadi]

agenda+ Example entries based on currently available test samples and reviews

13:29:21 [shadi]

agenda+ New proposal of work for the TF

13:29:46 [Zakim]

WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has now started

13:29:48 [Zakim]

+Shadi

13:29:49 [Christophe]

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13:30:53 [Tim]

Tim has joined #tsdtf

13:31:40 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

13:32:32 [Zakim]

+Vangelis_Karkaletsis

13:33:00 [CarlosV]

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13:33:30 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe

13:33:39 [MichaelC]

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13:33:55 [Christophe]

zakim, who's on the call?

13:33:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Shadi, Tim_Boland, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, Christophe_Strobbe

13:34:09 [Zakim]

+Cooper

13:34:29 [Zakim]

+??P3

13:34:44 [Zakim]

+ +43.702.468.aaaa

13:35:00 [CarlosV]

zakim, ??P3 is really CarlosV

13:35:00 [Zakim]

+CarlosV; got it

13:35:29 [Christophe]

zakim, +43 is ReinhardR

13:35:29 [Zakim]

+ReinhardR; got it

13:36:51 [shadi]

agenda?

13:37:10 [shadi]

zakim, take up agendum 1

13:37:10 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "De-briefing on ERT F2F" taken up [from shadi]

13:37:42 [shadi]

scribe: Tim

13:38:07 [Tim]

SZ: recent ERT f2f 22-23 Feb in Spain - small group

13:38:34 [Tim]

SZ: last call for EARL hopefully

13:38:53 [Tim]

for this TF, changes to HTTP vocabulary, RDF pointers

13:39:04 [Tim]

feed back into open questions with TCDL

13:39:26 [Tim]

RDF pointers can reference target now

13:39:37 [Tim]

editors need to produce new draft

13:39:51 [Tim]

CS: could already point to files before RDF changed?

13:40:00 [Tim]

SZ: should be simpler now

13:40:42 [shadi]

zakim, close agendum 1

13:40:42 [Zakim]

agendum 1, De-briefing on ERT F2F, closed

13:40:43 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

13:40:44 [Zakim]

2. Updates to the review process document [from shadi]

13:40:45 [shadi]

zakim, take up agendum 2

13:40:45 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Updates to the review process document" taken up [from shadi]

13:41:06 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2006/tests/process

13:41:41 [Tim]

SZ: steps taken to review test sample once uploaded

13:42:13 [Tim]

SZ: various phases - structure review (simplified in future), then

13:42:25 [Tim]

SZ: content evaluation, then straw poll

13:43:02 [Tim]

SZ: main changes in later part of document, checklists to help reviewer

13:43:16 [Tim]

SZ: should be easier to read now and more helpful

13:43:39 [Tim]

SZ: structure review is objective criteria, then more subjective checklist

13:44:00 [Tim]

for content review, hard to pin down

13:44:15 [Tim]

SZ: four points to look at, then looked at by rest of group

13:44:58 [Tim]

CS: first item in checklist for content review, last sentence is unclear?

13:46:31 [Tim]

SZ: don't try to combine several test procedures into one test sample?

13:46:45 [Tim]

CS: syntax appears confusing

13:48:03 [Tim]

TB: What constitutes an issue?

13:48:12 [Tim]

SZ: issues are things to be addressed

13:49:22 [Tim]

SZ: is there understanding of four criteria in content review?

13:49:37 [Tim]

CV: don't like last one

13:49:52 [Tim]

SZ: are these good points? should there be others?

13:52:18 [Tim]

RESOLUTION: "or to combine several issues in one test" changed to "in other words, it must not combine several issues in one test"

13:53:19 [Tim]

SZ: mutual to interpretation - comments?

13:54:13 [Tim]

CV: WCAG WG has not yet made up its mind?

13:54:50 [Tim]

..posed some questions to WG, most still yet not responded to

13:55:00 [Tim]

MC: How were these questions raised?

13:55:11 [Tim]

CV: in mailing list

13:55:40 [Tim]

MC: just send me pointers and will follow up

13:56:04 [Tim]

CS: in future, if things not quite clear, what process do we follow?

13:56:25 [Tim]

MC: good question for chair planning call, please send to mailing list?

13:56:32 [Tim]

CS: OK

13:57:24 [Tim]

SZ: suggest if sample ready, but questions about test procedure, test sample put on hold and feedabck into WG

13:57:44 [Tim]

SZ: outcomes of TF is provide reflection on test procedures

13:58:11 [Tim]

CV: could be bottleneck, BentoWeb record decision and wait for feedback

13:58:27 [Tim]

CS: maybe minority of test procedures?

13:58:46 [Tim]

SZ: no point in producing test samples, if test procedures change

13:59:12 [MichaelC]

q+

13:59:21 [Tim]

CV: involves definitions and interpretations, need to provide additional input into WG?

13:59:50 [Tim]

SZ: TF focuses on other test samples while questions pending to WG..

14:00:19 [Tim]

SZ: now have more work than frozen test samples, samples need to be frozen while under consideration by WG

14:01:08 [Tim]

CS: map to SC, create test samples for things which have no matching technique or failure

14:01:32 [Tim]

SZ: optimistic that WCAG WG will work on techniques, and feed back into TF

14:01:42 [Tim]

ack Michael

14:02:26 [Tim]

MC: can't make promises about how quickly WCAG WG will respond, don't want to unnecessarily slow down TF

14:02:53 [Tim]

MC: it's good for TF to push WG forward a bit, but if TF is blocked by lack of

14:03:15 [Tim]

response within WG, need to minimize impact on TF..

14:03:40 [Tim]

are close to processing LC comments, attention focus on techniques, need for tests will become

14:03:57 [Tim]

much higher soon

14:04:12 [Tim]

MC: response from WG will change, and should plan for that

14:04:27 [MichaelC]

ack me

14:04:41 [Tim]

SZ: if test procedure prone to interpretation, hold test sample, document quesetions to WCAG WG,

14:04:50 [Tim]

and continue work on something else

14:05:04 [Tim]

SZ: shouldn't be affected that much right now

14:05:40 [Tim]

SZ: minimal and complete - comments?

14:06:08 [Tim]

CS: interpretation of minimal?

14:06:32 [Tim]

CV: difficult balance between minimal and meaningful?

14:06:55 [Tim]

SZ: put meaningful in description somewhere?

14:07:48 [Tim]

ACTION: SZ to consider words "meaningful", "realistic", and "in context of the files"

14:08:13 [Tim]

SZ: effective and efficient - comments?

14:08:48 [Tim]

CV: problems with explanation?

14:09:17 [Tim]

CV: some BentoWeb test samples not easy to implement?

14:09:42 [Tim]

SZ: "as easy as possible to implement"?

14:10:08 [Tim]

SZ: if two ways, and select harder one, not the idea of it

14:10:32 [Tim]

CS: also refering to failures

14:11:09 [Tim]

CV: remove "easy to implement"

14:11:39 [Tim]

RESOLUTION: remove "easy to implement"

14:12:14 [Tim]

SZ: other comments on content review or structure review checklist?

14:12:49 [Tim]

CS: test procedures have T or F outcomes, metadata pass or fail, should these match?

14:13:49 [Tim]

CS: P or F in metadata should match outcome of test procedure

14:14:15 [Tim]

SZ: if doesn't match, wouldn't that be reinterpretation?

14:14:33 [Tim]

ACTION: SZ to consider wording on matching outcomes

14:16:51 [Tim]

V: wondering about completeness of SC (regarding test samples and techniques)

14:17:17 [Tim]

EV: need to address this somewhere?

14:17:33 [Tim]

s/EV/VE

14:18:11 [Tim]

SZ: not looking at SC at all in this TF

14:18:26 [Tim]

VE: are they all in there?

14:20:18 [Tim]

VE: need to measure if test samples cover everything relative to SC?

14:20:44 [Tim]

SZ: this falls under techniques development

14:21:19 [Tim]

SZ: beyond our scope

14:21:42 [Tim]

SZ: feedback from evaluating test samples, back into WG

14:22:23 [Tim]

MC: not in scope of TF to work on techniques, but TF could find gaps in techniques and feed into WG

14:24:23 [Tim]

SZ: maybe in minds of chairs of TF, review of test sample with this perspective, but not

14:24:34 [Tim]

explicit outcome of review process, but implicit

14:25:30 [Tim]

MC: high priority to testing issues around techniques

14:25:55 [Tim]

SZ: possible outcome to WCAGWG

14:27:02 [Tim]

ACTION: CV and SZ to think about how to feedback coverage issues into WCAG WG

14:27:28 [shadi]

zakim, close agendum 2

14:27:28 [Zakim]

agendum 2, Updates to the review process document, closed

14:27:29 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:27:30 [Zakim]

3. Example entries based on currently available test samples and reviews [from shadi]

14:27:36 [shadi]

zakim, take up agendum 4

14:27:36 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "New proposal of work for the TF" taken up [from shadi]

14:28:09 [Tim]

SZ: current participation is issue - need more participants

14:28:46 [Tim]

SZ: set up CVS repositories need to upload test samples and start reviewing

14:29:10 [Tim]

free up telecon time to review samples

14:29:31 [Tim]

SZ: see how it goes, maybe get more participation or attention from WCAG WG

14:30:27 [Tim]

CV: voting in group to go in that direction - what is process?

14:30:48 [Tim]

CV: maybe biweekly calls?

14:31:04 [Tim]

SZ: inform WCAG WG chairs?

14:31:55 [Tim]

ACTION: MC to notify chairs about change in working mode

14:32:37 [Tim]

SZ: meet next week to hand out action items

14:33:52 [Tim]

ACTION: CV to give action items to BentoWeb people to upload test samples

14:34:25 [Tim]

SZ: next meeting in two weeks

14:34:49 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

14:34:51 [Zakim]

-Vangelis_Karkaletsis

14:34:58 [Zakim]

-CarlosV

14:36:57 [Zakim]

-ReinhardR

14:37:00 [Zakim]

-Shadi

14:37:38 [shadi]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:37:38 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Christophe_Strobbe, Cooper

14:45:32 [shadi]

zakim, drop chris

14:45:32 [Zakim]

Christophe_Strobbe is being disconnected

14:45:34 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

14:45:37 [shadi]

zakim, drop cooper

14:45:37 [Zakim]

Cooper is being disconnected

14:45:38 [Zakim]

WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has ended

14:45:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were Shadi, Tim_Boland, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, Christophe_Strobbe, Cooper, +43.702.468.aaaa, CarlosV, ReinhardR

14:45:44 [shadi]

zakim, bye

14:45:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #tsdtf

14:45:55 [shadi]

rrsagent, make logs world

14:45:59 [shadi]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:45:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-minutes.html shadi

14:46:00 [shadi]

rrsagent, make logs world

14:46:05 [shadi]

rrsagent, bye

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-actions.rdf :

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SZ to consider words "meaningful", "realistic", and "in context of the files" [1]

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc#T14-07-48

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SZ to consider wording on matching outcomes [2]

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc#T14-14-33

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CV and SZ to think about how to feedback coverage issues into WCAG WG [3]

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc#T14-27-02

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MC to notify chairs about change in working mode [4]

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc#T14-31-55

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CV to give action items to BentoWeb people to upload test samples [5]

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-tsdtf-irc#T14-33-52