IRC log of tsdtf on 2007-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:26:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tsdtf
13:26:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:26:48 [Zakim]
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13:26:54 [Vangelis]
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13:26:57 [shadi]
zakim, this will be tsd
13:26:57 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:27:05 [shadi]
meeting: TSD TF
13:27:14 [shadi]
chair: CarlosV, Christophe
13:28:09 [shadi]
13:28:29 [shadi]
agenda+ De-briefing on ERT F2F
13:28:49 [shadi]
agenda+ Updates to the review process document
13:29:06 [shadi]
agenda+ Example entries based on currently available test samples and reviews
13:29:21 [shadi]
agenda+ New proposal of work for the TF
13:29:46 [Zakim]
WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has now started
13:29:48 [Zakim]
13:29:49 [Christophe]
Christophe has joined #tsdtf
13:30:53 [Tim]
Tim has joined #tsdtf
13:31:40 [Zakim]
13:32:32 [Zakim]
13:33:00 [CarlosV]
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13:33:30 [Zakim]
13:33:39 [MichaelC]
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13:33:55 [Christophe]
zakim, who's on the call?
13:33:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Tim_Boland, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, Christophe_Strobbe
13:34:09 [Zakim]
13:34:29 [Zakim]
13:34:44 [Zakim]
+ +43.702.468.aaaa
13:35:00 [CarlosV]
zakim, ??P3 is really CarlosV
13:35:00 [Zakim]
+CarlosV; got it
13:35:29 [Christophe]
zakim, +43 is ReinhardR
13:35:29 [Zakim]
+ReinhardR; got it
13:36:51 [shadi]
13:37:10 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
13:37:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "De-briefing on ERT F2F" taken up [from shadi]
13:37:42 [shadi]
scribe: Tim
13:38:07 [Tim]
SZ: recent ERT f2f 22-23 Feb in Spain - small group
13:38:34 [Tim]
SZ: last call for EARL hopefully
13:38:53 [Tim]
for this TF, changes to HTTP vocabulary, RDF pointers
13:39:04 [Tim]
feed back into open questions with TCDL
13:39:26 [Tim]
RDF pointers can reference target now
13:39:37 [Tim]
editors need to produce new draft
13:39:51 [Tim]
CS: could already point to files before RDF changed?
13:40:00 [Tim]
SZ: should be simpler now
13:40:42 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 1
13:40:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1, De-briefing on ERT F2F, closed
13:40:43 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:40:44 [Zakim]
2. Updates to the review process document [from shadi]
13:40:45 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 2
13:40:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Updates to the review process document" taken up [from shadi]
13:41:06 [shadi]
13:41:41 [Tim]
SZ: steps taken to review test sample once uploaded
13:42:13 [Tim]
SZ: various phases - structure review (simplified in future), then
13:42:25 [Tim]
SZ: content evaluation, then straw poll
13:43:02 [Tim]
SZ: main changes in later part of document, checklists to help reviewer
13:43:16 [Tim]
SZ: should be easier to read now and more helpful
13:43:39 [Tim]
SZ: structure review is objective criteria, then more subjective checklist
13:44:00 [Tim]
for content review, hard to pin down
13:44:15 [Tim]
SZ: four points to look at, then looked at by rest of group
13:44:58 [Tim]
CS: first item in checklist for content review, last sentence is unclear?
13:46:31 [Tim]
SZ: don't try to combine several test procedures into one test sample?
13:46:45 [Tim]
CS: syntax appears confusing
13:48:03 [Tim]
TB: What constitutes an issue?
13:48:12 [Tim]
SZ: issues are things to be addressed
13:49:22 [Tim]
SZ: is there understanding of four criteria in content review?
13:49:37 [Tim]
CV: don't like last one
13:49:52 [Tim]
SZ: are these good points? should there be others?
13:52:18 [Tim]
RESOLUTION: "or to combine several issues in one test" changed to "in other words, it must not combine several issues in one test"
13:53:19 [Tim]
SZ: mutual to interpretation - comments?
13:54:13 [Tim]
CV: WCAG WG has not yet made up its mind?
13:54:50 [Tim]
..posed some questions to WG, most still yet not responded to
13:55:00 [Tim]
MC: How were these questions raised?
13:55:11 [Tim]
CV: in mailing list
13:55:40 [Tim]
MC: just send me pointers and will follow up
13:56:04 [Tim]
CS: in future, if things not quite clear, what process do we follow?
13:56:25 [Tim]
MC: good question for chair planning call, please send to mailing list?
13:56:32 [Tim]
13:57:24 [Tim]
SZ: suggest if sample ready, but questions about test procedure, test sample put on hold and feedabck into WG
13:57:44 [Tim]
SZ: outcomes of TF is provide reflection on test procedures
13:58:11 [Tim]
CV: could be bottleneck, BentoWeb record decision and wait for feedback
13:58:27 [Tim]
CS: maybe minority of test procedures?
13:58:46 [Tim]
SZ: no point in producing test samples, if test procedures change
13:59:12 [MichaelC]
13:59:21 [Tim]
CV: involves definitions and interpretations, need to provide additional input into WG?
13:59:50 [Tim]
SZ: TF focuses on other test samples while questions pending to WG..
14:00:19 [Tim]
SZ: now have more work than frozen test samples, samples need to be frozen while under consideration by WG
14:01:08 [Tim]
CS: map to SC, create test samples for things which have no matching technique or failure
14:01:32 [Tim]
SZ: optimistic that WCAG WG will work on techniques, and feed back into TF
14:01:42 [Tim]
ack Michael
14:02:26 [Tim]
MC: can't make promises about how quickly WCAG WG will respond, don't want to unnecessarily slow down TF
14:02:53 [Tim]
MC: it's good for TF to push WG forward a bit, but if TF is blocked by lack of
14:03:15 [Tim]
response within WG, need to minimize impact on TF..
14:03:40 [Tim]
are close to processing LC comments, attention focus on techniques, need for tests will become
14:03:57 [Tim]
much higher soon
14:04:12 [Tim]
MC: response from WG will change, and should plan for that
14:04:27 [MichaelC]
ack me
14:04:41 [Tim]
SZ: if test procedure prone to interpretation, hold test sample, document quesetions to WCAG WG,
14:04:50 [Tim]
and continue work on something else
14:05:04 [Tim]
SZ: shouldn't be affected that much right now
14:05:40 [Tim]
SZ: minimal and complete - comments?
14:06:08 [Tim]
CS: interpretation of minimal?
14:06:32 [Tim]
CV: difficult balance between minimal and meaningful?
14:06:55 [Tim]
SZ: put meaningful in description somewhere?
14:07:48 [Tim]
ACTION: SZ to consider words "meaningful", "realistic", and "in context of the files"
14:08:13 [Tim]
SZ: effective and efficient - comments?
14:08:48 [Tim]
CV: problems with explanation?
14:09:17 [Tim]
CV: some BentoWeb test samples not easy to implement?
14:09:42 [Tim]
SZ: "as easy as possible to implement"?
14:10:08 [Tim]
SZ: if two ways, and select harder one, not the idea of it
14:10:32 [Tim]
CS: also refering to failures
14:11:09 [Tim]
CV: remove "easy to implement"
14:11:39 [Tim]
RESOLUTION: remove "easy to implement"
14:12:14 [Tim]
SZ: other comments on content review or structure review checklist?
14:12:49 [Tim]
CS: test procedures have T or F outcomes, metadata pass or fail, should these match?
14:13:49 [Tim]
CS: P or F in metadata should match outcome of test procedure
14:14:15 [Tim]
SZ: if doesn't match, wouldn't that be reinterpretation?
14:14:33 [Tim]
ACTION: SZ to consider wording on matching outcomes
14:16:51 [Tim]
V: wondering about completeness of SC (regarding test samples and techniques)
14:17:17 [Tim]
EV: need to address this somewhere?
14:17:33 [Tim]
14:18:11 [Tim]
SZ: not looking at SC at all in this TF
14:18:26 [Tim]
VE: are they all in there?
14:20:18 [Tim]
VE: need to measure if test samples cover everything relative to SC?
14:20:44 [Tim]
SZ: this falls under techniques development
14:21:19 [Tim]
SZ: beyond our scope
14:21:42 [Tim]
SZ: feedback from evaluating test samples, back into WG
14:22:23 [Tim]
MC: not in scope of TF to work on techniques, but TF could find gaps in techniques and feed into WG
14:24:23 [Tim]
SZ: maybe in minds of chairs of TF, review of test sample with this perspective, but not
14:24:34 [Tim]
explicit outcome of review process, but implicit
14:25:30 [Tim]
MC: high priority to testing issues around techniques
14:25:55 [Tim]
SZ: possible outcome to WCAGWG
14:27:02 [Tim]
ACTION: CV and SZ to think about how to feedback coverage issues into WCAG WG
14:27:28 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 2
14:27:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Updates to the review process document, closed
14:27:29 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:27:30 [Zakim]
3. Example entries based on currently available test samples and reviews [from shadi]
14:27:36 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:27:36 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "New proposal of work for the TF" taken up [from shadi]
14:28:09 [Tim]
SZ: current participation is issue - need more participants
14:28:46 [Tim]
SZ: set up CVS repositories need to upload test samples and start reviewing
14:29:10 [Tim]
free up telecon time to review samples
14:29:31 [Tim]
SZ: see how it goes, maybe get more participation or attention from WCAG WG
14:30:27 [Tim]
CV: voting in group to go in that direction - what is process?
14:30:48 [Tim]
CV: maybe biweekly calls?
14:31:04 [Tim]
SZ: inform WCAG WG chairs?
14:31:55 [Tim]
ACTION: MC to notify chairs about change in working mode
14:32:37 [Tim]
SZ: meet next week to hand out action items
14:33:52 [Tim]
ACTION: CV to give action items to BentoWeb people to upload test samples
14:34:25 [Tim]
SZ: next meeting in two weeks
14:34:49 [Zakim]
14:34:51 [Zakim]
14:34:58 [Zakim]
14:36:57 [Zakim]
14:37:00 [Zakim]
14:37:38 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:37:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Christophe_Strobbe, Cooper
14:45:32 [shadi]
zakim, drop chris
14:45:32 [Zakim]
Christophe_Strobbe is being disconnected
14:45:34 [Zakim]
14:45:37 [shadi]
zakim, drop cooper
14:45:37 [Zakim]
Cooper is being disconnected
14:45:38 [Zakim]
WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has ended
14:45:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shadi, Tim_Boland, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, Christophe_Strobbe, Cooper, +43.702.468.aaaa, CarlosV, ReinhardR
14:45:44 [shadi]
zakim, bye
14:45:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tsdtf
14:45:55 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:45:59 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
14:46:00 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:46:05 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SZ to consider words "meaningful", "realistic", and "in context of the files" [1]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SZ to consider wording on matching outcomes [2]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CV and SZ to think about how to feedback coverage issues into WCAG WG [3]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MC to notify chairs about change in working mode [4]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CV to give action items to BentoWeb people to upload test samples [5]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in