21:20:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif2
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21:20:12 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
21:20:15 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif2
21:28:26 <DaveReynolds> Chris: Discussion is to progress the issues we've been circling around about metamodels, asn06, BNF etc and which is in the document in the final form
21:28:55 <DaveReynolds> Dave: table discussion on metadata and use of RDF as a related issue, but not tackle that head on know
21:29:16 <DaveReynolds> Harold: what about the KM3 language pointed to by Gerd?
21:30:22 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: datapoint, have already built an asn06 to UML-like diagram translator, see posting on mail list
21:31:57 <DaveReynolds> ... using composition symbol
21:32:20 <DaveReynolds> ... humm, does the recursion/cycles cause problems?
21:33:10 <DaveReynolds> ... no problem, here we are talking about classes not instances
21:37:51 <DaveReynolds> Chris: so we can use a MOF diagram to represent the syntax
21:38:25 <DaveReynolds> ... issue remains that a metamodeller would expect features such as the signature of constants which aren't directly related to the syntax
21:38:56 <DaveReynolds> ... need to be clear we are only using the metamodel for the abstract syntax
21:40:32 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: lets look at a better example of the diff between metamodel and use for syntax
21:44:08 <DaveReynolds> Chris: uses ODM as an example of the differences 
21:49:29 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: convinced there are differences there
21:49:39 <sandro> ---   We'll use UML to help visualizating the abstract syntax, but it's not a metamodel.
21:50:08 <DaveReynolds> Chris: so we can use MOF/UML as a visualization of our abstract syntax but we avoid calling it a metamodel
22:03:36 <DaveReynolds> [Discussion on human readable syntax, fully striped is not very readable]
22:10:30 <DaveReynolds> Discussion on the term "human readable syntax" suggested using "presentation syntax" instead
22:14:29 <DaveReynolds> Chris voices preference that the presentation syntax be simple enough, so avoid fully striped
22:15:53 <DaveReynolds> Issue about distinguishing builtin connectives (and, or etc) and user defined predicates
22:27:34 <DaveReynolds> But if everything is a is a URI then the rif namespace separates And from user defined Ands
22:34:45 <DaveReynolds> Discussion on avoiding things like :- as too sugared and might upset people as too prolog/like
22:35:37 <DaveReynolds> ... could avoid special symbols and infixes, stick to the names in the asn06 but skip the roles and use ordering to reduce verbosity
22:40:35 <DaveReynolds> Action Sandro to make concrete proposal for the presentation syntax based on this discussion
22:42:35 <DaveReynolds> Code name for the discussion presentation syntax: rps
22:42:35 <sandro>   "RPSa"   RIF Presentation Syntax a
22:42:55 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
22:42:55 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif2-irc#T22-42-55
22:47:10 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif2
22:50:42 <sandro> scribenick DaveReynolds 
22:50:45 <sandro> scribenick: DaveReynolds 
22:50:50 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:50:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif2-minutes.html sandro
22:51:22 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
22:55:19 <sandro> Present: ChrisW, Sandro, MichaelKifer, Harold, Dru_McCandless
22:55:27 <sandro> Chrair: ChrisW
22:55:33 <sandro> Present: ChrisW, Sandro, MichaelKifer, Harold, Dru_McCandless, DaveReynolds 
22:55:38 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:55:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif2-minutes.html sandro
22:55:59 <sandro> Meeting: RIF F2F5 Syntax Breakout
22:56:11 <sandro> Chair: ChrisW
22:56:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:56:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif2-minutes.html sandro