IRC log of er on 2007-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:00:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #er
10:00:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc
10:00:22 [Zakim]
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10:00:26 [chaals]
topic: pointers
10:01:37 [chaals]
If you have a range pointer (and anyway), you need to know whether pointers like linecharpointers refer to a range of one character/byte/etc or to a point just befre/after them (which is conceptually pure and beautiful but seems the wrong choice)
10:19:24 [JohannesK]
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10:19:46 [shadi]
[discussion and refinement of pointers proposal by Johannes]
10:20:02 [shadi]
action: Johannes to send proposal to the list
10:20:22 [CarlosI]
do we need a pointer that points to a resource as a hole not to a part of a resource?, something like a ResourcePointer with just a reference property
10:20:26 [shadi]
scribe: chaals, shadi, JohannesK, CarlosI
10:21:26 [shadi]
action: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly
10:21:42 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make logs world
10:21:46 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:21:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
11:04:10 [shadi]
Topic: EARL 1.0 Schema
11:04:23 [shadi]
Known Issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/issues
11:05:06 [shadi]
Current WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/
11:05:24 [shadi]
New internal draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/WD-EARL10-Schema-20070222
11:14:33 [chaals]
ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name
11:15:51 [chaals]
Using other RDF (e.g. Dublin Core) to more extensively describe the organisation is recommended.
11:16:05 [chaals]
ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation
11:22:57 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Drop example 7 - it is as confusing as helpful and we prolly don't really need it anyway.
11:24:33 [chaals]
ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property
11:26:20 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Change earl:instance to earl:pointer
11:27:31 [chaals]
Should the pointer be restricted
11:28:01 [chaals]
CMN: Don't think so, but recommend using pointer:pointer and making the ponter:reference be the earl:testSubject
11:41:06 [shadi]
CI: what about several test subjects? for example, testing consistent navigation on 10 pages at the same time, how to record 10 test subjects in EARL?
11:41:39 [JohannesK]
<http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/#collections>
11:42:04 [shadi]
SAZ: either earl:TestSubjects, earl:WebContents, or >=1 earl:subject properties per assertion
11:42:24 [shadi]
CI & JK: don't like the latter, prone for missuse
11:50:00 [shadi]
solution: <earl:subject rdf:parseType="collection">
11:50:41 [shadi]
<earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>
11:50:43 [shadi]
<earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>
11:50:45 [shadi]
...
11:50:56 [shadi]
</earl:subject>
11:52:04 [shadi]
RESOLUTION: describing multiple test subjects must be explained in the EARL 1.0 Guide
11:52:29 [shadi]
action: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide
11:57:22 [shadi]
CI: can still be misused, for example to summarize several assertions into one
11:57:44 [shadi]
...can not be checked automatically, must be interpreted by the use case
11:59:53 [shadi]
JK: how about using the dc:hasPart of the TestSubject class (to point to several sub-parts of a test subject)
12:04:04 [shadi]
CI: still have some concerns, need to think about it
12:04:35 [shadi]
action: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects)
12:05:24 [shadi]
action: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject
12:11:06 [Zakim]
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12:30:24 [shadi]
[discussion on earl:info -do we need a more elaborate warnings mechanism?]
12:30:55 [shadi]
general impression: info depends on the test case descriptions
12:31:17 [shadi]
CMN: leave the range of the info open so that people can subclass it or use it differently
12:33:27 [chaals]
restricting it to Literal is a Very Bad Idea™
12:33:32 [shadi]
SAZ: concerned about possible misuse, could add an earl:warning property when the time comes
12:35:00 [shadi]
action: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed
12:40:49 [JibberJim]
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12:41:32 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:41:37 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make minutes
12:41:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
13:54:03 [CarlosI]
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13:54:26 [JohannesK]
JohannesK has joined #er
13:57:25 [JohannesK_]
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14:15:39 [chaals]
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14:17:29 [chaals]
SAZ: Think about test subjects that are an http protocol - e.g. if you are testing serve headers, how do we do that?
14:38:02 [shadi]
[discussion about proposal to have earl:Content and drop WebContent & FileContent -see picture]
14:39:55 [shadi]
SAZ: source of the content is open, context is optional
14:40:30 [shadi]
example 1: for Web content, the source is either the actual response from the server or the URI if don't want to record the full content
14:41:01 [shadi]
the context is the HTTP interaction with the server that was used to retrieve the source
14:41:02 [DanC_lap]
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14:41:13 [DanC_lap]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:41:13 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-41-13
14:41:37 [shadi]
example 2: for file content, the source is either the actual file source or it is the file name
14:42:00 [shadi]
the context is the filename if the source is provided, empty otherwise
14:44:43 [chaals]
chaals has changed the topic to: ERT channel. Face to face meeting - http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2007/02/f2f-agenda
14:46:02 [chaals]
you can make one now
14:48:20 [shadi]
CMN: source property is always a copy of the actual content, leave empty if not recording the actual content
14:48:57 [shadi]
SAZ: i am testing http://www.example.org/mypage.html, don't want to record the page in my report, what do i say?
14:49:16 [shadi]
CMN: don't put a source, put the URI in the context
14:49:41 [shadi]
...the source is the content, the context is information about how you got it
14:50:24 [shadi]
SAZ: in analogy, the same applies to file content
14:51:53 [shadi]
SAZ: should encourage the usage of HTTP vocab for the context, even if not recording the source or the body stuff
14:53:55 [shadi]
axtion: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)
14:54:01 [shadi]
action: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)
14:56:50 [shadi]
RESOLUTION: keep the schema normative and the terms informative (to avoid any discrepancies -in case of inconsistencies, the schema in the spec (appendix A) wins)
15:00:51 [shadi]
action: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent)
15:01:18 [shadi]
SAZ: what if someone wants to define their own assertor?
15:01:37 [shadi]
CMN: subclass foaf:Agent, which can be pretty much anything anyway
15:06:05 [shadi]
SAZ: both earl:Software and earl:Content are not subclasses of earl:TestSubject, still we use them as testsubjects
15:06:27 [shadi]
CMN: does the property earl:subject have earl:TestSubject as its range?
15:06:29 [shadi]
SAZ: yes
15:06:57 [shadi]
CMN: then anything at the end of that property will be parsed as a TestSubject
15:07:25 [shadi]
SAZ: it only has to adhere to any TestSubject restrictions (currently there are actually no restrictions)
15:08:54 [shadi]
action: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types")
15:10:40 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:10:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
15:13:07 [chaals]
agenda+ Using EARL in the GRDDL working group
15:13:26 [chaals]
Topic: Using EARL in the GRDDL working group
15:13:30 [DanC_lap]
I don't have any slides, but I'm happy to skype in and walk thru some web pages and code
15:13:40 [chaals]
you want to show us stuff?
15:14:02 [chaals]
(what is the question we are trying to answer)
15:14:27 [DanC_lap]
dunno what question. this is just an experience report
15:14:40 [chaals]
OK, that woud be great.
15:14:44 [chaals]
wanna skype me?
15:14:52 [chaals]
Or work through IRC..
15:16:31 [chaals]
we are muted...
15:16:41 [shadi]
but we can hear you! :)
15:17:01 [DanC_lap]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
15:17:22 [chaals]
waiting for FF
15:17:28 [chaals]
ah, they got there too :)
15:18:22 [DanC_lap]
a test: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet
15:18:42 [chaals]
2
15:19:24 [DanC_lap]
application/rdf+xml attachment: raptor_earl.rdf
15:19:41 [DanC_lap]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/Makefile
15:19:43 [chaals]
DanC: We have two implementation reports in EARL. The raptor 1 is online
15:20:30 [DanC_lap]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#earl_out
15:20:37 [DanC_lap]
$ python testft.py \
15:20:38 [DanC_lap]
--tester 'dan.rdf#dwc' \
15:20:38 [DanC_lap]
--project 'grddlft.rdf#grddl_py' \
15:20:38 [DanC_lap]
--run your_grddl_impl \
15:20:38 [DanC_lap]
testlist1.rdf >earl_out.rdf
15:20:38 [DanC_lap]
All tests were passed!
15:21:10 [chaals]
DanC: If you tell it about you and the project it gives you EARL...
15:21:20 [DanC_lap]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/earlsum.py
15:21:32 [DanC_lap]
and out comes the table... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
15:23:30 [DanC_lap]
does earl have vocabulary for saying "target AA consists of tests 1 thru 6"?
15:24:10 [shadi]
this is part of a test case description language
15:24:20 [shadi]
yes, cannot tell
15:24:58 [chaals]
CMN: No, we rely on saying "this RDF (== some result for AA) is equivalent to that result (== some result for each of tests 1 through 6)"
15:24:58 [DanC_lap]
yeah...
15:24:59 [DanC_lap]
<earl:TestResult>
15:24:59 [DanC_lap]
<earl:validity rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL/nmg-strawman#pass"/>
15:24:59 [DanC_lap]
</earl:TestResult>
15:25:00 [shadi]
danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel
15:25:12 [chaals]
I had convinced myself that you could do that in OWL, a few years ago.
15:25:27 [DanC_lap]
so perhaps on the TestResult, I could just not put a validity, but put an rdfs comment a la "I don't claim to pass nor fail; I claim the test is broken"
15:26:04 [DanC_lap]
owl doesn't have part/whole as a built-in
15:26:59 [DanC_lap]
to say {a} = {b,c,d} is to say that b=c=d=a
15:27:23 [chaals]
right. Say {a} = {b+c+d}
15:28:27 [chaals]
ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again.
15:29:44 [DanC_lap]
the cost of namespace change goes up over time
15:30:14 [DanC_lap]
it's OK to have a "subject to change without notice" policy around your namespace while you're working on it
15:30:25 [DanC_lap]
or "subject to changes agreed in the ER WG"
15:30:26 [chaals]
yeah, but painful in practice.
15:30:30 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001
15:30:54 [chaals]
ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes.
15:30:57 [DanC_lap]
ok, unless there are any questions; shall I ring off?
15:31:12 [shadi]
danc, see examples of OWL usage
15:31:13 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001
15:31:30 [DanC_lap]
(I just convinced myself of a reasonable way to say "the test is broken")
15:31:54 [chaals]
DanC: The short answer is "it works"
15:31:59 [shadi]
danc, what's wrong with using earl:cannotTell as a result then use dc:description to say the test is broken?
15:32:23 [DanC_lap]
if you coin "cannot tell" or "test materials disputed", then I'll probably use them.
15:32:33 [chaals]
we have cannotTell
15:32:39 [shadi]
danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel
15:32:42 [DanC_lap]
ah! news to me.
15:32:45 [chaals]
but we are unlikely to coin "testDisputed"
15:32:50 [chaals]
IMHO
15:33:21 [shadi]
thanks for experience report and implementation!
15:34:28 [DanC_lap]
re 2004Sep/0001, I should probably take an action, but I won't be around when the action is tracked. I would appreciate a reminder in a week or two.
15:35:16 [shadi]
action: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff
15:38:01 [shadi]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:38:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
16:03:53 [CarlosI_]
CarlosI_ has joined #er
16:19:42 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-actions.rdf :
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Johannes to send proposal to the list [1]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-20-02
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly [2]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-21-26
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name [3]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-14-33
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation [4]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-16-05
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property [5]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-24-33
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide [6]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-52-29
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects) [7]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-04-35
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject [8]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-05-24
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed [9]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-35-00
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff) [10]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-54-01
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent) [11]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-00-51
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types") [12]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-08-54
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again. [13]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-28-27
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes. [14]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-30-54
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff [15]
16:19:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-35-16