IRC log of er on 2007-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:00:16 [RRSAgent]

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10:00:16 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc

10:00:22 [Zakim]

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10:00:26 [chaals]

topic: pointers

10:01:37 [chaals]

If you have a range pointer (and anyway), you need to know whether pointers like linecharpointers refer to a range of one character/byte/etc or to a point just befre/after them (which is conceptually pure and beautiful but seems the wrong choice)

10:19:24 [JohannesK]

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10:19:46 [shadi]

[discussion and refinement of pointers proposal by Johannes]

10:20:02 [shadi]

action: Johannes to send proposal to the list

10:20:22 [CarlosI]

do we need a pointer that points to a resource as a hole not to a part of a resource?, something like a ResourcePointer with just a reference property

10:20:26 [shadi]

scribe: chaals, shadi, JohannesK, CarlosI

10:21:26 [shadi]

action: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly

10:21:42 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make logs world

10:21:46 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make minutes

10:21:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi

11:04:10 [shadi]

Topic: EARL 1.0 Schema

11:04:23 [shadi]

Known Issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/issues

11:05:06 [shadi]

Current WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/

11:05:24 [shadi]

New internal draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/WD-EARL10-Schema-20070222

11:14:33 [chaals]

ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name

11:15:51 [chaals]

Using other RDF (e.g. Dublin Core) to more extensively describe the organisation is recommended.

11:16:05 [chaals]

ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation

11:22:57 [chaals]

RESOLUTION: Drop example 7 - it is as confusing as helpful and we prolly don't really need it anyway.

11:24:33 [chaals]

ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property

11:26:20 [chaals]

RESOLUTION: Change earl:instance to earl:pointer

11:27:31 [chaals]

Should the pointer be restricted

11:28:01 [chaals]

CMN: Don't think so, but recommend using pointer:pointer and making the ponter:reference be the earl:testSubject

11:41:06 [shadi]

CI: what about several test subjects? for example, testing consistent navigation on 10 pages at the same time, how to record 10 test subjects in EARL?

11:41:39 [JohannesK]

<http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/#collections>

11:42:04 [shadi]

SAZ: either earl:TestSubjects, earl:WebContents, or >=1 earl:subject properties per assertion

11:42:24 [shadi]

CI & JK: don't like the latter, prone for missuse

11:50:00 [shadi]

solution: <earl:subject rdf:parseType="collection">

11:50:41 [shadi]

<earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>

11:50:43 [shadi]

<earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>

11:50:45 [shadi]

...

11:50:56 [shadi]

</earl:subject>

11:52:04 [shadi]

RESOLUTION: describing multiple test subjects must be explained in the EARL 1.0 Guide

11:52:29 [shadi]

action: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide

11:57:22 [shadi]

CI: can still be misused, for example to summarize several assertions into one

11:57:44 [shadi]

...can not be checked automatically, must be interpreted by the use case

11:59:53 [shadi]

JK: how about using the dc:hasPart of the TestSubject class (to point to several sub-parts of a test subject)

12:04:04 [shadi]

CI: still have some concerns, need to think about it

12:04:35 [shadi]

action: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects)

12:05:24 [shadi]

action: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject

12:11:06 [Zakim]

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12:30:24 [shadi]

[discussion on earl:info -do we need a more elaborate warnings mechanism?]

12:30:55 [shadi]

general impression: info depends on the test case descriptions

12:31:17 [shadi]

CMN: leave the range of the info open so that people can subclass it or use it differently

12:33:27 [chaals]

restricting it to Literal is a Very Bad Idea™

12:33:32 [shadi]

SAZ: concerned about possible misuse, could add an earl:warning property when the time comes

12:35:00 [shadi]

action: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed

12:40:49 [JibberJim]

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12:41:32 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make logs world

12:41:37 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make minutes

12:41:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi

13:54:03 [CarlosI]

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13:54:26 [JohannesK]

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13:57:25 [JohannesK_]

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14:15:39 [chaals]

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14:17:29 [chaals]

SAZ: Think about test subjects that are an http protocol - e.g. if you are testing serve headers, how do we do that?

14:38:02 [shadi]

[discussion about proposal to have earl:Content and drop WebContent & FileContent -see picture]

14:39:55 [shadi]

SAZ: source of the content is open, context is optional

14:40:30 [shadi]

example 1: for Web content, the source is either the actual response from the server or the URI if don't want to record the full content

14:41:01 [shadi]

the context is the HTTP interaction with the server that was used to retrieve the source

14:41:02 [DanC_lap]

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14:41:13 [DanC_lap]

RRSAgent, pointer?

14:41:13 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-41-13

14:41:37 [shadi]

example 2: for file content, the source is either the actual file source or it is the file name

14:42:00 [shadi]

the context is the filename if the source is provided, empty otherwise

14:44:43 [chaals]

chaals has changed the topic to: ERT channel. Face to face meeting - http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2007/02/f2f-agenda

14:46:02 [chaals]

you can make one now

14:48:20 [shadi]

CMN: source property is always a copy of the actual content, leave empty if not recording the actual content

14:48:57 [shadi]

SAZ: i am testing http://www.example.org/mypage.html, don't want to record the page in my report, what do i say?

14:49:16 [shadi]

CMN: don't put a source, put the URI in the context

14:49:41 [shadi]

...the source is the content, the context is information about how you got it

14:50:24 [shadi]

SAZ: in analogy, the same applies to file content

14:51:53 [shadi]

SAZ: should encourage the usage of HTTP vocab for the context, even if not recording the source or the body stuff

14:53:55 [shadi]

axtion: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)

14:54:01 [shadi]

action: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)

14:56:50 [shadi]

RESOLUTION: keep the schema normative and the terms informative (to avoid any discrepancies -in case of inconsistencies, the schema in the spec (appendix A) wins)

15:00:51 [shadi]

action: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent)

15:01:18 [shadi]

SAZ: what if someone wants to define their own assertor?

15:01:37 [shadi]

CMN: subclass foaf:Agent, which can be pretty much anything anyway

15:06:05 [shadi]

SAZ: both earl:Software and earl:Content are not subclasses of earl:TestSubject, still we use them as testsubjects

15:06:27 [shadi]

CMN: does the property earl:subject have earl:TestSubject as its range?

15:06:29 [shadi]

SAZ: yes

15:06:57 [shadi]

CMN: then anything at the end of that property will be parsed as a TestSubject

15:07:25 [shadi]

SAZ: it only has to adhere to any TestSubject restrictions (currently there are actually no restrictions)

15:08:54 [shadi]

action: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types")

15:10:40 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:10:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi

15:13:07 [chaals]

agenda+ Using EARL in the GRDDL working group

15:13:26 [chaals]

Topic: Using EARL in the GRDDL working group

15:13:30 [DanC_lap]

I don't have any slides, but I'm happy to skype in and walk thru some web pages and code

15:13:40 [chaals]

you want to show us stuff?

15:14:02 [chaals]

(what is the question we are trying to answer)

15:14:27 [DanC_lap]

dunno what question. this is just an experience report

15:14:40 [chaals]

OK, that woud be great.

15:14:44 [chaals]

wanna skype me?

15:14:52 [chaals]

Or work through IRC..

15:16:31 [chaals]

we are muted...

15:16:41 [shadi]

but we can hear you! :)

15:17:01 [DanC_lap]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results

15:17:22 [chaals]

waiting for FF

15:17:28 [chaals]

ah, they got there too :)

15:18:22 [DanC_lap]

a test: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet

15:18:42 [chaals]

2

15:19:24 [DanC_lap]

application/rdf+xml attachment: raptor_earl.rdf

15:19:41 [DanC_lap]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/Makefile

15:19:43 [chaals]

DanC: We have two implementation reports in EARL. The raptor 1 is online

15:20:30 [DanC_lap]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#earl_out

15:20:37 [DanC_lap]

$ python testft.py \

15:20:38 [DanC_lap]

--tester 'dan.rdf#dwc' \

15:20:38 [DanC_lap]

--project 'grddlft.rdf#grddl_py' \

15:20:38 [DanC_lap]

--run your_grddl_impl \

15:20:38 [DanC_lap]

testlist1.rdf >earl_out.rdf

15:20:38 [DanC_lap]

All tests were passed!

15:21:10 [chaals]

DanC: If you tell it about you and the project it gives you EARL...

15:21:20 [DanC_lap]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/earlsum.py

15:21:32 [DanC_lap]

and out comes the table... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results

15:23:30 [DanC_lap]

does earl have vocabulary for saying "target AA consists of tests 1 thru 6"?

15:24:10 [shadi]

this is part of a test case description language

15:24:20 [shadi]

yes, cannot tell

15:24:58 [chaals]

CMN: No, we rely on saying "this RDF (== some result for AA) is equivalent to that result (== some result for each of tests 1 through 6)"

15:24:58 [DanC_lap]

yeah...

15:24:59 [DanC_lap]

<earl:TestResult>

15:24:59 [DanC_lap]

<earl:validity rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL/nmg-strawman#pass"/>

15:24:59 [DanC_lap]

</earl:TestResult>

15:25:00 [shadi]

danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel

15:25:12 [chaals]

I had convinced myself that you could do that in OWL, a few years ago.

15:25:27 [DanC_lap]

so perhaps on the TestResult, I could just not put a validity, but put an rdfs comment a la "I don't claim to pass nor fail; I claim the test is broken"

15:26:04 [DanC_lap]

owl doesn't have part/whole as a built-in

15:26:59 [DanC_lap]

to say {a} = {b,c,d} is to say that b=c=d=a

15:27:23 [chaals]

right. Say {a} = {b+c+d}

15:28:27 [chaals]

ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again.

15:29:44 [DanC_lap]

the cost of namespace change goes up over time

15:30:14 [DanC_lap]

it's OK to have a "subject to change without notice" policy around your namespace while you're working on it

15:30:25 [DanC_lap]

or "subject to changes agreed in the ER WG"

15:30:26 [chaals]

yeah, but painful in practice.

15:30:30 [shadi]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001

15:30:54 [chaals]

ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes.

15:30:57 [DanC_lap]

ok, unless there are any questions; shall I ring off?

15:31:12 [shadi]

danc, see examples of OWL usage

15:31:13 [shadi]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001

15:31:30 [DanC_lap]

(I just convinced myself of a reasonable way to say "the test is broken")

15:31:54 [chaals]

DanC: The short answer is "it works"

15:31:59 [shadi]

danc, what's wrong with using earl:cannotTell as a result then use dc:description to say the test is broken?

15:32:23 [DanC_lap]

if you coin "cannot tell" or "test materials disputed", then I'll probably use them.

15:32:33 [chaals]

we have cannotTell

15:32:39 [shadi]

danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel

15:32:42 [DanC_lap]

ah! news to me.

15:32:45 [chaals]

but we are unlikely to coin "testDisputed"

15:32:50 [chaals]

IMHO

15:33:21 [shadi]

thanks for experience report and implementation!

15:34:28 [DanC_lap]

re 2004Sep/0001, I should probably take an action, but I won't be around when the action is tracked. I would appreciate a reminder in a week or two.

15:35:16 [shadi]

action: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff

15:38:01 [shadi]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:38:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi

16:03:53 [CarlosI_]

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16:19:42 [shadi]

rrsagent, bye

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-actions.rdf :

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Johannes to send proposal to the list [1]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-20-02

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly [2]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-21-26

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name [3]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-14-33

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation [4]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-16-05

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property [5]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-24-33

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide [6]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-52-29

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects) [7]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-04-35

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject [8]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-05-24

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed [9]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-35-00

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff) [10]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-54-01

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent) [11]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-00-51

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types") [12]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-08-54

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again. [13]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-28-27

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes. [14]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-30-54

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff [15]

16:19:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-35-16