09:04:58 RRSAgent has joined #er 09:04:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc 09:05:03 Zakim has joined #er 09:05:05 scribe: chaals 09:05:10 chair: Shadi 09:05:27 Meeting: ERT face to face, feb 2007 09:05:40 Present: Chaals, Johannes, CarlosI, Shadi 09:05:55 Agenda+ HTTP Vocabulary 09:05:57 Agenda+ HTTP Vocabulary 09:06:11 Agenda+ Pointer Vocabulary 09:06:26 Agenda+ EARL Schema (second day, unless Jim doesn't appear) 09:06:37 zakim, next agendum 09:06:39 agendum 1. "HTTP Vocabulary" taken up [from chaals] 09:06:55 http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-HTTP-in-RDF-20061220/ 09:07:07 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/HTTP/issues 09:07:47 SAZ: We have got a fair few comments from various places. Should we do another WD before we publish it as a Note? 09:09:36 SAZ: Issues list... 09:09:44 SAZ hands over to JK 09:10:30 Topic: [ISSUE-001] How to correlate requests and responses? Perhaps having an http:response property in the http:Request class. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092, Tim) 09:10:39 JK: Already talked about this in telecon. 09:11:28 ... think the htp:response approach would be good. There is an issue in EARL because we have a higher-level connection, but to use this outside EARL we should move that here. 09:11:31 CMN: Agree 09:12:06 RESOLUTION: Make http:response part of this vocabulary, so close issue 001 09:12:29 Topic: [ISSUE-002] Requiring base64 since it makes it unusable for XSLT processors. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0094) 09:12:54 Regrets: Daniela 09:13:30 Topic: [ISSUE-003] The HTTP response definition in section 2.2 is missing http:version. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092) 09:13:40 RESOLUTION: Add http:version 09:13:55 Topic: [ISSUE-004] Example 2.2 is missing a http:responseCode. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092) 09:14:31 RESOLUTION: Add http:responseCode (and there should be a version, too) 09:14:43 Topic: [ISSUE-018] Create a StatusCode class and reference it via http:responseCode. (Danny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/0004) 09:14:58 SAZ: Danny Ayers proposes to make a Class of response codes. 09:15:19 JK: They are defined in HTTP 1.1 (RFC 2616), but there may be others possible 09:15:28 SAZ: Does it make sense to have predefined values? 09:15:52 ... you can always subclass them and create your own. 09:15:55 ack me 09:15:55 chaals, you wanted to say yes 09:16:23 CMN: What Shadi said. So long as we don't make it an exclusive list it makes a lot more sense to me that we provide a class that covers known responses. 09:17:54 RESOLUTION: Have a class for response codes listing the defined ones from RFC 2616, but not in a closed list... 09:18:04 ACTION: Johannes edit the spec to make it so. 09:18:36 s/make it so/add an extensible Class enumerating known HTTP codes/ 09:19:02 CI: Sometimes properties have a hypen, sometimes it is camelCase. Are we following a particular style or does this happen by random? 09:19:24 JK: The rule I had was that header properties use the name of the header, e.g. Content-type 09:19:46 ... for other properties which were two words, e.g. Respnse Code, I used camelCase 09:20:01 CI: Makes it a bit unpredictable what the names will be. 09:23:33 SAZ: Should we write this down in a "conventions in this document" section? 09:23:38 CMN: I think we should 09:24:01 JK: BTW I have seen Status Code for Response Code. Do we want to change the name? 09:24:38 SAZ: They use both in the RFC... 09:24:45 CMN: So we should leave it alone.... 09:25:30 ACTION: Johannes add a section on "conventions used in this document" which would include description of how names are formed 09:25:57 Topic: [ISSUE-005] Add '-header' to header property names. (Danny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0117) 09:26:05 JK: I don't think we should do this 09:26:12 CMN: Nor do I 09:26:42 JK: Not sure if we could run into a problem with someone defining a thing that we already use. 09:28:02 SAZ: We can deal with that if it happens... Also don't think we should add -header 09:28:34 ... can make a new namespace to deal with a conflicting name. But I doubt HTTP will change that quickly. 09:28:56 RESOLUTION: We reject the proposal to add -header and close issue 005 09:30:07 Topic: [ISSUE-002] Requiring base64 since it makes it unusable for XSLT processors. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0094) 09:30:31 SAZ: Related to Issues 13 and 16. There was quite a heavy pushback related to this 09:30:42 JK: Because most people think of storing text content and not binary. 09:31:10 ... currently we use a generic approach so we can store everything. But not handy for people processig text-based content, or XML. 09:34:28 CMN: You could use parseTypes for the common text cases, and use where you need to encode binary data, things with wierd angle brackets, or just to annoy people trying to use XSLT... 09:36:26 ... has the probably happy coincidence that two identical files which are in two places on the web can be the same rdf resource and you suddenly know that. 09:37:29 ... e.g. data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAGQAAABkAgMAAAANjH3HAAAADFBMVEX%2F%2F%2F8AAI8A%2FwAAAABMtl%2FaAAAAIXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBHcmFwaGljQ29udmVydGVyIChJbnRlbCl3h%2FoZAAAAMElEQVR4nGIIxQUYRmVGZYaGDAMyEB2VGZUZlRmVGQkyWMCozKgM9WUAAAAA%2F%2F8DACpBXnJ8ZaKcAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC 09:37:47 ... is a little blue square PNG. 09:38:28 JK: This would be a representation of the body, not the body itself. 09:40:48 ... e.g. if your body text came through encoded as Big5, what do you use for an encoding? 09:41:08 ... or where the server did not provide an encoding? 09:42:44 CMN: Why not say that it is UTF-8 unless otherwise declared? 09:42:58 JK: Because you get invalid byte sequences if you try that. 09:43:13 ... think this is a problem. 09:47:19 CMN: So if you have wierd junk, you base-64 encode it to a data: uri, if it is clean XML you drop it in with a parseType. 09:47:44 SAZ: There is a large use case for HTML that is tag soup. We should not assume well-formed XML 09:47:57 ... so should have a method to enforce plain text. 09:49:43 JK: Should we use a different property for text stuff? Additional to always having a base64-encoded body? 09:50:08 CMN: I don't see why. Lots of overhead for little benefit. 09:50:25 JK: It is a different thing. The original stuff is the byte sequence. 09:52:33 SAZ: We could have two types - one for literals/XML, one for base64 09:52:59 CMN: For XML, an XML version is as accurate a representation as a base64 encoding (and more useful) 09:53:35 ... you could make subproperties of body, to have body-b64encoded 09:54:01 SAZ: That would allow you to have both there if you wanted. 09:54:27 JK: Would do it the other way around - body still b64 encoded. 10:12:58 [Discussion about how to deal with character encoding issues...] 10:14:27 CMN: Proposal: You can use data:uri to base64 encode the original byte stream of the body any time you like. You are encouraged, where the body is a literal or XML literal that can be safely represented in the RDF, to include it with a parseType, and if the original character-encoding was different, you must first transcode it to the encoding of the RDF document. 10:32:55 chaals has joined #er 10:33:13 CMN: Complicated proposal, something like the following process: 10:34:15 ... Is it a non-text type? [encode as data: URI] else 10:35:07 ... What is its character encoding? [None / Same as the RDF we are generating: if it is safe to include as a Literal, do so, otherwise data:URI ] 10:35:54 ... else Convert the characters to the encoding of the RDF we are generating, according to the character encoding it claimed to be then 10:36:17 JohannesK_ has joined #er 10:36:31 ... if it is safe to include as a literal, do so, otherwise convert the original byte stream to data: URI 10:37:23 (i.e. character data is always normalised to that of the RDF document, according to the encoding supplied in the HTP response. Data: URIs are always generated from the original byte stream with no transcoding. 10:38:02 JohannesK__ has joined #er 10:38:15 ... where feasible, include as XML, failing which as literal, failing which as data: URI. Being lazy is one reason to claim it is not feasible to include a literal 0 just not a good one) 10:38:28 s/0/-/ 10:39:07 s/HTP/HTTP/ 10:41:07 rrsagent, make log public 10:49:48 JibberJim has joined #er 11:08:14 scribe: JohannesK 11:14:27 RESOLUTION: porposal by chaals accepted (see prose and additional pictures); no cardinality restriction on body property 11:21:11 issue 012: 'RFC822 in XML' draft by Graham Klyne 11:21:37 PROPOSAL: contact Graham and ask him to review HTTP in RDF 11:21:55 RESOLUTION: contact Graham and ask him to review HTTP in RDF 11:22:16 ACTION SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF 11:22:35 ACTION: SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF 11:25:19 issue 017 sounds interesting, chaals could ask Kjetil to write some more about this use case, we'll include this 11:28:55 CMN: issue 011, write more elaborate, if there is time 11:31:04 CI: new use case: reporting usablility testing, user paths through a web site 11:36:18 CI: use cases are clear to us, but not necessarily to 'outsiders' 11:37:24 RESOLUTION: use cases should be elaborated to be more useful 11:38:55 CMN: use case 3: use HTTP vocabulary for tracking in web applications 11:39:38 RESOLUTION: keep the three existing use cases 11:41:34 RESOLUTION: add editor's note for reviewers to let us know about new use cases 11:43:17 ACTION: chaals to ask Kjetil to write more about his use case 11:46:53 ACTION: JK to check for possible changes in RFC 2822 compared to RFC 822 11:47:36 SAZ: issue 014: if there are no substantial changes related to our work, update the reference 11:49:14 SAZ: issue 015: in the beginning we had a separate document for 822 11:50:49 RESOLUTION: separate document 'RFC 2822 in RDF' is out of scope of our work 11:51:26 ACTION: SAZ to explain resolution about issue 015 to Karl 11:56:18 CMN: drop rfc 822 and put the stuff in http namespace 11:56:34 [Proposal: Change the example so it is in the current namespace, using camelCase names we make up] 12:01:47 SAZ: MessageHeader class with fieldName and fieldValue properties in http namespace 12:02:31 SAZ: so drop any reference to RFC (2)822 12:04:52 JibberJim has joined #er 12:05:51 RESOLUTION: in section 4 drop references to RFC 822, and take up terminology from RFC 2616 (MessageHeader class with fieldName and fieldValue properties in http namespace) 12:06:01 rrsagent, make logs world 12:06:06 rrsagent, make minutes 12:06:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi 12:06:19 CarlosV has joined #er 12:06:41 rrsagent, pointer? 12:06:41 See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T12-06-41 12:06:50 rrsagent, make minutes 12:06:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi 12:06:55 that is the trick, chaals 12:12:33 issue 006 12:13:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Jan/0005.html 12:16:25 CMN: we won't create a more sophisticated URI class, if someone wants to create it, fine 12:23:38 I have to go to cafe's to be online, I go to cafe's at lunch time! 12:27:00 JK: we need server/port and requestURI 12:49:13 Lunchtime!!!! 12:54:15 send me Fillet of Iberian Pork to the Cider “New Expresión” 13:35:28 JibberJim has joined #er 14:17:15 CarlosI has joined #er 14:29:46 chaals has joined #er 14:29:50 JohannesK has joined #er 14:30:19 scribe: CarlosI 14:35:09 continue discussion about URI 14:35:37 RESOLUTION: Johannes proposal was accepted (see picture) 14:52:42 [ page 50 of rfc 2616 [[[If client sees that the connection is closed prematurely, 14:52:43 repeat from step 1 until the request is accepted, an error 14:52:43 response is received, or the user becomes impatient and 14:52:43 terminates the retry process. ]]] 14:52:43 ] 15:06:25 RESOLUTION: subtype requestURI into the four subtypes defined by rfc 2616 5.1.2 (*, absoluteURI, abs_path, authority) 15:08:38 RESOLUTION: keep the Connection staff in the same namespace as the http staff 15:09:26 CMN: if somebody comes with a really intelligent Connection class we could adopt it 15:21:11 RESOLUTION: the URI authority property will be connectionAuthority 15:21:58 RESOLUTION: ask for review on the hole Connection staff 15:23:35 RESOLUTION: the current URI property will be dropped in favor of the new Connection staff 15:24:20 ACTION: everybody think about the overall impact of the new Connection staff on EARL 15:26:09 break time 15:52:03 scribe: chaals 15:52:10 Topic: RDF Pointer spec 15:53:06 Draft -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/att-0038/note.html 15:54:16 CI: We should add a scenario for Web Content Labelling - point out which bit of a document is kid-friendly or written in spanish or usable on a mobile phone... 15:55:55 SAZ: Should say that PointerCollection is a subClass of pointer in the text as it does in the schema 15:58:51 CMN: The examples are lovely, but they should not be in 1pt white text 16:01:25 JK: propose to make line lineNumber for clarity 16:01:38 SAZ: Missing whether we start with zero or one. 16:01:52 ... think it should be zero, but it definitely should be specified. 16:03:58 CMN: I think that we should start everything from 1 or everything from zero, rather than some of one and some of the other. 16:04:06 CI: Why is it inconsistent? 16:04:34 [discussion about the legendary discussions lost in the mists of time] 16:06:16 ACTION: Shadi to get a response from Jim on these comments... 16:06:36 RESOLUTION: These are editorial comments, and we expect the editor to answer them one way or the other 16:13:37 CI: Do we want a pointer that has start and end? Or a Range class that has a pointer to the beginning and another one to the end? 16:14:33 CMN: I think we should do this. 16:14:56 JK: There are pointers that identify specific points in the resource. Xpath can point to a range already... 16:15:04 ... or at least a node. 16:15:23 CMN: You should be able to use different types of pointer for the start/end of the range. 16:15:42 JK: You need to know if you have a start or end pointer that covers a node whether the node is included in the range. 16:16:24 CMN: Think in this case that the content should be included. 16:18:13 JK: there is no way to specify range with a LineCharOffset pointer? 16:29:50 JK/CI: How do you define the scope of a Pointer? 16:30:08 ... important because you want to be able to point to a piece that moves, and point within that. 16:30:23 CMN: EARL defines the pointer property to set an initial scope. 16:30:34 ... within that, could you use a range to describe the scope? 16:31:03 CI: This specis not cmplete without EARL. So I think that it should include a way of expressing the scope within which the pointer operates 16:31:31 CMN: Agree. This would enable you to point into a previously described range, where things move around but you can deal with a chunk of it 16:32:44 SAZ: If there is a nice resource, what if the pointers point to another document 16:33:02 CI: In this case the pointer should describe the scope as the same thing that we have already identified as the subject. 16:38:29 JK: There should be some reference property so the pointer can declare the sope within which you use it. 16:41:52 [discussion about what a reference should have as a range] 16:46:55 SAZ: What should it be? 16:53:42 CMN: It should be a resource. It gets to the tricky issue of saying what exactly the resulting pointer/range is, so you can describe how a pointer applies to it. 16:55:07 ... For the case it means you apply the pointer to the thing identified by foo (which may be the body of something you described using the http vocab, or may be a range described by a pointerCollection, or may be your maiden aunt - and then you figure out which pointers still apply). 16:55:51 ... (this is the nasty bit about identifiers being http URIs not *necessarily* meaning that there is something at the end of the URI, that led to us describing the http vocab in the first place) 16:58:16 SAZ: Should we describe the use cases and how they would be handled? 17:07:31 [the problem gets tricky when you refer to a body that uses a data: URI to encode itself] 17:11:45 CMN: You are dealing with something where the only useful pointer we have is a ByteSnippet. Since you happen to have the data in base64, the processing requires magic but it ain't hard. 17:12:13 ... and you can make a nice RDF id to it by saying it is owl:sameAs somethingShort 17:15:59 RESOLUTION: The range of the reference should be an RDF resource - and then we need to add hints about how to use it wisely 17:16:09 SUMMARY OF COMMENTS: 1. Web content labeling use case, 2. PointerCollection is sublclass of Pointer, 3. clarify that line/char properties refer to *numbers* (spell that out in the text of the document), 4. define the start values for counting (see old EARL Schema and minutes for previous decisions), 5. consider a start/end pointer (and determine the repitition impact on the length in the line/char/len pointer), 6. consider ranges also within snippets, 7. add a "refer 17:17:00 Topic: Cardinality 17:17:05 CMN: Leave it out!!!! 17:17:53 SAZ: Oh, and the domain/range should be adusted to make this stand on reference not rely on EARL spec. 17:19:39 SAZ: What do multiple xpointeres mean? 17:19:58 CMN: You can make different ones to point to the same place, for robustness over change to the doc 17:20:41 SAZ: There is a selectorpointer that is only half described... 17:20:48 s/different ones to point/different ones (constructed differently) to point 17:21:34 SAZ: Instance property belongs in earl, too 17:22:25 SAZ: Limit cardinality for linecharthing? 17:24:00 CI: Let's stabilise the schema before we think too hard about cardinality 17:24:17 CI: Would like to have a class that can point to things in several different documents. 17:26:43 ... somethign different between a group of pointers that are just a collection, and a group of pointers that you are using together for some purpose. 17:29:48 SAZ: Can we have a class for this? 17:30:05 CMN: Would like to sleep on it (but think it makes sense at the moment) 17:32:50 SAZ: The HTML pointer is a little under-specified here... 17:33:17 rrsagent, make minutes 17:33:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi 17:33:37 Adjourned! 17:33:51 continue at 10am local time. 17:34:02 (that's 7am Jibberjimtime, I think) 17:41:57 zakim, bye 17:41:57 Zakim has left #er 17:42:01 rrsagent, make minutes 17:42:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi 17:42:05 rrsagent, logs world 17:42:05 I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs world', shadi. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:42:10 rrsagent, bye 17:42:10 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-actions.rdf : 17:42:10 ACTION: Johannes edit the spec to make it so. [1] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T09-18-04 17:42:10 ACTION: Johannes add a section on "conventions used in this document" which would include description of how names are formed [2] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T09-25-30 17:42:10 ACTION: SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF [3] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-22-35 17:42:10 ACTION: chaals to ask Kjetil to write more about his use case [4] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-43-17 17:42:10 ACTION: JK to check for possible changes in RFC 2822 compared to RFC 822 [5] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-46-53 17:42:10 ACTION: SAZ to explain resolution about issue 015 to Karl [6] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-51-26 17:42:10 ACTION: everybody think about the overall impact of the new Connection staff on EARL [7] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T15-24-20 17:42:10 ACTION: Shadi to get a response from Jim on these comments... [8] 17:42:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T16-06-16