IRC log of er on 2007-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:04:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #er
09:04:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc
09:05:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #er
09:05:05 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
09:05:10 [chaals]
chair: Shadi
09:05:27 [chaals]
Meeting: ERT face to face, feb 2007
09:05:40 [chaals]
Present: Chaals, Johannes, CarlosI, Shadi
09:05:55 [chaals]
Agenda+ HTTP Vocabulary
09:05:57 [chaals]
Agenda+ HTTP Vocabulary
09:06:11 [chaals]
Agenda+ Pointer Vocabulary
09:06:26 [chaals]
Agenda+ EARL Schema (second day, unless Jim doesn't appear)
09:06:37 [chaals]
zakim, next agendum
09:06:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "HTTP Vocabulary" taken up [from chaals]
09:06:55 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-HTTP-in-RDF-20061220/
09:07:07 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/HTTP/issues
09:07:47 [chaals]
SAZ: We have got a fair few comments from various places. Should we do another WD before we publish it as a Note?
09:09:36 [chaals]
SAZ: Issues list...
09:09:44 [chaals]
SAZ hands over to JK
09:10:30 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-001] How to correlate requests and responses? Perhaps having an http:response property in the http:Request class. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092, Tim)
09:10:39 [chaals]
JK: Already talked about this in telecon.
09:11:28 [chaals]
... think the htp:response approach would be good. There is an issue in EARL because we have a higher-level connection, but to use this outside EARL we should move that here.
09:11:31 [chaals]
CMN: Agree
09:12:06 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Make http:response part of this vocabulary, so close issue 001
09:12:29 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-002] Requiring base64 since it makes it unusable for XSLT processors. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0094)
09:12:54 [chaals]
Regrets: Daniela
09:13:30 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-003] The HTTP response definition in section 2.2 is missing http:version. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092)
09:13:40 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Add http:version
09:13:55 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-004] Example 2.2 is missing a http:responseCode. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0092)
09:14:31 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Add http:responseCode (and there should be a version, too)
09:14:43 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-018] Create a StatusCode class and reference it via http:responseCode. (Danny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/0004)
09:14:58 [chaals]
SAZ: Danny Ayers proposes to make a Class of response codes.
09:15:19 [chaals]
JK: They are defined in HTTP 1.1 (RFC 2616), but there may be others possible
09:15:28 [chaals]
SAZ: Does it make sense to have predefined values?
09:15:52 [chaals]
... you can always subclass them and create your own.
09:15:55 [chaals]
ack me
09:15:55 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say yes
09:16:23 [chaals]
CMN: What Shadi said. So long as we don't make it an exclusive list it makes a lot more sense to me that we provide a class that covers known responses.
09:17:54 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Have a class for response codes listing the defined ones from RFC 2616, but not in a closed list...
09:18:04 [chaals]
ACTION: Johannes edit the spec to make it so.
09:18:36 [chaals]
s/make it so/add an extensible Class enumerating known HTTP codes/
09:19:02 [chaals]
CI: Sometimes properties have a hypen, sometimes it is camelCase. Are we following a particular style or does this happen by random?
09:19:24 [chaals]
JK: The rule I had was that header properties use the name of the header, e.g. Content-type
09:19:46 [chaals]
... for other properties which were two words, e.g. Respnse Code, I used camelCase
09:20:01 [chaals]
CI: Makes it a bit unpredictable what the names will be.
09:23:33 [chaals]
SAZ: Should we write this down in a "conventions in this document" section?
09:23:38 [chaals]
CMN: I think we should
09:24:01 [chaals]
JK: BTW I have seen Status Code for Response Code. Do we want to change the name?
09:24:38 [chaals]
SAZ: They use both in the RFC...
09:24:45 [chaals]
CMN: So we should leave it alone....
09:25:30 [chaals]
ACTION: Johannes add a section on "conventions used in this document" which would include description of how names are formed
09:25:57 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-005] Add '-header' to header property names. (Danny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0117)
09:26:05 [chaals]
JK: I don't think we should do this
09:26:12 [chaals]
CMN: Nor do I
09:26:42 [chaals]
JK: Not sure if we could run into a problem with someone defining a thing that we already use.
09:28:02 [chaals]
SAZ: We can deal with that if it happens... Also don't think we should add -header
09:28:34 [chaals]
... can make a new namespace to deal with a conflicting name. But I doubt HTTP will change that quickly.
09:28:56 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: We reject the proposal to add -header and close issue 005
09:30:07 [chaals]
Topic: [ISSUE-002] Requiring base64 since it makes it unusable for XSLT processors. (Philippe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Dec/0094)
09:30:31 [chaals]
SAZ: Related to Issues 13 and 16. There was quite a heavy pushback related to this
09:30:42 [chaals]
JK: Because most people think of storing text content and not binary.
09:31:10 [chaals]
... currently we use a generic approach so we can store everything. But not handy for people processig text-based content, or XML.
09:34:28 [chaals]
CMN: You could use parseTypes for the common text cases, and use <h:body r:resource="data:....."/> where you need to encode binary data, things with wierd angle brackets, or just to annoy people trying to use XSLT...
09:36:26 [chaals]
... has the probably happy coincidence that two identical files which are in two places on the web can be the same rdf resource and you suddenly know that.
09:37:29 [chaals]
... e.g. data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAGQAAABkAgMAAAANjH3HAAAADFBMVEX%2F%2F%2F8AAI8A%2FwAAAABMtl%2FaAAAAIXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBHcmFwaGljQ29udmVydGVyIChJbnRlbCl3h%2FoZAAAAMElEQVR4nGIIxQUYRmVGZYaGDAMyEB2VGZUZlRmVGQkyWMCozKgM9WUAAAAA%2F%2F8DACpBXnJ8ZaKcAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
09:37:47 [chaals]
... is a little blue square PNG.
09:38:28 [chaals]
JK: This would be a representation of the body, not the body itself.
09:40:48 [chaals]
... e.g. if your body text came through encoded as Big5, what do you use for an encoding?
09:41:08 [chaals]
... or where the server did not provide an encoding?
09:42:44 [chaals]
CMN: Why not say that it is UTF-8 unless otherwise declared?
09:42:58 [chaals]
JK: Because you get invalid byte sequences if you try that.
09:43:13 [chaals]
... think this is a problem.
09:47:19 [chaals]
CMN: So if you have wierd junk, you base-64 encode it to a data: uri, if it is clean XML you drop it in with a parseType.
09:47:44 [chaals]
SAZ: There is a large use case for HTML that is tag soup. We should not assume well-formed XML
09:47:57 [chaals]
... so should have a method to enforce plain text.
09:49:43 [chaals]
JK: Should we use a different property for text stuff? Additional to always having a base64-encoded body?
09:50:08 [chaals]
CMN: I don't see why. Lots of overhead for little benefit.
09:50:25 [chaals]
JK: It is a different thing. The original stuff is the byte sequence.
09:52:33 [chaals]
SAZ: We could have two types - one for literals/XML, one for base64
09:52:59 [chaals]
CMN: For XML, an XML version is as accurate a representation as a base64 encoding (and more useful)
09:53:35 [chaals]
... you could make subproperties of body, to have body-b64encoded
09:54:01 [chaals]
SAZ: That would allow you to have both there if you wanted.
09:54:27 [chaals]
JK: Would do it the other way around - body still b64 encoded.
10:12:58 [chaals]
[Discussion about how to deal with character encoding issues...]
10:14:27 [chaals]
CMN: Proposal: You can use data:uri to base64 encode the original byte stream of the body any time you like. You are encouraged, where the body is a literal or XML literal that can be safely represented in the RDF, to include it with a parseType, and if the original character-encoding was different, you must first transcode it to the encoding of the RDF document.
10:32:55 [chaals]
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10:33:13 [chaals]
CMN: Complicated proposal, something like the following process:
10:34:15 [chaals]
... Is it a non-text type? [encode as data: URI] else
10:35:07 [chaals]
... What is its character encoding? [None / Same as the RDF we are generating: if it is safe to include as a Literal, do so, otherwise data:URI ]
10:35:54 [chaals]
... else Convert the characters to the encoding of the RDF we are generating, according to the character encoding it claimed to be then
10:36:17 [JohannesK_]
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10:36:31 [chaals]
... if it is safe to include as a literal, do so, otherwise convert the original byte stream to data: URI
10:37:23 [chaals]
(i.e. character data is always normalised to that of the RDF document, according to the encoding supplied in the HTP response. Data: URIs are always generated from the original byte stream with no transcoding.
10:38:02 [JohannesK__]
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10:38:15 [chaals]
... where feasible, include as XML, failing which as literal, failing which as data: URI. Being lazy is one reason to claim it is not feasible to include a literal 0 just not a good one)
10:38:28 [chaals]
s/0/-/
10:39:07 [chaals]
s/HTP/HTTP/
10:41:07 [chaals]
rrsagent, make log public
10:49:48 [JibberJim]
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11:08:14 [JohannesK]
scribe: JohannesK
11:14:27 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: porposal by chaals accepted (see prose and additional pictures); no cardinality restriction on body property
11:21:11 [JohannesK]
issue 012: 'RFC822 in XML' draft by Graham Klyne
11:21:37 [JohannesK]
PROPOSAL: contact Graham and ask him to review HTTP in RDF
11:21:55 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: contact Graham and ask him to review HTTP in RDF
11:22:16 [JohannesK]
ACTION SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF
11:22:35 [JohannesK]
ACTION: SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF
11:25:19 [JohannesK]
issue 017 sounds interesting, chaals could ask Kjetil to write some more about this use case, we'll include this
11:28:55 [JohannesK]
CMN: issue 011, write more elaborate, if there is time
11:31:04 [JohannesK]
CI: new use case: reporting usablility testing, user paths through a web site
11:36:18 [JohannesK]
CI: use cases are clear to us, but not necessarily to 'outsiders'
11:37:24 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: use cases should be elaborated to be more useful
11:38:55 [JohannesK]
CMN: use case 3: use HTTP vocabulary for tracking in web applications
11:39:38 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: keep the three existing use cases
11:41:34 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: add editor's note for reviewers to let us know about new use cases
11:43:17 [JohannesK]
ACTION: chaals to ask Kjetil to write more about his use case
11:46:53 [JohannesK]
ACTION: JK to check for possible changes in RFC 2822 compared to RFC 822
11:47:36 [JohannesK]
SAZ: issue 014: if there are no substantial changes related to our work, update the reference
11:49:14 [JohannesK]
SAZ: issue 015: in the beginning we had a separate document for 822
11:50:49 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: separate document 'RFC 2822 in RDF' is out of scope of our work
11:51:26 [JohannesK]
ACTION: SAZ to explain resolution about issue 015 to Karl
11:56:18 [JohannesK]
CMN: drop rfc 822 and put the stuff in http namespace
11:56:34 [chaals]
[Proposal: Change the example so it is in the current namespace, using camelCase names we make up]
12:01:47 [JohannesK]
SAZ: MessageHeader class with fieldName and fieldValue properties in http namespace
12:02:31 [JohannesK]
SAZ: so drop any reference to RFC (2)822
12:04:52 [JibberJim]
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12:05:51 [JohannesK]
RESOLUTION: in section 4 drop references to RFC 822, and take up terminology from RFC 2616 (MessageHeader class with fieldName and fieldValue properties in http namespace)
12:06:01 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
12:06:06 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:06:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi
12:06:19 [CarlosV]
CarlosV has joined #er
12:06:41 [shadi]
rrsagent, pointer?
12:06:41 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T12-06-41
12:06:50 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:06:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi
12:06:55 [CarlosV]
that is the trick, chaals
12:12:33 [JohannesK]
issue 006
12:13:49 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Jan/0005.html
12:16:25 [JohannesK]
CMN: we won't create a more sophisticated URI class, if someone wants to create it, fine
12:23:38 [JibberJim]
I have to go to cafe's to be online, I go to cafe's at lunch time!
12:27:00 [JohannesK]
JK: we need server/port and requestURI
12:49:13 [chaals]
Lunchtime!!!!
12:54:15 [CarlosV]
send me Fillet of Iberian Pork to the Cider “New Expresión”
13:35:28 [JibberJim]
JibberJim has joined #er
14:17:15 [CarlosI]
CarlosI has joined #er
14:29:46 [chaals]
chaals has joined #er
14:29:50 [JohannesK]
JohannesK has joined #er
14:30:19 [chaals]
scribe: CarlosI
14:35:09 [CarlosI]
continue discussion about URI
14:35:37 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: Johannes proposal was accepted (see picture)
14:52:42 [chaals]
[ page 50 of rfc 2616 [[[If client sees that the connection is closed prematurely,
14:52:43 [chaals]
repeat from step 1 until the request is accepted, an error
14:52:43 [chaals]
response is received, or the user becomes impatient and
14:52:43 [chaals]
terminates the retry process. ]]]
14:52:43 [chaals]
]
15:06:25 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: subtype requestURI into the four subtypes defined by rfc 2616 5.1.2 (*, absoluteURI, abs_path, authority)
15:08:38 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: keep the Connection staff in the same namespace as the http staff
15:09:26 [CarlosI]
CMN: if somebody comes with a really intelligent Connection class we could adopt it
15:21:11 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: the URI authority property will be connectionAuthority
15:21:58 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: ask for review on the hole Connection staff
15:23:35 [CarlosI]
RESOLUTION: the current URI property will be dropped in favor of the new Connection staff
15:24:20 [CarlosI]
ACTION: everybody think about the overall impact of the new Connection staff on EARL
15:26:09 [CarlosI]
break time
15:52:03 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
15:52:10 [chaals]
Topic: RDF Pointer spec
15:53:06 [chaals]
Draft -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/att-0038/note.html
15:54:16 [chaals]
CI: We should add a scenario for Web Content Labelling - point out which bit of a document is kid-friendly or written in spanish or usable on a mobile phone...
15:55:55 [chaals]
SAZ: Should say that PointerCollection is a subClass of pointer in the text as it does in the schema
15:58:51 [chaals]
CMN: The examples are lovely, but they should not be in 1pt white text
16:01:25 [chaals]
JK: propose to make line lineNumber for clarity
16:01:38 [chaals]
SAZ: Missing whether we start with zero or one.
16:01:52 [chaals]
... think it should be zero, but it definitely should be specified.
16:03:58 [chaals]
CMN: I think that we should start everything from 1 or everything from zero, rather than some of one and some of the other.
16:04:06 [chaals]
CI: Why is it inconsistent?
16:04:34 [chaals]
[discussion about the legendary discussions lost in the mists of time]
16:06:16 [chaals]
ACTION: Shadi to get a response from Jim on these comments...
16:06:36 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: These are editorial comments, and we expect the editor to answer them one way or the other
16:13:37 [chaals]
CI: Do we want a pointer that has start and end? Or a Range class that has a pointer to the beginning and another one to the end?
16:14:33 [chaals]
CMN: I think we should do this.
16:14:56 [chaals]
JK: There are pointers that identify specific points in the resource. Xpath can point to a range already...
16:15:04 [chaals]
... or at least a node.
16:15:23 [chaals]
CMN: You should be able to use different types of pointer for the start/end of the range.
16:15:42 [chaals]
JK: You need to know if you have a start or end pointer that covers a node whether the node is included in the range.
16:16:24 [chaals]
CMN: Think in this case that the content should be included.
16:18:13 [chaals]
JK: there is no way to specify range with a LineCharOffset pointer?
16:29:50 [chaals]
JK/CI: How do you define the scope of a Pointer?
16:30:08 [chaals]
... important because you want to be able to point to a piece that moves, and point within that.
16:30:23 [chaals]
CMN: EARL defines the pointer property to set an initial scope.
16:30:34 [chaals]
... within that, could you use a range to describe the scope?
16:31:03 [chaals]
CI: This specis not cmplete without EARL. So I think that it should include a way of expressing the scope within which the pointer operates
16:31:31 [chaals]
CMN: Agree. This would enable you to point into a previously described range, where things move around but you can deal with a chunk of it
16:32:44 [chaals]
SAZ: If there is a nice resource, what if the pointers point to another document
16:33:02 [chaals]
CI: In this case the pointer should describe the scope as the same thing that we have already identified as the subject.
16:38:29 [chaals]
JK: There should be some reference property so the pointer can declare the sope within which you use it.
16:41:52 [chaals]
[discussion about what a reference should have as a range]
16:46:55 [chaals]
SAZ: What should it be?
16:53:42 [chaals]
CMN: It should be a resource. It gets to the tricky issue of saying what exactly the resulting pointer/range is, so you can describe how a pointer applies to it.
16:55:07 [chaals]
... For the case <reference r:resource="foo"/> it means you apply the pointer to the thing identified by foo (which may be the body of something you described using the http vocab, or may be a range described by a pointerCollection, or may be your maiden aunt - and then you figure out which pointers still apply).
16:55:51 [chaals]
... (this is the nasty bit about identifiers being http URIs not *necessarily* meaning that there is something at the end of the URI, that led to us describing the http vocab in the first place)
16:58:16 [chaals]
SAZ: Should we describe the use cases and how they would be handled?
17:07:31 [chaals]
[the problem gets tricky when you refer to a body that uses a data: URI to encode itself]
17:11:45 [chaals]
CMN: You are dealing with something where the only useful pointer we have is a ByteSnippet. Since you happen to have the data in base64, the processing requires magic but it ain't hard.
17:12:13 [chaals]
... and you can make a nice RDF id to it by saying it is owl:sameAs somethingShort
17:15:59 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: The range of the reference should be an RDF resource - and then we need to add hints about how to use it wisely
17:16:09 [shadi]
SUMMARY OF COMMENTS: 1. Web content labeling use case, 2. PointerCollection is sublclass of Pointer, 3. clarify that line/char properties refer to *numbers* (spell that out in the text of the document), 4. define the start values for counting (see old EARL Schema and minutes for previous decisions), 5. consider a start/end pointer (and determine the repitition impact on the length in the line/char/len pointer), 6. consider ranges also within snippets, 7. add a "refer
17:17:00 [chaals]
Topic: Cardinality
17:17:05 [chaals]
CMN: Leave it out!!!!
17:17:53 [chaals]
SAZ: Oh, and the domain/range should be adusted to make this stand on reference not rely on EARL spec.
17:19:39 [chaals]
SAZ: What do multiple xpointeres mean?
17:19:58 [chaals]
CMN: You can make different ones to point to the same place, for robustness over change to the doc
17:20:41 [chaals]
SAZ: There is a selectorpointer that is only half described...
17:20:48 [shadi]
s/different ones to point/different ones (constructed differently) to point
17:21:34 [chaals]
SAZ: Instance property belongs in earl, too
17:22:25 [chaals]
SAZ: Limit cardinality for linecharthing?
17:24:00 [chaals]
CI: Let's stabilise the schema before we think too hard about cardinality
17:24:17 [chaals]
CI: Would like to have a class that can point to things in several different documents.
17:26:43 [chaals]
... somethign different between a group of pointers that are just a collection, and a group of pointers that you are using together for some purpose.
17:29:48 [chaals]
SAZ: Can we have a class for this?
17:30:05 [chaals]
CMN: Would like to sleep on it (but think it makes sense at the moment)
17:32:50 [chaals]
SAZ: The HTML pointer is a little under-specified here...
17:33:17 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:33:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi
17:33:37 [chaals]
Adjourned!
17:33:51 [chaals]
continue at 10am local time.
17:34:02 [chaals]
(that's 7am Jibberjimtime, I think)
17:41:57 [shadi]
zakim, bye
17:41:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #er
17:42:01 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:42:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-minutes.html shadi
17:42:05 [shadi]
rrsagent, logs world
17:42:05 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs world', shadi. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:42:10 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-actions.rdf :
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Johannes edit the spec to make it so. [1]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T09-18-04
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Johannes add a section on "conventions used in this document" which would include description of how names are formed [2]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T09-25-30
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ to contact Graham Klyne to review HTTP in RDF [3]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-22-35
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chaals to ask Kjetil to write more about his use case [4]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-43-17
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JK to check for possible changes in RFC 2822 compared to RFC 822 [5]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-46-53
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SAZ to explain resolution about issue 015 to Karl [6]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T11-51-26
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: everybody think about the overall impact of the new Connection staff on EARL [7]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T15-24-20
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to get a response from Jim on these comments... [8]
17:42:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/22-er-irc#T16-06-16