IRC log of tsdtf on 2007-02-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:31:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tsdtf
13:31:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:31:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tsdtf
13:32:04 [shadi]
zakim, this will be tsd
13:32:04 [Zakim]
ok, shadi, I see WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM already started
13:32:12 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:32:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Daniela_Ortner, +0321632aaaa
13:32:41 [Zakim]
13:32:49 [Christophe]
zakim, +321632 is Christophe_Strobbe
13:32:49 [Zakim]
sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632'
13:32:53 [CarlosV]
CarlosV has joined #tsdtf
13:32:59 [Christophe]
zakim, 321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:32:59 [Zakim]
sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '321632aaaa'
13:33:09 [Christophe]
zakim, +321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:09 [Zakim]
sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632aaaa'
13:33:26 [Christophe]
zakim, 0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:26 [Zakim]
sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '0321632aaaa'
13:33:33 [Christophe]
zakim, +0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:33 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe; got it
13:33:50 [CarlosI]
CarlosI has joined #tsdtf
13:33:51 [Zakim]
13:34:24 [Christophe]
zakim, Klaus is Carlos_Velasco
13:34:24 [Zakim]
+Carlos_Velasco; got it
13:34:26 [CarlosV]
zakim, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas is CarlosV
13:34:26 [Zakim]
sorry, CarlosV, I do not recognize a party named 'Klaus/Johannes/Thomas'
13:34:48 [Zakim]
13:35:16 [Zakim]
13:35:32 [Christophe]
zakim, [CTIC] is CarlosI
13:35:32 [Zakim]
+CarlosI; got it
13:38:03 [MichaelC]
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13:39:05 [Zakim]
13:41:06 [Christophe]
Locations in TCDL: summary:
13:41:10 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:41:10 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:41:56 [shadi]
Topic: Locations in TCDL
13:42:05 [shadi]
agenda+ Locations in TCDL
13:42:21 [shadi]
agenda+ TSD TF Wiki
13:42:38 [shadi]
agenda+ Recommended server side scriptings
13:42:47 [shadi]
meeting: TSD TF
13:42:57 [shadi]
chair: CarlosV, Christophe
13:42:58 [MichaelC]
scribeNick: MichaelC
13:43:02 [MichaelC]
scribe: Michael_Cooper
13:43:04 [shadi]
scribe: Michael
13:43:39 [shadi]
13:43:42 [MichaelC]
take up item 1
13:44:51 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
13:44:51 [Zakim]
Shadi should no longer be muted
13:45:52 [MichaelC]
cv: server side vs client side scripting
13:46:20 [MichaelC]
... generally tools view generated code
13:47:34 [MichaelC]
saz: when we say a test fails, what do we point to as the trigger for the failure?
13:47:51 [MichaelC]
... simple case, image missing alt, can point to the image and say it's missing alt
13:48:23 [MichaelC]
... in scripting, do we point to raw, unprocessed, server-side script page, or to generated code?
13:49:51 [MichaelC]
... Christophe has posted about this
13:50:29 [MichaelC]
cs: generated code depends on user input; error could be in different places depending on input
13:50:49 [MichaelC]
... so suggest location pointer into generated code, with information about the input used
13:51:22 [MichaelC]
... in cases with no user input, could use HTTP-RDF to build up the appropriate headers
13:51:31 [MichaelC]
cv: also applies to cases with user input
13:51:40 [MichaelC]
saz: focus on what we need to point to
13:51:46 [MichaelC]
13:53:54 [MichaelC]
mc: asks who the pointer is for - author or evaluator - and can we count on having access to server-side code at both evaluation and report time?
13:54:32 [MichaelC]
... also not sure there's always a single place in server-side code where the error caused
13:54:34 [MichaelC]
ack m
13:55:26 [MichaelC]
cs: evaluators also audiences of our test suite
13:55:36 [MichaelC]
mc: so we're only talking about being able to point into our test suite?
13:56:56 [MichaelC]
... in that case maybe desirable to point to that, but unsure we need such a rich means of expression
13:57:56 [MichaelC]
saz: also depends on test procedure
13:58:38 [MichaelC]
... in some cases, test procedure just looking at the HTML seen by the browser
13:59:00 [MichaelC]
... if we had, e.g., PHP test procedures, then we might want server-side pointers
13:59:20 [MichaelC]
... also raise question of whether there is something we can point to in all cases
13:59:36 [MichaelC]
cv: HTTP-RDF provides most of the expression we need
13:59:51 [MichaelC]
... we're working mainly with generated code
14:00:21 [MichaelC]
saz: setting aside metadata and request headers and focusing just on pointers
14:00:49 [MichaelC]
... suggest default is to point to the generated content, if there's something to point to
14:01:13 [MichaelC]
ci: question still if there's client-side script
14:01:19 [MichaelC]
... so need more complete criteria
14:01:47 [MichaelC]
cv: but when, e.g., JavaScript changes DOM, it's the DOM you analyze
14:02:04 [MichaelC]
... don't typically track the place in the function where element generated
14:02:29 [Zakim]
14:03:03 [MichaelC]
mc: sounds like, server-side or client-side, it's the results of the script we have to point to
14:03:54 [CarlosV]
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14:04:01 [Tim]
Tim has joined #tsdtf
14:04:05 [MichaelC]
cv: we don't have way to point to script functions etc.
14:04:21 [MichaelC]
saz: we track the exchange - user input and system output
14:04:33 [MichaelC]
... and determine if there are problems in the system output (generated code)
14:05:13 [MichaelC]
ci: this line of reason works if you use DOM-based scripting
14:08:14 [MichaelC]
mc: non DOM scripting is document.write?
14:08:18 [MichaelC]
cv: that's stil DOM
14:08:22 [MichaelC]
ci: was thinking of it as not
14:09:34 [MichaelC]
mc: you still get generated content, even if not referenceable by XPath
14:09:41 [MichaelC]
cs: how do you reference?
14:09:46 [MichaelC]
mc: character offset?
14:10:12 [MichaelC]
cv: what about alerts? need to refer to a generated element to reference
14:10:52 [MichaelC]
saz: also need to record user input in a different way for client-side input
14:11:03 [MichaelC]
... HTTP-RDF doesn't express client-side input
14:11:14 [MichaelC]
cs: use ExpertGuidance element
14:11:59 [MichaelC]
mc: for alerts, suggest using element that triggered it to appear
14:12:49 [MichaelC]
... for user input, should be expressable in name-value pairs
14:13:05 [MichaelC]
cv: also have to account for UI events
14:13:18 [MichaelC]
... ExpertGuidance for that
14:14:52 [MichaelC]
mc: can record user input into a script for playback
14:15:01 [MichaelC]
... though that's not all that usable except for playback
14:15:46 [MichaelC]
cs: e.g., for forms, you don't want something to play back, you want to provide instructions on what to put into form
14:16:19 [MichaelC]
mc: agree, script might not be useful, maybe store name-value for form inputs and ExpertGuidance for other relevant actions
14:17:11 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: reference generated code whenever possible; use ExpertGuidance for client-side user input; user HTTP-RDF for server-side user input
14:18:43 [MichaelC]
next item
14:19:01 [Christophe]
14:19:04 [MichaelC]
14:20:45 [MichaelC]
cs: review templates available in wiki for group to review
14:20:58 [shadi]
14:21:08 [shadi]
14:21:16 [shadi]
14:23:00 [shadi]
14:24:18 [MichaelC]
mc: suggest for content review template, use "how does test sample address technique" rather than "does it" to prompt more thorough review
14:24:32 [shadi]
14:24:38 [Tim]
I agree with MC
14:24:52 [MichaelC]
saz: have open action to update wording from checklist
14:25:01 [MichaelC]
but we don't have more detail there
14:27:05 [MichaelC]
... should we work on checklist, or review sample to test process?
14:27:26 [MichaelC]
mc: think we need to run it through a practice, then discover weaknesses and port back to checklist as needed
14:28:04 [MichaelC]
... each iteration do on different test cases so we don't lose value by familiarity
14:28:11 [MichaelC]
cs: have some test cases available now to do this
14:28:36 [MichaelC]
mc: suggest some people be reviewers, and some be "reviewees" who receive reviews without having looked at test case themselves
14:29:41 [MichaelC]
cv: would like to finish refining the wording before we take this to experimental implementation
14:30:27 [MichaelC]
saz: as we modify process, will update both checklist and templates
14:31:25 [MichaelC]
cv: question from Tim about multiple reviews
14:31:51 [MichaelC]
tb: keeping track of who's reviewing what
14:31:58 [MichaelC]
saz: that's what status list is for
14:32:23 [MichaelC]
... that links test with current reviewer
14:32:55 [MichaelC]
tb: could you have more than one reviewer working a particular aspect at one time?
14:33:19 [MichaelC]
saz: according to our process, it's sequential with each step done by a single person
14:35:29 [MichaelC]
saz: suggest organizing templates as table
14:37:18 [MichaelC]
action: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist
14:37:29 [MichaelC]
action: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion
14:37:36 [Zakim]
14:37:37 [Zakim]
14:37:41 [Zakim]
14:37:42 [Zakim]
14:37:43 [Zakim]
14:37:48 [Zakim]
14:37:49 [Zakim]
14:37:57 [Zakim]
14:37:58 [Zakim]
WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has ended
14:37:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were Daniela_Ortner, Shadi, Christophe_Strobbe, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, Carlos_Velasco, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, CarlosI, Cooper, Tim_Boland
14:38:20 [shadi]
zakim, bye
14:38:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tsdtf
14:38:27 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:38:31 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
14:38:32 [Vangelis]
Vangelis has left #tsdtf
14:38:33 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:38:39 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
14:38:39 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
14:38:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist [1]
14:38:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:38:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion [2]
14:38:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in