13:31:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tsdtf
13:31:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc
13:31:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tsdtf
13:32:04 <shadi> zakim, this will be tsd
13:32:04 <Zakim> ok, shadi, I see WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM already started
13:32:12 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:32:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Daniela_Ortner, +0321632aaaa
13:32:41 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:32:49 <Christophe> zakim, +321632 is Christophe_Strobbe
13:32:49 <Zakim> sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632'
13:32:53 <CarlosV> CarlosV has joined #tsdtf
13:32:59 <Christophe> zakim, 321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:32:59 <Zakim> sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '321632aaaa'
13:33:09 <Christophe> zakim, +321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:09 <Zakim> sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632aaaa'
13:33:26 <Christophe> zakim, 0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:26 <Zakim> sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '0321632aaaa'
13:33:33 <Christophe> zakim, +0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe
13:33:33 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe; got it
13:33:50 <CarlosI> CarlosI has joined #tsdtf
13:33:51 <Zakim> +Klaus/Johannes/Thomas
13:34:24 <Christophe> zakim, Klaus is Carlos_Velasco
13:34:24 <Zakim> +Carlos_Velasco; got it
13:34:26 <CarlosV> zakim, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas is CarlosV
13:34:26 <Zakim> sorry, CarlosV, I do not recognize a party named 'Klaus/Johannes/Thomas'
13:34:48 <Zakim> +Vangelis_Karkaletsis
13:35:16 <Zakim> +[CTIC]
13:35:32 <Christophe> zakim, [CTIC] is CarlosI
13:35:32 <Zakim> +CarlosI; got it
13:38:03 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #tsdtf
13:39:05 <Zakim> +Cooper
13:41:06 <Christophe> Locations in TCDL: summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0004.html
13:41:10 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:41:10 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:41:56 <shadi> Topic: Locations in TCDL
13:42:05 <shadi> agenda+ Locations in TCDL
13:42:21 <shadi> agenda+ TSD TF Wiki
13:42:38 <shadi> agenda+ Recommended server side scriptings
13:42:47 <shadi> meeting: TSD TF
13:42:57 <shadi> chair: CarlosV, Christophe
13:42:58 <MichaelC> scribeNick: MichaelC
13:43:02 <MichaelC> scribe: Michael_Cooper
13:43:04 <shadi> scribe: Michael
13:43:39 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0010.html
13:43:42 <MichaelC> take up item 1
13:44:51 <shadi> zakim, unmute me
13:44:51 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
13:45:52 <MichaelC> cv: server side vs client side scripting
13:46:20 <MichaelC> ... generally tools view generated code
13:47:34 <MichaelC> saz: when we say a test fails, what do we point to as the trigger for the failure?
13:47:51 <MichaelC> ... simple case, image missing alt, can point to the image and say it's missing alt
13:48:23 <MichaelC> ... in scripting, do we point to raw, unprocessed, server-side script page, or to generated code?
13:49:51 <MichaelC> ... Christophe has posted about this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0004.html
13:50:29 <MichaelC> cs: generated code depends on user input; error could be in different places depending on input
13:50:49 <MichaelC> ... so suggest location pointer into generated code, with information about the input used
13:51:22 <MichaelC> ... in cases with no user input, could use HTTP-RDF to build up the appropriate headers
13:51:31 <MichaelC> cv: also applies to cases with user input
13:51:40 <MichaelC> saz: focus on what we need to point to
13:51:46 <MichaelC> q+
13:53:54 <MichaelC> mc: asks who the pointer is for - author or evaluator - and can we count on having access to server-side code at both evaluation and report time?
13:54:32 <MichaelC> ... also not sure there's always a single place in server-side code where the error caused
13:54:34 <MichaelC> ack m
13:55:26 <MichaelC> cs: evaluators also audiences of our test suite
13:55:36 <MichaelC> mc: so we're only talking about being able to point into our test suite?
13:56:56 <MichaelC> ... in that case maybe desirable to point to that, but unsure we need such a rich means of expression
13:57:56 <MichaelC> saz: also depends on test procedure
13:58:38 <MichaelC> ... in some cases, test procedure just looking at the HTML seen by the browser
13:59:00 <MichaelC> ... if we had, e.g., PHP test procedures, then we might want server-side pointers
13:59:20 <MichaelC> ... also raise question of whether there is something we can point to in all cases
13:59:36 <MichaelC> cv: HTTP-RDF provides most of the expression we need
13:59:51 <MichaelC> ... we're working mainly with generated code
14:00:21 <MichaelC> saz: setting aside metadata and request headers and focusing just on pointers
14:00:49 <MichaelC> ... suggest default is to point to the generated content, if there's something to point to
14:01:13 <MichaelC> ci: question still if there's client-side script
14:01:19 <MichaelC> ... so need more complete criteria
14:01:47 <MichaelC> cv: but when, e.g., JavaScript changes DOM, it's the DOM you analyze
14:02:04 <MichaelC> ... don't typically track the place in the function where element generated
14:02:29 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:03:03 <MichaelC> mc: sounds like, server-side or client-side, it's the results of the script we have to point to
14:03:54 <CarlosV> CarlosV has joined #tsdtf
14:04:01 <Tim> Tim has joined #tsdtf
14:04:05 <MichaelC> cv: we don't have way to point to script functions etc.
14:04:21 <MichaelC> saz: we track the exchange - user input and system output
14:04:33 <MichaelC> ... and determine if there are problems in the system output (generated code)
14:05:13 <MichaelC> ci: this line of reason works if you use DOM-based scripting
14:08:14 <MichaelC> mc: non DOM scripting is document.write?
14:08:18 <MichaelC> cv: that's stil DOM
14:08:22 <MichaelC> ci: was thinking of it as not
14:09:34 <MichaelC> mc: you still get generated content, even if not referenceable by XPath
14:09:41 <MichaelC> cs: how do you reference?
14:09:46 <MichaelC> mc: character offset?
14:10:12 <MichaelC> cv: what about alerts? need to refer to a generated element to reference
14:10:52 <MichaelC> saz: also need to record user input in a different way for client-side input
14:11:03 <MichaelC> ... HTTP-RDF doesn't express client-side input
14:11:14 <MichaelC> cs: use ExpertGuidance element
14:11:59 <MichaelC> mc: for alerts, suggest using element that triggered it to appear
14:12:49 <MichaelC> ... for user input, should be expressable in name-value pairs
14:13:05 <MichaelC> cv: also have to account for UI events
14:13:18 <MichaelC> ... ExpertGuidance for that
14:14:52 <MichaelC> mc: can record user input into a script for playback
14:15:01 <MichaelC> ... though that's not all that usable except for playback
14:15:46 <MichaelC> cs: e.g., for forms, you don't want something to play back, you want to provide instructions on what to put into form
14:16:19 <MichaelC> mc: agree, script might not be useful, maybe store name-value for form inputs and ExpertGuidance for other relevant actions
14:17:11 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: reference generated code whenever possible; use ExpertGuidance for client-side user input; user HTTP-RDF for server-side user input
14:18:43 <MichaelC> next item
14:19:01 <Christophe> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/
14:19:04 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/FrontPage
14:20:45 <MichaelC> cs: review templates available in wiki for group to review
14:20:58 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleOverviewTemplate
14:21:08 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStructureReviewTemplate
14:21:16 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleContentReviewTemplate
14:23:00 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStatusList
14:24:18 <MichaelC> mc: suggest for content review template, use "how does test sample address technique" rather than "does it" to prompt more thorough review
14:24:32 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2006/tests/process#content
14:24:38 <Tim> I agree with MC
14:24:52 <MichaelC> saz: have open action to update wording from checklist
14:25:01 <MichaelC> but we don't have more detail there
14:27:05 <MichaelC> ... should we work on checklist, or review sample to test process?
14:27:26 <MichaelC> mc: think we need to run it through a practice, then discover weaknesses and port back to checklist as needed
14:28:04 <MichaelC> ... each iteration do on different test cases so we don't lose value by familiarity
14:28:11 <MichaelC> cs: have some test cases available now to do this
14:28:36 <MichaelC> mc: suggest some people be reviewers, and some be "reviewees" who receive reviews without having looked at test case themselves
14:29:41 <MichaelC> cv: would like to finish refining the wording before we take this to experimental implementation
14:30:27 <MichaelC> saz: as we modify process, will update both checklist and templates
14:31:25 <MichaelC> cv: question from Tim about multiple reviews http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0011.html
14:31:51 <MichaelC> tb: keeping track of who's reviewing what
14:31:58 <MichaelC> saz: that's what status list is for
14:32:23 <MichaelC> ... that links test with current reviewer
14:32:55 <MichaelC> tb: could you have more than one reviewer working a particular aspect at one time?
14:33:19 <MichaelC> saz: according to our process, it's sequential with each step done by a single person
14:35:29 <MichaelC> saz: suggest organizing templates as table
14:37:18 <MichaelC> action: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist
14:37:29 <MichaelC> action: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion
14:37:36 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:37:37 <Zakim> -Vangelis_Karkaletsis
14:37:41 <Zakim> -Carlos_Velasco
14:37:42 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
14:37:43 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:37:48 <Zakim> -Cooper
14:37:49 <Zakim> -Daniela_Ortner
14:37:57 <Zakim> -CarlosI
14:37:58 <Zakim> WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has ended
14:37:59 <Zakim> Attendees were Daniela_Ortner, Shadi, Christophe_Strobbe, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, Carlos_Velasco, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, CarlosI, Cooper, Tim_Boland
14:38:20 <shadi> zakim, bye
14:38:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tsdtf
14:38:27 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:38:31 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-minutes.html shadi
14:38:32 <Vangelis> Vangelis has left #tsdtf
14:38:33 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:38:39 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
14:38:39 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-actions.rdf :
14:38:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist [1]
14:38:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc#T14-37-18
14:38:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion [2]
14:38:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc#T14-37-29