IRC log of tsdtf on 2007-02-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:31:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tsdtf

13:31:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc

13:31:56 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #tsdtf

13:32:04 [shadi]

zakim, this will be tsd

13:32:04 [Zakim]

ok, shadi, I see WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM already started

13:32:12 [shadi]

zakim, who is on the phone?

13:32:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Daniela_Ortner, +0321632aaaa

13:32:41 [Zakim]

+Shadi

13:32:49 [Christophe]

zakim, +321632 is Christophe_Strobbe

13:32:49 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632'

13:32:53 [CarlosV]

CarlosV has joined #tsdtf

13:32:59 [Christophe]

zakim, 321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe

13:32:59 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '321632aaaa'

13:33:09 [Christophe]

zakim, +321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe

13:33:09 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '+321632aaaa'

13:33:26 [Christophe]

zakim, 0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe

13:33:26 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not recognize a party named '0321632aaaa'

13:33:33 [Christophe]

zakim, +0321632aaaa is Christophe_Strobbe

13:33:33 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe; got it

13:33:50 [CarlosI]

CarlosI has joined #tsdtf

13:33:51 [Zakim]

+Klaus/Johannes/Thomas

13:34:24 [Christophe]

zakim, Klaus is Carlos_Velasco

13:34:24 [Zakim]

+Carlos_Velasco; got it

13:34:26 [CarlosV]

zakim, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas is CarlosV

13:34:26 [Zakim]

sorry, CarlosV, I do not recognize a party named 'Klaus/Johannes/Thomas'

13:34:48 [Zakim]

+Vangelis_Karkaletsis

13:35:16 [Zakim]

+[CTIC]

13:35:32 [Christophe]

zakim, [CTIC] is CarlosI

13:35:32 [Zakim]

+CarlosI; got it

13:38:03 [MichaelC]

MichaelC has joined #tsdtf

13:39:05 [Zakim]

+Cooper

13:41:06 [Christophe]

Locations in TCDL: summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0004.html

13:41:10 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

13:41:10 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

13:41:56 [shadi]

Topic: Locations in TCDL

13:42:05 [shadi]

agenda+ Locations in TCDL

13:42:21 [shadi]

agenda+ TSD TF Wiki

13:42:38 [shadi]

agenda+ Recommended server side scriptings

13:42:47 [shadi]

meeting: TSD TF

13:42:57 [shadi]

chair: CarlosV, Christophe

13:42:58 [MichaelC]

scribeNick: MichaelC

13:43:02 [MichaelC]

scribe: Michael_Cooper

13:43:04 [shadi]

scribe: Michael

13:43:39 [shadi]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0010.html

13:43:42 [MichaelC]

take up item 1

13:44:51 [shadi]

zakim, unmute me

13:44:51 [Zakim]

Shadi should no longer be muted

13:45:52 [MichaelC]

cv: server side vs client side scripting

13:46:20 [MichaelC]

... generally tools view generated code

13:47:34 [MichaelC]

saz: when we say a test fails, what do we point to as the trigger for the failure?

13:47:51 [MichaelC]

... simple case, image missing alt, can point to the image and say it's missing alt

13:48:23 [MichaelC]

... in scripting, do we point to raw, unprocessed, server-side script page, or to generated code?

13:49:51 [MichaelC]

... Christophe has posted about this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0004.html

13:50:29 [MichaelC]

cs: generated code depends on user input; error could be in different places depending on input

13:50:49 [MichaelC]

... so suggest location pointer into generated code, with information about the input used

13:51:22 [MichaelC]

... in cases with no user input, could use HTTP-RDF to build up the appropriate headers

13:51:31 [MichaelC]

cv: also applies to cases with user input

13:51:40 [MichaelC]

saz: focus on what we need to point to

13:51:46 [MichaelC]

q+

13:53:54 [MichaelC]

mc: asks who the pointer is for - author or evaluator - and can we count on having access to server-side code at both evaluation and report time?

13:54:32 [MichaelC]

... also not sure there's always a single place in server-side code where the error caused

13:54:34 [MichaelC]

ack m

13:55:26 [MichaelC]

cs: evaluators also audiences of our test suite

13:55:36 [MichaelC]

mc: so we're only talking about being able to point into our test suite?

13:56:56 [MichaelC]

... in that case maybe desirable to point to that, but unsure we need such a rich means of expression

13:57:56 [MichaelC]

saz: also depends on test procedure

13:58:38 [MichaelC]

... in some cases, test procedure just looking at the HTML seen by the browser

13:59:00 [MichaelC]

... if we had, e.g., PHP test procedures, then we might want server-side pointers

13:59:20 [MichaelC]

... also raise question of whether there is something we can point to in all cases

13:59:36 [MichaelC]

cv: HTTP-RDF provides most of the expression we need

13:59:51 [MichaelC]

... we're working mainly with generated code

14:00:21 [MichaelC]

saz: setting aside metadata and request headers and focusing just on pointers

14:00:49 [MichaelC]

... suggest default is to point to the generated content, if there's something to point to

14:01:13 [MichaelC]

ci: question still if there's client-side script

14:01:19 [MichaelC]

... so need more complete criteria

14:01:47 [MichaelC]

cv: but when, e.g., JavaScript changes DOM, it's the DOM you analyze

14:02:04 [MichaelC]

... don't typically track the place in the function where element generated

14:02:29 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

14:03:03 [MichaelC]

mc: sounds like, server-side or client-side, it's the results of the script we have to point to

14:03:54 [CarlosV]

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14:04:01 [Tim]

Tim has joined #tsdtf

14:04:05 [MichaelC]

cv: we don't have way to point to script functions etc.

14:04:21 [MichaelC]

saz: we track the exchange - user input and system output

14:04:33 [MichaelC]

... and determine if there are problems in the system output (generated code)

14:05:13 [MichaelC]

ci: this line of reason works if you use DOM-based scripting

14:08:14 [MichaelC]

mc: non DOM scripting is document.write?

14:08:18 [MichaelC]

cv: that's stil DOM

14:08:22 [MichaelC]

ci: was thinking of it as not

14:09:34 [MichaelC]

mc: you still get generated content, even if not referenceable by XPath

14:09:41 [MichaelC]

cs: how do you reference?

14:09:46 [MichaelC]

mc: character offset?

14:10:12 [MichaelC]

cv: what about alerts? need to refer to a generated element to reference

14:10:52 [MichaelC]

saz: also need to record user input in a different way for client-side input

14:11:03 [MichaelC]

... HTTP-RDF doesn't express client-side input

14:11:14 [MichaelC]

cs: use ExpertGuidance element

14:11:59 [MichaelC]

mc: for alerts, suggest using element that triggered it to appear

14:12:49 [MichaelC]

... for user input, should be expressable in name-value pairs

14:13:05 [MichaelC]

cv: also have to account for UI events

14:13:18 [MichaelC]

... ExpertGuidance for that

14:14:52 [MichaelC]

mc: can record user input into a script for playback

14:15:01 [MichaelC]

... though that's not all that usable except for playback

14:15:46 [MichaelC]

cs: e.g., for forms, you don't want something to play back, you want to provide instructions on what to put into form

14:16:19 [MichaelC]

mc: agree, script might not be useful, maybe store name-value for form inputs and ExpertGuidance for other relevant actions

14:17:11 [MichaelC]

RESOLUTION: reference generated code whenever possible; use ExpertGuidance for client-side user input; user HTTP-RDF for server-side user input

14:18:43 [MichaelC]

next item

14:19:01 [Christophe]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/

14:19:04 [MichaelC]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/FrontPage

14:20:45 [MichaelC]

cs: review templates available in wiki for group to review

14:20:58 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleOverviewTemplate

14:21:08 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStructureReviewTemplate

14:21:16 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleContentReviewTemplate

14:23:00 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStatusList

14:24:18 [MichaelC]

mc: suggest for content review template, use "how does test sample address technique" rather than "does it" to prompt more thorough review

14:24:32 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2006/tests/process#content

14:24:38 [Tim]

I agree with MC

14:24:52 [MichaelC]

saz: have open action to update wording from checklist

14:25:01 [MichaelC]

but we don't have more detail there

14:27:05 [MichaelC]

... should we work on checklist, or review sample to test process?

14:27:26 [MichaelC]

mc: think we need to run it through a practice, then discover weaknesses and port back to checklist as needed

14:28:04 [MichaelC]

... each iteration do on different test cases so we don't lose value by familiarity

14:28:11 [MichaelC]

cs: have some test cases available now to do this

14:28:36 [MichaelC]

mc: suggest some people be reviewers, and some be "reviewees" who receive reviews without having looked at test case themselves

14:29:41 [MichaelC]

cv: would like to finish refining the wording before we take this to experimental implementation

14:30:27 [MichaelC]

saz: as we modify process, will update both checklist and templates

14:31:25 [MichaelC]

cv: question from Tim about multiple reviews http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Feb/0011.html

14:31:51 [MichaelC]

tb: keeping track of who's reviewing what

14:31:58 [MichaelC]

saz: that's what status list is for

14:32:23 [MichaelC]

... that links test with current reviewer

14:32:55 [MichaelC]

tb: could you have more than one reviewer working a particular aspect at one time?

14:33:19 [MichaelC]

saz: according to our process, it's sequential with each step done by a single person

14:35:29 [MichaelC]

saz: suggest organizing templates as table

14:37:18 [MichaelC]

action: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist

14:37:29 [MichaelC]

action: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion

14:37:36 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

14:37:37 [Zakim]

-Vangelis_Karkaletsis

14:37:41 [Zakim]

-Carlos_Velasco

14:37:42 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

14:37:43 [Zakim]

-Shadi

14:37:48 [Zakim]

-Cooper

14:37:49 [Zakim]

-Daniela_Ortner

14:37:57 [Zakim]

-CarlosI

14:37:58 [Zakim]

WAI_TSDTF()8:30AM has ended

14:37:59 [Zakim]

Attendees were Daniela_Ortner, Shadi, Christophe_Strobbe, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, Carlos_Velasco, Vangelis_Karkaletsis, CarlosI, Cooper, Tim_Boland

14:38:20 [shadi]

zakim, bye

14:38:20 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #tsdtf

14:38:27 [shadi]

rrsagent, make logs world

14:38:31 [shadi]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:38:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-minutes.html shadi

14:38:32 [Vangelis]

Vangelis has left #tsdtf

14:38:33 [shadi]

rrsagent, make logs world

14:38:39 [shadi]

rrsagent, bye

14:38:39 [RRSAgent]

I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-actions.rdf :

14:38:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shadi to post wording cleanup of review checklist [1]

14:38:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc#T14-37-18

14:38:39 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Vangelis to tweak review templates based on discussion [2]

14:38:39 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-tsdtf-irc#T14-37-29