IRC log of tagmem on 2007-02-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:55:12 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:55:19 [noah]
scribenick: noah
16:55:25 [noah]
scribe: Noah Mendelsohn
16:55:48 [noah]
meeting: W3C Technical Architecture Group Telcon - 12 February 2007
16:55:52 [noah]
date: 12 February 2007
16:56:37 [noah]
16:57:04 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:00PM has now started
16:57:11 [Zakim]
16:58:19 [raman]
raman has joined #tagmem
16:58:57 [Zakim]
17:00:35 [Zakim]
17:00:55 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:00:55 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:01:01 [Zakim]
17:01:02 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
17:01:02 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:01:09 [DanC]
agenda + Convene, reivew minutes and agenda
17:01:17 [DanC]
agenda + Issue RDFinXHTML-35
17:01:27 [DanC]
agenda + Issue utf7Encoding-55
17:01:51 [DanC]
agenda + Issue IRIEverywhere-27 and xmlChunk-44
17:02:10 [Zakim]
17:02:11 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:02:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, reivew minutes and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
17:02:27 [DanC]
Regrets: TimBL, Stuart
17:02:30 [Vincent]
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17:02:30 [noah]
topic: Convene, review minutes and agenda
17:02:53 [Rhys]
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17:02:59 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Raman, DanC, noah, [INRIA]
17:03:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Rhys, Vincent, raman, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, Norm, ht_away, DanC
17:03:18 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:03:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Raman, DanC, noah, [INRIA]
17:03:32 [DanC]
Zakim, [INRIA] is VincentQ
17:03:32 [Zakim]
+VincentQ; got it
17:03:44 [Zakim]
17:04:22 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:04:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Raman, DanC, noah, VincentQ, Rhys_Lewis
17:04:44 [noah]
present: Dan Connolly, Rhys Lewis, Noah Mendelsohn, T.V. Raman, Norm Walsh, Vincent Quint
17:04:50 [noah]
regrets: Tim Berners-Lee, David Orchard, Henry Thompson, Stuart Williams
17:04:55 [DanC]
-> minutes 5 Feb
17:05:12 [noah]
DC: Considering minutes from 5 Feb :
17:05:25 [noah]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of 5 February 2007 at are approved
17:06:01 [Zakim]
17:06:14 [noah]
DC: Next meeting scheduled for 19 Feb
17:06:19 [noah]
TVR: US Holiday
17:06:27 [noah]
Several: at risk
17:06:34 [noah]
DC: Cancelling 19 February
17:06:42 [noah]
present: Dan Connolly, Rhys Lewis, Noah Mendelsohn, T.V. Raman, Norm Walsh, Vincent Quint, David Orchard
17:06:57 [noah]
DO: regrets for 26 February
17:07:07 [noah]
NW: Will scribe 26 February
17:07:25 [noah]
RESOLUTION: Next TAG teleconference will be on 26 February 2007
17:07:35 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
17:07:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Issue RDFinXHTML-35" taken up [from DanC]
17:07:41 [noah]
topic: Issue RDFinXHTML-35
17:08:34 [noah]
DC: Mail from Harry Halpin at
17:08:47 [noah]
DC: Harry is chair of the GRDDL WG
17:09:08 [noah]
DC: He's saying we might want to review
17:09:11 [noah]
From the email:
17:09:11 [noah]
In order to prevent a "surprise" Last Call, I'd like for the TAG to know that we are going to go, barring any final comments or problems, to request move to Last Call on or shortly after Feb 15th for the following three documents:
17:09:11 [noah]
1) GRDDL Specification [2]
17:09:11 [noah]
2) GRDDL Primer [3]
17:09:12 [noah]
3) GRDDL Use Cases [4]
17:09:50 [noah]
DC: We were going to last call in Nov, then Jan, etc., but we're really, really doing it soon now
17:10:03 [noah]
DC: We're getting detailed feedback from testers
17:10:11 [noah]
DC: RDFa has a test suite harness moving forward.
17:10:39 [noah]
DC: Talking about last call in June, possibly getting Flickr involved
17:10:55 [noah]
DC: Some concern about deploying RDFa in its present state.
17:11:17 [noah]
DC: It's cool iff XHTML points to it. Sort of like XML Base.
17:11:23 [noah]
NW: Right, XML Base works that way.
17:11:39 [noah]
DC: So, the story adds up if the XHTML spec is updated.
17:11:52 [noah]
TVR: Is this true for anything that uses modularization?
17:12:13 [noah]
TVR: Unless your modules are declared as a profile, you don't have a "follow your nose" path through the specs.
17:12:33 [noah]
TVR: This was done as an XHTML2 module.
17:12:43 [noah]
DC: Well, the point is it >needs< to be done as an XHTML module
17:13:06 [noah]
DC: Going back to TAG discussions. Seems we talked about modularization at a meeting (in Cambridge)
17:13:27 [noah]
DC: Substitution groups.
17:13:35 [DanC]
(hot-off-the-presss minutes from the RDFa task force )
17:14:28 [noah]
NM: Or schema wildcards (skip or lax). That's another way of avoiding modifying the container schema.
17:14:43 [noah]
DC: I hear there's work in progress on XHTML modulariztion.
17:14:56 [noah]
Note that Schema 1.1 is likely to allow elements to be in multiple substitution groups.
17:15:26 [noah]
TVR: I believe that attempts were made to use schema
17:16:20 [noah]
NM: I never said schema would or wouldn't meet the XHTML need
17:16:42 [noah]
DC: Yes, interesting question. Seems useful in principle of both sides would try harder to make schema work for XHTML.
17:16:49 [noah]
DC: Rhys, have you been following this?
17:17:32 [noah]
RL: We at Volantis did successfully use substitution groups into a particular XHTML 2.0 subset.
17:17:48 [noah]
RL: Didn't do it myself, but pretty sure it was done.
17:18:08 [noah]
DO: Seems to be related to the XML section of our versioning finding.
17:18:33 [noah]
DO: Maybe should be sure we describe experiences of XHTML. Maybe will talk to Rhys offline.
17:19:11 [noah]
DC: Maybe we should ask XXX to describe his/her experiences?
17:19:18 [noah]
17:19:27 [noah]
TVR: Also Mark Birbeck
17:20:08 [noah]
DC: Suggest I write Mimasa and Mark Birbeck cc: www-tag
17:20:47 [noah]
NM: Well, there is the public versioning list. Not sure it's still active.
17:21:34 [noah]
DO: General stuff has been on TAG, XML stuff on schema. Public-xml-versioning is a good choice.
17:21:45 [Norm]
17:22:18 [noah]
RL: No strong view on which list to use.
17:22:20 [dorchard]
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17:22:45 [noah]
DO: Rhys, I suggest you look at part 2 of the versioning finding.
17:22:53 [noah]
NM: Also suggest the draft Dave is doing of a Primer for the schema wg
17:23:26 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: ask Mimasa and Mark Birbeck about feasability of using substitution groups in XHTML modularization, cc public-xml-versioning
17:24:07 [noah]
NM: Suggest one time email to www-tag saying: discussion starting over there.
17:24:10 [noah]
DO: yes
17:24:37 [noah]
DC: nah, meeting minutes are enough. Anyone who wants can send www-tag.
17:24:58 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
17:24:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issue utf7Encoding-55" taken up [from DanC]
17:24:59 [noah]
***scribe note to self: earlier RL said they were working on versioning issues in DIAL...add to minutes***
17:25:00 [Rhys]
DI has some of these issues associated with the DIAL spec
17:25:06 [dorchard]
Latest version of Schema 1.1 guide to versioning:
17:25:17 [noah]
topic: Issue utf7Encoding-55
17:25:37 [noah]
DC: Most recent action was to Vincent to list and describe the issue
17:25:56 [noah]
VQ: I sent an email to www-tag right after the telcon. Haven't seen any reaction to it.
17:26:26 [DanC]
-> New TAG issue: utf7Encoding-55 Vincent Quint (Thursday, 4 January)
17:26:42 [noah]
Vincent's email is at:
17:27:33 [DanC]
-> ban the use and implementation of UTF-7 Roy T. Fielding (Thursday, 14 December)
17:27:37 [noah]
NM: There was an email exchange with Roy. Not recalling whether the thread reached closure.
17:27:45 [noah]
NW: Issue was raised by Roy.
17:27:56 [noah]
DC: Don't think we've heard from Roy since.
17:28:15 [noah]
DC: If someone who asked us to add this doesn't step up, I'm tempted to drop this.
17:28:25 [noah]
DO: Interested, but too much to do right now.
17:28:45 [noah]
VW: There are pointers from the issues list:
17:28:59 [noah]
DC: For now, it's in the "someday" pile
17:28:59 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
17:28:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Issue IRIEverywhere-27 and xmlChunk-44" taken up [from DanC]
17:29:16 [noah]
17:29:18 [noah]
topic: Issue IRIEverywhere-27 and xmlChunk-44
17:29:46 [noah]
DC: I had an action to ask Tim if he was satisfied. Sent mail asking: "Are you satisfied." Suspect he hasn't yet gotten time to read it.
17:30:08 [noah]
DC: my action continues
17:30:13 [noah]
DC: xmlChunk?
17:30:27 [noah]
NW: Came up when XSL and XQuery were trying to define deep-equal
17:30:57 [noah]
NW: Those are now at Recommendation, so there is at least one normative definition of deep equality of XML chunks. It may or may not be a useful test in particular cases?
17:31:02 [noah]
DC: How many tests available?
17:31:05 [noah]
NW: Not sure.
17:31:18 [noah]
DC: Wrinkles? Preserves comments?
17:31:31 [noah]
NW: Lots. Don't know on comments. Not sure I like it.
17:32:04 [noah]
NM: Tree or sequence
17:32:08 [noah]
NW: Not sure.
17:32:27 [noah]
NM: Nothing weird like starting in the middle of a tag and ending in the middle of another.
17:32:30 [DanC]
(checking ...)
17:32:33 [noah]
NW: Nope, not weird like that.
17:32:51 [noah]
DC: xmlChunk-44 is an open TAG issue?
17:33:07 [noah]
NW: Yes. We sort of stalled. Lacking some impetus to move forward.
17:33:23 [DanC]
action done
17:33:28 [noah]
DC: Norm had action from 2004
17:33:32 [noah]
NW: I did something.
17:33:40 [DanC]
what he did:
17:33:49 [noah]
DC: Norm's action from 8 May 2004 to propose deep equal function on two XML trees is DONE
17:34:07 [noah]
DC: Anyone propose to close the issue?
17:34:23 [noah]
NW: Yes, sure. There is now an answer. I think we have the impression there is no one right answer.
17:34:32 [noah]
DC: Did we have a draft finding?
17:34:34 [noah]
NW: yes
17:34:40 [noah]
DC: Is this a motion to approve that?
17:34:47 [noah]
NW: yeah, I need to review that.
17:35:04 [noah]
ACTION: Norm to review draft finding on xmlChunk-44 to see whether issue can be closed and finding approved.
17:35:39 [noah]
DC: Any other thoughs on xmlChunk-44 or IRIEverywhere-27?
17:35:41 [noah]
17:35:47 [noah]
DC: Propose to adjourn.
17:35:48 [Zakim]
17:35:49 [Zakim]
17:35:51 [noah]
DC: We are adjourned.
17:35:52 [Zakim]
17:35:53 [Zakim]
17:35:53 [Zakim]
17:35:54 [Zakim]
17:35:56 [Zakim]
17:35:58 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:00PM has ended
17:35:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Raman, DanC, noah, VincentQ, Rhys_Lewis, DOrchard
17:36:50 [noah]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:37:04 [noah]
rrsagent, bye
17:37:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
17:37:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to ask Mimasa and Mark Birbeck about feasability of using substitution groups in XHTML modularization, cc public-xml-versioning [1]
17:37:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:37:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to review draft finding on xmlChunk-44 to see whether issue can be closed and finding approved. [2]
17:37:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in