13:24:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:24:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc
13:24:26 <judy> judy has joined #eo
13:24:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
13:24:49 <Wayne> scribe: Wayne
13:25:33 <Wayne> Meeting: EOWG
13:25:49 <Wayne> Chair: Judy Brewer
13:26:30 <Alan> Alan has joined #eo
13:28:26 <shadi> zakim, this will be eowg
13:28:27 <Zakim> ok, shadi, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
13:28:38 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:28:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], doyle, Jack
13:28:55 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:28:57 <Alan> zakim, IPCaller is Alan
13:28:57 <Zakim> +Alan; got it
13:29:48 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007JanMar/0034.html
13:29:48 <Zakim> +Bingham
13:30:16 <Zakim> +Judy
13:30:21 <Jack> Jack has joined #eo
13:30:24 <Zakim> +Wayne_Dick
13:30:26 <shawn> shawn has joined #eo
13:30:50 <Henny> Henny has joined #eo
13:31:21 <Zakim> +Shawn_Henry
13:32:46 <Zakim> +Loughborough
13:32:59 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
13:33:10 <Zakim> +Andrew_Arch
13:33:19 <judy> zakim, who's here?
13:33:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alan, doyle, Jack, Shadi, Bingham, Judy, Wayne_Dick, Shawn_Henry, Loughborough, Andrew_Arch
13:33:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Henny, shawn, Jack, Alan, Zakim, judy, RRSAgent, Andrew, Wayne, shadi
13:33:30 <shadi> zakim, pleae mute me
13:33:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pleae mute me', shadi
13:33:36 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
13:33:36 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:34:24 <Alan> zakim, mute me
13:34:24 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
13:34:37 <shawn> who is muted?
13:34:45 <shawn> zakim, who is muted?
13:34:45 <Zakim> I see Alan, Shadi, Shawn_Henry muted
13:34:45 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:34:46 <Zakim> Wayne_Dick should now be muted
13:36:08 <Zakim> +Pat_Case
13:36:23 <Henny> Apologies I have to dial out via reception and they are not answering.
13:36:57 <shawn> zakim, Pat_case is Justin
13:36:58 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
13:37:06 <Zakim> +Henny_Swan
13:37:11 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
13:37:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alan (muted), doyle, Jack, Shadi (muted), Bingham, Judy, Wayne_Dick (muted), Shawn_Henry (muted), Loughborough, Andrew_Arch, Justin, Henny_Swan
13:37:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Henny, shawn, Jack, Alan, Zakim, judy, RRSAgent, Andrew, Wayne, shadi
13:39:56 <shawn> meeting: EOWG
13:39:59 <shawn> chair: Judy
13:40:13 <shawn> regrets: [scriber pls pull from mailing list]
13:40:47 <shawn> present: Alan, doyle, Jack, Shadi, Bingham, Judy, Wayne_Dick, Shawn_Henry, Loughborough, Andrew_Arch, Justin, Henny_Swan
13:41:54 <Wayne> zakim, unmute me
13:41:55 <Zakim> Wayne_Dick should no longer be muted
13:42:56 <Wayne> Topic: Update on Aging
13:44:43 <shawn> "WAI-AGE" (Web Accessibility Initiative: Ageing Education and Harmonisation), a European Commission funded project 
13:44:54 <Wayne> judy: The initial work on WAI-AGE will be literature review.  We want to look across EO materials with update for individuals who are aging.  
13:44:57 <shawn> s/Topic: Update on Aging/Topic: Update on WAI-AGE project
13:45:31 <shawn> action: Judy fill in background on WAI-AGE project in the minutes
13:46:57 <Wayne> William: Is this associated with American Association of Retired People involved (AARP)?
13:48:04 <Wayne> Judy: Not at this time. 
13:48:18 <Wayne> Jack:  What is the time frame and outcomes.
13:50:05 <Wayne> Judy: This is a three year project starting January 2007.  Add in outreach to aging to related documents.  Sometines take issues to other WAI groups.
13:51:48 <Wayne> William:  Is aging going to be loss of vision, mobility ... rather than aging as a disability?
13:53:32 <Wayne> Judy: We are hoping that we can includes many of the functional disabilities of aging.  There is a history of how these are addressed.  Often separately... More together in Europe ... More separate in US..  many people in EO are interestes.
13:54:06 <Wayne> Judy: Who is interested and how about concerns?
13:54:37 <Alan> zakim, unmute me
13:54:37 <Zakim> Alan should no longer be muted
13:54:41 <Alan> q+
13:54:51 <Alan> zakim, mute me
13:54:51 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
13:55:01 <Wayne> Doyle: There is really not a distinction between aging related disabilities and ordinary disability.
13:55:05 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac
13:55:07 <shawn>  zakim, who is making noise?
13:55:20 <shawn> present+ Sylvie_Duchateau
13:55:21 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (89%), Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (13%)
13:56:04 <Alan> q-
13:56:07 <Wayne> Judy:  Sometimes we write in a way that is geared to disability community and people with aging ralated disabilities often don't find the information.
13:56:17 <Alan> zakim, unmute me
13:56:17 <Zakim> Alan should no longer be muted
13:57:37 <Wayne> Alan:  Aging being excluded because of lack of training to us IT.  Services are provided on the Web rather than face to face and individual who are aging may be excluded.
13:57:48 <Alan> zakim, mute me
13:57:48 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
13:58:36 <Alan> zakim, unmute me
13:58:37 <Zakim> Alan should no longer be muted
13:59:17 <Alan> zakim, mute me
13:59:17 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
13:59:32 <Wayne> Andrew: Lack of familliarity is being considered in Austrailia.  They did not grow up with IT, and they don't change between interfaces very well.
14:00:31 <Wayne> Doyle:  Many tools will be wearable.  Emergency services on the web will be accessible.
14:01:04 <sylvie> sylvie has joined #eo
14:01:48 <shawn> is shawn
14:02:09 <Zakim> + +1.604.689.aaaa
14:02:10 <Zakim> -Shawn_Henry
14:02:19 <shawn> zakim, aaaa is shawn
14:02:21 <Zakim> +shawn; got it
14:03:29 <Wayne> Topic: Update and follow-up from EOWG face-to-face discussions on WCAG Basics/ABC/WCAG on the street
14:06:33 <Wayne> Shawn: We have the document on the Task Force working group.  
14:10:45 <Wayne> Shawn: This was discussed at a general discussion of the face-to-face and at a small working group.  
14:18:11 <Alan> zakim, unmute me
14:18:12 <Alan> q+
14:18:13 <Zakim> Alan should no longer be muted
14:19:31 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
14:19:31 <Zakim> Wayne_Dick should now be muted
14:19:46 <Harvey> Temporary inaccessibilities I encountered: see under my accessibility page:
14:21:05 <Wayne> Jack: Does not see the connection between the audience and the purpose goals and objectives.
14:21:40 <Wayne> Judy: Are you saying that this resource would not be for Mom and Pop websites.
14:23:03 <Wayne> Shaw: There were two points of view:  [Guidelines in plain language or a tutorial on how to make the website accessible.]
14:23:40 <Harvey> http://www.hbingham.com/accessibility/index.htm  link under Motivation to Inaccessibilities and Ways to Overcome Them
14:24:19 <Wayne> Shawn: Breakout group found some need for explanation as well as just simplified guidelines.
14:27:20 <Wayne> Alan: We need a simplified document for people like the press.  
14:27:45 <Wayne> Judy: Do you mean that we need to control the simplification.
14:28:26 <judy> action: cl-basics -- add to "audience" -- journalists needing to write something quickly
14:28:48 <Wayne> Alan: Yes.  Someone who is writing in public policy without deep web knowledge.
14:29:01 <Zakim> -Alan
14:29:02 <Wayne> Justin: What would a reader take away?
14:29:20 <judy> action: cl-basics -- add to "purpose" -- be able to control the simplification -- write it before someone else does.
14:29:28 <Wayne> Shawn:  A quick reader will look to wee what WCAG is about.
14:30:05 <Wayne> Justin:  If I wanted to say how to make a data table accessible would that be here.
14:31:15 <Wayne> Andrew:  Take out specialize language like "programatically determined" will be converted comon language.
14:31:39 <shadi> q+ to continue asking about target audience
14:31:41 <Wayne> Shawn: To simplify the document you must limit the scope.
14:31:59 <judy> action: cl-basics -- add to purpose -- limit the scope so that we can simplify the language.
14:32:29 <Wayne> Justin: Would this be like quick tip document?
14:32:44 <Wayne> Shawn: Kind of..
14:32:45 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
14:32:45 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:32:53 <judy> action: cl-basics -- add to purpose??? -- turn all of wcag 2.0 into quick-tip type language 
14:33:27 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
14:33:27 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:33:31 <shadi> q-
14:33:41 <Wayne> Jack:  How are we limiting the scope to focus on a particular group of people.
14:34:31 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
14:34:31 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:34:42 <Wayne> Shawn:  Many people say, "I tried to read WCAG 2.0 and couldn't read it."
14:34:47 <shadi> q+ to raise issue with the guidelines
14:35:49 <Wayne> Shawn: These were Web Accessbility exerts making the same comments.
14:36:48 <Wayne> Shadi:  Have heard the same comments.  Those developers should be able to read the guidelines.   I think thisis a problem with the guidelines, not the need for a separate document.
14:36:48 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
14:36:48 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:37:18 <Andrew> q+ to compare with other TRs
14:37:24 <shadi> q-
14:37:31 <shadi> ack alan
14:38:34 <Wayne> Judy:  If that is the kind of feedback we are getting the we do need to fix the WCAG documents.  
14:39:03 <Wayne> z
14:40:02 <judy> s/getting the we do need to fix/getting, then we still need to work on the language in 
14:40:41 <Andrew> q-
14:40:48 <Wayne> Andrew:  I have problems reading the technical requirements of any kind.  I am not sure that we should change the WCAG.
14:41:06 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
14:41:06 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:41:24 <judy> zakim, who's here?
14:41:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see doyle, Jack, Shadi, Bingham, Judy, Wayne_Dick (muted), Loughborough, Andrew_Arch, Justin, Henny_Swan, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), shawn
14:41:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see sylvie, Harvey, Henny, shawn, Jack, Alan, Zakim, judy, RRSAgent, Andrew, Wayne, shadi
14:42:13 <Andrew> Andrew: wgac is a Tech Rec, not a how to do accessibility. Like the XHTML TR is not about how to buide a web site
14:42:20 <Wayne> Justin: People have a mental model is that WCAG will show you how to get your website accessible.  It is being played up as something it not is.
14:43:12 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
14:43:12 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:43:32 <Wayne> Shadi: Technical specifications are for developers and should be readable by developers.  If developers cannot read them then maybe we should change it.
14:45:33 <Wayne> Judy: Let's look very honestly at the kind of feedback we are getting at home, and explore language... See what could be done with the wording to preserve the eaning.  Don't want to get stuck in the assumption that technical specification must be [difficult].  
14:46:36 <Wayne> Judy: We need to be careful about how technical specifications need to be difficult.
14:47:06 <Wayne> zakim, unmute me
14:47:06 <Zakim> Wayne_Dick should no longer be muted
14:48:26 <shawn> wayne: wcag is pretty hard for me to read
14:49:08 <Wayne> Shawn: If WCAG becomes clear then this will not be necessary.
14:50:55 <Zakim> -shawn
14:51:20 <Zakim> +Shawn_Henry
14:52:48 <Wayne> Doyle: This is a basic problem with how we commuicate with each other.  Text based communication.  This is the most important conversation we can have.
14:52:53 <shawn> zakim, who is muted?
14:52:53 <Zakim> I see Shadi, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac, Shawn_Henry muted
14:53:55 <shawn> http://www.webstandards.org/2007/02/08/what-to-do-with-wcag-2/
14:54:04 <Wayne> Justin: Web Standards Post.  Look at a public perspective.
14:54:41 <Andrew> Justin: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/02/08/what-to-do-with-wcag-2/
14:55:49 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:55:51 <Zakim> -Jack
14:55:51 <Zakim> -Henny_Swan
14:55:52 <Zakim> -Shawn_Henry
14:55:52 <Zakim> -Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac
14:55:54 <Zakim> -Loughborough
14:55:54 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
14:55:55 <Zakim> -doyle
14:55:56 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:55:57 <Zakim> -Andrew_Arch
14:55:58 <Zakim> -Justin
14:56:06 <judy> zakim, who's here?
14:56:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Judy, Wayne_Dick
14:56:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see sylvie, Harvey, Henny, shawn, Zakim, judy, RRSAgent, Andrew, Wayne, shadi
14:56:10 <Zakim> -Wayne_Dick
14:57:17 <Zakim> -Judy
14:57:20 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:57:21 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:57:22 <Zakim> Attendees were doyle, Jack, Shadi, Alan, Bingham, Judy, Wayne_Dick, Shawn_Henry, Loughborough, Andrew_Arch, Justin, Henny_Swan, Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac, +1.604.689.aaaa,
14:57:24 <Zakim> ... shawn
14:57:30 <shadi> zakim, bye
14:57:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
14:57:36 <sylvie> sylvie has left #eo
14:57:44 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:57:49 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-minutes.html shadi
14:57:51 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:57:59 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-actions.rdf :
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Judy fill in background on WAI-AGE project in the minutes [1]
14:57:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc#T13-45-31
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cl-basics -- add to "audience" -- journalists needing to write something quickly [2]
14:57:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc#T14-28-26
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cl-basics -- add to "purpose" -- be able to control the simplification -- write it before someone else does. [3]
14:57:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc#T14-29-20
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cl-basics -- add to purpose -- limit the scope so that we can simplify the language. [4]
14:57:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc#T14-31-59
14:57:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cl-basics -- add to purpose??? -- turn all of wcag 2.0 into quick-tip type language  [5]
14:57:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/09-eo-irc#T14-32-53