15:08:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-desc
15:08:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc
15:08:42 <Jonathan> Zakim, this is WSDL
15:08:42 <Zakim> ok, Jonathan; that matches WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM
15:08:50 <Jonathan> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jonathan_Marsh
15:08:59 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
15:09:01 <Zakim> WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended
15:09:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Jonathan_Marsh
15:10:59 <Zakim> WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has now started
15:11:01 <Zakim> +??P30
15:11:09 <TonyR> zakim, ?? is me
15:11:09 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
15:16:09 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
15:16:11 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
15:16:12 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
15:18:09 <alewis> alewis has joined #ws-desc
15:18:20 <Zakim> +Arthur
15:18:58 <Zakim> +[Canon]
15:19:16 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ws-desc
15:20:46 <youenn> youenn has joined #ws-desc
15:21:45 <Jonathan> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/sawsdl/CR/testsuite
15:26:01 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
15:26:05 <Zakim> -[Canon]
15:26:07 <Zakim> -Arthur
15:26:21 <Zakim> -TonyR
15:26:22 <Zakim> WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended
15:26:23 <Zakim> Attendees were TonyR, Jonathan_Marsh, Arthur, [Canon]
15:46:21 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-desc
15:46:49 <pauld> sends regrets, having too much time making phones ring
15:46:56 <pauld> s/time/fun/
15:57:30 <Allen> Allen has joined #ws-desc
15:59:45 <Roberto> Roberto has joined #ws-desc
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16:01:53 <JacekK> zakim, this is ws-desc
16:02:02 <Zakim> sorry, JacekK, I do not see a conference named 'ws-desc' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:02:11 <JacekK> zakim, this is wsdwg
16:02:14 <Zakim> ok, JacekK; that matches WS_DescWG()11:00AM
16:02:26 <JacekK> zakim, who is here?
16:02:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see alewis, JacekK, +1.541.752.aaaa, [Sun]
16:02:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see JacekK, Roberto, Allen, pauld, youenn, Arthur, alewis, RRSAgent, Zakim, Jonathan, TonyR
16:03:55 <Zakim> +Arthur
16:04:17 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
16:04:56 <Arthur> anyone home?
16:05:15 <Jonathan> Zakim, aaaa is Allen
16:05:15 <Zakim> +Allen; got it
16:05:27 <Zakim> +??P46
16:05:36 <charlton> charlton has joined #ws-desc
16:05:39 <Zakim> +??P48
16:05:40 <Jonathan> Zakim, ??P46 is Chalton
16:05:41 <Zakim> +Chalton; got it
16:05:50 <Jonathan> Zakim, Chalton is Charlton
16:05:50 <Zakim> +Charlton; got it
16:05:52 <TonyR> zakim, ??p48 is me
16:05:52 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
16:06:48 <alewis> scribe: alewis
16:07:03 <alewis> minutes accepted.
16:07:40 <alewis> topic: action items: bang, bang, everything reviewed
16:07:55 <alewis> topic: administrivia: skip over
16:08:07 <alewis> topic: one-way mep review for xmlp
16:08:20 <alewis> jonathan: any objections to forwarding comments?
16:08:37 <alewis> ACTION: jonathan to forward comments on one-way mep to XMLP working group
16:09:19 <alewis> topic: ws-policy fragment identifiers
16:09:49 <JacekK> q+
16:09:59 <alewis> jonathan: don't understand why this exists; it doesn't work properly
16:10:03 <Zakim> +[Canon]
16:10:10 <Jonathan> ack jacek
16:10:12 <alewis> arthur: exists to match wsdl 2.0 component designators
16:10:22 <alewis> jonathan: has big problem with imports and includes
16:11:27 <alewis> jacek: component identifiers do work properly for wsdl 2.0.
16:11:52 <alewis> (or maybe jacek was talking about the 1.1 identifiers?)
16:12:19 <alewis> arthur and jacek seem to think that the identifiers are okay; jonathan now uncertain of his analysis.
16:13:07 <alewis> jacek: since imported things are in their own namespace, everything actually does work.
16:13:22 <alewis> jonathan: will take another look, trying to find a case that's unclear as an example.
16:13:33 <alewis> arthur: targetNamespace isn't required in 1.1, is it?
16:15:33 <alewis> defer for a week, review again and discuss; jonathan continues to believe that there may be a simpler approach.
16:16:04 <alewis> topic: ws-addressing metadata draft in last call, want review within three weeks.
16:16:13 <alewis> jonathan: call for volunteers to review.
16:17:45 <Zakim> -Allen
16:18:31 <plh> plh has joined #ws-desc
16:18:42 <Zakim> +Plh
16:19:07 <alewis> topic: cr 112, awaiting a proposal from philippe
16:19:35 <alewis> topic: cr117, escaping in http {location}
16:19:53 <alewis> jonathan has tried to write up option one in more detail.
16:20:10 <alewis> needs massaging, to incorporate clarifications.
16:20:27 <alewis> youenn has clarified option two, as well, making one and two fairly compatible (?)
16:20:32 <chad> chad has joined #ws-desc
16:21:51 <Zakim> +Gilbert_Pilz
16:22:04 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-desc
16:22:09 <alewis> discussion of parameter encoding, issues raised by jacek in email.
16:22:15 <scribe-jjm> scribe-jjm has joined #ws-desc
16:23:40 <charlton> zakim, mute me
16:23:40 <Zakim> Charlton should now be muted
16:24:15 <alewis> youenn: need to remove ampersand, colon, equals (all special URL characters that might have a special use in a URL) should be encoded, to be safe.
16:24:51 <alewis> youenn offers to send a list of characters which may have to be encoded.
16:25:20 <alewis> discussion of which ones need it, attempting to talk out the list.
16:28:00 <alewis> jonathan: if we update list to include query parameters, does that solve it?
16:28:34 <alewis> jacek has pointed out that question mark and slash are in wrong place.
16:28:52 <alewis> jonathan will move those two.
16:29:58 <alewis> jonathan: okay, what do people prefer?
16:30:48 <alewis> discussion of some other characters (tilde, exclamation point)
16:31:41 <alewis> three changes: encode query parameter separator, move two characters, [something else i missed]
16:31:42 <alewis> ready to adopt?
16:32:01 <alewis> no objections heard
16:32:19 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR117 resolved with option one as modified.
16:32:36 <Jonathan> s/[something else i missed]/add provision to encode query parameter separater/
16:34:23 <JacekK> s/separater/separator, and change tilde to exclamation point/
16:34:30 <JacekK> topic: issue CR143
16:35:27 <Zakim> +??P0
16:35:45 <alewis> jonathan has had offline discussions with various folks on handling the http binding.
16:36:01 <Allen> zakim, ??P0 is Allen
16:36:01 <Zakim> +Allen; got it
16:36:15 <alewis> proposal is to change transfer-coding to content-encoding in the syntax, in the name of the property, and to clarify the description.
16:36:35 <alewis> call for comments: none heard
16:37:10 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 143 closed with the resolution: change transfer-encoding to content-encoding, clarify description.
16:37:22 <alewis> topic: CR 146
16:37:58 <youenn_> youenn_ has joined #ws-desc
16:38:12 <alewis> jonathan can't remember why this wasn't closed with acceptance of the proposal from last week's minutes.
16:39:06 <alewis> anything thrown out with ignoreUncited=true must be nillable; postponed because youenn wasn't around.
16:40:40 <Jonathan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0009.html
16:43:26 <alewis> jonathan: this is fairly esoteric
16:45:10 <alewis> jacek, jonathan: should we be describing receiver behavior?
16:45:44 <alewis> arthur: it's not about behavior, it's about the appearance of the message on the wire, and whether that can be unambiguous.
16:46:26 <alewis> jonathan: is this really worth fixing?
16:46:55 <alewis> jacek: interop problem appears when two different services are created from the same wsdl, and they differ in how they handle missing bits.
16:47:16 <alewis> jonathan: best way to handle that is to tell people not to combine default and nillable.
16:47:26 <alewis> arthur: add an assertion (a should)
16:48:05 <alewis> youenn, jonathan: maybe just change "must" in proposal to "should" ?
16:48:44 <Zakim> -Roberto
16:49:48 <alewis> jonathan: want this resolved.  maybe no one really cares and it could be closed with no action?
16:50:03 <Zakim> +Paul_Downey
16:50:28 <alewis> arthur: prefer to err on the side of interop rather than flexibility.
16:51:12 <alewis> jonathan: reiterate proposal in email, with grammatical cleanup and the additional should.
16:52:08 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 146 closed with the email proposal from jonathan, as modified.
16:52:30 <alewis> topic: CR 147
16:52:50 <alewis> the safety flag as semantics.
16:52:50 <pauld> scribe: pauld
16:53:49 <pauld> jacek: introduces the issue, WSDL doesn't describe semantics, apart from "safety" sawsdl is a framework for annotating WSDL with semantics
16:54:37 <pauld> .. as chair of the SAWSDL WG i believe our specification is a better mechanism than the WSDL WG defined annotation
16:55:09 <pauld> arthur: I don't agree it's semantic, it allows you to understand when you can use GET
16:55:27 <pauld> marsh: I thought the use-case was to flag POST
16:55:47 <pauld> jacek: and you can't explicitly say an operation is NOT safe
16:56:01 <Zakim> -Charlton
16:56:33 <pauld> marsh: if an operation is known not to be safe, then you can't bind to GET
16:56:53 <pauld> .. it's a syntax discussion, and the impact on our component model
16:57:13 <pauld> .. we should be aware it could be hard to use and changes our syntax
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16:57:48 <pauld> marsh: my personal position is it is a semantic annotation and cleaner in an extension, and the GET is a small feature
16:57:54 <Zakim> +??P1
16:58:17 <pauld> .. we may receive comments from the TAG if we removed our safety feature
16:59:45 <alewis> scribe: alewis
17:00:05 <alewis> paul: it seems clearer if it is left to the sawsdl working group
17:00:13 <alewis> jonathan: can we leave this to another working group at this stage?
17:01:10 <alewis> jonathan: an alternative is to have sawsdl define on top of the existing safety property, so there would be two syntaxes for the same property.
17:02:21 <alewis> paul: would be nice to remove, though, so that there's no possible confusion, and it can't get lost.
17:02:58 <alewis> jonathan: tag likes safety to be visible and easy to use; maybe better to do it as one of several semantic annotations, but might be late to do it.
17:03:42 <alewis> jacek: proposes actually asking the tag whether this could be moved to sawsdl, and to delay resolution until they respond.
17:04:14 <alewis> jonathan, jacek: note that this is not dropping something that is not at risk, but moving it from one CR to another CR.
17:04:39 <alewis> ACTION: Jacek to approach TAG on subject of moving "safety" annotation from WSDL specification to SAWSDL
17:04:52 <pauld> presumably the SAWSDL URI could have value outside of WSDL, so the TAG might prefer such a solution
17:04:59 <alewis> topic: cr 129
17:05:24 <alewis> instead of generic "message label", replace with "in" and "out".
17:05:46 <asir> +1 to close without any action
17:06:03 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 129 closed with no action (based on misinterpretation of message labels)
17:07:22 <alewis> topic: CR 132: should have a should that says that only elements which are appropriate to a given operation should be allowed.
17:07:54 <Jonathan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0000.html
17:08:18 <alewis> jonathan posts url of mail from arthur containing a shorter formulation
17:08:40 <Zakim> +m2
17:09:10 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 132 closed with the first two assertions from the original mail, last two from arthur's amendment.
17:10:30 <alewis> topic: CR 136: resolved as editorial
17:10:50 <alewis> topic: CR 137: propose resolution as editorial, typographical
17:11:15 <alewis> topic: CR 138: propose resolution as editorial
17:11:44 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 136, 137, 138 resolved as editorial
17:12:57 <alewis> jacek: wait, isn't this about the property, so it *isn't* actually a union?  property always populated with specifics.
17:14:58 <alewis> question of whether #any or #none make sense.  argument is that it doesn't make sense, since there's no point in defining a fault if you don't actually define it.
17:15:45 <alewis> jacek: but #other still makes sense.  and therefore we need to change the content model, modeling it on interface message reference.
17:15:46 <monica2> monica2 has joined #ws-desc
17:16:14 <alewis> replace current with #other or #element.
17:16:54 <Zakim> -Paul_Downey
17:17:38 <alewis> general agreement that #any and #none actually do make sense in this context.
17:17:46 <alewis> arthur: in that case, it's exactly parallel to message?
17:18:19 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 138 to be resolved by making fault references identical to interface message references.
17:19:45 <alewis> s/fault references/faults/
17:21:06 <alewis> topic: CR 139: objection to definition/description of wsdl in various places in the spec.
17:22:13 <alewis> jacek: procedural not used elsewhere, document-oriented not used elsewhere.
17:23:14 <alewis> jacek: network service also only used in part two abstract.
17:23:39 <alewis> jacek: modify abstract in part two to match part one.  wsdl is a language for describing web services.
17:25:17 <alewis> RESOLVED: CR 139 closed as editorial, editors instructed to make part two use same definition as part one.
17:28:16 <Arthur> Concerning the previous issue on the Abstract, we should refer to http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-arch/ for the definition of Web Service
17:28:40 <Arthur> i.e. CR139
17:30:01 <alewis> jonathan: there's a header that canon and wsos2 are both using; just add it, since it aids interop?
17:30:27 <alewis> jacek: no, this is an entity header; can't be used in this fashion.
17:32:08 <Arthur> CR 148 I think Amy
17:32:17 <alewis> ACTION: jacek to investigate soap and http with respect to soap action header
17:33:21 <TonyR> action 2=
17:33:32 <Zakim> -Allen
17:33:33 <Zakim> -JacekK
17:33:34 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
17:33:35 <Zakim> -m2
17:33:36 <Zakim> -[Canon]
17:33:38 <Zakim> -Arthur
17:33:40 <Zakim> -Gilbert_Pilz
17:33:42 <Zakim> -TonyR
17:33:44 <Zakim> -asir
17:34:05 <Zakim> -Plh
17:34:12 <Arthur> Arthur has left #ws-desc
17:34:13 <TonyR> TonyR has left #ws-desc
17:34:18 <Zakim> -alewis
17:34:19 <Zakim> WS_DescWG()11:00AM has ended
17:34:21 <Zakim> Attendees were alewis, JacekK, +1.541.752.aaaa, Roberto, Arthur, Jonathan_Marsh, Allen, Charlton, TonyR, [Canon], Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Paul_Downey, asir, m2
17:34:23 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:34:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:35:00 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, set log world
17:35:02 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:35:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:35:31 <Jonathan> Meeting: WS Description WG telcon
17:35:38 <Jonathan> Chair: Jonathan
17:36:10 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:36:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:52:05 <pauld> pauld has left #ws-desc
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22:13:55 <plh> rrsagent, bye
22:13:55 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-actions.rdf :
22:13:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jonathan to forward comments on one-way mep to XMLP working group [1]
22:13:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T16-08-37
22:13:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION:  [2]
22:13:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T16-34-30
22:13:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jacek to approach TAG on subject of moving "safety" annotation from WSDL specification to SAWSDL [3]
22:13:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T17-04-39
22:13:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jacek to investigate soap and http with respect to soap action header [4]
22:13:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T17-32-17
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