IRC log of wai-wcag on 2007-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:57:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

20:57:48 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-irc

20:57:55 [ben]

RRSAgent, do not start a new log

20:58:01 [ben]

RRSAgent, make log world

20:58:14 [ben]

zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG

20:58:14 [Zakim]

ok, ben, I see WAI_WCAG()3:00PM already started

20:58:28 [ben]

Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon

20:58:35 [ben]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2007JanMar/0068.html

20:58:41 [ben]

Chair: Gregg_Vanderheiden, Loretta_Guarino_Reid

20:58:45 [ben]

ScribeOptions: -scribeOnly

20:58:53 [ben]

Regrets: Don_Evans, Tim_Boland

20:58:58 [ben]

agenda+ Announcements, Questions, and Updates

20:59:03 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended

20:59:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were

20:59:05 [ben]

agenda+ Conformance Survey for 01 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070201conformance/results>

20:59:14 [ben]

agenda+ Conformance Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/02082007conformance/results>

20:59:25 [Loretta]

Loretta has joined #wai-wcag

20:59:27 [ben]

agenda+ Team A Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teama08feb2007/results>

20:59:29 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started

20:59:34 [ben]

agenda+ Editors Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/08feb2007editorz/results>

20:59:42 [ben]

agenda+ Team C Proposals for 8 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070208-teamc/results>

21:00:26 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone?

21:00:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:00:51 [ben]

zakim, is WAI_WCAG

21:00:51 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'is WAI_WCAG', ben

21:00:59 [ben]

zakim, this is WAI_WCAG

21:00:59 [Zakim]

ben, this was already WAI_WCAG()3:00PM

21:01:00 [Zakim]

ok, ben; that matches WAI_WCAG()3:00PM

21:01:06 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone

21:01:06 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ben

21:01:11 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone?

21:01:11 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:02:26 [ben]

zakim, list conferences

21:02:27 [Zakim]

I see WAI_WCAG()3:00PM, Team_(simile)19:57Z, GA_SVGWG()3:00PM active

21:02:28 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are WAI_EOWG(UMTF)2:00PM, XML_QueryWG(ttf)3:00PM, WAI_UAWG()2:00PM, VB_VBWG(SIV)4:00PM

21:04:00 [bengt]

zakim, this is wai_wcag

21:04:00 [Zakim]

bengt, this was already WAI_WCAG()3:00PM

21:04:02 [Zakim]

ok, bengt; that matches WAI_WCAG()3:00PM

21:04:14 [Makoto]

Makoto has joined #wai-wcag

21:04:18 [bengt]

strange zakim is nutty

21:05:07 [bengt]

zakim, who is making noise ?

21:05:13 [becka11y]

scribe: becka11y

21:05:22 [Zakim]

bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 12 (67%), ??P13 (44%), ??P15 (20%), ??P18 (10%), ??P19 (93%)

21:05:33 [Christophe]

zakim, mute me

21:05:33 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

21:05:38 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone?

21:05:38 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:06:28 [bengt]

kill zakim and restart ?

21:06:34 [becka11y]

q+

21:06:41 [becka11y]

q-

21:06:54 [ben]

zakim, bye

21:06:54 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

21:07:26 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #wai-wcag

21:07:33 [ben]

zakim, list conferences

21:07:33 [Zakim]

I see WAI_WCAG()3:00PM, Team_(simile)19:57Z, GA_SVGWG()3:00PM active

21:07:35 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are WAI_EOWG(UMTF)2:00PM, XML_QueryWG(ttf)3:00PM, WAI_UAWG()2:00PM, VB_VBWG(SIV)4:00PM

21:07:43 [ben]

zakim, this is WAI_WCAG

21:07:43 [Zakim]

ok, ben; that matches WAI_WCAG()3:00PM

21:07:48 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone?

21:07:48 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:07:56 [bengt]

zakim, who is making noise ?

21:08:09 [Sorcha]

zakim, mute me

21:08:09 [Zakim]

sorry, Sorcha, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

21:08:10 [Zakim]

bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 14 (19%), ??P13 (7%), ??P14 (89%), ??P25 (36%), ??P26 (4%)

21:09:27 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 1

21:09:27 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

21:09:33 [rellero]

I have troubles connecting with skype

21:09:35 [Sorcha]

zakim, mute me

21:09:35 [Zakim]

sorry, Sorcha, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

21:09:42 [ben]

agenda+ Announcements, Questions, and Updates

21:09:46 [Sorcha]

zakim, mute Sorcha_Moore

21:09:46 [Zakim]

sorry, Sorcha, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Sorcha_Moore

21:09:47 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 1

21:09:48 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Announcements, Questions, and Updates" taken up [from ben]

21:09:50 [becka11y]

Attendees: Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Gregg_Vanderheiden, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Sean_Hayes, Sorcha_Moore, Cynthia_Shelly, Lorett_Guarino-Reid, Bruce_Bailey, Makoto_Ueki

21:09:56 [ben]

agenda+ Conformance Survey for 01 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070201conformance/results>

21:09:59 [rellero]

why me not?

21:10:04 [ben]

agenda+ Conformance Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/02082007conformance/results>

21:10:25 [rellero]

thanks

21:10:47 [ben]

agenda+ Team A Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teama08feb2007/results>

21:10:55 [ben]

agenda+ Editors Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/08feb2007editorz/results>

21:11:02 [ben]

agenda+ Team C Proposals for 8 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070208-teamc/results>

21:11:31 [bengt]

zakim, who is making noise ?

21:11:45 [Zakim]

bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 16 (50%), ??P13 (20%), ??P14 (41%), ??P15 (39%), ??P18 (30%), ??P19 (99%)

21:11:56 [becka11y]

Additional Attendees: Roberto Ellero, Christophe Strobbe, Don Evans

21:12:01 [rellero]

i am connected with skype now

21:12:03 [ben]

Regrets- Don_Evans

21:14:23 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, who's making noise

21:14:23 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who's making noise', David_MacDonald

21:14:38 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, who's making noise?

21:14:52 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 16 (38%), ??P14 (10%), ??P15 (56%), ??P19 (99%)

21:15:34 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, mute P19

21:15:34 [Zakim]

sorry, David_MacDonald, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P19

21:15:44 [ben]

zakim, mute ??P19

21:15:44 [Zakim]

sorry, ben, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P19

21:15:50 [rellero]

zakim, mute P19

21:15:50 [Zakim]

sorry, rellero, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P19

21:16:04 [bengt]

zakim, mute ?P19

21:16:04 [Zakim]

sorry, bengt, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P19

21:16:14 [ben]

zakim, mute P19

21:16:14 [Zakim]

sorry, ben, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P19

21:16:26 [bengt]

zakim, who is making noise ?

21:16:28 [rellero]

try to disconnect but i am without mic

21:16:37 [rellero]

disconnected

21:16:43 [Zakim]

bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P14 (49%), ??P17 (53%), ??P18 (10%), ??P19 (46%), ??P21 (13%), ??P25 (4%)

21:16:45 [bengt]

not rellero ...

21:16:48 [rellero]

ok

21:17:20 [ben]

zakim, ??P19 is noisy

21:17:20 [Zakim]

sorry, ben, I do not recognize a party named '??P19'

21:17:20 [rellero]

newly here

21:17:44 [bengt]

doesnt work zakim needs to restart

21:18:12 [bengt]

make zakim, restart

21:18:43 [Loretta]

Ben, do we need to wait before calling back in?

21:19:12 [Gregg]

call in

21:19:16 [Gregg]

no difference

21:19:25 [Loretta]

still noisy?

21:19:34 [Gregg]

no

21:19:36 [bengt]

restart zakim again ?

21:20:09 [ben]

zakim, who is on the phone?

21:20:09 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:20:10 [rellero]

i am connected

21:20:16 [bengt]

doesnt seem that it talks to the pbx properly

21:21:11 [bengt]

there was a mysterious error in the beginning when it thougt the conference ended with no one calling in

21:21:33 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #wai-wcag

21:21:43 [amy]

amy has joined #wai-wcag

21:21:45 [RalphS]

zakim, list conferences

21:21:45 [Zakim]

I see WAI_WCAG()3:00PM, GA_SVGWG()3:00PM active

21:21:46 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time are XML_QueryWG(ttf)3:00PM, RWC_WAPI()4:30PM, WAI_UAWG()2:00PM, VB_VBWG(SIV)4:00PM

21:21:52 [RalphS]

zakim, who's on the call?

21:21:52 [Zakim]

On the phone I see no one

21:22:01 [RalphS]

zakim, which conference is this?

21:22:01 [Zakim]

this is WAI_WCAG()3:00PM conference code 9224

21:22:09 [RalphS]

sigh

21:22:35 [becka11y]

Target for next last call draft is April 11.

21:22:37 [ben]

zakim, close this item

21:22:39 [amy]

the WOC doesn't seem to recognize anyone -- or gives only guest #s (I imagine you noticed this already)

21:22:40 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

21:22:41 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

21:22:42 [Zakim]

2. Conformance Survey for 01 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070201conformance/results> [from ben]

21:22:57 [ben]

UC items are: LC-1244, LC-1150, LC-1038, LC-813, LC-638, LC-539, LC-482, LC-614, LC-662, LC-812, LC-831, LC-897, LC-898, LC-899, LC-919, LC-1242, LC-1243, LC-1266, and LC-1303, LC-1211, LC-1065, LC-949, LC-1152, LC-1271, LC-1267, LC-908, LC-1034, LC-864, LC-751, LC-1504, LC-1410, LC-1071, LC-1009, LC-896, LC-745, LC-808, LC-1179, LC-1319, and LC-1493, LC-488, LC-719, LC-757, LC- 568, LC-1057, LC-1294, LC-1167

21:23:14 [RalphS]

it looks like one of the servers needs to be rebooted

21:23:20 [becka11y]

Resolution: accept items with unanimous consent on the survey: LC-1244, LC-1150, LC-1038, LC-813, LC-638, LC-539, LC-482, LC-614, LC-662, LC-812, LC-831, LC-897, LC-898, LC-899, LC-919, LC-1242, LC-1243, LC-1266, and LC-1303, LC-1211, LC-1065, LC-949, LC-1152, LC-1271, LC-1267, LC-908, LC-1034, LC-864, LC-751, LC-1504, LC-1410, LC-1071, LC-1009, LC-896, LC-745, LC-808, LC-1179, LC-1319, and LC-1493, LC-488, LC-719, LC-757, LC- 568, LC-1057, LC-1294, LC-1167

21:23:21 [RalphS]

but if I reboot it now, Zakim-bot will restart

21:23:33 [RalphS]

so I'll have to do it tomorrow morning when there are no conferences in progress

21:23:35 [RalphS]

sorry, folks

21:24:03 [ben]

zakim, take up next agendum

21:24:03 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Conformance Survey for 01 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070201conformance/results>" taken up [from ben]

21:25:13 [becka11y]

Topic: Level AAA conformance

21:25:17 [amy]

amy has left #wai-wcag

21:26:20 [becka11y]

Resolution: accept Level AAA conformance issues LC-516, LC-533, LC-605, LC-621, LC-691, LC-888, LC-1023, LC-1264, and LC-1275 as ammended

21:26:35 [becka11y]

Topic: LC-507

21:28:01 [Loretta]

q+ sean

21:30:22 [Gregg]

q+

21:36:32 [Gregg]

ack sean

21:39:48 [Loretta]

ack Gregg

21:41:06 [Loretta]

q+

21:43:47 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, who's making noise?

21:44:00 [Gregg]

ack l

21:44:04 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P16 (4%), ??P18 (54%), ??P19 (4%), ??P25 (35%)

21:45:55 [Loretta]

q+

21:46:40 [Gregg]

ack l

21:47:12 [Gregg]

q+

21:47:52 [David_MacDonald]

q+

21:51:54 [Loretta]

ack Gregg

21:54:55 [Gregg]

ack d

21:55:12 [Loretta]

q+

21:55:16 [Gregg]

q+

21:55:25 [Andi]

q+

21:56:12 [Gregg]

ack l

21:57:38 [Gregg]

ack g

21:57:41 [Gregg]

ack a

22:06:30 [Loretta]

q+ cynthia

22:07:05 [Gregg]

ack c

22:07:08 [Loretta]

q+

22:08:49 [Gregg]

ACK L

22:14:09 [becka11y]

Action: Don, Loretta, Sean, David, Andi to take issue 507 and user contributed content and come back with a proposal (or at least progress report) by Feb 15

22:14:16 [becka11y]

Topic: LC-750

22:26:31 [becka11y]

/me Non Accessibility-supported content technologies can be used if the information and functionality provided through the non-qualifying technology is also provided using accessibility-enabled Web technologies. In addition, the presence of the non-AeWT must not block the ability of the users to access the content via the accessible technologies. Specifically, the following must be true:

22:26:31 [becka11y]

All content and functionality are available using only accessibility-enabled Web technologies.

22:31:38 [becka11y]

resolution: accept 750 as ammended: Non Accessibility-supported content technologies (A-sCT) can be used if the information and functionality provided through the non A-sCT is also provided using A-sCT. In addition, the presence of the non-A-sCT must not block the ability of the users to access the content via the A-sCT. Specifically, the following must be true:

22:32:02 [becka11y]

Topic: 880

22:32:22 [becka11y]

Resolution: accept 880 as ammended

22:32:46 [becka11y]

Topic: 924

22:35:18 [becka11y]

Resolution: close 924 as ammended

22:35:28 [ben]

scribe: ben

22:35:31 [ben]

zakim, close this topic

22:35:32 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'close this topic', ben

22:35:36 [ben]

zakim, close this item

22:35:36 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

22:35:37 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

22:35:38 [Zakim]

3. Conformance Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/02082007conformance/results> [from ben]

22:35:42 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 3

22:35:42 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Conformance Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/02082007conformance/results>" taken up [from ben]

22:36:07 [ben]

Topic: Aggregated Content (LC-464, LC-1222, and LC-1318)

22:38:35 [becka11y]

scribe: becka11y

22:39:16 [Loretta]

q+

22:45:07 [Loretta]

q+ David

22:45:11 [Gregg]

acj l

22:45:20 [Gregg]

ack l

22:45:45 [bengt]

it is starting to become usual to have media players within javascript

22:46:45 [bengt]

there are several techniques to do that, ajax , dwr and so on, javascript

22:47:41 [bengt]

oh yes

22:48:12 [bengt]

usually a simpler format than mpeg

22:48:29 [Gregg]

ack d

22:48:50 [Loretta]

q+ bruce

22:49:25 [Gregg]

ack b

22:53:36 [becka11y]

Action: Don, Sean, Loretta, David, Andi, Gregg to meet and sreview Aggregated Content (LC-464, LC-1222, and LC-1318) to determine if a better proposal is possible (or at least progress report) by Feb 15

22:53:43 [becka11y]

Topic: 565

22:54:14 [ben]

zakim, close this item

22:54:14 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

22:54:16 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

22:54:17 [Zakim]

4. Team A Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teama08feb2007/results> [from ben]

22:54:56 [becka11y]

Resolution: close 565 as ammended

22:55:35 [becka11y]

Topic: baseline, validity - issue 648

22:56:29 [David_MacDonald]

zakim, who's making noise?

22:56:36 [Loretta]

backgruond sound is drowning you out, Gregg

22:56:46 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (45%), ??P16 (99%), ??P17 (9%)

22:57:43 [Andi]

k - well - I'll stay off then

22:58:53 [becka11y]

Action: Michael to create a document about testing WCAG to be part of the support materials (related to issue LC-648).

23:01:29 [becka11y]

Resolution: close 648 as ammended.

23:01:49 [becka11y]

Topic: Issue 649

23:02:18 [becka11y]

Resolution: close 649 as ammended

23:04:04 [David_MacDonald]

+q

23:06:42 [bengt]

think it is ben ...

23:08:59 [becka11y]

Topic: Issue 857

23:09:16 [bengt]

bengt has left #wai-wcag

23:12:22 [Sorcha]

Sorcha has left #wai-wcag

23:20:08 [becka11y]

Resolution: Issue 857 remains open

23:20:38 [becka11y]

in search for better wording

23:21:26 [becka11y]

Topic: 902

23:22:25 [becka11y]

Resolution: close issue 902 as ammended

23:22:29 [becka11y]

Topic: 1245

23:22:51 [ben]

zakim, close this item

23:22:51 [Zakim]

I do not know what agendum had been taken up, ben

23:25:09 [becka11y]

resolution: accept 1245 as ammended

23:25:36 [ben]

zakim, agenda?

23:25:36 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:

23:25:37 [Zakim]

4. Team A Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teama08feb2007/results> [from ben]

23:25:40 [Zakim]

5. Editors Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/08feb2007editorz/results> [from ben]

23:25:42 [ben]

zakim, close agendum 4

23:25:42 [Zakim]

6. Team C Proposals for 8 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070208-teamc/results> [from ben]

23:25:45 [Zakim]

agendum 4, Team A Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teama08feb2007/results>, closed

23:25:47 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

23:25:49 [Zakim]

5. Editors Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/08feb2007editorz/results> [from ben]

23:25:49 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 5

23:25:49 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Editors Survey for 08 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/08feb2007editorz/results>" taken up [from ben]

23:26:34 [becka11y]

Topic: Issue 652

23:30:03 [becka11y]

Resolution: close issue 652 as proposed

23:30:19 [becka11y]

Topic: issue 862

23:34:14 [Loretta]

q+ john

23:34:52 [Gregg]

ackd

23:34:54 [Gregg]

ack d

23:34:56 [Gregg]

ack j

23:35:07 [Gregg]

q+ john

23:35:14 [Gregg]

q+ david

23:36:36 [Gregg]

ack j

23:38:52 [Gregg]

ack d

23:45:09 [becka11y]

q+

23:46:46 [becka11y]

ack b

23:52:07 [becka11y]

Resolution: issue 862 remains open

23:52:43 [becka11y]

Topic: LC 895, 1263: Web page examples

23:55:59 [becka11y]

Action: Gregg , John, David to clean up web page definition

23:56:18 [becka11y]

LC 895, 1263: Web page examples remain open

23:56:22 [ben]

zakim, close this item

23:56:22 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

23:56:23 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

23:56:24 [Zakim]

6. Team C Proposals for 8 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070208-teamc/results> [from ben]

23:56:27 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 6

23:56:27 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Team C Proposals for 8 February <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20070208-teamc/results>" taken up [from ben]

23:57:02 [becka11y]

Topic: 1169

00:03:24 [ben]

Present: Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Gregg_Vanderheiden, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Sean_Hayes, Sorcha_Moore, Cynthia_Shelly, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bruce_Bailey, Roberto_Ellero, Christophe_Strobbe, Makoto_Ueki, Don_Evans

00:04:18 [becka11y]

Meeting ended before resolution to 1169. Team C survey will be re-opened.

00:04:25 [Loretta]

ben are you there?

00:04:27 [ben]

I can generate minutes

00:04:48 [becka11y]

becka11y has left #wai-wcag

00:05:06 [Makoto]

Makoto has left #wai-wcag

00:05:35 [ben]

zakim, bye

00:05:35 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

00:05:37 [ben]

RRSAgent, bye

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Don, Loretta, Sean, David, Andi to take issue 507 and user contributed content and come back with a proposal (or at least progress report) by Feb 15 [1]

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-14-09

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Don, Sean, Loretta, David, Andi, Gregg to meet and sreview Aggregated Content (LC-464, LC-1222, and LC-1318) to determine if a better proposal is possible (or at least progress report) by Feb 15 [2]

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-53-36

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael to create a document about testing WCAG to be part of the support materials (related to issue LC-648). [3]

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-58-53

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gregg , John, David to clean up web page definition [4]

00:05:37 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-wai-wcag-irc#T23-55-59