13:48:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
13:48:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-irc
13:48:52 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF in XHTML TF
13:49:48 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0004.html
13:50:40 <RalphS> Previous: 2007-01-29 http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html
13:57:15 <Zakim> SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:57:23 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
13:57:36 <Steven> gosh, look at the time :-)
13:57:39 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:59:06 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:59:21 <michaelhausenblas> michaelhausenblas has joined #htmltf
13:59:52 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:59:56 <RalphS> zakim, nick michaelhausenblas is Michael
13:59:56 <Zakim> ok, RalphS, I now associate michaelhausenblas with Michael_Hausenblas
14:00:02 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
14:00:41 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:00:41 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:00:43 <Zakim> +Steven
14:02:16 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
14:03:30 <RalphS> agenda+ Time of calls March 12-25
14:04:23 <michaelhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:04:26 <Zakim> +??P16
14:04:33 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:04:33 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:04:35 <RalphS> Scribe: Michael
14:04:46 <RalphS> scribenick: michaelhausenblas
14:05:23 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: Spoke at W3C eGov meeting
14:05:37 <michaelhausenblas> ... policy oriented people
14:05:59 <michaelhausenblas> ... Ivan spoke about RDFa as well
14:06:07 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3c.es/Eventos/2007/eGov/ European W3C Symposium on eGovernment
14:06:46 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: In Sep 2006 we planned to submit to dev track 
14:07:10 <michaelhausenblas> ... now a new deadline: XXXX 
14:07:20 <benadida> s/XXXX/Feb 12/
14:07:32 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: I'm planning to participate
14:07:55 <michaelhausenblas> ... in Banff/Canada
14:08:06 <Steven> My talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/02-01-steven-egov/
14:08:19 <michaelhausenblas> Ben: There are a lot of things to point out
14:09:10 <benadida> ex: http://ben.adida.net/research/
14:09:10 <Steven> Ivan's talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0202-Gijon-IH/
14:10:00 <RalphS> -> http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/ Simile Exhibit
14:10:40 <michaelhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html michaelhausenblas
14:12:15 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Treck
14:12:26 <michaelhausenblas> s/Treck/Track
14:12:53 <benadida> quick point: Exhibit is not my project, I take no credit for it :)
14:13:29 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: machine tags at flickr
14:13:57 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0012.html Machine Tags [Karl Dubost]
14:14:06 <michaelhausenblas> ... namespace are there but not yet URIs
14:15:30 <michaelhausenblas> Welcome to the Semantic Web, flickr 
14:15:54 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: now, a window of opportunity is open
14:16:41 <michaelhausenblas> Ben: We should talk to the flickr guys and invite them to go for RDFa
14:17:22 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags
14:17:36 <michaelhausenblas> Topic: 1. Action Item Review
14:17:44 <michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary
14:18:11 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case production [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]
14:18:14 <michaelhausenblas> -- done
14:18:26 <michaelhausenblas> Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
14:18:31 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:18:37 <Steven> Devtrack deadline is Feb 16th according to website
14:18:49 <michaelhausenblas> Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
14:18:52 <michaelhausenblas> -- drop
14:19:01 <michaelhausenblas> Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
14:19:06 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:19:15 <michaelhausenblas> Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
14:19:18 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:19:42 <Steven> http://www2007.org/cfp-Developers.php
14:20:32 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
14:20:44 <michaelhausenblas> -- done
14:21:00 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
14:21:03 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:21:13 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload problem [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]
14:21:17 <michaelhausenblas> -- done
14:21:44 <michaelhausenblas>  ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
14:21:59 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/open new (tracker) issues list
14:22:11 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:22:15 <RalphS> Ralph: I have a patch written by a summer student to get tracker to output RDF
14:22:20 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
14:22:27 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:22:39 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
14:22:42 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:22:54 <michaelhausenblas> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
14:22:58 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:23:19 <michaelhausenblas> Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
14:23:29 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:23:40 <michaelhausenblas> Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
14:23:45 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:24:02 <michaelhausenblas> Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
14:24:09 <michaelhausenblas> -- continues
14:24:25 <RalphS> Michael: I wanted to transfer the closed issues
14:24:25 <michaelhausenblas> Michael will make a single issue for all closed issues
14:24:39 <michaelhausenblas> Topic: 2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark)
14:24:45 <RalphS> Ralph: one closed issue pointing to the HTML page would suffice for me
14:25:22 <michaelhausenblas> Mark: I have been in contact with Sean
14:26:33 <michaelhausenblas> ... will try to push work forward
14:27:11 <michaelhausenblas> Ben: This is a cruicial part of the spec
14:27:24 <michaelhausenblas> ... approx schedule?
14:27:57 <michaelhausenblas> Mark: Unfortunatly not - might help if Steven jumps in as well
14:28:25 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: Sean and  I have some 5 drafts on the edge
14:28:45 <michaelhausenblas> ... I'll try to bring it forward
14:29:21 <michaelhausenblas> Ben: Is it possible by end of week to have the status?
14:29:32 <michaelhausenblas> Steven: Will put it on the HTML-WG agenda
14:29:59 <michaelhausenblas> Ben: Good. Please keep us up-to-date
14:30:17 <michaelhausenblas> Topic: 3. Test Cases Update (Michael)
14:30:27 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
14:30:28 <michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite
14:31:22 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0013.html [RDFa] Test Cases  [Michael]
14:32:06 <RalphS> Michael: I raise several questions:
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... + What is the host (HTML, XHTML, etc.) for RDFa?
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... + What parts of the spec do we test?
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... + How do we partition tests? cf. [1] 
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... + Will we have a (semi-)automated test-environment?
14:32:15 <RalphS> ... + Technical issues (test result format: N3, NTriple, etc.)
14:32:16 <RalphS> ... + Legal issues (license)
14:32:37 <RalphS> Steven: what we are testing is whether the page generates the triples we expect, right?
14:32:50 <RalphS> Michael: yes, but we're testing the transformations
14:33:05 <RalphS> ... it makes sense to align with the RDF test cases
14:33:20 <RalphS> Steven: W3C has two sorts of test suites;
14:33:32 <RalphS> ... the majority test the _specification, some test _implementations_
14:33:45 <RalphS> ... we should decide which of these we want to do before we decide how to go about it
14:34:10 <RalphS> Michael: per the QA test development FAQ terminology, I think we're going for conformance testing
14:34:36 <RalphS> Steven: one of the questions we will need to answer is whether the spec can exit CR
14:34:41 <michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2005/01/test-faq#why
14:34:45 <RalphS> ... we need to show interoperability test results for that
14:35:25 <RalphS> ... to test the specification, for each part we would identify the assertions and produce a test showing whether an implementation really does this
14:35:36 <RalphS> ... what QA calls 'conformance testing'
14:37:03 <RalphS> Michael: what about the host language?
14:37:11 <RalphS> Ben: our task is RDF in XHTML
14:37:20 <RalphS> ... so I think our tests should be hosted in XHTML 1.1
14:37:35 <RalphS> Steven: sounds good
14:37:41 <RalphS> Mark: agree
14:37:44 <michaelhausenblas> so it reads XHTML 1.1 + RDFa module
14:38:24 <RalphS> Michael: are we chartered to produce a test suite?
14:38:52 <RalphS> Ben: yes, SWD WG is chartered to produce an XHTML 1.1 module
14:39:19 <RalphS> Ralph: test suites are a general expectation, there will not be any objection [based on charter] to us working on it
14:39:48 <RalphS> Ben: add tests [from the RDF test suite] for those features we know we're going to support
14:40:01 <michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite/TestTypes
14:40:03 <RalphS> ... later add others as we resolve open issues of which RDF features to include
14:40:23 <RalphS> Michael: on partitioning of tests, I took the structure from the RDF Syntax document
14:40:47 <RalphS> ... or we could do some other partitioning
14:41:11 <RalphS> Ben: [following Syntax document] looks like a good partitioning
14:41:28 <RalphS> Steven: for CR testing, following the syntax doc works best
14:42:01 <RalphS> ... tests can be explicitly linked to the part of the spec you're trying to test
14:42:55 <RalphS> Ben: it's harder to test my javascript library against conformance tests than it is to test Elias' library
14:43:19 <RalphS> Michael: Elias' extractor should be tested against our test suite
14:43:41 <RalphS> Ben: the difference is that Elias' extractor have a REST interface
14:44:04 <RalphS> ... other implementations, like my javascript implementation, don't have REST interfaces
14:44:25 <RalphS> ... we could propose automated testing for things that do have REST interfaces
14:44:35 <RalphS> Mark: what about SPARQL-like tests?
14:44:49 <RalphS> ... "given this input, here's what you should return"
14:45:06 <RalphS> ... i.e. define our tests in terms of SPARQL
14:45:14 <RalphS> Michael: is SPARQL close enough to REC?
14:45:17 <RalphS> Ralph: yes :)
14:45:48 <RalphS> Mark: don't require implementing all of SPARQL but could be a way to show that the outputs are the same even if they come from different environments
14:46:00 <RalphS> Ben: I'm not sure this solves my problem; my implementation runs inside a browswer
14:46:17 <RalphS> ... I don't know how to drive a test in a way that would respect javascript cross-domain limitations
14:46:28 <RalphS> Mark: I'm not suggesting that you retrieve data in the same manner as SPARQL
14:46:41 <RalphS> ... make a test file that contains lots of RDFa and a reference to your script library
14:47:12 <RalphS> ... the script runs and creates a bunch of RDF output, then we query that output and compare the query results against another implementation
14:47:24 <RalphS> Ben: there's still some custom code I have to write for my implementation
14:48:21 <RalphS> ... it's more complicated for us to specify how to do this than for Elias' libraries
14:48:26 <RalphS> ... possible, just a lot more work
14:48:47 <RalphS> Michael: propose that for the first phase we only do semi-automatic interface for REST implementations
14:49:08 <RalphS> Mark: I mention SPARQL because it's not clear what REST has to do with our work
14:49:26 <RalphS> ... could say instead that if you run a query over the output of an RDFa tool you get these triples
14:49:32 <RalphS> ... has nothing to do with the transport
14:49:41 <RalphS> Ben: the transport is just a test implementation method
14:50:01 <RalphS> ... the javascript RDFa implementation is meant as a personal [tool]
14:50:24 <RalphS> Mark: understand that.  If you think of this as a mathematical proof, how do we prove that the expected triples are generated?
14:50:46 <RalphS> ... it's a different thing to say that querying the result of RDFa extraction produces the following result
14:50:58 <RalphS> ... this allows a processor to produce additional triples that we might not know about
14:51:08 <RalphS> ... using SPARQL could hide a lot of implementation details
14:51:19 <RalphS> Ben: sounds like a different question beyond automation
14:51:42 <RalphS> ... you're proposing that we use SPARQL to automate tests rather than REST
14:52:07 <RalphS> Mark: yes.  I'm thinking about this because I've been playing around with Ivan's examples for the XML literal issue
14:52:20 <michaelhausenblas> q+ on test environment
14:52:21 <RalphS> ... it's easy to use SPARQL to decide if Ivan's examples conform
14:52:33 <RalphS> Ben: have to explain to developers how to produce RDFa
14:52:39 <michaelhausenblas> q+ to talk on test env
14:52:48 <RalphS> ... may be too much to have to tell them they need to buy-in to the whole RDF world
14:53:08 <RalphS> ... seems easy to say "it's just a big RDF triple store which you query" but that may be too much
14:53:33 <RalphS> Steven: just say 'if you query it, you get this' doesn't leave much to test
14:53:39 <RalphS> ... like looking for P element
14:53:52 <RalphS> Mark: would something fail if it produces 12 triples instead of 10?
14:54:12 <RalphS> Steven: no, we could just say that the implementation has to produce _at least_ these triples
14:55:03 <RalphS> Mark: the javascript bookmarklet could define the structure of json  but that would be very implementation-specific
14:55:16 <RalphS> Michael: I'd like to prepare a GUI sketch of an interface to a tester for next week
14:55:23 <RalphS> ... could then consider this in the light of SPARQL
14:55:40 <RalphS> ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for 12-Feb meeting
14:55:59 <RalphS> Ben: my main worry is making sure that RDFa is simple
14:56:08 <RalphS> ... simple enough for people to start adopting it
14:56:30 <RalphS> ... we don't want to force everyone to read every document published by the Semantic Web Working Groups
14:56:38 <RalphS> Mark: there can't be half measures about test suites
14:57:16 <RalphS> ... on the other hand, Joe PublicAuthor only needs a nicely laid out [HTML] page that shows what to expect; he doesn't need to be involved with a test suite
14:57:31 <RalphS> ... microformats current lack a validator; there's no way to validate that you get what you expect
14:57:33 <michaelhausenblas> http://xmlarmyknife.org/docs/rdf/rules/
14:57:42 <RalphS> Michael: agree ...
14:58:02 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:58:12 <benadida> scribenick: benadida
14:58:20 <benadida> Michael: NTriples might be easier to test
14:58:28 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
14:58:31 <benadida> ... legal issue, which license? Karl D. could help us there
14:59:01 <benadida> Steven: W3C software license
14:59:47 <benadida> Michael: we can postpone the legal discussion
14:59:58 <benadida> ... Wing and I will start working on the details of the test suite this week
15:00:19 <michaelhausenblas> Scribe: Michael
15:00:22 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231
15:00:30 <michaelhausenblas> Topic: 4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue
15:00:45 <michaelhausenblas> Continues via mail
15:03:45 <michaelhausenblas> Michael will look at SPARQL issues
15:04:56 <benadida> Mark: issue with language
15:05:05 <benadida> ... for equivalences
15:06:48 <michaelhausenblas> Topic: 5. overloading of @CLASS
15:06:59 <michaelhausenblas> next telecon
15:07:05 <michaelhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
15:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html michaelhausenblas
15:07:28 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:07:29 <Zakim> -Steven
15:07:31 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
15:07:35 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:07:37 <Zakim> SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:07:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_
15:07:47 <michaelhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public 
15:08:14 <Steven> If you need help Michael, just ping me
15:09:22 <michaelhausenblas> Thanks, Steven
15:09:33 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
15:09:53 <michaelhausenblas> I think I'm going to download th minutes and edit them, right?
15:10:21 <Steven> Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)
15:10:29 <Steven> oops
15:10:33 <Steven> s/Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)//