IRC log of htmltf on 2007-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:47 [RRSAgent]

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13:48:47 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-irc

13:48:52 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML TF

13:49:48 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0004.html

13:50:40 [RalphS]

Previous: 2007-01-29 http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html

13:57:15 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:57:23 [Zakim]

+Michael_Hausenblas

13:57:36 [Steven]

gosh, look at the time :-)

13:57:39 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:59:06 [benadida]

benadida has joined #htmltf

13:59:21 [michaelhausenblas]

michaelhausenblas has joined #htmltf

13:59:52 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:59:56 [RalphS]

zakim, nick michaelhausenblas is Michael

13:59:56 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS, I now associate michaelhausenblas with Michael_Hausenblas

14:00:02 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

14:00:41 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:41 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:43 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:02:16 [MarkB_]

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14:03:30 [RalphS]

agenda+ Time of calls March 12-25

14:04:23 [michaelhausenblas]

ScribeNick: mhausenblas

14:04:26 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:04:33 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:04:33 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:04:35 [RalphS]

Scribe: Michael

14:04:46 [RalphS]

scribenick: michaelhausenblas

14:05:23 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: Spoke at W3C eGov meeting

14:05:37 [michaelhausenblas]

... policy oriented people

14:05:59 [michaelhausenblas]

... Ivan spoke about RDFa as well

14:06:07 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3c.es/Eventos/2007/eGov/ European W3C Symposium on eGovernment

14:06:46 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: In Sep 2006 we planned to submit to dev track

14:07:10 [michaelhausenblas]

... now a new deadline: XXXX

14:07:20 [benadida]

s/XXXX/Feb 12/

14:07:32 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: I'm planning to participate

14:07:55 [michaelhausenblas]

... in Banff/Canada

14:08:06 [Steven]

My talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/02-01-steven-egov/

14:08:19 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben: There are a lot of things to point out

14:09:10 [benadida]

ex: http://ben.adida.net/research/

14:09:10 [Steven]

Ivan's talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0202-Gijon-IH/

14:10:00 [RalphS]

-> http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/ Simile Exhibit

14:10:40 [michaelhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:10:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html michaelhausenblas

14:12:15 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Treck

14:12:26 [michaelhausenblas]

s/Treck/Track

14:12:53 [benadida]

quick point: Exhibit is not my project, I take no credit for it :)

14:13:29 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: machine tags at flickr

14:13:57 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0012.html Machine Tags [Karl Dubost]

14:14:06 [michaelhausenblas]

... namespace are there but not yet URIs

14:15:30 [michaelhausenblas]

Welcome to the Semantic Web, flickr

14:15:54 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: now, a window of opportunity is open

14:16:41 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben: We should talk to the flickr guys and invite them to go for RDFa

14:17:22 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags

14:17:36 [michaelhausenblas]

Topic: 1. Action Item Review

14:17:44 [michaelhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary

14:18:11 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case production [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]

14:18:14 [michaelhausenblas]

-- done

14:18:26 [michaelhausenblas]

Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

14:18:31 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:18:37 [Steven]

Devtrack deadline is Feb 16th according to website

14:18:49 [michaelhausenblas]

Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

14:18:52 [michaelhausenblas]

-- drop

14:19:01 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

14:19:06 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:19:15 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]

14:19:18 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:19:42 [Steven]

http://www2007.org/cfp-Developers.php

14:20:32 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]

14:20:44 [michaelhausenblas]

-- done

14:21:00 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

14:21:03 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:21:13 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload problem [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]

14:21:17 [michaelhausenblas]

-- done

14:21:44 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]

14:21:59 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/open new (tracker) issues list

14:22:11 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:22:15 [RalphS]

Ralph: I have a patch written by a summer student to get tracker to output RDF

14:22:20 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]

14:22:27 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:22:39 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

14:22:42 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:22:54 [michaelhausenblas]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

14:22:58 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:23:19 [michaelhausenblas]

Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

14:23:29 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:23:40 [michaelhausenblas]

Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

14:23:45 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:24:02 [michaelhausenblas]

Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

14:24:09 [michaelhausenblas]

-- continues

14:24:25 [RalphS]

Michael: I wanted to transfer the closed issues

14:24:25 [michaelhausenblas]

Michael will make a single issue for all closed issues

14:24:39 [michaelhausenblas]

Topic: 2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark)

14:24:45 [RalphS]

Ralph: one closed issue pointing to the HTML page would suffice for me

14:25:22 [michaelhausenblas]

Mark: I have been in contact with Sean

14:26:33 [michaelhausenblas]

... will try to push work forward

14:27:11 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben: This is a cruicial part of the spec

14:27:24 [michaelhausenblas]

... approx schedule?

14:27:57 [michaelhausenblas]

Mark: Unfortunatly not - might help if Steven jumps in as well

14:28:25 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: Sean and I have some 5 drafts on the edge

14:28:45 [michaelhausenblas]

... I'll try to bring it forward

14:29:21 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben: Is it possible by end of week to have the status?

14:29:32 [michaelhausenblas]

Steven: Will put it on the HTML-WG agenda

14:29:59 [michaelhausenblas]

Ben: Good. Please keep us up-to-date

14:30:17 [michaelhausenblas]

Topic: 3. Test Cases Update (Michael)

14:30:27 [RalphS]

scribenick: ralphs

14:30:28 [michaelhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite

14:31:22 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0013.html [RDFa] Test Cases [Michael]

14:32:06 [RalphS]

Michael: I raise several questions:

14:32:15 [RalphS]

... + What is the host (HTML, XHTML, etc.) for RDFa?

14:32:15 [RalphS]

... + What parts of the spec do we test?

14:32:15 [RalphS]

... + How do we partition tests? cf. [1]

14:32:15 [RalphS]

... + Will we have a (semi-)automated test-environment?

14:32:15 [RalphS]

... + Technical issues (test result format: N3, NTriple, etc.)

14:32:16 [RalphS]

... + Legal issues (license)

14:32:37 [RalphS]

Steven: what we are testing is whether the page generates the triples we expect, right?

14:32:50 [RalphS]

Michael: yes, but we're testing the transformations

14:33:05 [RalphS]

... it makes sense to align with the RDF test cases

14:33:20 [RalphS]

Steven: W3C has two sorts of test suites;

14:33:32 [RalphS]

... the majority test the _specification, some test _implementations_

14:33:45 [RalphS]

... we should decide which of these we want to do before we decide how to go about it

14:34:10 [RalphS]

Michael: per the QA test development FAQ terminology, I think we're going for conformance testing

14:34:36 [RalphS]

Steven: one of the questions we will need to answer is whether the spec can exit CR

14:34:41 [michaelhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2005/01/test-faq#why

14:34:45 [RalphS]

... we need to show interoperability test results for that

14:35:25 [RalphS]

... to test the specification, for each part we would identify the assertions and produce a test showing whether an implementation really does this

14:35:36 [RalphS]

... what QA calls 'conformance testing'

14:37:03 [RalphS]

Michael: what about the host language?

14:37:11 [RalphS]

Ben: our task is RDF in XHTML

14:37:20 [RalphS]

... so I think our tests should be hosted in XHTML 1.1

14:37:35 [RalphS]

Steven: sounds good

14:37:41 [RalphS]

Mark: agree

14:37:44 [michaelhausenblas]

so it reads XHTML 1.1 + RDFa module

14:38:24 [RalphS]

Michael: are we chartered to produce a test suite?

14:38:52 [RalphS]

Ben: yes, SWD WG is chartered to produce an XHTML 1.1 module

14:39:19 [RalphS]

Ralph: test suites are a general expectation, there will not be any objection [based on charter] to us working on it

14:39:48 [RalphS]

Ben: add tests [from the RDF test suite] for those features we know we're going to support

14:40:01 [michaelhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite/TestTypes

14:40:03 [RalphS]

... later add others as we resolve open issues of which RDF features to include

14:40:23 [RalphS]

Michael: on partitioning of tests, I took the structure from the RDF Syntax document

14:40:47 [RalphS]

... or we could do some other partitioning

14:41:11 [RalphS]

Ben: [following Syntax document] looks like a good partitioning

14:41:28 [RalphS]

Steven: for CR testing, following the syntax doc works best

14:42:01 [RalphS]

... tests can be explicitly linked to the part of the spec you're trying to test

14:42:55 [RalphS]

Ben: it's harder to test my javascript library against conformance tests than it is to test Elias' library

14:43:19 [RalphS]

Michael: Elias' extractor should be tested against our test suite

14:43:41 [RalphS]

Ben: the difference is that Elias' extractor have a REST interface

14:44:04 [RalphS]

... other implementations, like my javascript implementation, don't have REST interfaces

14:44:25 [RalphS]

... we could propose automated testing for things that do have REST interfaces

14:44:35 [RalphS]

Mark: what about SPARQL-like tests?

14:44:49 [RalphS]

... "given this input, here's what you should return"

14:45:06 [RalphS]

... i.e. define our tests in terms of SPARQL

14:45:14 [RalphS]

Michael: is SPARQL close enough to REC?

14:45:17 [RalphS]

Ralph: yes :)

14:45:48 [RalphS]

Mark: don't require implementing all of SPARQL but could be a way to show that the outputs are the same even if they come from different environments

14:46:00 [RalphS]

Ben: I'm not sure this solves my problem; my implementation runs inside a browswer

14:46:17 [RalphS]

... I don't know how to drive a test in a way that would respect javascript cross-domain limitations

14:46:28 [RalphS]

Mark: I'm not suggesting that you retrieve data in the same manner as SPARQL

14:46:41 [RalphS]

... make a test file that contains lots of RDFa and a reference to your script library

14:47:12 [RalphS]

... the script runs and creates a bunch of RDF output, then we query that output and compare the query results against another implementation

14:47:24 [RalphS]

Ben: there's still some custom code I have to write for my implementation

14:48:21 [RalphS]

... it's more complicated for us to specify how to do this than for Elias' libraries

14:48:26 [RalphS]

... possible, just a lot more work

14:48:47 [RalphS]

Michael: propose that for the first phase we only do semi-automatic interface for REST implementations

14:49:08 [RalphS]

Mark: I mention SPARQL because it's not clear what REST has to do with our work

14:49:26 [RalphS]

... could say instead that if you run a query over the output of an RDFa tool you get these triples

14:49:32 [RalphS]

... has nothing to do with the transport

14:49:41 [RalphS]

Ben: the transport is just a test implementation method

14:50:01 [RalphS]

... the javascript RDFa implementation is meant as a personal [tool]

14:50:24 [RalphS]

Mark: understand that. If you think of this as a mathematical proof, how do we prove that the expected triples are generated?

14:50:46 [RalphS]

... it's a different thing to say that querying the result of RDFa extraction produces the following result

14:50:58 [RalphS]

... this allows a processor to produce additional triples that we might not know about

14:51:08 [RalphS]

... using SPARQL could hide a lot of implementation details

14:51:19 [RalphS]

Ben: sounds like a different question beyond automation

14:51:42 [RalphS]

... you're proposing that we use SPARQL to automate tests rather than REST

14:52:07 [RalphS]

Mark: yes. I'm thinking about this because I've been playing around with Ivan's examples for the XML literal issue

14:52:20 [michaelhausenblas]

q+ on test environment

14:52:21 [RalphS]

... it's easy to use SPARQL to decide if Ivan's examples conform

14:52:33 [RalphS]

Ben: have to explain to developers how to produce RDFa

14:52:39 [michaelhausenblas]

q+ to talk on test env

14:52:48 [RalphS]

... may be too much to have to tell them they need to buy-in to the whole RDF world

14:53:08 [RalphS]

... seems easy to say "it's just a big RDF triple store which you query" but that may be too much

14:53:33 [RalphS]

Steven: just say 'if you query it, you get this' doesn't leave much to test

14:53:39 [RalphS]

... like looking for P element

14:53:52 [RalphS]

Mark: would something fail if it produces 12 triples instead of 10?

14:54:12 [RalphS]

Steven: no, we could just say that the implementation has to produce _at least_ these triples

14:55:03 [RalphS]

Mark: the javascript bookmarklet could define the structure of json but that would be very implementation-specific

14:55:16 [RalphS]

Michael: I'd like to prepare a GUI sketch of an interface to a tester for next week

14:55:23 [RalphS]

... could then consider this in the light of SPARQL

14:55:40 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for 12-Feb meeting

14:55:59 [RalphS]

Ben: my main worry is making sure that RDFa is simple

14:56:08 [RalphS]

... simple enough for people to start adopting it

14:56:30 [RalphS]

... we don't want to force everyone to read every document published by the Semantic Web Working Groups

14:56:38 [RalphS]

Mark: there can't be half measures about test suites

14:57:16 [RalphS]

... on the other hand, Joe PublicAuthor only needs a nicely laid out [HTML] page that shows what to expect; he doesn't need to be involved with a test suite

14:57:31 [RalphS]

... microformats current lack a validator; there's no way to validate that you get what you expect

14:57:33 [michaelhausenblas]

http://xmlarmyknife.org/docs/rdf/rules/

14:57:42 [RalphS]

Michael: agree ...

14:58:02 [Zakim]

-Ralph

14:58:12 [benadida]

scribenick: benadida

14:58:20 [benadida]

Michael: NTriples might be easier to test

14:58:28 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

14:58:31 [benadida]

... legal issue, which license? Karl D. could help us there

14:59:01 [benadida]

Steven: W3C software license

14:59:47 [benadida]

Michael: we can postpone the legal discussion

14:59:58 [benadida]

... Wing and I will start working on the details of the test suite this week

15:00:19 [michaelhausenblas]

Scribe: Michael

15:00:22 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231

15:00:30 [michaelhausenblas]

Topic: 4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue

15:00:45 [michaelhausenblas]

Continues via mail

15:03:45 [michaelhausenblas]

Michael will look at SPARQL issues

15:04:56 [benadida]

Mark: issue with language

15:05:05 [benadida]

... for equivalences

15:06:48 [michaelhausenblas]

Topic: 5. overloading of @CLASS

15:06:59 [michaelhausenblas]

next telecon

15:07:05 [michaelhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:07:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html michaelhausenblas

15:07:28 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:07:29 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:07:31 [Zakim]

-Michael_Hausenblas

15:07:35 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:07:37 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

15:07:38 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_

15:07:47 [michaelhausenblas]

RRSAgent, make logs public

15:08:14 [Steven]

If you need help Michael, just ping me

15:09:22 [michaelhausenblas]

Thanks, Steven

15:09:33 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf

15:09:53 [michaelhausenblas]

I think I'm going to download th minutes and edit them, right?

15:10:21 [Steven]

Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)

15:10:29 [Steven]

oops

15:10:33 [Steven]

s/Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)//