IRC log of htmltf on 2007-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
13:48:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:48:52 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF in XHTML TF
13:49:48 [RalphS]
13:50:40 [RalphS]
Previous: 2007-01-29
13:57:15 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:57:23 [Zakim]
13:57:36 [Steven]
gosh, look at the time :-)
13:57:39 [Zakim]
13:59:06 [benadida]
benadida has joined #htmltf
13:59:21 [michaelhausenblas]
michaelhausenblas has joined #htmltf
13:59:52 [Zakim]
13:59:56 [RalphS]
zakim, nick michaelhausenblas is Michael
13:59:56 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS, I now associate michaelhausenblas with Michael_Hausenblas
14:00:02 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
14:00:41 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:00:41 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:00:43 [Zakim]
14:02:16 [MarkB_]
MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
14:03:30 [RalphS]
agenda+ Time of calls March 12-25
14:04:23 [michaelhausenblas]
ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:04:26 [Zakim]
14:04:33 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
14:04:33 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
14:04:35 [RalphS]
Scribe: Michael
14:04:46 [RalphS]
scribenick: michaelhausenblas
14:05:23 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: Spoke at W3C eGov meeting
14:05:37 [michaelhausenblas]
... policy oriented people
14:05:59 [michaelhausenblas]
... Ivan spoke about RDFa as well
14:06:07 [RalphS]
-> European W3C Symposium on eGovernment
14:06:46 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: In Sep 2006 we planned to submit to dev track
14:07:10 [michaelhausenblas]
... now a new deadline: XXXX
14:07:20 [benadida]
s/XXXX/Feb 12/
14:07:32 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: I'm planning to participate
14:07:55 [michaelhausenblas]
... in Banff/Canada
14:08:06 [Steven]
My talk:
14:08:19 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben: There are a lot of things to point out
14:09:10 [benadida]
14:09:10 [Steven]
Ivan's talk:
14:10:00 [RalphS]
-> Simile Exhibit
14:10:40 [michaelhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:10:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate michaelhausenblas
14:12:15 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Treck
14:12:26 [michaelhausenblas]
14:12:53 [benadida]
quick point: Exhibit is not my project, I take no credit for it :)
14:13:29 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: machine tags at flickr
14:13:57 [RalphS]
-> Machine Tags [Karl Dubost]
14:14:06 [michaelhausenblas]
... namespace are there but not yet URIs
14:15:30 [michaelhausenblas]
Welcome to the Semantic Web, flickr
14:15:54 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: now, a window of opportunity is open
14:16:41 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben: We should talk to the flickr guys and invite them to go for RDFa
14:17:22 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags
14:17:36 [michaelhausenblas]
Topic: 1. Action Item Review
14:17:44 [michaelhausenblas]
14:18:11 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case production [recorded in]
14:18:14 [michaelhausenblas]
-- done
14:18:26 [michaelhausenblas]
Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in]
14:18:31 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:18:37 [Steven]
Devtrack deadline is Feb 16th according to website
14:18:49 [michaelhausenblas]
Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in]
14:18:52 [michaelhausenblas]
-- drop
14:19:01 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in]
14:19:06 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:19:15 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in]
14:19:18 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:19:42 [Steven]
14:20:32 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded in]
14:20:44 [michaelhausenblas]
-- done
14:21:00 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in]
14:21:03 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:21:13 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload problem [recorded in]
14:21:17 [michaelhausenblas]
-- done
14:21:44 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in]
14:21:59 [RalphS]
-> new (tracker) issues list
14:22:11 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:22:15 [RalphS]
Ralph: I have a patch written by a summer student to get tracker to output RDF
14:22:20 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa [recorded in]
14:22:27 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:22:39 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in]
14:22:42 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:22:54 [michaelhausenblas]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in]
14:22:58 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:23:19 [michaelhausenblas]
Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in]
14:23:29 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:23:40 [michaelhausenblas]
Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in]
14:23:45 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:24:02 [michaelhausenblas]
Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded in]
14:24:09 [michaelhausenblas]
-- continues
14:24:25 [RalphS]
Michael: I wanted to transfer the closed issues
14:24:25 [michaelhausenblas]
Michael will make a single issue for all closed issues
14:24:39 [michaelhausenblas]
Topic: 2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark)
14:24:45 [RalphS]
Ralph: one closed issue pointing to the HTML page would suffice for me
14:25:22 [michaelhausenblas]
Mark: I have been in contact with Sean
14:26:33 [michaelhausenblas]
... will try to push work forward
14:27:11 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben: This is a cruicial part of the spec
14:27:24 [michaelhausenblas]
... approx schedule?
14:27:57 [michaelhausenblas]
Mark: Unfortunatly not - might help if Steven jumps in as well
14:28:25 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: Sean and I have some 5 drafts on the edge
14:28:45 [michaelhausenblas]
... I'll try to bring it forward
14:29:21 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben: Is it possible by end of week to have the status?
14:29:32 [michaelhausenblas]
Steven: Will put it on the HTML-WG agenda
14:29:59 [michaelhausenblas]
Ben: Good. Please keep us up-to-date
14:30:17 [michaelhausenblas]
Topic: 3. Test Cases Update (Michael)
14:30:27 [RalphS]
scribenick: ralphs
14:30:28 [michaelhausenblas]
14:31:22 [RalphS]
-> [RDFa] Test Cases [Michael]
14:32:06 [RalphS]
Michael: I raise several questions:
14:32:15 [RalphS]
... + What is the host (HTML, XHTML, etc.) for RDFa?
14:32:15 [RalphS]
... + What parts of the spec do we test?
14:32:15 [RalphS]
... + How do we partition tests? cf. [1]
14:32:15 [RalphS]
... + Will we have a (semi-)automated test-environment?
14:32:15 [RalphS]
... + Technical issues (test result format: N3, NTriple, etc.)
14:32:16 [RalphS]
... + Legal issues (license)
14:32:37 [RalphS]
Steven: what we are testing is whether the page generates the triples we expect, right?
14:32:50 [RalphS]
Michael: yes, but we're testing the transformations
14:33:05 [RalphS]
... it makes sense to align with the RDF test cases
14:33:20 [RalphS]
Steven: W3C has two sorts of test suites;
14:33:32 [RalphS]
... the majority test the _specification, some test _implementations_
14:33:45 [RalphS]
... we should decide which of these we want to do before we decide how to go about it
14:34:10 [RalphS]
Michael: per the QA test development FAQ terminology, I think we're going for conformance testing
14:34:36 [RalphS]
Steven: one of the questions we will need to answer is whether the spec can exit CR
14:34:41 [michaelhausenblas]
14:34:45 [RalphS]
... we need to show interoperability test results for that
14:35:25 [RalphS]
... to test the specification, for each part we would identify the assertions and produce a test showing whether an implementation really does this
14:35:36 [RalphS]
... what QA calls 'conformance testing'
14:37:03 [RalphS]
Michael: what about the host language?
14:37:11 [RalphS]
Ben: our task is RDF in XHTML
14:37:20 [RalphS]
... so I think our tests should be hosted in XHTML 1.1
14:37:35 [RalphS]
Steven: sounds good
14:37:41 [RalphS]
Mark: agree
14:37:44 [michaelhausenblas]
so it reads XHTML 1.1 + RDFa module
14:38:24 [RalphS]
Michael: are we chartered to produce a test suite?
14:38:52 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, SWD WG is chartered to produce an XHTML 1.1 module
14:39:19 [RalphS]
Ralph: test suites are a general expectation, there will not be any objection [based on charter] to us working on it
14:39:48 [RalphS]
Ben: add tests [from the RDF test suite] for those features we know we're going to support
14:40:01 [michaelhausenblas]
14:40:03 [RalphS]
... later add others as we resolve open issues of which RDF features to include
14:40:23 [RalphS]
Michael: on partitioning of tests, I took the structure from the RDF Syntax document
14:40:47 [RalphS]
... or we could do some other partitioning
14:41:11 [RalphS]
Ben: [following Syntax document] looks like a good partitioning
14:41:28 [RalphS]
Steven: for CR testing, following the syntax doc works best
14:42:01 [RalphS]
... tests can be explicitly linked to the part of the spec you're trying to test
14:42:55 [RalphS]
Ben: it's harder to test my javascript library against conformance tests than it is to test Elias' library
14:43:19 [RalphS]
Michael: Elias' extractor should be tested against our test suite
14:43:41 [RalphS]
Ben: the difference is that Elias' extractor have a REST interface
14:44:04 [RalphS]
... other implementations, like my javascript implementation, don't have REST interfaces
14:44:25 [RalphS]
... we could propose automated testing for things that do have REST interfaces
14:44:35 [RalphS]
Mark: what about SPARQL-like tests?
14:44:49 [RalphS]
... "given this input, here's what you should return"
14:45:06 [RalphS]
... i.e. define our tests in terms of SPARQL
14:45:14 [RalphS]
Michael: is SPARQL close enough to REC?
14:45:17 [RalphS]
Ralph: yes :)
14:45:48 [RalphS]
Mark: don't require implementing all of SPARQL but could be a way to show that the outputs are the same even if they come from different environments
14:46:00 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm not sure this solves my problem; my implementation runs inside a browswer
14:46:17 [RalphS]
... I don't know how to drive a test in a way that would respect javascript cross-domain limitations
14:46:28 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm not suggesting that you retrieve data in the same manner as SPARQL
14:46:41 [RalphS]
... make a test file that contains lots of RDFa and a reference to your script library
14:47:12 [RalphS]
... the script runs and creates a bunch of RDF output, then we query that output and compare the query results against another implementation
14:47:24 [RalphS]
Ben: there's still some custom code I have to write for my implementation
14:48:21 [RalphS]
... it's more complicated for us to specify how to do this than for Elias' libraries
14:48:26 [RalphS]
... possible, just a lot more work
14:48:47 [RalphS]
Michael: propose that for the first phase we only do semi-automatic interface for REST implementations
14:49:08 [RalphS]
Mark: I mention SPARQL because it's not clear what REST has to do with our work
14:49:26 [RalphS]
... could say instead that if you run a query over the output of an RDFa tool you get these triples
14:49:32 [RalphS]
... has nothing to do with the transport
14:49:41 [RalphS]
Ben: the transport is just a test implementation method
14:50:01 [RalphS]
... the javascript RDFa implementation is meant as a personal [tool]
14:50:24 [RalphS]
Mark: understand that. If you think of this as a mathematical proof, how do we prove that the expected triples are generated?
14:50:46 [RalphS]
... it's a different thing to say that querying the result of RDFa extraction produces the following result
14:50:58 [RalphS]
... this allows a processor to produce additional triples that we might not know about
14:51:08 [RalphS]
... using SPARQL could hide a lot of implementation details
14:51:19 [RalphS]
Ben: sounds like a different question beyond automation
14:51:42 [RalphS]
... you're proposing that we use SPARQL to automate tests rather than REST
14:52:07 [RalphS]
Mark: yes. I'm thinking about this because I've been playing around with Ivan's examples for the XML literal issue
14:52:20 [michaelhausenblas]
q+ on test environment
14:52:21 [RalphS]
... it's easy to use SPARQL to decide if Ivan's examples conform
14:52:33 [RalphS]
Ben: have to explain to developers how to produce RDFa
14:52:39 [michaelhausenblas]
q+ to talk on test env
14:52:48 [RalphS]
... may be too much to have to tell them they need to buy-in to the whole RDF world
14:53:08 [RalphS]
... seems easy to say "it's just a big RDF triple store which you query" but that may be too much
14:53:33 [RalphS]
Steven: just say 'if you query it, you get this' doesn't leave much to test
14:53:39 [RalphS]
... like looking for P element
14:53:52 [RalphS]
Mark: would something fail if it produces 12 triples instead of 10?
14:54:12 [RalphS]
Steven: no, we could just say that the implementation has to produce _at least_ these triples
14:55:03 [RalphS]
Mark: the javascript bookmarklet could define the structure of json but that would be very implementation-specific
14:55:16 [RalphS]
Michael: I'd like to prepare a GUI sketch of an interface to a tester for next week
14:55:23 [RalphS]
... could then consider this in the light of SPARQL
14:55:40 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for 12-Feb meeting
14:55:59 [RalphS]
Ben: my main worry is making sure that RDFa is simple
14:56:08 [RalphS]
... simple enough for people to start adopting it
14:56:30 [RalphS]
... we don't want to force everyone to read every document published by the Semantic Web Working Groups
14:56:38 [RalphS]
Mark: there can't be half measures about test suites
14:57:16 [RalphS]
... on the other hand, Joe PublicAuthor only needs a nicely laid out [HTML] page that shows what to expect; he doesn't need to be involved with a test suite
14:57:31 [RalphS]
... microformats current lack a validator; there's no way to validate that you get what you expect
14:57:33 [michaelhausenblas]
14:57:42 [RalphS]
Michael: agree ...
14:58:02 [Zakim]
14:58:12 [benadida]
scribenick: benadida
14:58:20 [benadida]
Michael: NTriples might be easier to test
14:58:28 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:58:31 [benadida]
... legal issue, which license? Karl D. could help us there
14:59:01 [benadida]
Steven: W3C software license
14:59:47 [benadida]
Michael: we can postpone the legal discussion
14:59:58 [benadida]
... Wing and I will start working on the details of the test suite this week
15:00:19 [michaelhausenblas]
Scribe: Michael
15:00:22 [Steven]
15:00:30 [michaelhausenblas]
Topic: 4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue
15:00:45 [michaelhausenblas]
Continues via mail
15:03:45 [michaelhausenblas]
Michael will look at SPARQL issues
15:04:56 [benadida]
Mark: issue with language
15:05:05 [benadida]
... for equivalences
15:06:48 [michaelhausenblas]
Topic: 5. overloading of @CLASS
15:06:59 [michaelhausenblas]
next telecon
15:07:05 [michaelhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:07:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate michaelhausenblas
15:07:28 [Zakim]
15:07:29 [Zakim]
15:07:31 [Zakim]
15:07:35 [Zakim]
15:07:37 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:07:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_
15:07:47 [michaelhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:08:14 [Steven]
If you need help Michael, just ping me
15:09:22 [michaelhausenblas]
Thanks, Steven
15:09:33 [benadida]
benadida has left #htmltf
15:09:53 [michaelhausenblas]
I think I'm going to download th minutes and edit them, right?
15:10:21 [Steven]
Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)
15:10:29 [Steven]
15:10:33 [Steven]
s/Yes, they'll be out this afternoon or tomorrow morning (just back from Spain)//