15:26:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-desc
15:26:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-irc
15:47:51 <Jonathan> Meeting: WS Description WG telcon
15:47:56 <Jonathan> Chair: Jonathan
15:52:14 <Marsh> Marsh has joined #ws-desc
15:52:26 <Marsh> Zakim, this will be WS_Desc
15:52:26 <Zakim> "WS_Desc" matches WS_DescWG()11:00AM, and WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM, Marsh
15:52:34 <Marsh> Zakim, this will be WS_DescWG()
15:52:34 <Zakim> ok, Marsh; I see WS_DescWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:54:55 <Marsh> Tony, you there?
15:57:37 <Marsh> RRSAgent, set log world
15:58:29 <Allen1> Allen1 has joined #ws-desc
15:59:08 <Zakim> WS_DescWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:10 <Zakim> +alewis
15:59:15 <Marsh> I'm worried about the reliability of my internet, and skype connection.
15:59:30 <Marsh> If I disappear abruptly, please keep things swimming along !
15:59:46 <Zakim> +??P16
15:59:47 <Zakim> -??P16
15:59:47 <Zakim> +??P16
15:59:57 <TonyR>  zakim, ??p16 is me
15:59:57 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
16:00:01 <Zakim> +??P22
16:00:06 <alewis> alewis has joined #ws-desc
16:00:19 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick
16:00:51 <Marsh> zakim, code?
16:00:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 97394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Marsh
16:01:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:25 <jkaputin> Roland Merrick is actually John Kaputin (Apache Woden/IBM) standing in for Arthur Ryman
16:01:27 <Marsh> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:01:27 <Zakim> +Marsh; got it
16:01:49 <alewis> heh.  i thought roland was slumming.  :-)
16:02:13 <Zakim> +Allen_Brookes
16:02:46 <Marsh> Zakim, ?P22 is charlton
16:02:46 <Zakim> sorry, Marsh, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
16:02:50 <Marsh> Zakim, ??P22 is charlton
16:02:50 <Zakim> +charlton; got it
16:03:06 <Zakim> +m2
16:03:11 <Roberto> Roberto has joined #ws-desc
16:03:12 <Zakim> +Gilbert_Pilz
16:03:52 <Zakim> +Roberto_Chinnici
16:04:05 <Roberto> c
16:04:31 <Marsh> zakim, who's making noise?
16:04:44 <Zakim> Marsh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marsh (67%), alewis (75%), TonyR (32%)
16:04:44 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-desc
16:04:56 <Marsh> zakim, mute alewis
16:04:57 <Zakim> alewis should now be muted
16:05:19 <Marsh> zakim, unmute alewis
16:05:20 <charlton> charlton has joined #ws-desc
16:05:22 <Zakim> alewis should no longer be muted
16:05:33 <charlton> zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see alewis, TonyR, charlton, Roland_Merrick, Marsh, Allen_Brookes, m2, Gilbert_Pilz, Roberto
16:05:47 <Marsh> zakim, mute alewis
16:05:49 <Zakim> alewis should now be muted
16:05:58 <monica> monica has joined #ws-desc
16:06:50 <TonyR> scribe: tonyr
16:07:18 <TonyR> topic: minutes approval
16:07:38 <TonyR> minutes approved without dissent
16:07:55 <TonyR> topic: administrivia
16:08:21 <Zakim> +[Canon]
16:09:38 <TonyR> WS-Policy responses have been accepted and applied to their spec; Charlton tracking
16:09:41 <Zakim> +??P19
16:09:45 <jjm> jjm has joined #ws-desc
16:10:05 <asir> asir has joined #ws-desc
16:10:33 <Marsh> Zakim, ??P19 is Asir?
16:10:33 <Zakim> +Asir?; got it
16:10:57 <alewis> i haven't seen anything, as i recall.
16:11:36 <asir> q+ to ask a question?
16:11:43 <Zakim> +??P20
16:11:52 <Marsh> ack asir
16:11:52 <Zakim> asir, you wanted to ask a question?
16:12:01 <Zakim> -alewis
16:12:11 <Zakim> -Allen_Brookes
16:12:17 <alewis> grr.  what happened?
16:12:38 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-desc
16:12:57 <pauld> zakim, ??P20 is probably me
16:12:57 <Zakim> +pauld?; got it
16:13:51 <TonyR> topic: MTOM description
16:13:57 <Zakim> +alewis
16:14:09 <TonyR> draft of charter for the XML-P group, including MTOM
16:15:02 <TonyR> Jonathan: suggest we forward Jean-Jacques' comments on the XML-P charter to the CG and the authors of the charter
16:15:11 <JacekK> JacekK has joined #ws-desc
16:15:48 <TonyR> JJM: pleased that the charter is happening, but would be happier if it were more detailed
16:16:02 <Zakim> +JacekK
16:16:50 <TonyR> Jonathan: any specifics?
16:18:47 <TonyR> Jonathan: will forward JJM's comments, but want to know if the WG has any other specific recommendations to the authors
16:19:05 <asir> Here is the link http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-MTOMPolicy-20061101/
16:19:09 <pauld> also had a challenge when looking at the charter
16:19:27 <charlton> thanks asir
16:19:43 <pauld> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/XML-Protocol-Charter.html
16:19:44 <TonyR> jjm: could not reach the submission by clicking on the link in the charter - permissions issue
16:20:06 <asir> am wondering why such specific comments cannot be handled through Canon AC representative
16:20:07 <TonyR> ACTION: Jonathan to forward comments to the author of the MTOM charter
16:20:49 <TonyR> ACTION: Jean-Jacques to develop more concrete suggestions for expansion of the charter for the XML-P group
16:22:35 <asir> thank you for the clarification
16:22:35 <TonyR> topic: CR112
16:22:48 <TonyR> waiting on input from Philippe - skipping
16:22:53 <TonyR> topic: CR145
16:23:17 <TonyR> Jonathan: we agreed that the status quo is clear
16:24:10 <TonyR> Jonathan: perhaps current model is unclear, and we could remove those items that are not referred to by any WSDL component
16:24:36 <TonyR> Roberto: not sure that the status quo says what you said it does
16:25:11 <TonyR> JohnK: I agree - not certain that the spec says clearly what is included
16:25:33 <Marsh> zakim, who's making noise?
16:25:44 <Zakim> Marsh, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:25:44 <TonyR> Roberto: argument detailed in e-mail is that we should only include in the component model those items which are referenceable
16:26:28 <Marsh> zakim, who's making noise?
16:26:39 <Zakim> Marsh, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:27:15 <TonyR> Roberto: those elements which are inported by things which are imported cannot be referenced unless also directly imported; only those items which are directly imported should be included
16:28:08 <TonyR> JohnK: agreed - only those items which can be referenced should be included in the component model
16:28:56 <Zakim> +??P25
16:29:17 <Allen1> zakim, ??P25 is Allen
16:29:17 <Zakim> +Allen; got it
16:30:06 <TonyR> JohnK: Arthur had some concerns about referencability. Once we reach the component model we lose the understanding of which elements are referenceable because referenceability is a property of the document
16:31:03 <TonyR> Roberto: not sure that I agree. Yes, referenceability is a feature of the document, but if we follow the procedure I outline we will get a suitable set of components
16:31:51 <TonyR> JohnK: inclined to agree. Including everything clutters the component model with components which are not used because they were not able to be referenced
16:32:17 <TonyR> JohnK: prefer Roberto's proposal
16:33:00 <TonyR> Jonathan: like Roberto's proposal, too - it reinforces the idea of import; produces a nicer "mental model"
16:33:27 <TonyR> JohnK: we haven't covered the likely use cases - Arthur could address that if he were here
16:34:06 <TonyR> ... we may need to revisit this if Arthur has additional use cases
16:34:20 <TonyR> Jonathan: are we clear on the wording we require in the spec?
16:35:10 <TonyR> ACTION: Roberto to suggest more concrete wording for the spec for CR145
16:35:40 <Marsh> Look at sections 3.1.3 and the Desc Comp section 2.1.1
16:35:42 <TonyR> JohnK: section 3.1.3 and Description Component section in Part 1
16:36:03 <TonyR> topic: CR117
16:36:32 <TonyR> Jonathan
16:37:29 <TonyR> Jonathan: this is about encoding the data included in a URI - what rules we should follow in determining which parts of the data are URL-encoded?
16:37:29 <youenn_> youenn_ has joined #ws-desc
16:37:48 <TonyR> Jonathan: we had two proposals: 
16:38:19 <TonyR> ... 1. augment the template syntax to indicate which parameters should be / should not be encoded
16:40:10 <TonyR> ... 2. always encode all parameters, ensuring everything is always reversible
16:40:37 <JacekK> q+
16:40:59 <TonyR> ... in this case we'd ensure that all parameters must be separated by an unescaped character not in the set of unescaped characters
16:41:05 <Marsh> ack jacek
16:41:09 <Roberto> q+
16:41:42 <TonyR> Jacek: you are talking about reconstructing the query from the URL - has this ever been an objective of the spec?
16:42:03 <TonyR> Jonathan: no, but our implementations have been requiring this ability
16:42:34 <Marsh> ack roberto
16:42:42 <TonyR> Youenn: yes, it makes sense to be able to reconstruct
16:43:35 <TonyR> Roberto: I like the idea of the different templating syntax. That would be a good solution, using two different serialisation "modes"
16:44:09 <TonyR> ... on the other hand, I don't like the other proposal - to insist on unique deserialisation
16:44:23 <JacekK> q+
16:44:26 <TonyR> Youenn: I think it's just a warning, not an error
16:45:20 <TonyR> Jonathan: the raw vs encoded proposal doesn't solve the real problem, which is the unique deserialisation
16:45:22 <Marsh> ack jacek
16:45:52 <TonyR> Jacek: I don't like the idea of adding a new feature at this time, which would require returning to LC again.
16:46:37 <TonyR> ... perhaps we should add an XML simple type which disallows the set of characters which cause problems
16:47:10 <TonyR> Jonathan: can we create a simple type to do this? Right now we'd need a BNF
16:47:54 <TonyR> Youenn: the writer of the binding may not be the writer of the interface
16:48:04 <TonyR> Jacek: don't we already have this problem?
16:48:24 <TonyR> ... wouldn't mind that all that much - already constrained
16:50:20 <TonyR> Jonathan: Jacek's proposal is that we add descriptive text about problems in some operations due to ambiguity from including certain characters in parameters, and provide a simple type to avoid these ambiguities
16:51:07 <TonyR> ... This would not avoid the problem of reversability - will not be able to reconstruct the original query
16:51:23 <TonyR> Youenn: the server may not be able to understand the message
16:51:41 <TonyR> Jacek: The server will break? I can't see the problem here
16:52:39 <TonyR> Jonathan: unless you constrain the data in the URL, the server may be "confused"
16:53:26 <TonyR> Jacek: we have the problem already in other places - a "first name" field that could be "any string" could be sent a 5Mb string, which could cause problems with most servers
16:54:14 <TonyR> Youenn: perhaps we could insist that uncited parameters which go into the query string be encoded; cited parameters would not be encoded
16:54:25 <TonyR> Jonathan: how does that solve the problem?
16:54:56 <TonyR> Jacek: the uncited parameters would not be able to mess up the cited parameters
16:55:30 <pauld> zakim, who is making noise?
16:55:41 <Zakim> pauld, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marsh (70%), TonyR (19%)
16:56:40 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-desc
16:56:46 <TonyR> Jonathan: sounds like my second proposal is DOA (mandatory encoding + ban ambiguity)
16:57:42 <Zakim> -Marsh
16:57:59 <TonyR> Jonathan: could adopt my first proposal, or Youenn's proposal
16:58:43 <chad> chad has joined #ws-desc
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16:59:39 <JacekK> chad, question: CR117
17:01:31 <Zakim> +??P0
17:01:48 <Zakim> -Roland_Merrick
17:02:00 <Zakim> -??P0
17:02:09 <Zakim> -pauld?
17:02:54 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-desc
17:03:20 <JacekK> chad, question?
17:03:26 <JacekK> chad, options?
17:03:51 <alewis> vote: 4, 3, 5, 2
17:03:55 <JacekK> vote: 4, 2, 0
17:04:21 <TonyR> vote: 4, 0, 5, 2, 3
17:04:33 <charlton> vote: 4, 5, 2, 3
17:04:34 <youenn> vote: 5, 1, 2, 3, 4
17:04:38 <Allen1> vote: 4, 0
17:04:40 <Roberto> vote: 1, 4, 0, 5, 3, 2
17:04:41 <gpilz> vote: 4, 5, 3, 2
17:04:59 <monica> 1,4,no others
17:05:11 <Jonathan> vote: 3, 5, 2
17:05:14 <JacekK> vote: monica: 1, 4
17:05:15 <jjm> vote: 5, 1, 2, 3, 4
17:05:37 <JacekK> chad, count
17:05:37 <chad> Question: CR117
17:05:37 <chad>     Option 0: status quo (0)
17:05:37 <chad>     Option 1: jonathat's 1st - new syntax for controlling whether or not to encode (2)
17:05:37 <chad>     Option 2: youenn - cited parameters raw, uncited encoded (0)
17:05:37 <chad>     Option 3: jonathat's 2nd - everything encoded, ambiguity forbidden (1)
17:05:38 <chad>     Option 4: jacek's - all is raw, we warn people, give them guidance and maybe a restrictive simple type (6)
17:05:41 <chad>     Option 5: everything encoded (2)
17:05:43 <chad> 11 voters: alewis (4,3,5,2),Allen1 (4,0),charlton (4,5,2,3),gpilz (4,5,3,2),JacekK (4,2,0),jjm (5,1,2,3,4),Jonathan (3,5,2),monica (1,4),Roberto (1,4,0,5,3,2),TonyR (4,0,5,2,3),youenn (5,1,2,3,4)
17:05:46 <chad> Round  1: Count of first place rankings.
17:05:48 <chad>           Candidate 4 is elected.
17:05:50 <chad> Winner is option 4 - jacek's - all is raw, we warn people, give them guidance and maybe a restrictive simple type
17:06:45 <TonyR> Straw poll indicates a strong preference for Jacek's proposal
17:06:49 <monica> need to play lotto
17:07:06 <monica> $240 millon in oregon
17:09:17 <TonyR> youenn: dislike this proposal. Might be better to support the use cases we know; don't want to block future use cases
17:09:46 <TonyR> Jacek: can the use cases that this proposal blocks be addressed in the application? 
17:10:06 <TonyR> ... application can be built to use encoding where needed
17:11:09 <TonyR> Jacek: adding path segments is a use case which would be blocked by encoding everything
17:11:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:11:44 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:12:05 <charlton> zakim, who is making noise?
17:12:17 <Zakim> charlton, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: TonyR (26%), [Canon] (21%)
17:12:22 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, where am I?
17:12:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-irc#T17-12-22
17:12:50 <JacekK> chad, clean
17:12:55 <TonyR> Jacek: using Youenn's proposal would still allow us to warn people of the consequences
17:12:59 <JacekK> chad, reset
17:12:59 <chad> new poll
17:13:06 <JacekK> chad, question: CR117
17:15:10 <Jonathan> Jonathan has left #ws-desc
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17:18:27 <Roberto> I prefer option 1, having authors explicitly choose between raw and encoded, over option 2
17:20:00 <asir> Are there any concrete proposals written down for any of these options?
17:20:03 <TonyR> Tony: concerned about security issues with RAW parameters
17:20:54 <TonyR> Jacek: have the same issues without WSDL - a user can enter a URL without using the WSDL, so there's no security hole (that wasn't already present)
17:21:19 <TonyR> ... might avoid bugs / undocumented features by encoding, but nothing more
17:22:23 <TonyR> Youenn: would prefer to offer a choice of RAW/encoded
17:22:52 <TonyR> Jacek: we have a default - the status quo is that we leave everything RAW
17:23:09 <TonyR> Youenn: not sure that the default was thought through
17:23:31 <TonyR> Jacek: we are in CR - reluctant to change things at this point
17:24:06 <TonyR> ... we can provide advice, and offer a simple type to avoid issues
17:24:46 <TonyR> Youenn: but there are values which won't be valid according to the simple type - some book titles won't be accepted
17:24:47 <Jonathan> Jonathan has joined #ws-desc
17:25:07 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, where am I?
17:25:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-irc#T17-25-07
17:25:16 <TonyR> Jacek: if we want to put things into a URI, you have to encode them
17:26:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:29:54 <TonyR> Youenn: cannot automate the reconstruction of the query from the URL
17:31:31 <TonyR> Jacek: wonder what the web people would say about this - if we are constructing a URI, we are addressing a resource, and the resource should "know what to do"
17:32:56 <TonyR> Jonathan: there are fiddly bits in the HTTP binding. if we don't do any encoding, then there are more restrictions on the data we can use
17:33:22 <Roberto> if there are two classes of users with two different use cases, it makes sense to have two template syntaxes, i.e. option 1
17:34:07 <TonyR> Jonathan: guess we'll have to return this one to the mailing list. Please describe the positions clearly
17:34:12 <Zakim> -Allen
17:34:13 <Zakim> -alewis
17:34:17 <Zakim> -JacekK
17:34:24 <Jonathan> Thanks Tony!
17:34:24 <Zakim> -Roberto
17:34:30 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:34:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:34:31 <Zakim> -Gilbert_Pilz
17:34:33 <Zakim> -TonyR
17:34:33 <Zakim> -m2
17:34:36 <Zakim> -charlton
17:34:37 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:34:38 <TonyR> TonyR has left #ws-desc
17:34:45 <Zakim> -[Canon]
17:37:05 <JacekK> chad, bye
17:37:05 <chad> chad has left #ws-desc
17:39:45 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Asir?, in WS_DescWG()11:00AM
17:39:48 <Zakim> WS_DescWG()11:00AM has ended
17:39:49 <Zakim> Attendees were alewis, TonyR, Roland_Merrick, Marsh, Allen_Brookes, charlton, m2, Gilbert_Pilz, Roberto, [Canon], Asir?, pauld?, JacekK, Allen, [IPcaller]
17:40:01 <alewis> alewis has left #ws-desc
19:34:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ws-desc