14:16:36 RRSAgent has joined #ua 14:16:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc 14:16:54 Meeting: WAI UA 14:17:20 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0009.html 14:17:37 Scribe: JR 14:17:58 Chair: Jim Allan 14:20:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2-req/ 14:24:43 This document provides guidelines for designing user agents that lower barriers to Web accessibility for people with disabilities (visual, hearing, physical, cognitive, and neurological). 14:24:52 All: Editing Requirements Intro - using WCAG 2.0 Req document as a model 14:33:58 judy has joined #ua 14:34:59 http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/wai-eval/index.php?option=Test%20Suites 14:36:21 KFord has joined #ua 14:36:41 All: Introduction edits: hilighting info from test suites. 14:37:46 Yes, I do have Skype. 14:40:52 Yes, trying to add as a contact now. 14:41:50 I'm told this contact isn't found, can you phone kellford1967 on skype? 14:47:18 Introduction 14:47:18 User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (UAAG 1.0) provides guidelines for designing user agents that lower barriers to Web accessibility for people with disabilities (visual, hearing, physical, cognitive, and neurological). 14:47:33 Since the release of UAAG 1.0 as a W3C Recommendation in December 2002, the UA WG has received feedback about the usability, understandability, and applicability of the suite of documents.[changes in the techniques used in web pages (extensive scripting, changes in the use of technology used for the web, udates in the functionality of assistive technology, changes in accessibilty APIs, changes in platforms (pervasive, mobile devices, etc.) These changes in additio 14:48:29 The primary goal of UAAG 2.0 is the same as 1.0: to lower barriers to accessibility of user agents. Additional goals discussed in this document are: 14:48:29 Ensure that requirements may be applied across technologies 14:48:29 Ensure that the conformance requirements are clear 14:48:29 Design deliverables with ease of use in mind 14:48:29 shift focus back to base browser (make user agent base provide the accessibility model ) 14:48:31 explain how to demonstrate compliance through an accessible view using the appropriate UIs (browsesr and extenstions, assistive technology 14:48:34 Clearly identify who benefits from accessible user agents 14:48:36 Ensure that the revision is "backwards and forward compatible" 14:52:44 CL: CL's ideas for the requirements doc: 14:53:32 CL: 1. Encourage adoption of ARIA techniques by all UA's 14:54:12 judy has left #ua 14:55:48 CL: 2. More clearly define UAs as browsers but distinguish testing of compliance to distinguish plugins and ATs 14:56:16 CL: 3. Restructure to align more closely with TAG and WCAG 14:57:44 CL: 4. Audience - must attract all browser developers to participate as well as accessibility architects for APIs and accessibility markup architects 14:59:00 CL: As well as consumers of accessibility APIs (AT developers) and end-users of user agents. 14:59:11 KF: Plus Plugin developers 14:59:33 UA: Wants to remove "plugin" and use "embedded UA" 14:59:53 PP: Plugin to VIW - plugin to chrome 14:59:59 VIW=VIEW 15:00:42 PP: Use Case: FLASH in a doc has own model and view 15:01:15 PP: FLASH implements accessibility API 15:02:57 plug-in vs extension vs model 15:02:57 flash - own ui, implements accessibilty api (part of infrastructure), provides content 15:04:13 MODEL: Programmatic access 15:04:48 VIEW: Is the UI (the chrome, AT, etc.) 15:06:35 model is the base that everything is built from or overlayed upon 15:07:18 view is the gui (chrome, AT, content view, etc.) 15:08:57 jr: might also split the view into chrome (UI) and content 15:10:24 CL: Other views: Firevox, UIUC accessibility extension 15:11:05 use case: UIUC accessibility extension - extension to view (using api to get information), consumer of existing model, extents the browser ui to provide information to end user. 15:13:22 JA: Brings up compound docs - where navigation and other things are made more uniform 15:19:05 All: Discussion of model-view controller split as related to multimedia 15:21:35 flash/media-player/PDF - own ui, implements accessibilty api (part of infrastructure), provides content , both a model and the view, not part of the HTML DOM , embedded object (in HTML), may have own DOM/API, may expose public API so others can get at the information 15:21:53 KF: Good use case - what would plugin developer do - ie Quicktime doesn't expose 15:22:20 CL: Other use case - Web applications 15:24:13 KF: Ex. tree view controls 15:27:48 CL: ARIA doesn't handle keyboard nav at the moment. 15:28:18 CL: Becky etc. writes style guides for widget sets specifying how to do keyboard nav 15:29:17 web application - own ui (provided by the author, not the model), repurposes functioning of standard controls and creates custom controls [author must use WEB-ARIA to be accessible], doesn't implement native/platform API. 15:30:46 jr: can have a web application that is an editor 15:31:24 cl: try to get the browser to understand what is going on and provide the information to the APIs 15:31:41 JR: Can have web content that is a user agent 15:32:07 cl: may be trouble with ARIA because of implementing its own keyboard navigation 15:32:57 CL: It's a SMOP=Simple Matter of Programming 15:35:02 ...not part of chrome, the browser can not interact and allow the user to modify the web-application's key bindings 15:36:12 cl: want to avoid off screen models, heuristics, 15:36:46 All: Don't want things to be done site by site 15:38:21 all: problems with javascript, outside of the model, doesn't provide a model of what its doing, not part of the dom 15:38:44 ..can assign keybindings, 15:39:38 CL: Not people in accessibility creating this technology - access is reacting. 15:40:19 UAAG is trying to provide direction for developers to make access easier 15:42:58 CL: AT is not a model (may have its own model), it provides a view - consumes the controller model and provides output 15:57:48 Ensure that requirements may be applied across and interoperable with technologies (compound documents, scripting languages, operating systems, platforms (mobile, etc.), APIs, accessibilty architectures 15:57:48 Ensure that the conformance requirements are clear 15:57:48 Design deliverables with ease of use in mind 15:57:48 shift focus back to base browser (make user agent base provide the accessibility model) 15:57:48 explain how to demonstrate compliance through an accessible view using the appropriate UIs (browsesr and extenstions, assistive technology 15:57:51 Clearly identify who benefits from accessible user agents 15:57:53 Ensure that the revision is "backwards and forward compatible" 15:57:55 restructure to more closely align with ATAG and WCAG 16:00:49 http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/issues-jan11.htm 16:02:10 CL: Also should add note on "reducing redundancy" 16:05:04 JR,PP: Should keep stop bliking etc. for known things - "AL's 80-20 rule" 16:06:52 JA,CL: Discuss customization - customization can be overload 16:07:02 KF: Depends on implementation 16:07:24 KF: One button - may do multiple things - plus profiles help 16:07:42 JA: Yeah but may still be daunting 16:08:08 CL: How do you make customization easier 16:08:51 JA: ScrReader have many modes 16:09:23 JA: Form in table runs into Form mode/Table mode interaction problems 16:10:48 JA: Gives example of checkbox in form cell 16:10:59 CL: Yeah but where do you want info pulled from?' 16:11:17 JA: Other example - Form with prompts 16:11:39 JA: Forms mode make instructions difficult 16:12:10 JA: Finds himself on a "bunny trail". 16:14:43 CL: what about flashing things. what is the issue 16:14:51 jr: photo sensitive 16:15:14 JA: there are things that UA doesn't know about, 16:15:56 KF: push back to content develpers to create things that the UA can determine and make accessible control 16:16:13 JR: WCAG role for content developers 16:24:51 CL: UA need to address non-W3 technologies 16:30:07 CL: Idea for MathML person - Neal Soiffer - Design Science 16:37:16 KF: Let's move on 16:40:19 JA: Going through issues doc... 16:42:33 goal 7 restructure to more closely align with ATAG and WCAG simplify but combining similar checkpoints, reducing redundancy 16:42:33 balance roles Author content and UA functionality (repair and control functions) 16:44:12 JR: Once again we should be less absolute about compensating for author actions - since these can't always be predicted 16:44:58 CL: CSS is a nother thing that author may use in ways that need to be fixed 16:47:04 KF: Hard to do - UA has to look in CSS directly and use heuristics 16:47:28 PP: In Linux it's easier because this info goes into the Linux access API 16:48:23 PP, CL: Discuss bullets - are they content? In FF they are handled as content. 16:50:14 JA: Skins... 16:50:36 PP: FF uses CSS for XUL. 16:50:48 KF: IE does not do this 16:51:57 CL: Also access-aiding CSS like magnication style, high contrast style 16:52:49 CL: Can cause prob - ex. author says "no scrollbars" but user stylesheet makes content too big too fit 16:56:56 JA: Brings up voice settings 16:57:19 JR, KF: This should be modular, applying to voice browsers but not to all UAs 16:59:38 All: Discuss where to put chrome in the reqs 16:59:59 JA: IE does extensions? 17:00:14 KF: IE has had extensions for a long time 17:02:15 KF: What burden on underlying technology to make extension experience accesible? 17:02:44 PP: Right what to do in model... 17:03:17 JA: Right - seen extensions in menu bars, other just change functionality, or something in status bar. 17:04:05 JR: How much customization do extensions allow? 17:04:25 KF: Suppose allow things to be added to areas that are not keyboard accessible. 17:04:45 pp: bad browser 17:04:55 JA: bad developer 17:05:22 KF: ex. Toolbars hard to make keyboard accessibler 17:05:30 JA: Same way in FF 17:06:28 CL: Browser should enable the extension of the environment to be accessible 17:06:43 PP: Right - mixed responsibility 17:07:11 mixed=shared 17:08:48 JA: 4.4... 17:11:58 JA: 4.14... 17:12:19 PP: User Javascript 17:12:27 KF: Customizing the content view 17:12:37 CL: Similar to Web Applications 17:14:07 JR: Right but should it be a requirement? 17:15:07 KF: So does user have to be able to change content? 17:18:12 KF: If you enable someone to say linearize a table does this have to be accesible? 17:18:16 JA: Yes 17:18:31 CL: Right we're trying to figure out the divisions 17:18:50 KF: THis goes into good ideas for more accessible views 17:19:13 JA: Guideline 6... 17:20:24 CL: We want to promote engineered APIs - "usa AN accessibility API" 17:20:58 CL: DOM is incomplete - no javascript, no CSS< etc 17:21:11 CL: That's why platform API's becoming so important 17:21:30 PP: Hard to specify what is meant by "Complete API" 17:22:03 CL: We want to promote platform API's over DOM since its also compatible with other desktop applications. 17:23:21 CL: But of course Javascript needs to go to the DOM not the platform specific API. 17:25:30 CL: history of accessility 17:25:51 APIs, and work on cross platform accessibility apis 17:26:53 goal(?) promote a platform accessibility API's and the HTML DOM [incomplete because DOM doesn't do extensions, CSS, scripting] since the platform accessibility API is also compatible with other desktop applications. 17:28:08 CL: Want to promote implementation of engineered APIs by UAs and embedded UAs PLUS chrome extensions 17:29:29 CL: for use by ATs and implementation of HTML-DOM for in process components 17:30:38 KF: Active-x controls are in process but should still implement MSAA. 18:14:15 JA: We're back 18:14:25 JA: We need to spend some time on our charter 18:14:47 JA: till 215 18:15:08 JA: on our requirements - then we'll get to the charter 18:17:28 JA: 6.6... 18:18:35 CL: Covered already 18:18:53 JA: 6.7... 18:20:31 CL: How do we address shifting of controller... 18:20:43 PP: Who manages, what constitutes 18:22:35 JA: Keyboard conflict stuff should go under goal 1 18:23:07 KF: Other issue - conflict with access keys 18:23:23 CL: We don't address this in UAAG 18:23:47 JA: Actually this comes later... 18:24:42 JA: 7.1... 18:25:23 JA: Browsers need this functionality even if done by extension 18:25:59 KF: ctrl-A enough? 18:26:26 JA: Probably more granular better 18:27:19 KF: Not disagreeing 18:27:36 CL: Maybe controller is something to talk about separeatly 18:28:38 MVC reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller 18:30:52 PP: Keyboard handling at the core 18:31:06 CL: Core would also include strcutured nav etc 18:31:17 JA: 8.1... 18:31:36 wikipedia MVC page has decent definitions of model, view, and controller 18:32:40 JR: Handled 18:32:50 JA: 9.1... 18:34:03 JA: What is the author/UA responsivility split. 18:34:41 KF: Interesting...ex. ATs pretty good at dealing with onclick etc. 18:35:13 JA: Yes because of people not using mouse but not ScrRead (actually its onMouseOver) 18:36:23 JA: 9.2... 18:37:37 CL: Covered. 18:37:44 JA: 9.3... 18:37:53 JA: Consider combining 18:39:51 JA: 9.4... 18:42:35 JA: Covered. 18:44:21 JA: 4.12... 18:44:30 JA: 4.13... 18:44:38 JA: 6.10... 18:46:06 JA: Coverd in API stuff 18:46:13 JA: 7.3... 18:47:58 KF: Other issues - should browser even do that (inform of these things) - ex. if I'm running browser with SR is that anyone else's business. 18:48:56 KF: Personal info. 18:52:27 jr: continue to view user configuration as private information not to go back to the server/net 18:54:58 JR, CL: Discussion of types of info involved - platform preference, browser prefs... 18:55:51 added ?how should inprocess javascript etc. be provided platform specific information (high contrast mode), AT settings (yikes!), and user preferences? 18:56:05 as a second item to goal 1 18:58:42 pp: note, javascript may be used to do malicious things with the preference information. 18:59:36 8.2.. 18:59:57 CL, KF: Remove 19:01:19 9.5... 19:01:32 JA: Covered 19:01:51 9.8... 19:02:56 JA: Covered 19:05:06 CL: is the requirement that you can search for conditional content for any view. 19:05:19 ...is tooltip part of the view. 19:05:28 pp: should search the view 19:06:37 CL: prob browsers only searching visual view 19:07:29 cl: some screenreaders don't allow you to search for all words you have heard, because it only allow search of rendered content 19:07:30 KF: Not so straightforward... 19:07:42 KF: Let's say SR doesn't show title tags 19:08:26 cl: search the model that was rendered (view) based on user preferences 19:08:49 ...so if titles turned off by user, then can't search for title 19:08:53 CL: Searched what is shown 19:09:15 KF: SR's allow you to find alt text for images 19:11:51 KF: Base requirement would be just to search things that are displayed 19:12:44 9.9... 19:14:03 11.2... 19:16:30 JA: Finished review 19:17:21 Action JA, JR: Cleanup the goals list. 19:18:14 Action: JA, JR Cleanup the goals list 19:18:24 Action JR: Test 19:18:57 Topic: Charter Update 19:20:04 http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/draft_of_UA_charter.html 19:21:22 JA: Date stuff will be hanfled later 19:21:30 JA: IMportant stuff is scope 19:22:55 JR: likely to be 2.0 not 1.1 19:23:59 JA: Calling it "new version of WCAG" 19:24:47 WCAG=UAAG 19:26:09 KF: track implementation of UAAG PERIOD 19:26:35 KF: Should we scope #4 19:32:13 KF: Should we also have implementation report 19:45:34 1st quarter 2007 19:45:34 Publish Requirements document for UAAG 2.0 19:45:34 2nd quarter 2007 19:45:34 recruit appropriate members and invited experts for developing 19:45:34 4th quarter 2007 19:45:35 Publish Rough Draft of UAAG 2.0 19:45:37 3rd quarter 2008 19:45:40 Publish Last Call 19:45:41 Produce revised AUAG 1.X Techniques Note. 19:51:03 JA: Dependencies... 19:52:11 JA: Should we discuss XML... 19:54:16 action: ja bring up XML accessibility in UA to WAI coordinating group 20:09:12 Topic: New people etc. 20:09:47 KF: whats problem? 20:09:59 JA: Many ATs very specific... 20:10:08 JA: No one from cognitives... 20:10:21 JA: Just a few from dexterity, SRs. keyboards 20:10:29 JA: few meetings... 20:10:57 CL: Except IBM + blind user input - which led to SR focus 20:11:41 JA: Had David P., Earl Johnson, David Clark... 20:12:13 JA: WGBH folks, some I people 20:12:27 KF: What about Adobe? 20:12:56 JR: Bob Regan? 20:13:04 CL: Andrew Kirkpatrick 20:13:51 CL: New someone from Apple (Safari), Opera 20:14:14 KF: Target Doug Geoffey 20:14:34 JA: What about someone from ATIA who could then farm it out 20:15:40 CL: Need some ARIA people... 20:15:56 CL: Maybe someone from Google 20:18:07 JA: Maybe also draw from other WG's that we identified in CHarter 20:18:55 JR: How many do we want? 20:19:13 JA: Call for participation goes out widely. 20:21:17 JA: There needs to be a core 20:21:27 JA: of 6-8 people 20:22:13 JA: Also extension developers 20:23:19 CL: People on UVIP mailing list? 20:23:32 JA: What about standardista people? 20:24:55 JA: Real? 20:25:14 JA: What about someone from MS MediaPlayer? 20:25:19 KF: Will look into it. 20:26:43 What about access API architects. 20:29:18 CL: Opera - they also do some multimodal stuff 20:34:41 CL: Really need someone from SUN - they own accessibility API on SUN 20:38:41 CL: IBM Research? 20:45:48 Topic: big UAAG concverns about ARIA 20:46:37 PP: KEYBOARD: UA doesn't know what scripting is catching 20:47:14 PP: STYLING: CSS doesn't get into the DOM 20:48:05 PP: USER PREFERENCES: Platform and UA prefs (eg high contrast ) can't be accessed by scripting. 20:50:43 PP: FREEZING: UA can't freeze interaction with script execution the way it could with rendering 20:51:23 PP: PARTIAL CHANGE: Live regions being updated without UA knowing extent 20:59:27 Al has joined #ua 20:59:40 are you still going or are you enroute? 21:00:07 G531 21:00:17 Gates Tower, i.e. the other one. 21:00:28 Find elevators, come to 5th floor, head for W3C 21:00:36 We're in the W3C conference room. 21:06:45 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:06:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-minutes.html JR 21:06:52 RRSAgent, set logs public 21:07:21 RRSAgent, bye 21:07:21 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-actions.rdf : 21:07:21 ACTION: JA, JR Cleanup the goals list [1] 21:07:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-18-14 21:07:21 ACTION: JR to Test [2] 21:07:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-18-24 21:07:21 ACTION: ja bring up XML accessibility in UA to WAI coordinating group [3] 21:07:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-54-16