IRC log of ua on 2007-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:16:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc
14:16:54 [JR]
Meeting: WAI UA
14:17:20 [JR]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0009.html
14:17:37 [JR]
Scribe: JR
14:17:58 [JR]
Chair: Jim Allan
14:20:56 [parente]
http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2-req/
14:24:43 [cklaws]
This document provides guidelines for designing user agents that lower barriers to Web accessibility for people with disabilities (visual, hearing, physical, cognitive, and neurological).
14:24:52 [JR]
All: Editing Requirements Intro - using WCAG 2.0 Req document as a model
14:33:58 [judy]
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14:34:59 [jallan]
http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/wai-eval/index.php?option=Test%20Suites
14:36:21 [KFord]
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14:36:41 [JR]
All: Introduction edits: hilighting info from test suites.
14:37:46 [KFord]
Yes, I do have Skype.
14:40:52 [KFord]
Yes, trying to add as a contact now.
14:41:50 [KFord]
I'm told this contact isn't found, can you phone kellford1967 on skype?
14:47:18 [jallan]
Introduction
14:47:18 [jallan]
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (UAAG 1.0) provides guidelines for designing user agents that lower barriers to Web accessibility for people with disabilities (visual, hearing, physical, cognitive, and neurological).
14:47:33 [jallan]
Since the release of UAAG 1.0 as a W3C Recommendation in December 2002, the UA WG has received feedback about the usability, understandability, and applicability of the suite of documents.[changes in the techniques used in web pages (extensive scripting, changes in the use of technology used for the web, udates in the functionality of assistive technology, changes in accessibilty APIs, changes in platforms (pervasive, mobile devices, etc.) These changes in additio
14:48:29 [jallan]
The primary goal of UAAG 2.0 is the same as 1.0: to lower barriers to accessibility of user agents. Additional goals discussed in this document are:
14:48:29 [jallan]
Ensure that requirements may be applied across technologies
14:48:29 [jallan]
Ensure that the conformance requirements are clear
14:48:29 [jallan]
Design deliverables with ease of use in mind
14:48:29 [jallan]
shift focus back to base browser (make user agent base provide the accessibility model )
14:48:31 [jallan]
explain how to demonstrate compliance through an accessible view using the appropriate UIs (browsesr and extenstions, assistive technology
14:48:34 [jallan]
Clearly identify who benefits from accessible user agents
14:48:36 [jallan]
Ensure that the revision is "backwards and forward compatible"
14:52:44 [JR]
CL: CL's ideas for the requirements doc:
14:53:32 [JR]
CL: 1. Encourage adoption of ARIA techniques by all UA's
14:54:12 [judy]
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14:55:48 [JR]
CL: 2. More clearly define UAs as browsers but distinguish testing of compliance to distinguish plugins and ATs
14:56:16 [JR]
CL: 3. Restructure to align more closely with TAG and WCAG
14:57:44 [JR]
CL: 4. Audience - must attract all browser developers to participate as well as accessibility architects for APIs and accessibility markup architects
14:59:00 [JR]
CL: As well as consumers of accessibility APIs (AT developers) and end-users of user agents.
14:59:11 [JR]
KF: Plus Plugin developers
14:59:33 [JR]
UA: Wants to remove "plugin" and use "embedded UA"
14:59:53 [JR]
PP: Plugin to VIW - plugin to chrome
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VIW=VIEW
15:00:42 [JR]
PP: Use Case: FLASH in a doc has own model and view
15:01:15 [JR]
PP: FLASH implements accessibility API
15:02:57 [jallan]
plug-in vs extension vs model
15:02:57 [jallan]
flash - own ui, implements accessibilty api (part of infrastructure), provides content
15:04:13 [JR]
MODEL: Programmatic access
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VIEW: Is the UI (the chrome, AT, etc.)
15:06:35 [jallan]
model is the base that everything is built from or overlayed upon
15:07:18 [jallan]
view is the gui (chrome, AT, content view, etc.)
15:08:57 [jallan]
jr: might also split the view into chrome (UI) and content
15:10:24 [JR]
CL: Other views: Firevox, UIUC accessibility extension
15:11:05 [jallan]
use case: UIUC accessibility extension - extension to view (using api to get information), consumer of existing model, extents the browser ui to provide information to end user.
15:13:22 [JR]
JA: Brings up compound docs - where navigation and other things are made more uniform
15:19:05 [JR]
All: Discussion of model-view controller split as related to multimedia
15:21:35 [jallan]
flash/media-player/PDF - own ui, implements accessibilty api (part of infrastructure), provides content , both a model and the view, not part of the HTML DOM , embedded object (in HTML), may have own DOM/API, may expose public API so others can get at the information
15:21:53 [JR]
KF: Good use case - what would plugin developer do - ie Quicktime doesn't expose
15:22:20 [JR]
CL: Other use case - Web applications
15:24:13 [JR]
KF: Ex. tree view controls
15:27:48 [JR]
CL: ARIA doesn't handle keyboard nav at the moment.
15:28:18 [JR]
CL: Becky etc. writes style guides for widget sets specifying how to do keyboard nav
15:29:17 [jallan]
web application - own ui (provided by the author, not the model), repurposes functioning of standard controls and creates custom controls [author must use WEB-ARIA to be accessible], doesn't implement native/platform API.
15:30:46 [jallan]
jr: can have a web application that is an editor
15:31:24 [jallan]
cl: try to get the browser to understand what is going on and provide the information to the APIs
15:31:41 [JR]
JR: Can have web content that is a user agent
15:32:07 [jallan]
cl: may be trouble with ARIA because of implementing its own keyboard navigation
15:32:57 [JR]
CL: It's a SMOP=Simple Matter of Programming
15:35:02 [jallan]
...not part of chrome, the browser can not interact and allow the user to modify the web-application's key bindings
15:36:12 [jallan]
cl: want to avoid off screen models, heuristics,
15:36:46 [JR]
All: Don't want things to be done site by site
15:38:21 [jallan]
all: problems with javascript, outside of the model, doesn't provide a model of what its doing, not part of the dom
15:38:44 [jallan]
..can assign keybindings,
15:39:38 [JR]
CL: Not people in accessibility creating this technology - access is reacting.
15:40:19 [jallan]
UAAG is trying to provide direction for developers to make access easier
15:42:58 [jallan]
CL: AT is not a model (may have its own model), it provides a view - consumes the controller model and provides output
15:57:48 [jallan]
Ensure that requirements may be applied across and interoperable with technologies (compound documents, scripting languages, operating systems, platforms (mobile, etc.), APIs, accessibilty architectures
15:57:48 [jallan]
Ensure that the conformance requirements are clear
15:57:48 [jallan]
Design deliverables with ease of use in mind
15:57:48 [jallan]
shift focus back to base browser (make user agent base provide the accessibility model)
15:57:48 [jallan]
explain how to demonstrate compliance through an accessible view using the appropriate UIs (browsesr and extenstions, assistive technology
15:57:51 [jallan]
Clearly identify who benefits from accessible user agents
15:57:53 [jallan]
Ensure that the revision is "backwards and forward compatible"
15:57:55 [jallan]
restructure to more closely align with ATAG and WCAG
16:00:49 [jallan]
http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/issues-jan11.htm
16:02:10 [JR]
CL: Also should add note on "reducing redundancy"
16:05:04 [JR]
JR,PP: Should keep stop bliking etc. for known things - "AL's 80-20 rule"
16:06:52 [JR]
JA,CL: Discuss customization - customization can be overload
16:07:02 [JR]
KF: Depends on implementation
16:07:24 [JR]
KF: One button - may do multiple things - plus profiles help
16:07:42 [JR]
JA: Yeah but may still be daunting
16:08:08 [JR]
CL: How do you make customization easier
16:08:51 [JR]
JA: ScrReader have many modes
16:09:23 [JR]
JA: Form in table runs into Form mode/Table mode interaction problems
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JA: Gives example of checkbox in form cell
16:10:59 [JR]
CL: Yeah but where do you want info pulled from?'
16:11:17 [JR]
JA: Other example - Form with prompts
16:11:39 [JR]
JA: Forms mode make instructions difficult
16:12:10 [JR]
JA: Finds himself on a "bunny trail".
16:14:43 [jallan]
CL: what about flashing things. what is the issue
16:14:51 [jallan]
jr: photo sensitive
16:15:14 [jallan]
JA: there are things that UA doesn't know about,
16:15:56 [jallan]
KF: push back to content develpers to create things that the UA can determine and make accessible control
16:16:13 [jallan]
JR: WCAG role for content developers
16:24:51 [jallan]
CL: UA need to address non-W3 technologies
16:30:07 [JR]
CL: Idea for MathML person - Neal Soiffer - Design Science
16:37:16 [JR]
KF: Let's move on
16:40:19 [JR]
JA: Going through issues doc...
16:42:33 [jallan]
goal 7 restructure to more closely align with ATAG and WCAG simplify but combining similar checkpoints, reducing redundancy
16:42:33 [jallan]
balance roles Author content and UA functionality (repair and control functions)
16:44:12 [JR]
JR: Once again we should be less absolute about compensating for author actions - since these can't always be predicted
16:44:58 [JR]
CL: CSS is a nother thing that author may use in ways that need to be fixed
16:47:04 [JR]
KF: Hard to do - UA has to look in CSS directly and use heuristics
16:47:28 [JR]
PP: In Linux it's easier because this info goes into the Linux access API
16:48:23 [JR]
PP, CL: Discuss bullets - are they content? In FF they are handled as content.
16:50:14 [JR]
JA: Skins...
16:50:36 [JR]
PP: FF uses CSS for XUL.
16:50:48 [JR]
KF: IE does not do this
16:51:57 [JR]
CL: Also access-aiding CSS like magnication style, high contrast style
16:52:49 [JR]
CL: Can cause prob - ex. author says "no scrollbars" but user stylesheet makes content too big too fit
16:56:56 [JR]
JA: Brings up voice settings
16:57:19 [JR]
JR, KF: This should be modular, applying to voice browsers but not to all UAs
16:59:38 [JR]
All: Discuss where to put chrome in the reqs
16:59:59 [JR]
JA: IE does extensions?
17:00:14 [JR]
KF: IE has had extensions for a long time
17:02:15 [JR]
KF: What burden on underlying technology to make extension experience accesible?
17:02:44 [JR]
PP: Right what to do in model...
17:03:17 [JR]
JA: Right - seen extensions in menu bars, other just change functionality, or something in status bar.
17:04:05 [JR]
JR: How much customization do extensions allow?
17:04:25 [JR]
KF: Suppose allow things to be added to areas that are not keyboard accessible.
17:04:45 [jallan]
pp: bad browser
17:04:55 [jallan]
JA: bad developer
17:05:22 [JR]
KF: ex. Toolbars hard to make keyboard accessibler
17:05:30 [JR]
JA: Same way in FF
17:06:28 [JR]
CL: Browser should enable the extension of the environment to be accessible
17:06:43 [JR]
PP: Right - mixed responsibility
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mixed=shared
17:08:48 [JR]
JA: 4.4...
17:11:58 [JR]
JA: 4.14...
17:12:19 [JR]
PP: User Javascript
17:12:27 [JR]
KF: Customizing the content view
17:12:37 [JR]
CL: Similar to Web Applications
17:14:07 [JR]
JR: Right but should it be a requirement?
17:15:07 [JR]
KF: So does user have to be able to change content?
17:18:12 [JR]
KF: If you enable someone to say linearize a table does this have to be accesible?
17:18:16 [JR]
JA: Yes
17:18:31 [JR]
CL: Right we're trying to figure out the divisions
17:18:50 [JR]
KF: THis goes into good ideas for more accessible views
17:19:13 [JR]
JA: Guideline 6...
17:20:24 [JR]
CL: We want to promote engineered APIs - "usa AN accessibility API"
17:20:58 [JR]
CL: DOM is incomplete - no javascript, no CSS< etc
17:21:11 [JR]
CL: That's why platform API's becoming so important
17:21:30 [JR]
PP: Hard to specify what is meant by "Complete API"
17:22:03 [JR]
CL: We want to promote platform API's over DOM since its also compatible with other desktop applications.
17:23:21 [JR]
CL: But of course Javascript needs to go to the DOM not the platform specific API.
17:25:30 [jallan]
CL: history of accessility
17:25:51 [jallan]
APIs, and work on cross platform accessibility apis
17:26:53 [jallan]
goal(?) promote a platform accessibility API's and the HTML DOM [incomplete because DOM doesn't do extensions, CSS, scripting] since the platform accessibility API is also compatible with other desktop applications.
17:28:08 [JR]
CL: Want to promote implementation of engineered APIs by UAs and embedded UAs PLUS chrome extensions
17:29:29 [JR]
CL: for use by ATs and implementation of HTML-DOM for in process components
17:30:38 [JR]
KF: Active-x controls are in process but should still implement MSAA.
18:14:15 [JR]
JA: We're back
18:14:25 [JR]
JA: We need to spend some time on our charter
18:14:47 [JR]
JA: till 215
18:15:08 [JR]
JA: on our requirements - then we'll get to the charter
18:17:28 [JR]
JA: 6.6...
18:18:35 [JR]
CL: Covered already
18:18:53 [JR]
JA: 6.7...
18:20:31 [JR]
CL: How do we address shifting of controller...
18:20:43 [JR]
PP: Who manages, what constitutes
18:22:35 [JR]
JA: Keyboard conflict stuff should go under goal 1
18:23:07 [JR]
KF: Other issue - conflict with access keys
18:23:23 [JR]
CL: We don't address this in UAAG
18:23:47 [JR]
JA: Actually this comes later...
18:24:42 [JR]
JA: 7.1...
18:25:23 [JR]
JA: Browsers need this functionality even if done by extension
18:25:59 [JR]
KF: ctrl-A enough?
18:26:26 [JR]
JA: Probably more granular better
18:27:19 [JR]
KF: Not disagreeing
18:27:36 [JR]
CL: Maybe controller is something to talk about separeatly
18:28:38 [parente]
MVC reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller
18:30:52 [JR]
PP: Keyboard handling at the core
18:31:06 [JR]
CL: Core would also include strcutured nav etc
18:31:17 [JR]
JA: 8.1...
18:31:36 [parente]
wikipedia MVC page has decent definitions of model, view, and controller
18:32:40 [JR]
JR: Handled
18:32:50 [JR]
JA: 9.1...
18:34:03 [JR]
JA: What is the author/UA responsivility split.
18:34:41 [JR]
KF: Interesting...ex. ATs pretty good at dealing with onclick etc.
18:35:13 [JR]
JA: Yes because of people not using mouse but not ScrRead (actually its onMouseOver)
18:36:23 [JR]
JA: 9.2...
18:37:37 [JR]
CL: Covered.
18:37:44 [JR]
JA: 9.3...
18:37:53 [JR]
JA: Consider combining
18:39:51 [JR]
JA: 9.4...
18:42:35 [JR]
JA: Covered.
18:44:21 [JR]
JA: 4.12...
18:44:30 [JR]
JA: 4.13...
18:44:38 [JR]
JA: 6.10...
18:46:06 [JR]
JA: Coverd in API stuff
18:46:13 [JR]
JA: 7.3...
18:47:58 [JR]
KF: Other issues - should browser even do that (inform of these things) - ex. if I'm running browser with SR is that anyone else's business.
18:48:56 [JR]
KF: Personal info.
18:52:27 [jallan]
jr: continue to view user configuration as private information not to go back to the server/net
18:54:58 [JR]
JR, CL: Discussion of types of info involved - platform preference, browser prefs...
18:55:51 [jallan]
added ?how should inprocess javascript etc. be provided platform specific information (high contrast mode), AT settings (yikes!), and user preferences?
18:56:05 [jallan]
as a second item to goal 1
18:58:42 [jallan]
pp: note, javascript may be used to do malicious things with the preference information.
18:59:36 [JR]
8.2..
18:59:57 [JR]
CL, KF: Remove
19:01:19 [JR]
9.5...
19:01:32 [JR]
JA: Covered
19:01:51 [JR]
9.8...
19:02:56 [JR]
JA: Covered
19:05:06 [jallan]
CL: is the requirement that you can search for conditional content for any view.
19:05:19 [jallan]
...is tooltip part of the view.
19:05:28 [jallan]
pp: should search the view
19:06:37 [JR]
CL: prob browsers only searching visual view
19:07:29 [jallan]
cl: some screenreaders don't allow you to search for all words you have heard, because it only allow search of rendered content
19:07:30 [JR]
KF: Not so straightforward...
19:07:42 [JR]
KF: Let's say SR doesn't show title tags
19:08:26 [jallan]
cl: search the model that was rendered (view) based on user preferences
19:08:49 [jallan]
...so if titles turned off by user, then can't search for title
19:08:53 [JR]
CL: Searched what is shown
19:09:15 [JR]
KF: SR's allow you to find alt text for images
19:11:51 [JR]
KF: Base requirement would be just to search things that are displayed
19:12:44 [JR]
9.9...
19:14:03 [JR]
11.2...
19:16:30 [JR]
JA: Finished review
19:17:21 [JR]
Action JA, JR: Cleanup the goals list.
19:18:14 [JR]
Action: JA, JR Cleanup the goals list
19:18:24 [JR]
Action JR: Test
19:18:57 [JR]
Topic: Charter Update
19:20:04 [KFord]
http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/draft_of_UA_charter.html
19:21:22 [JR]
JA: Date stuff will be hanfled later
19:21:30 [JR]
JA: IMportant stuff is scope
19:22:55 [JR]
JR: likely to be 2.0 not 1.1
19:23:59 [JR]
JA: Calling it "new version of WCAG"
19:24:47 [JR]
WCAG=UAAG
19:26:09 [JR]
KF: track implementation of UAAG PERIOD
19:26:35 [JR]
KF: Should we scope #4
19:32:13 [JR]
KF: Should we also have implementation report
19:45:34 [jallan]
1st quarter 2007
19:45:34 [jallan]
Publish Requirements document for UAAG 2.0
19:45:34 [jallan]
2nd quarter 2007
19:45:34 [jallan]
recruit appropriate members and invited experts for developing
19:45:34 [jallan]
4th quarter 2007
19:45:35 [jallan]
Publish Rough Draft of UAAG 2.0
19:45:37 [jallan]
3rd quarter 2008
19:45:40 [jallan]
Publish Last Call
19:45:41 [jallan]
Produce revised AUAG 1.X Techniques Note.
19:51:03 [JR]
JA: Dependencies...
19:52:11 [JR]
JA: Should we discuss XML...
19:54:16 [jallan]
action: ja bring up XML accessibility in UA to WAI coordinating group
20:09:12 [JR]
Topic: New people etc.
20:09:47 [JR]
KF: whats problem?
20:09:59 [JR]
JA: Many ATs very specific...
20:10:08 [JR]
JA: No one from cognitives...
20:10:21 [JR]
JA: Just a few from dexterity, SRs. keyboards
20:10:29 [JR]
JA: few meetings...
20:10:57 [JR]
CL: Except IBM + blind user input - which led to SR focus
20:11:41 [JR]
JA: Had David P., Earl Johnson, David Clark...
20:12:13 [JR]
JA: WGBH folks, some I people
20:12:27 [JR]
KF: What about Adobe?
20:12:56 [JR]
JR: Bob Regan?
20:13:04 [JR]
CL: Andrew Kirkpatrick
20:13:51 [JR]
CL: New someone from Apple (Safari), Opera
20:14:14 [JR]
KF: Target Doug Geoffey
20:14:34 [JR]
JA: What about someone from ATIA who could then farm it out
20:15:40 [JR]
CL: Need some ARIA people...
20:15:56 [JR]
CL: Maybe someone from Google
20:18:07 [JR]
JA: Maybe also draw from other WG's that we identified in CHarter
20:18:55 [JR]
JR: How many do we want?
20:19:13 [JR]
JA: Call for participation goes out widely.
20:21:17 [JR]
JA: There needs to be a core
20:21:27 [JR]
JA: of 6-8 people
20:22:13 [JR]
JA: Also extension developers
20:23:19 [JR]
CL: People on UVIP mailing list?
20:23:32 [JR]
JA: What about standardista people?
20:24:55 [JR]
JA: Real?
20:25:14 [JR]
JA: What about someone from MS MediaPlayer?
20:25:19 [JR]
KF: Will look into it.
20:26:43 [JR]
What about access API architects.
20:29:18 [JR]
CL: Opera - they also do some multimodal stuff
20:34:41 [JR]
CL: Really need someone from SUN - they own accessibility API on SUN
20:38:41 [JR]
CL: IBM Research?
20:45:48 [JR]
Topic: big UAAG concverns about ARIA
20:46:37 [JR]
PP: KEYBOARD: UA doesn't know what scripting is catching
20:47:14 [JR]
PP: STYLING: CSS doesn't get into the DOM
20:48:05 [JR]
PP: USER PREFERENCES: Platform and UA prefs (eg high contrast ) can't be accessed by scripting.
20:50:43 [JR]
PP: FREEZING: UA can't freeze interaction with script execution the way it could with rendering
20:51:23 [JR]
PP: PARTIAL CHANGE: Live regions being updated without UA knowing extent
20:59:27 [Al]
Al has joined #ua
20:59:40 [Al]
are you still going or are you enroute?
21:00:07 [Al]
G531
21:00:17 [Al]
Gates Tower, i.e. the other one.
21:00:28 [Al]
Find elevators, come to 5th floor, head for W3C
21:00:36 [Al]
We're in the W3C conference room.
21:06:45 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:06:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-minutes.html JR
21:06:52 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
21:07:21 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-actions.rdf :
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA, JR Cleanup the goals list [1]
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-18-14
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Test [2]
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-18-24
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ja bring up XML accessibility in UA to WAI coordinating group [3]
21:07:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-ua-irc#T19-54-16