13:41:20 RRSAgent has joined #swd 13:41:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-irc 13:41:30 Meeting: SWD Boston Face-to-face, day 2 13:41:33 Chair: Guus 13:43:37 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes Day 1 13:44:57 JonP_ has joined #swd 13:51:18 SW_SWD(f2f)8:30AM has now started 13:51:26 +MeetingRoom 13:51:37 zakim, meetingroom has JonP, IvanHerman, Ralph 13:51:37 +JonP, IvanHerman, Ralph; got it 13:51:53 Steven has joined #swd 13:52:05 +Michael_Hausenblas 13:55:19 zakim, mute me 13:55:19 sorry, mhausenblas, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:55:47 zakim, nick mhausenblas is michael 13:55:47 ok, RalphS, I now associate mhausenblas with Michael_Hausenblas 13:56:07 zakim, mute me 13:56:07 Michael_Hausenblas should now be muted 13:56:27 zakim, meetingroom also has Antoine 13:56:27 +Antoine; got it 13:56:50 zakim, meetingroom also has Guus 13:56:50 +Guus; got it 13:58:45 timbl has joined #swd 13:59:53 zakim, dial steven-617 13:59:53 ok, Steven; the call is being made 13:59:56 TomB has joined #swd 13:59:56 +Steven 14:00:00 zakim, meetingroom also has TimBL, Alistair 14:00:00 +TimBL, Alistair; got it 14:00:08 zakim, meetingroom also has Diego 14:00:08 +Diego; got it 14:00:42 +??P4 14:01:16 zakim, drop steven 14:01:16 Steven is being disconnected 14:01:18 -Steven 14:01:23 zakim, dial steven-617 14:01:23 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:01:24 +Steven 14:02:32 zakim, meetingroom also has Ben 14:02:32 +Ben; got it 14:02:35 -Steven 14:02:35 Antoine has joined #swd 14:02:36 MarkB_ has joined #swd 14:02:45 zakim, dial steven-617 14:02:45 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:02:46 +Steven 14:02:50 Guus has joined #swd 14:03:00 rrsagent, please make record public 14:03:28 Steven, with life generally? 14:03:57 -Steven 14:04:14 well, that too 14:05:34 zakim, dial steven-617 14:05:34 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:05:36 +Steven 14:06:03 +Mark_Birbeck 14:06:16 zakim, code? 14:06:16 the conference code is 79394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 14:06:42 -TomB 14:06:47 -Steven 14:07:02 +Steven 14:07:11 Ralph, I connected 14:07:38 benadida has joined #SWD 14:07:52 zakim, mute me 14:07:52 Steven should now be muted 14:08:16 I dialled in instead 14:08:37 aliman has joined #swd 14:10:07 zakim, meetingroom also has Kjetil 14:10:07 +Kjetil; got it 14:10:19 zakim, meetingroom also has Fabien 14:10:19 +Fabien; got it 14:11:01 scribenick:Antoine 14:11:31 Topic: RDFa 14:11:39 Guus: Ben proposed to start with use case doc 14:11:59 Ben: we are continueing work with RDFa syntax, primer and UC doc 14:12:07 ... compiling rdfa test cases 14:12:24 ... keep in mind that html wg is still under review 14:12:30 Review ended last friday 14:12:41 TomB has joined #swd 14:12:43 berrueta has joined #swd 14:13:00 ... we expect that the rdfa syntax can be adapted to every html syntax 14:13:11 ... adapting test cases etc 14:13:32 + +1.617.475.aaaa 14:13:35 Guus: overall schedule 14:13:50 Ben: push primer further with help with WG 14:14:13 and use case 14:14:14 - +1.617.475.aaaa 14:14:17 + +1.617.475.aabb 14:14:31 ... syntax and html module withing 6-8 weeks 14:14:35 zakim, aabb is TomB 14:14:35 +TomB; got it 14:15:01 Ivan: if it is record track, end of february would be for last call? 14:15:13 Ben: no. That was not the idea for now 14:15:28 s/record/W3C Recommentation/ 14:15:37 Ben: last call means technical issues are addressed 14:15:50 ... we still expect reactions and comments and various aspect 14:16:01 s/and various/on various 14:16:06 kjetilk has joined #swd 14:16:07 s/entation/endation/ 14:16:33 Guus: two issues 14:16:44 ... pushing things further with swd wg 14:16:54 ... and html aspect 14:16:54 s/withing/within/ 14:17:11 ... propose to bundle 14:17:19 q+ 14:17:33 Guus: can this wg publish a rec on a module for html? 14:17:38 ack me 14:17:45 q+ 14:17:49 Ralph: our charter allows for that 14:17:57 -TomB 14:18:08 ... the question is still open 14:18:31 Steven: dropping html wg: existing one or proposed one? 14:18:44 ... if existing one, no problem with publishing a rec 14:19:12 zakim, mute me 14:19:12 Steven should now be muted 14:19:16 Ivan: there are precedents of modules published by other activities 14:19:32 Mark: it's not a modification of html 14:19:41 ... it's a module which uses xhtml techniques 14:20:00 Ben: bundle idea seems good idea to me 14:20:09 TimBL: importment is deployment strategy 14:20:19 s/xhtml techniques/XHTML 1.1 M12N techniques/ 14:20:38 ... pushing RDF into attributes. Current browser do nothing with attributes 14:20:43 Ben: yes 14:21:02 TimBL: other issue are value and validation 14:21:23 zakim, Jonathan_Rees just arrived in meetingroom 14:21:23 +Jonathan_Rees; got it 14:21:30 Ben: content management tools need publishing and validation, yes 14:21:53 Ben: I don't want to discuss the syntax 14:21:59 ... I want to discuss rec or not 14:22:00 s/value/HTML tidy/ 14:22:22 Guus: my feeling: discussion on UC is different if we go for rec track 14:22:43 Ralph: short term question is readiness to publish new version of doc 14:23:02 ... how much is needed depending on our choosing note or rec 14:23:37 Guus: would the UC doc content need to be different? 14:23:56 Guus: postpone the discussion, ack that doc might end in rec track 14:24:01 use case doc: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/scenarios/ 14:24:20 berrueta_ has joined #swd 14:24:22 Ben: Use case doc 14:24:47 ... Guus review: should we mention RDFa? 14:25:06 ... we modeled document after griddl 14:25:22 Guus: strictly speaking it is not a UC doc if you mention RDFa 14:25:34 ... to avoid too much technology-driven document 14:25:44 ... and overlap between primer and UC 14:25:57 Ben: OK 14:26:01 does this also effect the code snippets? 14:26:23 Ralph: it would be artificial 14:26:43 Guus: XXX shows it was possible to rationalize after design 14:26:44 +??P8 14:27:08 s/XXX/Parnas 14:27:12 s/XXX/Parnas/ 14:27:15 TimBL: it makes sense to explain the kind of things you want to do 14:27:22 -> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=9800 14:27:47 Ralph: there are still things undecided 14:27:52 q+ 14:27:59 ... eg. how much rdf/xml we want in rdf/html 14:28:10 ... a use case can explain the boudaries we want to hav 14:28:19 Guus: UC are useful for scoping 14:28:29 q+ 14:28:39 ... explaining to the outside public our decision 14:28:53 Ben: there was already some consultation outside 14:29:15 TimBL: did you find case for publishing full RDF? 14:29:20 FabienG has joined #swd 14:29:32 ... or just a chunk? 14:29:52 Ben: there were case (like bibtex) that caused us to rethink 14:30:08 TimBL: are there thing we cannot do? 14:30:23 Ivan: problem of expressing lists/containers 14:30:26 Tim: Is there a well-defined list about what can't be expressed? 14:30:34 ... reification, but less important 14:30:37 Tim: reification is negatively importnat IMHO 14:30:45 Ben: we have also datatypes 14:30:50 q? 14:31:10 Ben: action to take that list of exclusions of the wiki 14:31:29 ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa 14:32:18 Mark: RDF community might want us to resolve their problems according to current best practices, e.g. for reification 14:32:28 q? 14:32:32 q+ 14:32:35 ... not clear which way we should go to the broader community 14:32:36 zakim, who is muted? 14:32:36 I see Michael_Hausenblas, Steven, TomB muted 14:32:45 Zakim, please unmute me 14:32:45 Michael_Hausenblas should no longer be muted 14:32:47 ... I think Guus point on UC is relevant 14:32:58 ... not having sample markup makes sense 14:33:17 q+ to talk about GRDDL use cases doc 14:33:35 ... seems wrong that UC doc looks like primer 14:34:18 Ben: what is the WG opinion on removing rdfa code from doc? 14:34:30 WG: approves 14:34:42 zakim, Stephen_Williams just arrived in meetingroom 14:34:42 +Stephen_Williams; got it 14:35:04 +1 on removing RDFa snippets from UC doc 14:35:36 I'm abstaining from voting since I'm very new to the group. Will start voting when I feel I have a clue 14:35:40 Michael: link with microformats? 14:35:48 Guus: could be a good test 14:35:58 q+ to say selling RDFa in use cases potentially wrong 14:36:15 Ben: the requirement we have now are likely to go further than microformats 14:36:19 RalphS, you wanted to comment on building brand 14:36:32 Zakim, please mute me 14:36:32 Michael_Hausenblas should now be muted 14:36:55 Ralph: it's ok to mention rdfa some times, to build a brand 14:37:31 Guus: removing the code is what is really needed 14:37:39 instead of remove RDFa code, why not ADD microformat code :) 14:38:05 Ivan: From the very start the goal what that rdf/xml could be fully embedded in html 14:38:18 s/what/was/ 14:38:20 ... in some cases it proved to be too complicated 14:38:26 q+ 14:38:27 ... like for reification 14:38:40 ... UCs do not include reification now 14:38:49 q+ To explain my outstanding action item on reification v. n-aray relationships. 14:38:54 ... we could revisit that goal 14:39:26 Ben: we could annotate triples like provenance of license info 14:39:34 q+ re collections 14:39:41 q+ to discuss collections 14:39:44 FabienG, you wanted to talk about GRDDL use cases doc 14:39:48 q- re 14:39:53 Fabien: there is no code is griddl use cases 14:39:56 q- collections 14:40:08 ... first part: problem we propose to address, no mention to griddl 14:40:20 ... second part: how griddl could solve the problem 14:40:55 Alistair: RDFa primer is best doc to go for info 14:41:07 aliman, you wanted to say selling RDFa in use cases potentially wrong 14:41:23 GRDDL use case scenario doc for info : http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm 14:41:34 Guus: I would prefer if RDFa design goal were not trying to address complete RDF 14:41:42 s/goal/goals 14:42:02 ... it shoudl be easy to understand, simple document 14:42:04 q+ to propose a resolution re: RDF/XML completeness 14:42:29 ... if we spend one year on addressing everything we migh propose something scary for the community 14:42:47 s/migh/might 14:43:01 Elisa has joined #swd 14:43:06 Mark: this was a flexible design goal, no criterion for success 14:43:51 q? 14:44:09 +Elisa_Kendall 14:44:28 ... originally there were request like this document is about that with 80% certainty 14:44:51 +1 to Mark 14:44:52 ... there could be other way that reification 14:44:59 s/way/ways 14:45:34 ... I argue against too much simplicity 14:45:54 Guus: there are conflicting requirements for any technology 14:46:14 we could also do a CFA ( as http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/WD-DC) 14:46:18 Mark seems to augur forinformation about triples, which to me suggests graph literals .. a way of putting a wrapper around some rdf/a. 14:46:18 ... we have too solve this req of simplicity while supporting all the use case 14:46:47 ... there is no problem with having such conflicting req 14:46:52 q? 14:47:00 MarkB_, you wanted to explain my outstanding action item on reification v. n-aray relationships. 14:47:05 ack 14:47:24 timbl, you wanted to discuss collections 14:47:48 TimBL: drawing the line between what's in and out 14:48:07 ... annotating triples is important 14:48:25 ... RDF bag and sequences are difficult to work with 14:48:43 ... some applications (creative commons) use it 14:48:52 q+ 14:48:54 ... also valid for sequences 14:49:14 q+ to ask about v2 14:49:29 Ben: ol in html embodies collection, we try to see that 14:49:43 q+ 14:49:55 ol a collection, ul a class maybe 14:50:37 PROPOSE: RDFa is not required to support every feature of RDF/XML 14:50:40 Ralph: we should apply the same process as for SKOS UCs yesterday 14:51:30 ... we have to wait for a use case before deciding wether reification is in or not 14:52:08 Zakim, please unmute me 14:52:08 Michael_Hausenblas should no longer be muted 14:52:19 RalphS, you wanted to propose a resolution re: RDF/XML completeness 14:52:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Methodology 14:52:55 Michael: make sense to make a critical sector analysis on wiki? 14:53:23 q- 14:53:56 Guus: it could be a good idea, it would take more time 14:53:58 s/sector/factor 14:54:16 ... in Rule wg, use cases were much more difficult to analyse 14:54:43 kjetilk, you wanted to ask about v2 14:54:59 Kjetilk: we have good idea of what people want to do now 14:55:10 ... and what people might want to do later 14:55:10 Zakim, please mute me 14:55:10 Michael_Hausenblas should now be muted 14:55:28 ... could we introduce a version 1 and a version 2? 14:55:46 Ben: in theory, yes, in practice we would have to be really careful 14:55:51 q? 14:56:19 PROPOSE: RDFa is not required to support every feature of RDF/XML 14:56:59 WG agrees 14:57:33 RESOLVED by consensus: RDFa is not required to support every feature of RDF/XML 14:57:51 Ben: use case 1: basic structured blogging 14:58:41 Ivan: for many people this might not be relevant: many bloggers do not use html 14:59:08 Ben: this use case means that people can write plug-ins to do that 14:59:37 q+ 15:00:07 Ben: UC1 should be clearer about the tool support 15:01:13 Mark: there might be a use case with markup by hand 15:01:31 Ben: UC2: publishing an event 15:02:53 ... could go to a specific tool (creative common) to get a machine-readable chunk and copy-paste in html page 15:03:19 ... UC1 could be for tool support for RDFa, UC2 more wizard-like 15:03:37 Ivan: one big feature of RDFa is mixing vocabularies 15:03:51 ... if we look at this UC, microformats could do that 15:04:10 ... event information should mix different vocabulary 15:04:21 ... just some words to be added to the text 15:04:32 q+ 15:04:46 TimBL: put the RDF to include in the HTML in the example 15:05:02 Mark: other benefit is the use of existing taxonomies 15:05:16 ... problem with microformat is that you have to reinvent taxonomies 15:05:39 ... should we include two different use cases? 15:06:14 Ivan: additional benefit: author can add his own namespace 15:06:35 Ivan: mix events, bibtex, geolocation 15:06:35 Ben: use case 3: content management metadata 15:06:50 ... various decisions about content 15:06:54 q+to suggest that we explicitly discuss at the end of the document why MF are not sufficient for handling the use cases 15:07:15 ... the structured data may not be rendered 15:07:22 +1 to Guus suggestion 15:07:55 Ivan: this code seems to be xhtml2 perhaps not wisest thing to do 15:08:34 q+ 15:08:43 ... also technical issue: if final design is only to add attributes or to change content model 15:09:04 ... raise more problems if we want to combine with text 15:09:30 Ben: this is a fair comment, to take into account 15:10:24 Ben: use case 4: creative commons use case 15:10:47 ... self contained chunk added in html 15:11:19 Guus: section in the document where it is said that MF are not enough to solve the problems 15:11:49 Ralph: I think we do that by presenting use cases 15:12:04 ... if MF meet challenges then MF are the solution 15:12:27 q? 15:12:35 ack guus 15:12:35 Guus, you wanted to suggest that we explicitly discuss at the end of the document why MF are not sufficient for handling the use cases 15:13:23 Mark: for the simple use case we could show that MF and RDFa can solve the problem 15:13:30 +1 15:13:33 ... and for complex ones that only RDFa is OK 15:13:47 s/ones/ones, 15:13:59 Ben: UC5: clipboard 15:14:12 ... comment by alistair this was not a distinct UC 15:14:39 ... I think it is important, I can demo it 15:15:02 Guus: there is no problem with overlapping UCs 15:15:46 Alistair: copy-pasting in html has nothing with RDFA 15:16:12 Zakim, please unmute me 15:16:12 Michael_Hausenblas should no longer be muted 15:16:12 ... the point is that if I copy html with rdfa statement, I want them to be included when pasting 15:16:23 q? 15:17:46 Ben: there should be a way to associate with a certain region of the interface some statements 15:18:07 ... that should be copy-pasted and brought somewhere else 15:18:25 TimBL: the need is to copy-paste html with all the rdfa about this piece 15:19:00 TimBL: there's a sense of locality to the RDFa and HTML markup 15:19:04 Ben: should emphasize the need for localize relevant rdfa statements for copy-paste 15:19:05 depends on the abilit to localize the data to a part of the doc 15:19:26 Ben: UC6: semantic wiki 15:19:36 q+ to talk about GRDDL equivalent use case : http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/#wiki_use_case 15:19:48 ... rdfa as input when editing wiki and having it in result 15:19:51 q+ 15:20:08 Ivan: is that really rdfa? there would be a different syntax 15:20:49 http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/#wiki_use_case 15:21:06 ack fabien 15:21:06 FabienG, you wanted to talk about GRDDL equivalent use case : http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/#wiki_use_case 15:21:11 Fabien: good idea to link with the griddl wiki UC 15:21:36 ... lot of semantic wiki get rid of wikiML and just copy-paste 15:22:08 ... wysiwyg interfaces are preferred 15:22:11 ack mich 15:22:23 Michael: two issues 15:22:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/mmsem/wiki/MichaelHausenblas 15:22:34 example of WYSIWYG interface using XHTML and RDFa for a wiki: http://argentera.inria.fr/wiki/data/Main/MainHome.jsp 15:22:40 ... requirement link to multimedia semantics WG 15:23:00 ... using a wiki syntax related to rdfa 15:23:40 s/griddl/GRDDL 15:24:23 Ben: let's not focus on rdfa as input 15:24:33 ... but you could paste rdfa 15:24:36 ack 15:25:00 q+ to ask about bbcode in foras 15:25:13 ack Ralph 15:25:17 ack kje 15:25:17 kjetilk, you wanted to ask about bbcode in foras 15:25:46 can you provide a pointer, please? 15:26:13 BBCode : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode 15:26:21 thanks 15:26:24 Ben: UC6: strutured publishing by scientists 15:26:37 ... motivated by existing chemist blog 15:27:09 ... UC is more advanced user agent, getting local RDF 15:27:38 Ivan: so emphasis is on adding some sexy UI to visualize the RDF info 15:27:39 q+ 15:27:42 -Michael_Hausenblas 15:27:57 ... what I like is reference to other community 15:28:18 ... you should put some more reference to creative commons 15:28:27 s/creative commons/science commons/ 15:29:29 ... The difference here with MF is that vocabularies are huge 15:29:44 Mark: I agree with that 15:30:25 ... perhaps the structured blogging UC should be different 15:30:26 ack mark 15:30:31 ack Ralph 15:30:31 RalphS, you wanted to note reference to browser enhancement 15:31:01 Ralph: this last UC mentions application-specific extensions 15:31:17 q+ for 3 iuse cases 15:31:23 Guus: brainstorm with suggestions of applications 15:31:26 q+ 15:31:38 TimBL: 3 UCS 15:31:50 ack tim 15:32:24 ... 1: have RDF recording a collection of authors 15:32:48 ... bibtex can be used as example, but point should be made that order should be kept 15:33:16 ... 2: UC with unordered list: list of references for a WG 15:33:35 ... owl:oneOf 15:34:40 ... 3: UC: collect a foaf file manually done 15:35:14 q+ just to list the GRDDL use cases in case one could be inspiring. 15:37:00 q- just 15:37:18 q+ to list the GRDDL use cases in case one could be inspiring. 15:37:24 q+ 15:38:21 ack Fabien 15:38:21 FabienG, you wanted to list the GRDDL use cases in case one could be inspiring. 15:38:28 Fabien: 3 use cases from GRDDL 15:39:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/ 15:39:39 [[ 15:39:39 # Use case #1 - Scheduling : Jane is trying to coordinate a meeting. 15:39:39 # Use case #2 - Health Care: Querying an XML-based clinical data using an standard ontology 15:39:39 # Use case #3 - Aggregating data: Stephan wants a synthetic review before buying a guitar. 15:39:39