14:26:34 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:26:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc 14:26:39 zakim, this will be DAWG 14:26:40 ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:26:49 Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly 14:26:57 Chair: LeeF 14:27:01 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035.html 14:27:17 Regrets: EliasT, Souri, iv_an_ru_ 14:27:33 agenda + Convene 14:27:40 agenda + Review ACTION Items 14:27:46 agenda + Test suite - syntax tests 14:27:55 agenda + Minimal test suite? 14:28:02 agenda + Syntax tests - classification? 14:28:07 agenda + rq25 status 14:28:16 jeen has joined #dawg 14:28:17 zakim, code? 14:28:17 the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndyS 14:28:40 Exactly! 14:28:45 :-) 14:28:56 SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started 14:29:03 +??P9 14:29:08 zakim, ??P9 is me 14:29:08 +AndyS; got it 14:29:09 +LeeF 14:29:11 -AndyS 14:29:13 +AndyS 14:29:35 +Simon_Raboczi 14:30:20 +??P12 14:30:27 Zakim, ??P12 is me 14:30:27 +jeen; got it 14:30:34 Just a second, I'll try toggling the auto-gain. 14:31:13 +Orri_Erling 14:31:17 Zakim, mute me 14:31:17 Simon_Raboczi should now be muted 14:31:29 Hmm, okay -- that noise isn't me. 14:31:40 zakim, who's speaking? 14:31:50 LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (48%), Orri_Erling (58%) 14:32:06 -AndyS 14:32:08 -Orri_Erling 14:32:20 Zakim, unmute me 14:32:20 Simon_Raboczi should no longer be muted 14:33:03 +Orri_Erling 14:33:21 +??P13 14:33:32 zakim, ??P13 is me 14:33:32 +AndyS; got it 14:33:36 patH has joined #dawg 14:34:19 EricP? 14:35:03 Hey Pat, did you get email from me about the section 5 text? 14:36:04 Hi Simon. I got something from Andy, just reading email now. 14:36:22 (Sorry about that!) 14:36:43 Pat, are you dialling in? 14:36:52 Yes, Im on my way. 2 minutes. 14:37:07 zakim, take up agendum 0 14:37:07 agendum 0. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF] 14:37:12 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:37:12 agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF] 14:37:36 +PatH 14:38:04 zakim, pick a scribe, please 14:38:04 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatH 14:38:19 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:38:19 On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH 14:39:04 zakim, pick a scribe 14:39:04 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling 14:39:05 I'll preemptively volunteer for Feb 6, though. 14:39:11 zakim, pick a scribe 14:39:11 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jeen 14:39:16 zakim, pick a scribe 14:39:16 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF 14:39:20 zakim, pick a scribe 14:39:20 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling 14:39:24 zakim, pick a scribe 14:39:24 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simon_Raboczi 14:39:48 Meet next: 30 Jan, PatH to scribe 14:40:12 agenda + Bob MacGregor's reply 14:40:43 Orri: Orri of OpenLink Software 14:40:54 Orri's intro: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0037.html 14:41:05 ... background in AI and databases; made author of SQL and core functionality of Virtuoso database 14:41:19 made/main? 14:41:28 s/made/main 14:42:09 Orri: sees RDF as the lingua franca for data integration on the Net and enterprise 14:42:29 zakim, take up agenda 2 14:42:29 agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF] 14:42:51 ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS 14:42:52 DONE 14:43:01 ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) 14:43:02 DONE 14:43:18 ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25 14:43:19 DONE 14:43:45 ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests 14:43:47 CONTINNUE 14:43:56 ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put 14:43:59 CONTINUES 14:44:17 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:44:17 agendum 3. "Test suite - syntax tests" taken up [from LeeF] 14:44:43 Jeen's messages -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0026.html 14:45:08 test suite reorg -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/ 14:45:57 LeeF: Ran the syntax tests -- failures were either from unknown functions or Unicode escape problems (\u) 14:46:07 ... eyeballed problem tests and were convinced that problems were with implementation and not tests 14:46:41 Jeen: Similar for Sesame parser -- failing tests seemed to be OK tests but implementation problems 14:47:14 ... one issue I ran into was with the resolution relative URIs 14:47:20 Scribe: LeeF 14:47:43 ... our parser does not have a functionality for dealing with queries from an embedded entity so it does not handle base URIs set from outside the query 14:48:17 eek! 14:48:23 So, the test is *requiring* local IRI support to pass. 14:48:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html#iriRefs 14:48:47 + +33.9.52.56.aaaa 14:50:43 ericP: could we change the tests to not test that particular issue [relative URI resolution]? 14:50:55 Jeen: Including a BASE clause in the test would fix it. 14:50:57 jeen: as far as I'm concerned, adding a base URI would fix it 14:51:07 AndyS: queries already have a notion of a base as they're named by URI 14:52:18 rel URI is part of the grammar as noted above 14:52:42 AndyS: resoltuion of relative URIs *is* parse related 14:53:25 PROPOSAL: not test anything hard 14:53:36 Opposed. 14:53:40 SELECT ?s ?p ?o { ?s ?p ?o } 14:54:19 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-general-01.rq 14:54:30 jeen: what if we added a specific parser test for relative URIs, and did not use them (or used them with a BASE clause) in the rest of the syntax tests? 14:55:29 Gicves DAWG a new meaning 14:56:28 EricP, it's an issue of being able to set up a standard test environment, when part of the environment is the location you're testing in. O_o 14:56:56 AndyS: the syntax-general* tests are about RDF termsand this is one feature for that. 14:57:17 Just adding BASE clauses means the non-BASE codepath doesn't get tested... :/ 14:58:42 ericP: what if we have some queries whose only purpose is to test relative URIs with no BASE clause (and add BASEs to the rest) ? 14:58:56 jeen: Perhaps these queries are actually designed to test this particular feature 14:59:00 s/syntax-general/syntax-terms/g ??? 15:00:25 syntax-function-01.rq 15:00:34 Leef: Inquires whether the "unknown function" situation is related to this issue? 15:00:34 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-function-01.rq 15:01:46 AndyS: No guarantee of any functions that exist 15:01:53 ericP: We could make one up for tests and let people know that 15:02:11 AndyS: I think that q:name - http://example.org/name - is the only one we use 15:02:56 ericP: If we changed this to w3.org/.... we could put a resolvable document there 15:04:33 AndyS: I'd like to have a test for zero arguments, one argument, two arguments, ... 15:04:40 s/a test/a syntax test 15:07:04 echo concat | tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m 15:07:07 pbapng 15:07:28 I have to leave for about 5 mins. Back soon. 15:09:15 Back now. 15:10:21 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/bnodes-missing-pvalues-01.rq 15:11:09 revision 1.1 15:11:10 date: 2005/06/30 15:13:27 ARQ passes 181 syntax tests. 15:13:35 zakim, mute me 15:13:35 jeen should now be muted 15:14:09 PROPOSED: To approve the syntax tests referenced by http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/manifest-syntax.ttl conditional on renaming all negative tests to include -bad- 15:14:48 APPROVED 15:14:51 RESOLVED 15:15:09 topic: #dawg Data Access Working Group weekly telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035 15:15:28 ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved 15:15:29 ericP has changed the topic to: Data Access Working Group weekly telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035 15:15:47 zakim, agenda? 15:15:47 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 15:15:48 1. Convene [from LeeF] 15:15:49 2. Review ACTION Items [from LeeF] 15:15:50 3. Test suite - syntax tests [from LeeF] 15:15:51 4. Minimal test suite? [from LeeF] 15:15:52 5. Syntax tests - classification? [from LeeF] 15:15:53 6. rq25 status [from LeeF] 15:15:54 7. Bob MacGregor's reply [from LeeF] 15:16:19 No objection to skipping ahead to item 6. 15:16:23 zakim, take up agenda 6 15:16:24 agendum 6. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF] 15:16:28 zakim, unmute me 15:16:28 jeen should no longer be muted 15:17:12 LeeF: Souri, Orri and SteveH have agreed to do an early review of rq25 (~this week or next) 15:17:35 LeeF: Simon and Kendall have agreed to do later reviews. 15:18:16 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/20070123124424.GD5137@w3.org ericP's issues from rq25 15:18:26 EricP: Has noted various things during an editor's pass over rq25 15:19:31 WHERE { _:who foaf:mboxMD5 "A2BA23432B434443D45DF655A6C6E6E"; 15:19:34 foaf:nick ?nick 15:19:34 OPTIONAL { _:who foaf:mbox ?mbox } } 15:21:54 ericP: I think that this query is confusing with _:who acting as a different blank node in two different BGPs 15:22:20 AndyS: We need this for extension - for instance, sending BGP components off to a DL reasoner treating it as an existential 15:22:34 AndyS: If it were a named variable, you'd be obliged to come back with a binding for it 15:23:31 patH: I think that's an implementation issue -- if we specify that the blank node is the same, they'll need to keep track 15:24:18 I think a better way to think of _:who is as a "blank variable" -- the only difference between it and a "named" variable is that we're obliged to project it away. (Not sure what the impact on cardinality is, off the top of my head.) 15:25:04 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:25:05 On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH, +33.9.52.56.aaaa 15:25:43 LeeF: Where do people lean on bnode scope? 15:26:02 me too 15:26:50 SimonR: look like blank nodes, but act like variables (this is what we worked through in November) 15:27:34 jeen: +1 Simon. Would like to check how our implementation handles it. 15:28:40 Orri: My initial reaction is that wherever something is referred to by a name it should be the same thing, but not familiar with counter arguments 15:28:53 zakim, +33.9.52.56.aaaa is ericP 15:28:53 +ericP; got it 15:29:14 AndyS: We can make it easier; need to respect that blank nodes are different than query variables - would suggest that it's illegal to use the same bnode label across graph patterns 15:29:23 AndyS: Suggests making it illegal to reuse bnode labels between BGPs. 15:30:11 PatH: Thinks the bnode ID scope ought to be the "document" boundary. In fact, thinks that scope should be across BGPs. 15:30:12 patH: i think the scope of the bnode IDs should be the "document" -- i think it violates RDF design to have bnode id scope smaller than document boundary -- implies that bnode id scope cross BGPs 15:31:05 ericP: Initial thought is that the example in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 is a conundrum query 15:32:10 ... andy's suggestion would work - would further differentiate blank nodes, reserving some space for DL folks to work with them 15:32:27 I think it'd be helpful to rename them as "bvars" to avoid confusion. 15:32:32 ... leaning towards they're just variables 15:32:44 +1 15:33:11 Proposed and tacitly approved to go into extra time. 15:34:28 ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope 15:37:35 suggest distinguish two issues: DL folk insist (correctly) that bnodes are not the same as unnamed variables (issue 1); but the scope of bnodes across parts of a query seems klike a different issue. 15:37:43 klike/like 15:37:44 LeeF: Thinks consensus seems to be forming around treating bnode IDs as scoped to the query. Would like Kendall's thoughts particularly for DL input. 15:38:06 LeeF: Will definitely put this on next week's agenda. 15:39:11 AndyS: Worried about reopening a previous decision that BGPs were the unit of entailment. 15:39:13 AndyS: Changing this would undo the principle of the LC1 decision to make the BGP the extension point 15:42:21 ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query 15:44:20 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 15:44:38 7 Matching Alternatives 15:44:38 Query results involving a pattern containing GP1 and GP2 will 15:44:38 include separate solutions for each match where GP1 and GP2 give 15:44:38 rise to *different* sets of bindings. 15:45:30 AndyS: The algebra says that SELECT * { {?s ?p ?o } UNION {?s ?p ?o}} will hae duplicate solutions 15:46:21 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:46:21 agendum 7. "Bob MacGregor's reply" taken up [from LeeF] 15:46:47 AndyS: His examples will change when the algebra come along - what should we do about that? 15:47:10 { FILTER(?x) } will be a change 15:48:57 ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra 15:50:01 Adjourned at 15:50 Z. 15:50:03 -Orri_Erling 15:50:09 -PatH 15:50:26 -Simon_Raboczi 15:50:53 The modified test names work for me. 15:51:53 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:51:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-minutes.html LeeF 15:51:58 rrsagent, makes logs world-access 15:51:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs world-access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:52:08 rrsagent, make logs world access 15:52:08 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:52:20 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/att-0034/scanTests_syntax-sparql_1_2_3__grammar:2007-01-09 15:59:37 rrsagent, make logs world-access 16:02:45 http://www.w3.org/2007/01/16-dawg-minutes 16:02:53 -jeen 16:06:52 -ericP 16:06:53 -LeeF 16:06:59 rrsagent, please leave 16:06:59 I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-actions.rdf : 16:06:59 ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS [1] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-42-51 16:06:59 ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) [2] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-01 16:06:59 ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25 [3] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-18 16:06:59 ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [4] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-45 16:06:59 ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [5] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-56 16:06:59 ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved [6] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-15-28 16:06:59 ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope [7] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-34-28 16:06:59 ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query [8] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-42-21 16:06:59 ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra [9] 16:06:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-48-57