IRC log of dawg on 2007-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:26:34 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:26:34 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc

14:26:39 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be DAWG

14:26:40 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:26:49 [LeeF]

Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly

14:26:57 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

14:27:01 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035.html

14:27:17 [LeeF]

Regrets: EliasT, Souri, iv_an_ru_

14:27:33 [LeeF]

agenda + Convene

14:27:40 [LeeF]

agenda + Review ACTION Items

14:27:46 [LeeF]

agenda + Test suite - syntax tests

14:27:55 [LeeF]

agenda + Minimal test suite?

14:28:02 [LeeF]

agenda + Syntax tests - classification?

14:28:07 [LeeF]

agenda + rq25 status

14:28:16 [jeen]

jeen has joined #dawg

14:28:17 [AndyS]

zakim, code?

14:28:17 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndyS

14:28:40 [AndyS]

Exactly!

14:28:45 [LeeF]

:-)

14:28:56 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started

14:29:03 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:29:08 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P9 is me

14:29:08 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:29:09 [Zakim]

+LeeF

14:29:11 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:29:13 [Zakim]

+AndyS

14:29:35 [Zakim]

+Simon_Raboczi

14:30:20 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:30:27 [jeen]

Zakim, ??P12 is me

14:30:27 [Zakim]

+jeen; got it

14:30:34 [SimonR]

Just a second, I'll try toggling the auto-gain.

14:31:13 [Zakim]

+Orri_Erling

14:31:17 [SimonR]

Zakim, mute me

14:31:17 [Zakim]

Simon_Raboczi should now be muted

14:31:29 [SimonR]

Hmm, okay -- that noise isn't me.

14:31:40 [LeeF]

zakim, who's speaking?

14:31:50 [Zakim]

LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (48%), Orri_Erling (58%)

14:32:06 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:32:08 [Zakim]

-Orri_Erling

14:32:20 [SimonR]

Zakim, unmute me

14:32:20 [Zakim]

Simon_Raboczi should no longer be muted

14:33:03 [Zakim]

+Orri_Erling

14:33:21 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:33:32 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P13 is me

14:33:32 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:33:36 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:34:19 [AndyS]

EricP?

14:35:03 [SimonR]

Hey Pat, did you get email from me about the section 5 text?

14:36:04 [patH]

Hi Simon. I got something from Andy, just reading email now.

14:36:22 [SimonR]

(Sorry about that!)

14:36:43 [LeeF]

Pat, are you dialling in?

14:36:52 [patH]

Yes, Im on my way. 2 minutes.

14:37:07 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 0

14:37:07 [Zakim]

agendum 0. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]

14:37:12 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 1

14:37:12 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]

14:37:36 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:38:04 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe, please

14:38:04 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatH

14:38:19 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:38:19 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH

14:39:04 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:04 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling

14:39:05 [SimonR]

I'll preemptively volunteer for Feb 6, though.

14:39:11 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:11 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jeen

14:39:16 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:16 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF

14:39:20 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:20 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling

14:39:24 [LeeF]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:24 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simon_Raboczi

14:39:48 [LeeF]

Meet next: 30 Jan, PatH to scribe

14:40:12 [LeeF]

agenda + Bob MacGregor's reply

14:40:43 [LeeF]

Orri: Orri of OpenLink Software

14:40:54 [SimonR]

Orri's intro: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0037.html

14:41:05 [LeeF]

... background in AI and databases; made author of SQL and core functionality of Virtuoso database

14:41:19 [patH]

made/main?

14:41:28 [LeeF]

s/made/main

14:42:09 [LeeF]

Orri: sees RDF as the lingua franca for data integration on the Net and enterprise

14:42:29 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agenda 2

14:42:29 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF]

14:42:51 [LeeF]

ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS

14:42:52 [LeeF]

DONE

14:43:01 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball)

14:43:02 [LeeF]

DONE

14:43:18 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25

14:43:19 [LeeF]

DONE

14:43:45 [LeeF]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests

14:43:47 [LeeF]

CONTINNUE

14:43:56 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put

14:43:59 [LeeF]

CONTINUES

14:44:17 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 3

14:44:17 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Test suite - syntax tests" taken up [from LeeF]

14:44:43 [LeeF]

Jeen's messages -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0026.html

14:45:08 [jeen]

test suite reorg -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/

14:45:57 [LeeF]

LeeF: Ran the syntax tests -- failures were either from unknown functions or Unicode escape problems (\u)

14:46:07 [LeeF]

... eyeballed problem tests and were convinced that problems were with implementation and not tests

14:46:41 [LeeF]

Jeen: Similar for Sesame parser -- failing tests seemed to be OK tests but implementation problems

14:47:14 [LeeF]

... one issue I ran into was with the resolution relative URIs

14:47:20 [LeeF]

Scribe: LeeF

14:47:43 [LeeF]

... our parser does not have a functionality for dealing with queries from an embedded entity so it does not handle base URIs set from outside the query

14:48:17 [ericP]

eek!

14:48:23 [SimonR]

So, the test is *requiring* local IRI support to pass.

14:48:31 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html#iriRefs

14:48:47 [Zakim]

+ +33.9.52.56.aaaa

14:50:43 [LeeF]

ericP: could we change the tests to not test that particular issue [relative URI resolution]?

14:50:55 [SimonR]

Jeen: Including a BASE clause in the test would fix it.

14:50:57 [LeeF]

jeen: as far as I'm concerned, adding a base URI would fix it

14:51:07 [LeeF]

AndyS: queries already have a notion of a base as they're named by URI

14:52:18 [AndyS]

rel URI is part of the grammar as noted above

14:52:42 [LeeF]

AndyS: resoltuion of relative URIs *is* parse related

14:53:25 [ericP]

PROPOSAL: not test anything hard

14:53:36 [AndyS]

Opposed.

14:53:40 [LeeF]

SELECT ?s ?p ?o { ?s ?p ?o }

14:54:19 [jeen]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-general-01.rq

14:54:30 [LeeF]

jeen: what if we added a specific parser test for relative URIs, and did not use them (or used them with a BASE clause) in the rest of the syntax tests?

14:55:29 [patH]

Gicves DAWG a new meaning

14:56:28 [SimonR]

EricP, it's an issue of being able to set up a standard test environment, when part of the environment is the location you're testing in. O_o

14:56:56 [AndyS]

AndyS: the syntax-general* tests are about RDF termsand this is one feature for that.

14:57:17 [SimonR]

Just adding BASE clauses means the non-BASE codepath doesn't get tested... :/

14:58:42 [LeeF]

ericP: what if we have some queries whose only purpose is to test relative URIs with no BASE clause (and add BASEs to the rest) ?

14:58:56 [LeeF]

jeen: Perhaps these queries are actually designed to test this particular feature

14:59:00 [AndyS]

s/syntax-general/syntax-terms/g ???

15:00:25 [AndyS]

syntax-function-01.rq

15:00:34 [SimonR]

Leef: Inquires whether the "unknown function" situation is related to this issue?

15:00:34 [jeen]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-function-01.rq

15:01:46 [LeeF]

AndyS: No guarantee of any functions that exist

15:01:53 [LeeF]

ericP: We could make one up for tests and let people know that

15:02:11 [LeeF]

AndyS: I think that q:name - http://example.org/name - is the only one we use

15:02:56 [LeeF]

ericP: If we changed this to w3.org/.... we could put a resolvable document there

15:04:33 [LeeF]

AndyS: I'd like to have a test for zero arguments, one argument, two arguments, ...

15:04:40 [LeeF]

s/a test/a syntax test

15:07:04 [ericP]

echo concat | tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m

15:07:07 [ericP]

pbapng

15:07:28 [patH]

I have to leave for about 5 mins. Back soon.

15:09:15 [patH]

Back now.

15:10:21 [LeeF]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/bnodes-missing-pvalues-01.rq

15:11:09 [AndyS]

revision 1.1

15:11:10 [AndyS]

date: 2005/06/30

15:13:27 [AndyS]

ARQ passes 181 syntax tests.

15:13:35 [jeen]

zakim, mute me

15:13:35 [Zakim]

jeen should now be muted

15:14:09 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: To approve the syntax tests referenced by http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/manifest-syntax.ttl conditional on renaming all negative tests to include -bad-

15:14:48 [LeeF]

APPROVED

15:14:51 [LeeF]

RESOLVED

15:15:09 [ericP]

topic: #dawg Data Access Working Group weekly telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035

15:15:28 [LeeF]

ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved

15:15:47 [LeeF]

zakim, agenda?

15:15:47 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:

15:15:48 [Zakim]

1. Convene [from LeeF]

15:15:49 [Zakim]

2. Review ACTION Items [from LeeF]

15:15:50 [Zakim]

3. Test suite - syntax tests [from LeeF]

15:15:51 [Zakim]

4. Minimal test suite? [from LeeF]

15:15:52 [Zakim]

5. Syntax tests - classification? [from LeeF]

15:15:53 [Zakim]

6. rq25 status [from LeeF]

15:15:54 [Zakim]

7. Bob MacGregor's reply [from LeeF]

15:16:19 [SimonR]

No objection to skipping ahead to item 6.

15:16:23 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agenda 6

15:16:24 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]

15:16:28 [jeen]

zakim, unmute me

15:16:28 [Zakim]

jeen should no longer be muted

15:17:12 [SimonR]

LeeF: Souri, Orri and SteveH have agreed to do an early review of rq25 (~this week or next)

15:17:35 [SimonR]

LeeF: Simon and Kendall have agreed to do later reviews.

15:18:16 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/mid/20070123124424.GD5137@w3.org ericP's issues from rq25

15:18:26 [SimonR]

EricP: Has noted various things during an editor's pass over rq25

15:19:31 [ericP]

WHERE { _:who foaf:mboxMD5 "A2BA23432B434443D45DF655A6C6E6E";

15:19:34 [ericP]

foaf:nick ?nick

15:19:34 [ericP]

OPTIONAL { _:who foaf:mbox ?mbox } }

15:21:54 [LeeF]

ericP: I think that this query is confusing with _:who acting as a different blank node in two different BGPs

15:22:20 [LeeF]

AndyS: We need this for extension - for instance, sending BGP components off to a DL reasoner treating it as an existential

15:22:34 [LeeF]

AndyS: If it were a named variable, you'd be obliged to come back with a binding for it

15:23:31 [LeeF]

patH: I think that's an implementation issue -- if we specify that the blank node is the same, they'll need to keep track

15:24:18 [SimonR]

I think a better way to think of _:who is as a "blank variable" -- the only difference between it and a "named" variable is that we're obliged to project it away. (Not sure what the impact on cardinality is, off the top of my head.)

15:25:04 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:25:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH, +33.9.52.56.aaaa

15:25:43 [LeeF]

LeeF: Where do people lean on bnode scope?

15:26:02 [patH]

me too

15:26:50 [LeeF]

SimonR: look like blank nodes, but act like variables (this is what we worked through in November)

15:27:34 [LeeF]

jeen: +1 Simon. Would like to check how our implementation handles it.

15:28:40 [LeeF]

Orri: My initial reaction is that wherever something is referred to by a name it should be the same thing, but not familiar with counter arguments

15:28:53 [ericP]

zakim, +33.9.52.56.aaaa is ericP

15:28:53 [Zakim]

+ericP; got it

15:29:14 [LeeF]

AndyS: We can make it easier; need to respect that blank nodes are different than query variables - would suggest that it's illegal to use the same bnode label across graph patterns

15:29:23 [SimonR]

AndyS: Suggests making it illegal to reuse bnode labels between BGPs.

15:30:11 [SimonR]

PatH: Thinks the bnode ID scope ought to be the "document" boundary. In fact, thinks that scope should be across BGPs.

15:30:12 [LeeF]

patH: i think the scope of the bnode IDs should be the "document" -- i think it violates RDF design to have bnode id scope smaller than document boundary -- implies that bnode id scope cross BGPs

15:31:05 [LeeF]

ericP: Initial thought is that the example in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 is a conundrum query

15:32:10 [LeeF]

... andy's suggestion would work - would further differentiate blank nodes, reserving some space for DL folks to work with them

15:32:27 [SimonR]

I think it'd be helpful to rename them as "bvars" to avoid confusion.

15:32:32 [LeeF]

... leaning towards they're just variables

15:32:44 [ericP]

+1

15:33:11 [SimonR]

Proposed and tacitly approved to go into extra time.

15:34:28 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope

15:37:35 [patH]

suggest distinguish two issues: DL folk insist (correctly) that bnodes are not the same as unnamed variables (issue 1); but the scope of bnodes across parts of a query seems klike a different issue.

15:37:43 [patH]

klike/like

15:37:44 [SimonR]

LeeF: Thinks consensus seems to be forming around treating bnode IDs as scoped to the query. Would like Kendall's thoughts particularly for DL input.

15:38:06 [SimonR]

LeeF: Will definitely put this on next week's agenda.

15:39:11 [SimonR]

AndyS: Worried about reopening a previous decision that BGPs were the unit of entailment.

15:39:13 [LeeF]

AndyS: Changing this would undo the principle of the LC1 decision to make the BGP the extension point

15:42:21 [LeeF]

ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query

15:44:20 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041

15:44:38 [ericP]

7 Matching Alternatives

15:44:38 [ericP]

Query results involving a pattern containing GP1 and GP2 will

15:44:38 [ericP]

include separate solutions for each match where GP1 and GP2 give

15:44:38 [ericP]

rise to *different* sets of bindings.

15:45:30 [LeeF]

AndyS: The algebra says that SELECT * { {?s ?p ?o } UNION {?s ?p ?o}} will hae duplicate solutions

15:46:21 [LeeF]

zakim, take up agendum 7

15:46:21 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "Bob MacGregor's reply" taken up [from LeeF]

15:46:47 [LeeF]

AndyS: His examples will change when the algebra come along - what should we do about that?

15:47:10 [AndyS]

{ FILTER(?x) } will be a change

15:48:57 [LeeF]

ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra

15:50:01 [SimonR]

Adjourned at 15:50 Z.

15:50:03 [Zakim]

-Orri_Erling

15:50:09 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:50:26 [Zakim]

-Simon_Raboczi

15:50:53 [AndyS]

The modified test names work for me.

15:51:53 [LeeF]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:51:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-minutes.html LeeF

15:51:58 [LeeF]

rrsagent, makes logs world-access

15:51:58 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs world-access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:52:08 [LeeF]

rrsagent, make logs world access

15:52:08 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:52:20 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/att-0034/scanTests_syntax-sparql_1_2_3__grammar:2007-01-09

15:59:37 [LeeF]

rrsagent, make logs world-access

16:02:45 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2007/01/16-dawg-minutes

16:02:53 [Zakim]

-jeen

16:06:52 [Zakim]

-ericP

16:06:53 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:06:59 [LeeF]

rrsagent, please leave

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-actions.rdf :

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS [1]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-42-51

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) [2]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-01

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25 [3]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-18

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [4]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-45

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [5]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-56

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved [6]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-15-28

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope [7]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-34-28

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query [8]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-42-21

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra [9]

16:06:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-48-57