IRC log of dawg on 2007-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:26:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:26:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc
14:26:39 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:26:40 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:26:49 [LeeF]
Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly
14:26:57 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:27:01 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035.html
14:27:17 [LeeF]
Regrets: EliasT, Souri, iv_an_ru_
14:27:33 [LeeF]
agenda + Convene
14:27:40 [LeeF]
agenda + Review ACTION Items
14:27:46 [LeeF]
agenda + Test suite - syntax tests
14:27:55 [LeeF]
agenda + Minimal test suite?
14:28:02 [LeeF]
agenda + Syntax tests - classification?
14:28:07 [LeeF]
agenda + rq25 status
14:28:16 [jeen]
jeen has joined #dawg
14:28:17 [AndyS]
zakim, code?
14:28:17 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndyS
14:28:40 [AndyS]
Exactly!
14:28:45 [LeeF]
:-)
14:28:56 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:29:03 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:29:08 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P9 is me
14:29:08 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:29:09 [Zakim]
+LeeF
14:29:11 [Zakim]
-AndyS
14:29:13 [Zakim]
+AndyS
14:29:35 [Zakim]
+Simon_Raboczi
14:30:20 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:30:27 [jeen]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
14:30:27 [Zakim]
+jeen; got it
14:30:34 [SimonR]
Just a second, I'll try toggling the auto-gain.
14:31:13 [Zakim]
+Orri_Erling
14:31:17 [SimonR]
Zakim, mute me
14:31:17 [Zakim]
Simon_Raboczi should now be muted
14:31:29 [SimonR]
Hmm, okay -- that noise isn't me.
14:31:40 [LeeF]
zakim, who's speaking?
14:31:50 [Zakim]
LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (48%), Orri_Erling (58%)
14:32:06 [Zakim]
-AndyS
14:32:08 [Zakim]
-Orri_Erling
14:32:20 [SimonR]
Zakim, unmute me
14:32:20 [Zakim]
Simon_Raboczi should no longer be muted
14:33:03 [Zakim]
+Orri_Erling
14:33:21 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:33:32 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P13 is me
14:33:32 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:33:36 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:34:19 [AndyS]
EricP?
14:35:03 [SimonR]
Hey Pat, did you get email from me about the section 5 text?
14:36:04 [patH]
Hi Simon. I got something from Andy, just reading email now.
14:36:22 [SimonR]
(Sorry about that!)
14:36:43 [LeeF]
Pat, are you dialling in?
14:36:52 [patH]
Yes, Im on my way. 2 minutes.
14:37:07 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 0
14:37:07 [Zakim]
agendum 0. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]
14:37:12 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:37:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:37:36 [Zakim]
+PatH
14:38:04 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe, please
14:38:04 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatH
14:38:19 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:38:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH
14:39:04 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:04 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling
14:39:05 [SimonR]
I'll preemptively volunteer for Feb 6, though.
14:39:11 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:11 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jeen
14:39:16 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:16 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF
14:39:20 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:20 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Orri_Erling
14:39:24 [LeeF]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:24 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simon_Raboczi
14:39:48 [LeeF]
Meet next: 30 Jan, PatH to scribe
14:40:12 [LeeF]
agenda + Bob MacGregor's reply
14:40:43 [LeeF]
Orri: Orri of OpenLink Software
14:40:54 [SimonR]
Orri's intro: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0037.html
14:41:05 [LeeF]
... background in AI and databases; made author of SQL and core functionality of Virtuoso database
14:41:19 [patH]
made/main?
14:41:28 [LeeF]
s/made/main
14:42:09 [LeeF]
Orri: sees RDF as the lingua franca for data integration on the Net and enterprise
14:42:29 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agenda 2
14:42:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:42:51 [LeeF]
ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS
14:42:52 [LeeF]
DONE
14:43:01 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball)
14:43:02 [LeeF]
DONE
14:43:18 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25
14:43:19 [LeeF]
DONE
14:43:45 [LeeF]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests
14:43:47 [LeeF]
CONTINNUE
14:43:56 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put
14:43:59 [LeeF]
CONTINUES
14:44:17 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:44:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test suite - syntax tests" taken up [from LeeF]
14:44:43 [LeeF]
Jeen's messages -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0026.html
14:45:08 [jeen]
test suite reorg -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/
14:45:57 [LeeF]
LeeF: Ran the syntax tests -- failures were either from unknown functions or Unicode escape problems (\u)
14:46:07 [LeeF]
... eyeballed problem tests and were convinced that problems were with implementation and not tests
14:46:41 [LeeF]
Jeen: Similar for Sesame parser -- failing tests seemed to be OK tests but implementation problems
14:47:14 [LeeF]
... one issue I ran into was with the resolution relative URIs
14:47:20 [LeeF]
Scribe: LeeF
14:47:43 [LeeF]
... our parser does not have a functionality for dealing with queries from an embedded entity so it does not handle base URIs set from outside the query
14:48:17 [ericP]
eek!
14:48:23 [SimonR]
So, the test is *requiring* local IRI support to pass.
14:48:31 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html#iriRefs
14:48:47 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.52.56.aaaa
14:50:43 [LeeF]
ericP: could we change the tests to not test that particular issue [relative URI resolution]?
14:50:55 [SimonR]
Jeen: Including a BASE clause in the test would fix it.
14:50:57 [LeeF]
jeen: as far as I'm concerned, adding a base URI would fix it
14:51:07 [LeeF]
AndyS: queries already have a notion of a base as they're named by URI
14:52:18 [AndyS]
rel URI is part of the grammar as noted above
14:52:42 [LeeF]
AndyS: resoltuion of relative URIs *is* parse related
14:53:25 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: not test anything hard
14:53:36 [AndyS]
Opposed.
14:53:40 [LeeF]
SELECT ?s ?p ?o { ?s ?p ?o }
14:54:19 [jeen]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-general-01.rq
14:54:30 [LeeF]
jeen: what if we added a specific parser test for relative URIs, and did not use them (or used them with a BASE clause) in the rest of the syntax tests?
14:55:29 [patH]
Gicves DAWG a new meaning
14:56:28 [SimonR]
EricP, it's an issue of being able to set up a standard test environment, when part of the environment is the location you're testing in. O_o
14:56:56 [AndyS]
AndyS: the syntax-general* tests are about RDF termsand this is one feature for that.
14:57:17 [SimonR]
Just adding BASE clauses means the non-BASE codepath doesn't get tested... :/
14:58:42 [LeeF]
ericP: what if we have some queries whose only purpose is to test relative URIs with no BASE clause (and add BASEs to the rest) ?
14:58:56 [LeeF]
jeen: Perhaps these queries are actually designed to test this particular feature
14:59:00 [AndyS]
s/syntax-general/syntax-terms/g ???
15:00:25 [AndyS]
syntax-function-01.rq
15:00:34 [SimonR]
Leef: Inquires whether the "unknown function" situation is related to this issue?
15:00:34 [jeen]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql2/syntax-function-01.rq
15:01:46 [LeeF]
AndyS: No guarantee of any functions that exist
15:01:53 [LeeF]
ericP: We could make one up for tests and let people know that
15:02:11 [LeeF]
AndyS: I think that q:name - http://example.org/name - is the only one we use
15:02:56 [LeeF]
ericP: If we changed this to w3.org/.... we could put a resolvable document there
15:04:33 [LeeF]
AndyS: I'd like to have a test for zero arguments, one argument, two arguments, ...
15:04:40 [LeeF]
s/a test/a syntax test
15:07:04 [ericP]
echo concat | tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m
15:07:07 [ericP]
pbapng
15:07:28 [patH]
I have to leave for about 5 mins. Back soon.
15:09:15 [patH]
Back now.
15:10:21 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql3/bnodes-missing-pvalues-01.rq
15:11:09 [AndyS]
revision 1.1
15:11:10 [AndyS]
date: 2005/06/30
15:13:27 [AndyS]
ARQ passes 181 syntax tests.
15:13:35 [jeen]
zakim, mute me
15:13:35 [Zakim]
jeen should now be muted
15:14:09 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: To approve the syntax tests referenced by http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/manifest-syntax.ttl conditional on renaming all negative tests to include -bad-
15:14:48 [LeeF]
APPROVED
15:14:51 [LeeF]
RESOLVED
15:15:09 [ericP]
topic: #dawg Data Access Working Group weekly telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0035
15:15:28 [LeeF]
ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved
15:15:47 [LeeF]
zakim, agenda?
15:15:47 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:15:48 [Zakim]
1. Convene [from LeeF]
15:15:49 [Zakim]
2. Review ACTION Items [from LeeF]
15:15:50 [Zakim]
3. Test suite - syntax tests [from LeeF]
15:15:51 [Zakim]
4. Minimal test suite? [from LeeF]
15:15:52 [Zakim]
5. Syntax tests - classification? [from LeeF]
15:15:53 [Zakim]
6. rq25 status [from LeeF]
15:15:54 [Zakim]
7. Bob MacGregor's reply [from LeeF]
15:16:19 [SimonR]
No objection to skipping ahead to item 6.
15:16:23 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agenda 6
15:16:24 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]
15:16:28 [jeen]
zakim, unmute me
15:16:28 [Zakim]
jeen should no longer be muted
15:17:12 [SimonR]
LeeF: Souri, Orri and SteveH have agreed to do an early review of rq25 (~this week or next)
15:17:35 [SimonR]
LeeF: Simon and Kendall have agreed to do later reviews.
15:18:16 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/20070123124424.GD5137@w3.org ericP's issues from rq25
15:18:26 [SimonR]
EricP: Has noted various things during an editor's pass over rq25
15:19:31 [ericP]
WHERE { _:who foaf:mboxMD5 "A2BA23432B434443D45DF655A6C6E6E";
15:19:34 [ericP]
foaf:nick ?nick
15:19:34 [ericP]
OPTIONAL { _:who foaf:mbox ?mbox } }
15:21:54 [LeeF]
ericP: I think that this query is confusing with _:who acting as a different blank node in two different BGPs
15:22:20 [LeeF]
AndyS: We need this for extension - for instance, sending BGP components off to a DL reasoner treating it as an existential
15:22:34 [LeeF]
AndyS: If it were a named variable, you'd be obliged to come back with a binding for it
15:23:31 [LeeF]
patH: I think that's an implementation issue -- if we specify that the blank node is the same, they'll need to keep track
15:24:18 [SimonR]
I think a better way to think of _:who is as a "blank variable" -- the only difference between it and a "named" variable is that we're obliged to project it away. (Not sure what the impact on cardinality is, off the top of my head.)
15:25:04 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:25:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, Simon_Raboczi, jeen, Orri_Erling, AndyS, PatH, +33.9.52.56.aaaa
15:25:43 [LeeF]
LeeF: Where do people lean on bnode scope?
15:26:02 [patH]
me too
15:26:50 [LeeF]
SimonR: look like blank nodes, but act like variables (this is what we worked through in November)
15:27:34 [LeeF]
jeen: +1 Simon. Would like to check how our implementation handles it.
15:28:40 [LeeF]
Orri: My initial reaction is that wherever something is referred to by a name it should be the same thing, but not familiar with counter arguments
15:28:53 [ericP]
zakim, +33.9.52.56.aaaa is ericP
15:28:53 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
15:29:14 [LeeF]
AndyS: We can make it easier; need to respect that blank nodes are different than query variables - would suggest that it's illegal to use the same bnode label across graph patterns
15:29:23 [SimonR]
AndyS: Suggests making it illegal to reuse bnode labels between BGPs.
15:30:11 [SimonR]
PatH: Thinks the bnode ID scope ought to be the "document" boundary. In fact, thinks that scope should be across BGPs.
15:30:12 [LeeF]
patH: i think the scope of the bnode IDs should be the "document" -- i think it violates RDF design to have bnode id scope smaller than document boundary -- implies that bnode id scope cross BGPs
15:31:05 [LeeF]
ericP: Initial thought is that the example in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 is a conundrum query
15:32:10 [LeeF]
... andy's suggestion would work - would further differentiate blank nodes, reserving some space for DL folks to work with them
15:32:27 [SimonR]
I think it'd be helpful to rename them as "bvars" to avoid confusion.
15:32:32 [LeeF]
... leaning towards they're just variables
15:32:44 [ericP]
+1
15:33:11 [SimonR]
Proposed and tacitly approved to go into extra time.
15:34:28 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope
15:37:35 [patH]
suggest distinguish two issues: DL folk insist (correctly) that bnodes are not the same as unnamed variables (issue 1); but the scope of bnodes across parts of a query seems klike a different issue.
15:37:43 [patH]
klike/like
15:37:44 [SimonR]
LeeF: Thinks consensus seems to be forming around treating bnode IDs as scoped to the query. Would like Kendall's thoughts particularly for DL input.
15:38:06 [SimonR]
LeeF: Will definitely put this on next week's agenda.
15:39:11 [SimonR]
AndyS: Worried about reopening a previous decision that BGPs were the unit of entailment.
15:39:13 [LeeF]
AndyS: Changing this would undo the principle of the LC1 decision to make the BGP the extension point
15:42:21 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query
15:44:20 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041
15:44:38 [ericP]
7 Matching Alternatives
15:44:38 [ericP]
Query results involving a pattern containing GP1 and GP2 will
15:44:38 [ericP]
include separate solutions for each match where GP1 and GP2 give
15:44:38 [ericP]
rise to *different* sets of bindings.
15:45:30 [LeeF]
AndyS: The algebra says that SELECT * { {?s ?p ?o } UNION {?s ?p ?o}} will hae duplicate solutions
15:46:21 [LeeF]
zakim, take up agendum 7
15:46:21 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Bob MacGregor's reply" taken up [from LeeF]
15:46:47 [LeeF]
AndyS: His examples will change when the algebra come along - what should we do about that?
15:47:10 [AndyS]
{ FILTER(?x) } will be a change
15:48:57 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra
15:50:01 [SimonR]
Adjourned at 15:50 Z.
15:50:03 [Zakim]
-Orri_Erling
15:50:09 [Zakim]
-PatH
15:50:26 [Zakim]
-Simon_Raboczi
15:50:53 [AndyS]
The modified test names work for me.
15:51:53 [LeeF]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:51:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-minutes.html LeeF
15:51:58 [LeeF]
rrsagent, makes logs world-access
15:51:58 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs world-access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:52:08 [LeeF]
rrsagent, make logs world access
15:52:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world access', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:52:20 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/att-0034/scanTests_syntax-sparql_1_2_3__grammar:2007-01-09
15:59:37 [LeeF]
rrsagent, make logs world-access
16:02:45 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/16-dawg-minutes
16:02:53 [Zakim]
-jeen
16:06:52 [Zakim]
-ericP
16:06:53 [Zakim]
-LeeF
16:06:59 [LeeF]
rrsagent, please leave
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-actions.rdf :
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeen to do further cosmetic rearranging of SyntaxDev tests and then commit them to CVS [1]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-42-51
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) [2]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-01
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to seek early and later reviewers of rq25 [3]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-18
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [4]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-45
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [5]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T14-43-56
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeen to mark approved tests as dawg:approved [6]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-15-28
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to look back through minutes and mailing list to determine if the group has made a past decision on blank node scope [7]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-34-28
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0041 mentioning the possibility of banning the same bnode id from appearing in multiple BGPs in a query [8]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-42-21
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to reply to Bob M noting changes in examples in curent algebra [9]
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-dawg-irc#T15-48-57