<shadi> scribe: eoscribe

<shadi> scribenick: eoscribe

Requirements for Promoting & Advocating Web Accessibility

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-promote.html

Judy: (walks through the requirements document)
... the draft document doesn't address all of these audiences

Shadi: Its a very broad audience

Helle: Could you describe disability advocate?

Andrew: within the university we have disability groups who advocate on behalf of the student

Helle: to us they are more like practical assistance, consultancy, this person needs a screenreader

Judy: Like in the UK there is the RNIB....those are disability advocates

Helle: disability advocate may have a negative connotation

Judy: I started with promoting... i changed it to promoting and advocating because I thought advocating was important

Jack: Whats the distinction between policy developers and policy makers?

Judy: Not Sure

Wayne: I thought we were going to delete the secondary audience.

<judy> ACTION: jb, dig up edits to requirements document and update them into online requ doc for PAWA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Andrew: the audiences seem pretty specific and then it includes full range of roles

Judy: the primary and secondary audiences needs to be reviewed

<judy> ACTION: comment, PAWA requirements: after adding existing edits, review & neaten up the primary and secondary audience sections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Helle: There are disability advocates but there are also people who want to advocate who don't know as much about it.

Henny: Is this someone who has a complaint about accessibility? Is this someone who's coming from the business case point of view?

Judy: Its good to take a short time at the requirements, then go to the document, then go back to the requirements.
... (reviews approach)
... We wrote some personas for the document

Helle: Should there be a correlation between the audience and the personas

Judy: I had a good scenario but its not captured in these scenarios....person uses web site and runs into web accessibility problems and wants to contact an organization...person who is an accessibility advocate and wants to contact an organization.... person from within an organization who has a disability

Document - Promoting & Advocating Web Accessibility

url - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/promote/wd-promoting-20070115.php

Alan: The first sentence repeats the title.

Jack: Difference between promoting and advocating?

Alan: advocating would be arguing in favor of

Henny: Advocating may be for something that has not have already been done... promoting is for something that has already been done

Andrew: Advocate is "i must have"
... Promoter is "this would be good to have"

Jack: Keep the two audiences reflected throughout the document

<Andrew> Andrew: a useful discussion of advocacy is at http://www.qppd.org/About/advocacy.htm

Judy: We need to figure out what we want in the document
... there may be a different document that comes from this or multiple documents

<Andrew> Andrew: Blind Citizens Australia has prepared "Information Access Advocacy Guidelines: Eight Steps to Web Accessibility" - http://www.bca.org.au/Steps_to_Web_Accessibility.htm

<judy> ACTION: comment, PAWA, re-title the document after we figure out what this document is, and what we want it to be, but a title that is more directly descriptive (e.g how to respond to an inaccessible web site) or some such [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action03]

<Jack> Andrew - nice link. I like that it is 'down-to-earth' and very practical

Andrew: within the intro... it seems like i don't know if you are internal or external, do you have a disability or do you represent someone with a disability

<Alan> ACTION: comment, PAWA, make it clear in Introduction what roles document will address, for instance is the person internal or external to organisation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<Alan> ACTION: comment, (continuation of previous...) and whether they have a disability or not. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shadi: Is legal advocacy going to be dealt with in this document?

Judy: its mentioned slightly...is that to scary for some people? Seems like a lot of times we muzzle ourselves from an advocacy point of view
... lawsuits have come from inaccessible web sites
... We are going to have a lot of time dealing with terminology

Wayne: Its clear that different people are using the words different ways

<Alan> ACTION: comment, PAWA document, in Introduction figure out what we mean by legal advocacy, and whether or not to include that. Monitor meaning of such words. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Jack: "if organization has legal or regulatory obligations"...all organizations have legal obligations... what obligations do they have?

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa doc: instead of saying "whether legal obligations apply" say "in what context legal obligations apply?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action07]

Wayne: It doesn't seem to speak to the audience. People are frustrated. How do you calm down and be effective. What techniques do you need?

Justin: Do we want to narrow our audience?

Wayne: We could make it larger.

Alan: The audience could be the disabled user. Others could be more peripheral.

Helle: This seems like a very narrow audience. It seems like it was also for people that were doing promoting. We have a disability representatives who go forward to local community or government. They may not know about web accessibility.

Andrew: Trying to get those two people into one document is quite difficult.

Judy: may need different documents.... promoting, marketing, and how let people know its important... how to deal with an individual experience

Helle: There are a lot of people within the disability communities who have trouble with our documents. They could be a new audience

Sylvie: I don't understand the audience.

Wayne: Could we have a parallel list? We could have three or four parallel personas.

Judy: We could address some different scenarios
... In the intro

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa doc intro: once we establish a clearer focus and audience, check the tone & voice of the language throughout, to ensure we're clearing speaking to that/those audience(s) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action08]

Judy: Next section -- selecting an approach

Henny: The audience is getting confused and changing

Judy: What do we want to do with the document?

Shadi: People with disabilities or people who are advocates but little experience with technology... giving those audience techie words.... letting them know what to say

Wayne: Seems like we need two documents

Judy: Seems like we need 5
... seems like we need a resource suite
... We can create a really long document

Andrew: You would lose the audiences. It would be better to address one persons needs

Judy: We need to pick a priority piece or do a suite
... How about we do a general promotion piece?

Justin: What does that include?

Jack: Who are we promoting to?

Helle: i think disability advocates feel left out... techy people take over. We could have that letter template for raising awareness.
... I think the users are such an important audience

Judy: for a promotions document, we could highlight strategies for how to get it into the public view

Wayne: If we put it in there we want to make sure people can find it and not wind up in TR documents

Jack: In the intro maybe we want to talk about general things.... then change the document to say.. "what do you do when... "
... when i have a problem what do i do
... the intro describes "what do you do when" and explains and focuses what you do when you have a particular problem

<judy> [jb self-notes: general intro, then what to do w/ this specific problme, then some examples of what to say/do & what not to assume, etc]

Judy: Do we want to keep the focus of this document on what to do when you find an inaccessible web site

<Alan> ACTION: COMMENT, PAWA / Selecting Approach; Change the heading to "Factors in Selecting an Approach. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Justin: In selecting an approach, we only give questions... we should give some action... hand holding

<Alan> ACTION: COMMENT, PAWA / Selecting Approach; Suggest what people can do rather than asking so many questions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action10]

<Alan> ACTION: COMMENT, PAWA / Selecting Approach; Propose what to do in a logical order. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action11]

Jack: I like how Andrew's example was also procedural. it gave me numbered steps

Shadi: We shouldn't advocate people sending complaints when the problem is in their user agents

<Alan> ACTION: COMMENT (continuation of previous...), example document http://www.bca.org.au/Steps_to_Web_Accessibility.htm [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action12]

Shadi: If we can have the person show that it does work in a place, it helps to make your case to the web site because it shows where a place is accessible

Helle: sometimes there is a problem that people haven't set up their At propoerly, and where does that responsibility lie? Sometimes groups do not want individuals to complian indivdually as they be even be complaining about the wrong thing

Andrew: somtimes it might be a technology issue for thw organisation, like a CMS that can implement certain accessibility features

Shadi: one approach - describe the functinal problem; alternative (if the person is capable) is to describe the technical problem

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting: first paragraph should be about the user, and explain that they don't have to be an expert. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action13]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting: give people options -- if less technical, help them to describe the problem that they are encountering; if more technical, describe in more detail & more structure/refinement. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action14]

Judy: maybe sample messages for difefrent groups?

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting: add three different sample messages: one simple description, second w/ some specifics, third has lots of detail, comparison etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action15]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting -- separate how severe and how widespread [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action16]

Wayne: on the extent of the barriers, may need to explain further, eg a single issues can prevent interaction; on another site a number of small issues may make te sithe unusable

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting -- move "how severe and how widespread" to the "explaining" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action17]

jack: maybe, while mentioning the law, we shuld encourage dialogue

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting -- re-examine some of this content for possible moving to "explaining" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action18]

<Jack> Jack: Should 'benefits' be included in the last sentence? For example - . . .they aware of the commercial, social relevance, and benefits. . .

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting: tell people to look for contact info on home page, or "about us" or "contact us" or search for "contact" or look at bottom of page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action19]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting: tell people, if they work w/in an organization, what kinds of departments to look in for the people responsible for the site, and for people to advocate w/ you [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action20]

Judy: Look at "Documentation: section

Justin: give examples of documenting the problem

Judy: maybe here we give the guidenace, but preface with "you don't have to be an expert"

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting: suggest a series of simple steps to document the problem, but preface it with a "you don't have to this" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action21]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting -- have this section be "how to frame the problem I'm having" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action22]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, selecting -- have this section be "how to frame the problem I'm having", and the "documenting" section be "how to describe more about the problem I'm having" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action23]

Wayne: strted with how to frame what is bothering you; now how to document the issue

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting, communication -- add "this can be helpful in following up in a formal complaint later if needed" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action24]

Wayne: documentation section - keeping a trainl may be useful if you need to make a formal complaint at any stage

<judy> [jb notes: i'm having a pb doing such and such (and i'm using a screen reader) so, where on the site, which form, and trying to do what; id your assistive technology, your browser, your OS (adv: add version); my sw works fine on other sites

Shadi: at a min your be able to provide a description of the problem and where it occured
... and optionally provide A, B, C, etc if you can to assist the people who have to address/repair your problem

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting, barriers: explain the pb you were having (and where, give URI if you can and if relevant; and then in addition, any info that you can provide from the following list: platform/version, browser/version, AT/version, screen shot, a comparison to being able to do a given function on a different site; [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action25]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting, barriers: (continued from previous comment) and also if you can identify the wcag checkpoint you're breaking, and point to a technique to fix it, great! [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action26]

judy: looking at "contacting organisations" section

Andrew: what about "feedback" form - sometimes this is the only contact means provided
... drawback is no means of tracking correspondance

Justin: add a few sample lines (in lay terms) from the business case (and point to the business case for more)

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting, explaining: as part of the explaining section, give people the flavor of some potential talking points, then point them off to the business case for more detail [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action27]

Justin: this should be support for a face-to-face meeting

Shadi: is the inlcusion of a f2f option scope creep?

Wayne: ok if don't emphasise it too much

Henny: emphasise that it is probably rare

Shadi: talking points should be definitely optional extra

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, contact -- pay careful attention to the "f2f" option in the next draft, to try to make this part either make more sense, or remove it; and perhaps broaden it to include "developing contacts" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action28]

Judy: we seems to be talking ab out v.large orgs or small orgs - here are also medium size orgs that are approachable and interested in the problem and the person

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, contact -- pay careful attention to the "f2f" option in the next draft, to try to make this part either make more sense, or remove it; and perhaps broaden it to include "developing contacts" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action29]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, contact -- look for an opportunity to comment about potentially different strategies for contacting different size organizations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action30]

Shadi: change section to "considerations for dialogue"??

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, contact -- retitle section to "consideration for dialog with different kinds of organizations?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action31]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, documenting: the doc/communicating section needs to go w/ "contacting" and the doc/barriers section needs to go w/ "explaining" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action32]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- move the reasons from the intro section to the intro to explaining section (look at shawn's book) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action33]

judy: lets look at "wxplaining problems" section

Andrew: 'core techniques' sits oddly here, too specific

Judy: intro sentence - awarness - how would you knoe (see action 33)

justin: good to add resources - but maybe these are for follow-up contact

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- try breaking out resource links like in the wai update format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action34]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- be careful about selection and placement of more technical resources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action35]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- instead of "basics", try "how much background to give on web accessibility" and in that, say something like "if it looks like they have no idea abt web accessibility, go see intro" or better yet: "if you want more info on web access, go see ..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action36]

Wayne: should we keep it simple - just describe the problem you encounter

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- instead of "basics", try "how much background to give on web accessibility" and in that, say something like "if it looks like they have no idea abt web accessibility, go see intro" or better yet: "if you want more info on web access, go see ..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action37]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- (continued) but *do* offer more resources, as needed, in follow-up email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action38]

Judy: how can we point people to te wai resources, even as part of an advocacy complaint process

Jack: keep specifics, add a "promo" section to follow

Shadi: we aslo need a document for developers & site owners - i've had a complaint, what do I do?

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa -- add to wishlist -- a document telling a web developer what to do when they get a complaint [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action39]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining -- if you do add info on web accessibility into your first message, put it after the specific problem(s) that you are having, and don't let it drown out your specific problem. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action40]

Andrew: re 'specifics' - still be careful not to confuse the message that they have a problem

Shawn: is this 'you have a problem' or awareness about accessibility?

Helle: para 2 dilute the message in para one

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining, specifics -- consider either removing it, or if very clearly marked as only potential info to add if appropriate in follow-up communication (strongly qualified) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action41]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, explaining, specifics -- change to "you may want to mention if you want to hear back from them" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action42]

Judy: look at "following up" section

Andrew: consider a 'thankyou' to reinforce the action if you got a good outcome

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, following up -- try adding something like suggesting that thanks are sometimes helpful... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action43]

Shadi: consider moving all subsequent contacts to this section

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, following up -- clarify the second paragraph, no one can understand it! [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action44]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, following up -- also use phrase "consider filing a formal complaint" and "consider contacting disability organizations".... perhaps consider something like "consider stepping up the formality of your complaint".... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action45]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, following up -- add a final point along the lines of "and then tell people about what you did, and what happened" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action46]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, introduction -- completely rewrite the intro, including unburing the strategy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action47]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, following up -- also consider adding telling people at that point. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action48]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, intro -- also introduce the (optional) concept of "starting a dialog" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action49]

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, intro -- try to break out last bit into a list or two [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action50]

Judy: any ideas for graphics?

Alan: a process diagram?

Judy: frowning then smiling user

Alan: a few success stories (as a sidebar?)

Wayne: adding a case study at the end

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, graphics -- consider frustrated user, then happy user, smiling/frowny face, [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action51]

Henny: a few testimonial quotes dotted through the document. eg "i wasn't sure I'd be listened to, but they fixed it"

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, sidebars -- success stories, testimonials from satisfied users (i dind't think i would make a diff but, quotes from web devs" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action52]

Alan: and from nthe site owner/developer "finally someone told us what actually didn't work, so we could target our efforts"

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, sidebars -- success stories, testimonials from satisfied users (i dind't think i would make a diff but, quotes from web devs" -- and bad/good examples [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action53]

Judy: let's reconsider the title

<judy> jack: addressing problems on web sites

<judy> alan: look at what consumer organizations call their docs

<judy> alan: having problems acesssing a web site? there are things you can do

<judy> wayne: frustrated with a web site?...

<judy> henny: addressing problems on web sites you use

<judy> judy: getting web sites to change: you can affect them

<judy> alan: think you can't get them to fix their web site? here are some strategies to try

<judy> sylvie: participating in web site improvement

<judy> shadi: complaining about inaccessible web sites

<judy> wayne, shadi, judy: constructive complaints: getting web sites to change

<judy> henny: influencing change on the web sites that you use

<Jack> Jack: How to complain about a web site and work to get it fixed

<judy> andrew: no warranty: complaining about web sites

<judy> ACTION: comment, pawa, wishlist: develop a parallel document on how to complain about pbs w/ auth tools, ... and user agents... etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html#action54]

Judy: thanks all for working on this today after the agenda flip last night

Transitioning document

Shawn: some mionor changes highlighted in "Transitioning Web Sites from WCAG 1.0 to WCAG 2.0"
... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/transition1to2/transition1to2
... Intro tidied up
... questions for review - will email, but outlined briefly

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Found Scribe: eoscribe
Found ScribeNick: eoscribe
Present: Henny Judy Sylvie Wayne Jack Shadi Helle Alan Justin Andrew Shawn_(after_lunch) Harvey Harvey(afternoon) (afternoon)
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2007/01f2f
Got date from IRC log name: 22 Jan 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: -- add an approach attention background basics be careful change comment contact content dig edits explaining for give have help how if instead intro jb less look move moving much of opportunity options pawa pay people possible propose re-examine retitle section selecting severe some specifics technical tell them this try up what widespread

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