16:02:06 RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg 16:02:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/10-grddl-wg-irc 16:02:07 now.. 16:02:21 DanC has changed the topic to: GRDDL WG 10 Jan http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda 16:02:27 +DanC 16:03:20 +Murray_Maloney 16:03:23 Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda 16:03:24 working on it, DanC 16:03:25 agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-01-10T11:00-0500 16:03:26 agendum 1 added 16:03:32 agenda+ Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents 16:03:34 agendum 2 added 16:03:36 agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML 16:03:38 agendum 3 added 16:03:40 agenda+ GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML 16:03:42 agendum 4 added 16:03:48 agenda+ Cross-document Introduction 16:03:50 agendum 5 added 16:03:54 agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns] 16:03:56 agendum 6 added 16:04:00 agenda+ [#issue-base-param] 16:04:04 agendum 7 added 16:04:10 agenda+ Primer Document 16:04:12 agendum 8 added 16:04:14 agenda+ GRDDL Spec: General issues 16:04:16 agendum 9 added 16:04:18 agenda+ [#issue-html-nsdoc] 16:04:20 agendum 10 added 16:04:22 agenda+ [#issue-tx-element] 16:04:24 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 16:04:26 agendum 11 added 16:04:28 agenda+ [#issue-conformance-labels] 16:04:28 Zakim, take up item 1 16:04:30 agendum 12 added 16:04:34 agenda+ [#issue-http-header-links] 16:04:40 agendum 13 added 16:04:42 done reading agenda, DanC 16:04:44 +??P13 16:04:53 Zakim, take up item 1 16:04:56 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-01-10T11:00-0500" taken up 16:05:01 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:05:23 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-01-10T11:00-0500" taken up 16:05:23 whats that noise? 16:05:29 On the phone I see Ben_Adida, +1.703.861.aabb, DanC, Murray_Maloney, ??P13 16:05:30 Zakim, who's making noise? 16:05:41 +Chimezie_Ogbuji 16:05:55 Zakim, aabb is RonR 16:06:06 DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_Adida (5%), +1.703.861.aabb (46%), ??P13 (16%), Chimezie_Ogbuji (20%), DanC (13%) 16:06:36 +RonR; got it 16:07:05 chair: HarryH 16:07:13 scribe: BenA 16:07:20 PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly -- 20 Dec 2006 as a true record 16:07:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/att-0072/GRDDL_Weekly_--_20_Dec_2006.html 16:07:51 ScribeNick: benadida 16:08:10 consensus on minutes... approved 16:08:24 ack ronr 16:09:11 Zakim, P13 is Murray 16:09:11 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'P13' 16:09:16 Zakim, ??P13 is Murray 16:09:16 +Murray; got it 16:09:22 +??P32 16:09:25 Zakim, [IPcaller] is briansuda 16:09:25 sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' 16:09:34 Zakim, pick a scribe 16:09:34 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Adida 16:09:39 Zakim, pick a scribe 16:09:39 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose RonR (muted) 16:09:40 Zakim, [+??P32] is briansuda 16:09:41 sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '[+??P32]' 16:09:44 Zakim ??P32 is BrianSuda 16:09:46 Zakim, pick a scribe 16:09:46 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 16:09:49 Zakim, ??P32 is BrianSuda 16:09:49 +BrianSuda; got it 16:10:03 Zakim, pick a scribe 16:10:03 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose BrianSuda 16:10:39 scribe next week: DanC, who will show RonR for a future date 16:10:47 Zakim, next item 16:10:47 agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up 16:11:31 Withdraw XInclude Test? 16:11:36 HarryH: we might have to withdraw the XInclude Test 16:11:55 ... the test suite could have two outputs, or withdraw xinclude test 16:12:05 ... one that does xinclude, one that doesn't 16:12:22 DanC: that's substantive discussion of issue. 16:12:31 HarryH: I thought we had consensus. 16:12:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/att-0072/GRDDL_Weekly_--_20_Dec_2006.html 16:12:48 RESOLVED: to add issue faithful-infoset (split it out of issue-mt-ns) and close it a la: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case. (benA and BrianS abstaining) 16:13:04 Is this not resolved? 16:13:24 DanC: my understanding is that Xinclude should not happen in the test suite 16:13:29 "RESOLVED: to add issue faithful-infoset (split it out of issue-mt-ns) and close it a la: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case." 16:13:42 ... the decision I voted for is to not mandate it 16:14:22 I was under the distinct impression we resolved the issue 16:14:26 it's just not testable 16:14:40 HarryH: what's everyone's take? 16:15:00 ... we resolved to *not* mandate XInclude 16:15:14 ... what should our test suite do?? 16:15:21 DanC: shows this isn't resolved 16:15:36 Chime: difference between test suite and spec 16:16:00 "If an information resource IR is represented by an XML document whose root node is linked to a GRDDL transformation TX" 16:16:38 (scribe is a bit lost in this discussion, trying to summarize shortly.) 16:17:05 MurrayM: thought we agreed that GRDDL works with infosets 16:17:07 1) fetch 2) parse 3) handed over to GRDDL as XPath nodes / infoset 16:17:12 we are talking about step 2) 16:17:15 DanC: XPaths, specifically. 16:17:35 DanC: angle bracket doc determines the infoset you get. 16:17:44 Chime: not my understand of what we resolved: 3 step process (as above) 16:18:17 DanC: I asked about changing spec, no one spoke up 16:18:30 MurrayM: agree that we didn't close the issue 16:18:51 HarryH: I thought we were clear that we didn't mandate XInclude 16:19:26 ... we wanted Murray to write an informative paragraph 16:19:36 Chime: what's our criteria for considering the issue closed? 16:19:47 DanC: record says we resolved it, I suggest we reopen it 16:20:28 Chime: I don't see the issue with not having a test case scenario for something we don't mandate 16:21:00 MurrayM: it's a function of having the right tools available 16:21:08 \me Harry is listening to the discussion to determine whether or not to re-open 16:21:28 (you're actually allowing substantive discussion of the issue, which is out of order unless it's open.) 16:21:43 Chime: very distinct 3 steps 16:21:52 MurrayM: step 2 is ambiguous 16:22:05 Chime: what's our criteria for resolving step 2? 16:22:32 The question is whether if it's a test-suite implementation issue or a substantive issue. Apparently due to DanC's disagreement we should re-open the issue. 16:23:23 MurrayM: if we remain silent on XInclude and PSVI, then both approaches would be correct. 16:23:28 RESOLVED: re-open issue "faithful-infoset" as given by: (split it out of issue-mt-ns) and close it a la: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case. (benA and BrianS abstaining) 16:24:25 HarryH: two approaches: DanC says we don't do PSVI or Xinclude, Chime says we don't express an opinion 16:24:39 MurrayM: is that DanC's opinion? 16:24:43 DanC: is this test suite or spec? 16:24:48 HarryH: this is a substantive discussion 16:25:36 RESOLVE to table the issue 16:25:38 agenda + issue faithful-infoset 16:25:46 Zakim, next item 16:25:46 agendum 3. "[#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up 16:26:14 Zakim, close item 16:26:14 I don't understand 'close item', HarryH 16:26:17 Zakim, close this item 16:26:17 agendum 3 closed 16:26:18 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:26:19 4. GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML 16:26:23 Zakim, open item 2 16:26:23 agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up 16:26:44 DanC: Chime can't commit to CVS 16:27:09 ... I've copied test stuff into a different source control. 16:27:17 Chime: working on HL7 to RDF use case 16:27:21 ... not committed yet 16:28:07 ... committing now where I can 16:28:24 ... in Mercurial 16:28:27 http://homer.w3.org:8123/ 16:29:01 hg clone http://homer.w3.org:8123/ my-work-space 16:29:33 DanC: Brian has mailed a couple of tests 16:29:42 HarryH: we should get him CVS access 16:30:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0028.html 16:30:09 I see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#base-param 16:30:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1.html#base-param 16:31:17 [[[ 16:31:19 chimezie@Zion:~/devel/grddl-hg-test$ hg push http://homer.w3.org:8123/ 16:31:19 pushing to http://homer.w3.org:8123/ 16:31:19 ** unknown exception encountered, details follow 16:31:19 ** report bug details to mercurial@selenic.com 16:31:27 DanC: we're not quite ready to approve the test cases. 16:31:30 File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/mercurial/localrepo.py", line 893, in push 16:31:30 lock = remote.lock() 16:31:30 AttributeError: httprepository instance has no attribute 'lock' 16:31:31 ]]] 16:31:57 Propose we play test suite stuff meeting proper. 16:32:08 HarryH: I'll work on base-param 16:32:16 ACTION: To test #base-param and e-mail group 16:32:26 Zakim, next item 16:32:26 agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up 16:32:37 Zakim, open item 2 16:32:37 agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up 16:32:46 Briansuda - test suite access? 16:33:04 ACTION: DanC to give Brian McBride CVS access 16:34:10 ACTION: Ben to find access to GRDDL w3 cvs access 16:34:19 (well, benadida, collaborating by hg is a possibility) 16:35:32 HarryH: DanC, what do you recommend for source control? Hg, CVS, a combo? 16:35:38 DanC: priorities? 16:35:55 HarryH: fastest path to last call 16:36:23 Chime: spec editing is the high priority 16:36:57 HarryH: for now, email Harry test cases. 16:37:01 nope, I didn't - i'll send it again 16:37:15 Zakim, next item 16:37:15 agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up 16:37:20 Zakim, open item 3 16:37:20 agendum 3. "[#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up 16:38:09 ACTION: DanC to add N3/turtle mime type to Atom/turtle test case, noting the unregistered status [CONTINUES] 16:38:24 ACTION: DanC to write rules about XSLT 1.0 processing context [CONTINUES] 16:38:55 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jan/0012.html hGRDDL example 16:42:19 I don't have enough context for this scenario 16:43:47 16:46:17 discussion of RDFa output use case (hGRDDL) 16:47:52 DanC: run all transforms, and chooses what to do with outputs 16:49:50 Note that you would use javascript MIME type to distinguish whether or not to run javascript, if your GRDDL client is javascript enabled it will run it, otherwise it won't 16:50:53 BenA: worried about how "clean" this approach is. 16:53:14 i'd like to try Ben's RDFa parser against the output of a clientside firefox transformation of this hGRDDL example 16:54:31 HarryH: might be worth building all of GRDDL in this javascript implementation 16:55:53 HarryH: is it difficult to make test suite accept multiple correct outputs 16:56:35 DanC: there are cases in the spec with multiple correct results 16:56:52 ... either result is correct, as is their merge. So far test suite only has maximal result. 16:57:27 Chime: you'd have to explicitly do a non-lean-graph merging to handle this situation properly. 16:57:53 DanC: how about checking in one graph, two serializations of it. 16:58:31 DanC: even in the turtle case, I thought we would have only RDF/XML in the test suite. 16:58:40 HarryH: we won't get away with this in the RDFa case. 16:59:02 DanC: when you run the test, transformation produces Turtle, then compare graphs. 16:59:50 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/hGRDDL_Example 17:00:37 ... for testing purposes, the implementation of the hGRDDL test could produce NTriples 17:00:49 Chime, we'll move to your health-care primer test-case here. 17:00:56 After this discussion. 17:01:06 Ok 17:02:15 . ACTION benadida: work on hGRDDL test, checking it in, and propose it to the WG for approval 17:02:28 (60-90min) 17:02:45 Zakim, open item 8 17:02:45 agendum 8. "Primer Document" taken up 17:03:25 Chime: test case with sample HL7 document (official HL7 example), associated with transform that produces RDF using ontology I've been working on. 17:03:43 ... working on whether stylesheet captures only sample doc elements, or larger portion of HL7 schema 17:03:49 ... test case by end of this week 17:03:56 BrianSuda - primer? 17:04:28 still working on it 17:04:39 clearing up the sparql 17:04:49 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 17:04:55 All the same data is checked in. 17:05:20 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html 17:05:24 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html Revision 1.25 2007/01/09 23:54:10 17:05:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/hotel-data.html 17:06:14 HarryH: progress on hotel data section of primer, but not done 17:06:15 Zakim, close this item 17:06:15 agendum 8 closed 17:06:16 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:06:17 4. GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML 17:06:26 Zakim, open item 4 17:06:26 agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up 17:06:36 The word "Scraping" has been removed. 17:06:42 HarryH: word "scraping" has been removed 17:07:00 ... issue of tag-soup HTML. Fabian is on vacation until next week. 17:07:01 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm#html_tidy_use_case 17:07:07 "Use case #8 - Pulling Data from the Web: Steffen wants to build a directory of the people he works with. 17:07:07 " 17:07:22 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm#html_tidy_use_case 17:07:31 ... removed word "scraping". 17:07:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007JanMar/0001.html 17:08:24 ... Norm Gray: glad that it's a use case to use tidy. But running a few GRDDL transforms to try it out might be interesting as a separate use case. 17:08:32 ... not sure we should have these kinds of use cases. 17:09:07 "The script also systematically calls some classic transformations on the document in case these were not explicitly referenced in the page (e.g. FOAF and Dublin Core extraction, and the like)." 17:09:27 The script also systematically calls some classic transformations on the document in case these were not explicitly referenced in the page (e.g. FOAF and Dublin Core extraction, and the like). 17:09:36 HarryH: I could see that, but that's getting far from our goals. 17:09:49 RESOLVE to remove this sentence 17:09:55 ACTION: HarryH to remove the sentence: "The script also systematically calls some classic transformations on the document in case these were not explicitly referenced in the page (e.g. FOAF and Dublin Core extraction, and the like)." 17:10:59 Zakim, close this item 17:11:00 agendum 4 closed 17:11:01 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:11:03 5. Cross-document Introduction 17:11:10 HarryH: haven't heard from Ian in a bit. 17:11:15 Zakim, open item 6 17:11:15 agendum 6. "[#issue-mt-ns]" taken up 17:11:29 ... faithful infoset caveat 17:11:51 MurrayM: haven't written it yet. started a good discussion, then dead over holiday, it would be good to pick up now. 17:11:56 DanC: waiting for spec text. 17:12:20 ACTION: Murry to draft paragraph giving us caveat for faithful infoset issue closure. [CONTINUES] 17:12:37 BrianSuda - do you want to write the content negotiation test-case? 17:13:03 HarryH: content negotiation use case is quite important 17:13:31 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/0082 RE: Rules bug? format negotiation and GRDDL 17:14:06 DanC: consider our weekly agenda served in HTML or RDF. 17:14:25 ... the online GRDDL service gets RDF and is then all confused 17:14:31 http://www.w3.org/2003/11/rdf-in-xhtml-demo 17:15:07 ... the spec should say "if you get RDF, you win! stop!" 17:15:35 "Note issue issue-mt-ns is open. perhaps: special case for the RDF/XML namespace: RDF/XML documents are associated with RDF graphs as per the RDF/XML specification." 17:16:06 ... I have to think about this some more, it's on the todo list 17:16:50 ACTION: DanC to write spec text for content negotiation use case. (Specifically recognizing RDF) 17:17:04 ACTION: HarryH to check in a test case on content negotiation 17:17:55 HarryH: is everyone in agreement with DanC's explanation that, if you get RDF/XML, you sto? 17:18:00 s/sto?/stop?/ 17:18:25 Murray: it's not a GRDDL result 17:18:28 DanC: I think it is 17:18:41 ... a degenerate case of GRDDL 17:19:23 ... a GRDDL result is an RDF graph 17:19:44 ... if RDF/XML comes back, then the work is done 17:20:25 Murray: there is no GRDDL transformation, there can be no GRDDL result 17:20:46 ... the goal of GRDDL is to get an RDF result from something that isn't 17:20:49 DanC: not necessarily 17:22:19 Murray: the conclusion that "it's a graph, so it's a result" is a leap 17:23:25 DanC: some parts of the spec won't work if we do it this way 17:23:28 HarryH: what parts? 17:24:33 DanC: P3Q case is problematic 17:24:41 3. Using GRDDL with XML Namespace Documents http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec 17:26:45 Murray: you're saying a GRDDL result is the same thing as an RDF graph 17:27:06 DanC: different vision of what the spec is supposed to do. 17:28:26 Zakim, close item 17:28:26 I don't understand 'close item', HarryH 17:28:30 Zakim, close this item 17:28:30 agendum 6 closed 17:28:31 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:28:33 5. Cross-document Introduction 17:28:36 BenA: we should be careful to consider other RDF serializations, too. 17:29:17 HarryH: put remaining open issues in front or rear of agenda? 17:29:18 DanC: open first 17:29:20 Open issues first. 17:29:24 -Murray_Maloney 17:29:26 adjourned 17:29:27 Meeting adjourned 17:29:33 HarryH, are you sticking around? 17:29:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:29:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/10-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:29:52 -RonR 17:29:54 I have to grab lunch but I'll be online all day and am happy to play with SPARQL. 17:29:59 And work on primer stuff. 17:30:01 -BrianSuda 17:30:20 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 17:30:26 HarryH, i have just about everything working now, there is an issue with grokXFN.xsl 17:30:38 it doesn't seem to produce valid RDF 17:30:48 i'll email you have i have and finished so far 17:31:25 -Murray 17:31:31 Meeting: GRDDL Weekly 17:31:33 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:31:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/10-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:31:41 Zakim, list attendees 17:31:41 As of this point the attendees have been Ben_Adida, +1.919.457.aaaa, +1.703.861.aabb, DanC, Murray_Maloney, Chimezie_Ogbuji, RonR, Murray, BrianSuda 17:31:45 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:31:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/10-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:33:03 -DanC 17:33:08 -Ben_Adida 17:33:09 SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended 17:33:11 Attendees were Ben_Adida, +1.919.457.aaaa, +1.703.861.aabb, DanC, Murray_Maloney, Chimezie_Ogbuji, RonR, Murray, BrianSuda 17:59:12 chimezie has joined #grddl-wg 18:05:14 benadida has left #grddl-wg 18:12:22 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 18:13:47 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 19:46:21 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 19:58:43 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 21:17:47 HarryH has joined #grddl-wg 21:34:17 hmm...