15:26:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:26:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-rif-irc
15:26:26 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:26:26 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
15:27:33 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 09 Jan 07
15:27:33 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:27:33 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jan/0036.html
15:27:57 <ChrisW> /topic #rif 09 Jan RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jan/0036.html
15:28:02 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 09 Jan RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jan/0036.html
15:28:13 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:28:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:28:13 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:28:29 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:28:33 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2f
15:28:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
15:28:43 <ChrisW> agenda+ Technical Design
15:28:51 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
15:28:56 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIFRAF
15:28:59 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
15:36:12 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:49:33 <Francois> Francois has joined #rif
15:53:38 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
15:55:44 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:56:38 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:56:38 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:45 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:57:10 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:57:11 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:57:24 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:57:25 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:57:26 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:57:26 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:57:27 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:57:42 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW
15:58:17 <ChrisW> dave hirtle, you there?
15:58:22 <Zakim> +??P9
15:58:27 <Francois> zakim, ??P9 is me.
15:58:27 <Zakim> +Francois; got it
15:58:33 <Zakim> +??P30
15:58:39 <Francois> zakim, mute me.
15:58:39 <Zakim> Francois should now be muted
15:58:42 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, ??p30 is me
15:58:42 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:58:46 <ChrisW> are you joining us today, dave?
15:59:07 <csma> david, could you scribe today, please?
15:59:09 <Francois> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe
15:59:18 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:59:20 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:59:48 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:59:49 <Zakim> +??P34
15:59:58 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
16:00:10 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:00:14 <csma> zakim, ??P34 is me
16:00:14 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:00:38 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:00:54 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
16:00:58 <Zakim> +??P41
16:00:59 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P41)
16:01:01 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
16:01:02 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds
16:01:34 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
16:01:36 <Zakim> +??P43
16:01:47 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
16:02:27 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan
16:02:29 <Zakim> -??P43
16:02:43 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:02:45 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
16:02:53 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:03:02 <JeffP> zakim, who is here
16:03:02 <Zakim> JeffP, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:13 <JeffP> zakim, who is here?
16:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg
16:03:22 <Zakim> ... (muted)
16:03:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Allen, Deborah_Nichols, JeffP, DaveReynolds, johnhall, StellaMitchell, Hassan, csma, FrankMcCabe, mdean, Harold, AlexKozlenkov, Francois, DavidHirtle, RRSAgent,
16:03:27 <Zakim> ... ChrisW, Zakim, MoZ, sandro, rifbot
16:03:50 <ChrisW> dave hirtle are you thjere?
16:04:03 <ChrisW> john hall? are you joining us today?
16:04:08 <Zakim> +??P54
16:04:13 <AlexKozlenkov> zakim, ??P54 is me
16:04:13 <Zakim> +??P50
16:04:19 <Zakim> +AlexKozlenkov; got it
16:04:32 <johnhall> trying to get a phone connection
16:04:41 <csma> scribe: Alex
16:04:46 <ChrisW> Scribe: Alex Kozlenkov
16:04:59 <ChrisW> scribenick: AlexKozlenkov
16:05:12 <AlexKozlenkov> Next meeting 16th of January
16:05:35 <agiurca> agiurca has joined #rif
16:05:37 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: actions review
16:05:38 <Zakim> -??P50
16:05:50 <AlexKozlenkov> Chris: no admin actions
16:05:53 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:06:29 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Dec 19th telecon minutes
16:06:30 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: December 19th minutes approved
16:06:43 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:07:02 <AlexKozlenkov> Deborah: There are additional notes from Harold
16:07:09 <Zakim> +??P5
16:07:20 <johnhall> zakim, p5 is me
16:07:22 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:24 <AlexKozlenkov> Deborah: we should wait for the new version
16:07:29 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:07:33 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
16:07:35 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:07:43 <Zakim> +[TU-Cottbus]
16:07:45 <Zakim> sorry, johnhall, I do not recognize a party named 'p5'
16:07:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols, Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg (muted),
16:07:52 <Zakim> ... AlexKozlenkov, Gary_Hallmark, ??P5, [IBM], [TU-Cottbus]
16:07:53 <AlexKozlenkov> Deborah: the minutes will be published tomorrow
16:07:58 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:08:13 <agiurca> zakim, [TU-Cottbus] is agiurca
16:08:13 <Zakim> +agiurca; got it
16:08:24 <agiurca> zakim, mute me
16:08:24 <Zakim> agiurca should now be muted
16:08:33 <igor> igor has joined #rif
16:08:36 <ChrisW> zakim, ??P5 is johnhall
16:08:36 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
16:08:42 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: action for F2F5
16:08:52 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:08:52 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:08:57 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg (muted),
16:08:59 <AlexKozlenkov> Sandro: the meeting page is not yet set up
16:09:02 <Zakim> ... AlexKozlenkov, Gary_Hallmark, johnhall (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), agiurca (muted)
16:09:04 <Zakim> +[IVML]
16:09:18 <AlexKozlenkov> Sandro: should be there in the next couple of days
16:09:21 <Zakim> +??P20
16:09:28 <ChrisW> action 201 continued
16:09:34 <igor> zakim, ??P20 is me
16:09:34 <Zakim> +igor; got it
16:09:38 <igor> zakim, mute me
16:09:38 <Zakim> igor should now be muted
16:09:39 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:09:40 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:09:49 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: Allen, any news about the meeting?
16:10:09 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: Hotel is the main issue. Comfort Inn is good
16:10:21 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: free shuttle from Dallas airport
16:10:45 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: the information will be put up shortly
16:11:06 <csma> q?
16:11:17 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: Dallas the bets place to fly
16:11:47 <csma> s/Dallas/Dulles/
16:11:59 <AlexKozlenkov> Sure, my fault obviously
16:12:12 <AlexKozlenkov> It's not Texas :-)
16:12:53 <ChrisW> despite attempts by the president...
16:13:29 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: the page will have to have nationalities registered on the meeting web
16:13:58 <AlexKozlenkov> Deborah: we need to have nationalities for security procedures
16:15:17 <AlexKozlenkov> Deborah: all requirements will be checked shortly
16:15:43 <ChrisW> action: Allen to check information needed for foreign visitors, deadline for reg
16:15:43 <rifbot> Created ACTION-206 - Check information needed for foreign visitors, deadline for reg [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2007-01-16].
16:15:56 <Allen> zakim,  mute me
16:15:56 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:16:13 <johnhall> SBVR - nothing new
16:16:21 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:16:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "F2f" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:25 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: Liaisons, nothing new from OMG
16:16:29 <ChrisW> zakim, clsoe item 2
16:16:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clsoe item 2', ChrisW
16:16:31 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:16:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisW
16:16:34 <ChrisW> zakim, clsoe item 3
16:16:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clsoe item 3', ChrisW
16:16:44 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 2
16:16:44 <Zakim> agendum 2, F2f, closed
16:16:45 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:46 <Zakim> 3. Liason [from ChrisW]
16:16:47 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:16:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:49 <AlexKozlenkov> Slots and constraints discussion
16:16:51 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 3
16:16:51 <Zakim> agendum 3, Liason, closed
16:16:52 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:53 <Zakim> 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
16:16:53 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:16:53 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:17:12 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:17:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg
16:17:15 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: Michael kifer is not here
16:17:15 <Zakim> ... (muted), AlexKozlenkov, Gary_Hallmark, johnhall (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), agiurca (muted), [IVML], igor (muted)
16:17:26 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:17:34 <AlexKozlenkov> s/kifer/Kifer/
16:18:25 <ChrisW> zakim, take up next item
16:18:25 <Zakim> agendum 5. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:26 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: start first with the use cases and requirements
16:18:28 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:19:02 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: proposes action review
16:19:24 <johnhall> zakim,unmute me
16:19:24 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
16:19:29 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: action 132
16:19:33 <ChrisW> action 132 closed
16:19:55 <AlexKozlenkov> johnwall: finished as reported two meetings ago
16:20:01 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:20:01 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:20:02 <ChrisW> action 144 continued
16:20:06 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: 144 continued
16:20:17 <ChrisW> action 167-168 closed
16:20:19 <Allen> yes
16:20:26 <igor> ok
16:20:26 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: 167/168 closed: definition of "covers"
16:20:41 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: 169: glossary
16:20:41 <ChrisW> action 169 continued
16:21:03 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: continued, but proposes other should contribute
16:21:28 <ChrisW> action 169 closed
16:21:37 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:21:37 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:21:39 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: closes the action waiting for a new responsible
16:21:44 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: 197
16:22:06 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: cleared and ready apart from small details in UC1
16:22:25 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:22:42 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: takes up an action on UC1 motivation for linking to requirements
16:22:43 <ChrisW> action: Christian to clean up UC 1 requirements motivation
16:22:43 <rifbot> Created ACTION-207 - Clean up UC 1 requirements motivation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-01-16].
16:23:05 <ChrisW> action 197 closed
16:23:19 <ChrisW> action 205 closed
16:23:21 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: 205, new definition of covers added to UCR
16:23:55 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:24:01 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:24:02 <Allen> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Introduction
16:24:05 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:24:05 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:24:08 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: question: any objections tro the proposed definition linked above
16:24:21 <ChrisW> "One of the critical factors for a successful RIF is that it be useful for interchange of rules among the set of rule languages it is intended to cover. Section 5, Coverage, deals with the issue of how to characterize the space of rule languages in such a way that clear and principled decisions as to what the RIF will (and will not) cover can be made. We note that in this document we deliberately refrain from defining the notion of "coverage" in a rigorous manner, 
16:24:28 <igor> didn't Sandro propose an alternative?
16:25:01 <csma> q?
16:25:16 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:25:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg, AlexKozlenkov,
16:25:19 <Zakim> ... johnhall (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), agiurca (muted), [IVML], igor (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer (muted)
16:25:43 <ChrisW> Proposed: Accept definition of covers and close Issue-22
16:26:11 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: altrernative Sandro's proposal is actually included based on e-mail exchange
16:26:38 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: definition is approved and issue closed
16:26:49 <Deborah_Nichols> chris, yes, I can
16:26:53 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept definition of covers and close Issue-22
16:27:03 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: it is approved by consensus
16:27:04 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:27:04 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:27:13 <ChrisW> action: deborah to update issues list to reflect resolution
16:27:13 <rifbot> Created ACTION-208 - Update issues list to reflect resolution [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-01-16].
16:27:21 <csma> sandro, are you here? We are discussing issue 12
16:28:37 <AlexKozlenkov> Dave: Sandro's objections are not critical
16:28:50 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: RIF is the base of SWRL
16:28:53 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:29:06 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: is the core question
16:29:16 <AlexKozlenkov> DaveReynolds: can live with that
16:29:44 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: we prefer that RIF will be the basis of SWRL
16:30:17 <AlexKozlenkov> Sandro: OK with that, perhaps a third path could be found
16:30:41 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: we would not work on that
16:30:52 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: RIG WG is not responsible for this
16:31:11 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: proposes to accept Sandro's proposal
16:31:24 <AlexKozlenkov> CrisW: proposes to put it back to next week
16:31:39 <AlexKozlenkov> s/CrisW/ChrisW/
16:31:39 <ChrisW> action: Christian to put resolution of issue-12 on next weeks agenda
16:31:40 <rifbot> Created ACTION-209 - Put resolution of issue-12 on next weeks agenda [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-01-16].
16:32:03 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: the text will be added to UCR
16:32:17 <AlexKozlenkov> Dave: probably into the Introduction
16:32:42 <AlexKozlenkov> Sandro: we could put it into the UCR now
16:33:02 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:33:04 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: still let us wait for a week before adding it
16:33:51 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: close to the thrid version of UCR
16:33:53 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, ChrisW, Francois (muted), FrankMcCabe, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg (muted),
16:33:58 <Zakim> ... AlexKozlenkov, johnhall (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), agiurca (muted), [IVML], igor (muted), Michael_Kifer (muted), Sandro
16:33:59 <AlexKozlenkov> s/thrid/third/
16:34:08 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:34:08 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:34:23 <ChrisW> Who is IVML?
16:34:54 <AlexKozlenkov> Allen: make a note about specific features in RIFRAF
16:35:16 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: could be for the next draft
16:35:30 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: it is for the time when RIFRAF is complete
16:36:01 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: Version 3 should be released before the end of the month
16:36:25 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
16:36:25 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:36:28 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:36:28 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:36:33 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
16:36:33 <Zakim> agendum 6. "RIFRAF" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:36:58 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: action review on RIFRAF quickly before returning to the Technical Design
16:37:33 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: All ontologizing actions are continued
16:37:51 <ChrisW> all RIFRAF actions continued
16:38:16 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
16:38:16 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:38:16 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: all actions are continued
16:38:23 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:38:23 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:38:26 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: back to the Technical Design
16:38:32 <AlexKozlenkov> Mic
16:38:48 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:38:57 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: summary on the issues
16:39:16 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: two styles: relational and OO
16:39:58 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: relational is less general, no explicit object id
16:40:13 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: relational can be converted to OO
16:40:26 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:40:34 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer, in general, the opposite may not be possible
16:41:05 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer, OO uses binary and unary predicates with object ids as first arguments
16:41:20 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: this means going baack to relational notation is not possible
16:42:08 <ChrisW> Michael, please stop breathing into the phone
16:42:20 <Francois> q+ to translation oriented to relational. 
16:42:40 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: confused because all the information in the OO slotted notation can be expressed in relational notation by combination of binary predicates
16:43:23 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: conversely, adding information is not possible that is introducing object id that is not in the relational model
16:43:26 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:43:31 <csma> q?
16:43:50 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: going back is problemmatic because there is no place for object-id
16:44:27 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: refers to his example in e-mail
16:45:12 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: object id can be made explicit
16:45:24 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: in  relational notation
16:45:35 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: relational slotted notation is more restricted
16:46:14 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: id is uniquely implied there by the values
16:46:17 <Harold> Michael, what Christian seems to say is oid:Class{s1-v1,...,sN->vN} can be simulated via Class{s0->oid,s1-v1,...,sN->vN}.
16:47:33 <Harold> q+
16:47:40 <Francois> zakim, unmute me.
16:47:40 <Zakim> Francois should no longer be muted
16:47:42 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: is of opinion it is an important issue 
16:47:45 <csma> acq francois
16:47:57 <csma> ack francois
16:47:57 <Zakim> Francois, you wanted to translation oriented to relational.
16:48:43 <AlexKozlenkov> Francois: OO has implicit ids vs. the ones that should be made explicit in the relational case
16:49:44 <Francois> zakim, mute me.
16:49:45 <Zakim> Francois should now be muted
16:49:48 <csma> ack franck
16:49:59 <csma> ack frank
16:50:24 <MichaelKifer> Harold, the point is that  Class{s0->oid,s1-v1,...,sN->vN} in the relational notation is an object with id that is different from oid.
16:50:36 <AlexKozlenkov> FrankMcCabe: object is the query itself
16:51:04 <AlexKozlenkov> FrankMcCabe: no handle as blank nodes in RDF
16:51:16 <Zakim> +Gerd_Wagner
16:51:28 <GerdWagner> GerdWagner has joined #rif
16:51:40 <ChrisW> Adrian, are you here?
16:51:41 <Harold> Michael, the (relational) 'key' is a local id only.
16:51:53 <csma> q?
16:51:57 <GerdWagner> zakim, mute me
16:51:57 <Zakim> Gerd_Wagner should now be muted
16:52:19 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:52:22 <csma> ack harold
16:52:59 <AlexKozlenkov> Harold: perhaps the dimension for slotted notations should be reconsidered for RIFRAF
16:53:21 <Hassan> I agree with Frank. Michael seemed to agree. Slotted notation should be out of CORE and left to each dialect to be specified as constraints.
16:54:02 <GaryHallmark> all the rule languages I'm interested in are slotted because they bind to "real world" data -- relational data, XML data, or Java data
16:54:27 <GaryHallmark> -1 for not addressing this up front in a common way in CORE
16:54:58 <ChrisW> q+
16:55:11 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:55:24 <csma> ack michael
16:55:43 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: including slots or constraints affects roundtripping
16:56:12 <ChrisW> q- (that's what I wanted to say)
16:56:19 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: based on this understanding it should be agreed on where it is
16:56:19 <ChrisW> q-
16:56:44 <GerdWagner> q
16:56:49 <GerdWagner> q+
16:57:42 <AlexKozlenkov> GaryHallmark: better to have a common way of representing slots
16:57:43 <MichaelKifer> my understanding is that slotted or not slotted impacts only the round trip point. in fact, any syntactic feature beyond plain unsorted predicate calculus (incl constraints) is a round trip issue
16:58:27 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:58:46 <Harold> Closed slots can be introduced without introducing oids at the same time, which is what we need for Phase 1.
16:58:49 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: action on GaryHallmark t oprovide examples with rules where slotted notation is useful
16:58:50 <agiurca> There are many examples of rules with slots. See for example JBoss Rules
16:58:50 <ChrisW> q+ i'm not sure having objects in rules and slotted notation are the same
16:58:52 <csma> ack gerd
16:59:00 <ChrisW> q+ to say i'm not sure having objects in rules and slotted notation are the same
16:59:27 <csma> +1 to chrisw
16:59:35 <AlexKozlenkov> GerdWagner: refers to his previous e-mails with examples of JBoss Rules
16:59:49 <agiurca> Must be a common understanding of  what is a slot
17:00:03 <sandro> q?
17:00:25 <agiurca> F-Logic examples: http://oxygen.informatik.tu-cottbus.de/rewerse-i1/?q=node/22
17:00:26 <GerdWagner> see http://oxygen.informatik.tu-cottbus.de/rewerse-i1/?q=node/24
17:00:32 <FrankMcCabe> q-
17:00:33 <sandro> The nature of the Core -- whether it should have Option Features -- is a different discussion!
17:00:51 <Francois> Sorry, Friends, I have to leave. 
17:00:54 <Francois> bye.
17:00:58 <ChrisW> q?
17:01:08 <Zakim> -Francois
17:01:32 <csma> q?
17:01:41 <csma> ack chrisw
17:01:41 <Zakim> ChrisW, you wanted to say i'm not sure having objects in rules and slotted notation are the same
17:02:38 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: having named roles is not the same as OO representation
17:02:55 <Harold> Chris, I agree calling them 'keyword arguments' can remove the confusion.
17:02:57 <Hassan> Yes Chris !
17:03:10 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: these are separate ideas possibly due to the term "slotted" used for both
17:03:34 <Hassan> q+
17:03:37 <agiurca> In F-Logic : X:person[ancestor->>Y:person] .  How this translate to RIF?
17:03:41 <Harold> What I called 'closed slots' could be called 'keyword arguments'.
17:03:54 <csma> acq hassan
17:04:05 <csma> q?
17:04:13 <csma> ack hassan
17:05:10 <agiurca> JBoss Rules Column: i : Item(actualDeliveryDate : actualDeliveryDate, scheduledDeliveryDate : scheduledDeliveryDate ) is another example in favor of slots
17:05:25 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: agree on the same datastructure and then sugar it into any form )in dialects)
17:06:16 <Harold> Hassan, the nice thing with 'keyword arguments' is we don't need extra semantics: this simple case we need in Phase 1 can be 'de-sugared', as you say.
17:07:03 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: agrees with Gerd that a convenience will be useful
17:07:34 <MichaelKifer> q+
17:08:50 <csma> ack michael
17:08:57 <Harold> In CLP terminology, 'keyword arguments' are very special kind of constraints. In Phase 2 we can generalize this in the light of full CLP.
17:09:21 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: can Hassan clarify his proposal for the convenience in the core
17:10:12 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: if 80% of clients agree on the model even if it is not perfect, this syntax will be good to have
17:10:41 <MichaelKifer> q-
17:11:00 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: concerned about the remaining 20%. Would it be too bad for them
17:11:10 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
17:11:10 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
17:11:22 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: the convenince will be ignored by the 20%
17:11:23 <GerdWagner> there is no 100% coverage goal!
17:12:11 <csma> q?
17:12:24 <AlexKozlenkov> Hassan: the convenince notaiton would be able to be converted to the universal constraints notation and then it can be accepted by the remaining 20% of the systems
17:12:33 <MichaelKifer> i don't understand hak's arg: what is the point of having slotted notation in the core, but not giving it a semantics
17:12:38 <AlexKozlenkov> s/convenince/convenience/
17:12:57 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
17:12:57 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
17:15:46 <agiurca> agiurca has joined #rif
17:15:48 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: taking up again the relational to OO roundtripping
17:17:37 <GerdWagner> q+
17:17:43 <Harold> Chris, I proposed a round-trip between positional and slotted arguments, or better between non-keyword and keyword arguments.
17:17:55 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: how do we lose the relational tuples if it went to th eOO and back
17:18:09 <Harold> Round-tripping between relational and OO is much harder.
17:19:01 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: are we giving up anything in that LangA goes to Core then to LangB and back it could be problemmatic
17:19:11 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: UC1 is such example
17:19:17 <agiurca> We need to use object oriented notation. Then the roundtrip is possible.
17:20:20 <Harold> oid:Class{s1-v1,...,sN->vN}  ==> Class{s0->oid,s1-v1,...,sN->vN}  ==> oid:Class{s1-v1,...,sN->vN} has some problems, as Michael mentioned.
17:20:37 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: will work with csma on his example on this roundtripping
17:20:49 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: the core will have a keyword syntax
17:20:58 <AlexKozlenkov> CfhrisW: ... available to it
17:21:30 <AlexKozlenkov> s/CfhrisW/Chris/
17:21:43 <DaveReynolds> possibly, depends on what it says about signatures
17:21:55 <GerdWagner> q-
17:21:57 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: consensus on that: have keyword arguments
17:22:07 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: ... in the core
17:22:23 <AlexKozlenkov> csma; takes up notion of RIF conformance
17:22:39 <GerdWagner> alex please add "keyword arguments in the sense of OO slots"
17:22:45 <ChrisW> consensus that we should have "keyword" syntax with what Michael called "OO semantics"
17:22:54 <Hassan> What is an optional feature?
17:22:55 <AlexKozlenkov> Will do Chris
17:23:26 <MichaelKifer> q+
17:23:36 <Harold> Take Gary's recursion discussion, as an example.
17:23:39 <csma> ack michael
17:23:54 <AlexKozlenkov> s/conformance/compliance/
17:24:03 <ChrisW> "implementing the core" means translating in/out of it
17:24:28 <Hassan> Then it is necessary to have such options if we adopt the 80%/20% convenience slotted syntax.
17:25:33 <Harold> The core could have optional feature recursive="yes" vs. recursive="no" (I think recursive="yes" should be the default, so we would have a 'negative' optional feature).
17:25:40 <AlexKozlenkov> MichaelKifer: implementing the core is not yet fully defined
17:26:32 <AlexKozlenkov> ChrisW: the question is not about implementing but about translatingf
17:26:33 <ChrisW> we are out of time
17:26:48 <AlexKozlenkov> s/translatingf/translating/
17:27:11 <ChrisW> we are out of time
17:27:27 <csma> almost
17:29:05 <johnhall> Sorry, I have another meeting
17:29:12 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: implementing a dialect and compliance
17:29:15 <Zakim> -johnhall
17:29:23 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov: we need both defintions
17:29:32 <AlexKozlenkov> csma: no consensus yet on this
17:29:37 <sandro> +1 adjourn
17:29:39 <Hassan> +1 to adjourn
17:29:48 <Zakim> -Harold
17:29:52 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:29:53 <GerdWagner> bye
17:29:54 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
17:29:55 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
17:29:56 <Zakim> -igor
17:29:56 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
17:29:57 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:29:58 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
17:30:00 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:30:01 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
17:30:02 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
17:30:04 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
17:30:05 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:30:06 <Zakim> -[IVML]
17:30:08 <Zakim> -Gerd_Wagner
17:30:09 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:30:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:31:31 <Zakim> -AlexKozlenkov
17:31:46 <agiurca> -agiurca
17:31:55 <agiurca> quit
17:32:02 <ChrisW> Regrets: PaulaLaviniaPatranjan JosDeBruijn LeoraMorgenstern MichaelSintek
17:34:38 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:34:41 <ChrisW> oops
17:34:47 <ChrisW> hits the wrong button
17:34:50 <Zakim> -agiurca
17:34:54 <csma> anything else you wanted to discuss?
17:34:58 <ChrisW> no
17:35:01 <ChrisW> see you tomorrow
17:35:09 <csma> let's talk tomorrow, then
17:35:14 <Zakim> -csma
17:35:15 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:35:16 <Zakim> Attendees were Harold, ChrisW, Francois, FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols, Jeff_Pan, Allen_Ginsberg, AlexKozlenkov, Gary_Hallmark,
17:35:18 <Zakim> ... StellaMitchell, agiurca, johnhall, [IVML], igor, Michael_Kifer, Gerd_Wagner
17:35:32 <csma> bye
17:35:34 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:35:37 <ChrisW> ciao
17:35:49 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:36:03 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has left #rif
18:21:12 <MoZ> sandro, is there any know problem on w3.org right now ?