IRC log of dawg on 2007-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc
14:28:46 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:28:46 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF, I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM already started
14:28:57 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:28:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Souri_Das
14:28:59 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
14:28:59 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF
14:29:20 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:29:27 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:29:27 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:29:36 [LeeF]
Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly
14:29:41 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:29:51 [LeeF]
Regrets: jeen, eliasT, SteveH, kendallclark
14:30:14 [LeeF]
agenda+ Convene
14:30:22 [LeeF]
agenda+ Review ACTION Items
14:30:29 [LeeF]
agenda +Test suite
14:30:37 [LeeF]
agenda +Path SPARQL and accessingCollections
14:30:57 [LeeF]
agenda+ rq24/rq25 status
14:31:11 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #dawg
14:31:42 [Zakim]
+??P10
14:31:49 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P10 is me
14:31:49 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:32:21 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:32:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Souri_Das, LeeF, AndyS
14:32:34 [AndyS]
zkim, kick EricP
14:32:38 [AndyS]
zakim, kick EricP
14:32:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'kick EricP', AndyS
14:34:56 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:35:24 [Zakim]
+Simon_Raboczi
14:35:28 [SimonR]
Woot.
14:36:45 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=35463
14:37:30 [LeeF]
iv_an_ru, are you around?
14:38:20 [AndyS]
Scribe: AndyS
14:38:52 [iv_an_ru]
Hello LeeF
14:39:20 [LeeF]
iv_an_ru, I see that you've joined the working group - would you like to / be able to call in to the telecon that's beginning now?
14:39:31 [ericP]
Fri, 29 Dec 2006 06:36:01 +0000: OpenLink Software Inc. has nominated Ivan Mikhailov to RDF Data Access Working Group
14:39:40 [AndyS]
Minutes of last time.
14:39:41 [ericP]
mid: E1H0BLV-0002Sb-Te@wiggum.w3.org
14:39:42 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/att-0005/simon-RDF_DAWG_Weekly_--_2_Jan_2007.html#ActionSummary
14:39:47 [iv_an_ru]
I'm trying
14:40:16 [AndyS]
Seconds by AndyS
14:40:19 [AndyS]
Seconded by AndyS
14:40:31 [AndyS]
Meet next time: in one week's time
14:40:44 [iv_an_ru]
Start w/o me
14:41:25 [Zakim]
+ +7.383.345.aaaa
14:42:06 [iv_an_ru]
I can hear :)
14:42:16 [ericP]
RRSAgent, help
14:42:52 [AndyS]
ScribeNext: Souri?
14:43:08 [sdas2]
sure, I'll try
14:43:11 [AndyS]
Ivan: Intro
14:43:25 [AndyS]
... XSLT and XQuery impl experience
14:43:40 [AndyS]
... implementing SPARQL on SQL for Virtuoso
14:44:01 [AndyS]
LeeF: Please send intro email to DAWG list for linking
14:45:02 [AndyS]
ScribeNext: Souri
14:45:09 [LeeF]
agenda?
14:45:19 [LeeF]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:45:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:45:21 [AndyS]
LeeF: Any Comments on agenda?
14:45:26 [LeeF]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:45:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, LeeF
14:45:29 [AndyS]
all: (silence)
14:45:30 [LeeF]
zakim, move to agendum 2
14:45:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:46:01 [AndyS]
ACTION: LeeF to update the issues list marking punction syntax [DONE]
14:46:04 [AndyS]
DONE
14:46:19 [AndyS]
ACTION: Souri to review rq24
14:46:20 [AndyS]
DONE
14:46:34 [AndyS]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification from Bob McG
14:46:36 [AndyS]
DONE
14:47:03 [AndyS]
ACTION: LeeF to close formsOfDistinct issue
14:47:04 [AndyS]
DONE
14:47:35 [AndyS]
ACTION: EricP to sort out some string literal thing for the operator table
14:47:37 [AndyS]
DONE
14:47:52 [AndyS]
ACTION: Jeen to get started setting up new test directory
14:47:53 [AndyS]
DONE
14:48:02 [AndyS]
ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put
14:48:04 [AndyS]
CONTINUES
14:48:21 [AndyS]
ACTION: PatH to change the entailment section around to talk about SPARQL first, then more general conditions in a normative appendix
14:48:25 [AndyS]
CONTINUES
14:48:34 [AndyS]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests
14:48:37 [AndyS]
CONTINUES
14:48:44 [LeeF]
Jeen test suite: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0007.html
14:48:49 [LeeF]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:48:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:48:54 [LeeF]
zakim, move to agendum 3
14:48:54 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test suite" taken up [from LeeF]
14:49:28 [AndyS]
Jeen has committed some tests and super manifests
14:49:43 [AndyS]
... synatx tests and triple pattern tests
14:49:55 [AndyS]
s/synatx/syntax/g
14:50:26 [AndyS]
AndyS (email) There is a more recent set of syntax test.
14:51:18 [AndyS]
LeeF: request to review Jeen's first test batch.
14:51:41 [AndyS]
(no volunteers on the phone)
14:52:07 [AndyS]
... this agenda item will become a standing "test approval" slot.
14:52:08 [iv_an_ru]
I can try to review during the weekend.
14:52:15 [LeeF]
iv_an_ru, that would be great
14:52:55 [AndyS]
EricP: suggestion to make syntax only cover stuff not covered elsewhere
14:53:08 [AndyS]
... because there is overlap.
14:53:49 [AndyS]
LeeF: can see value in having broad coverage in syntax tests (e.g. parser writers)
14:55:05 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about parser writers
14:55:18 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
14:55:19 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about parser writers
14:55:35 [SimonR]
+q comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax
14:55:57 [SimonR]
+q to comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax
14:56:18 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball)
14:57:28 [iv_an_ru]
can see value in having two outputs per every syntax test: list of parsed lexems plus the rest as usual.
14:57:54 [LeeF]
ack SimonR
14:57:54 [Zakim]
SimonR, you wanted to comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax
14:58:30 [AndyS]
AndyS: advocates having a separate set of tests for syntax and not ask implementers to extract tests themselves.
14:59:14 [ericP]
yacker kinda gives us an "abstract" syntax, but it's ugly
14:59:29 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=PREFIX+my%3A+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2F%3E+ASK+%7B+my%3Afoo+my%3A5.5+%7D&action=validate+text yacker "abstract syntax"
15:00:21 [AndyS]
http://sparql.org/validator?query=PREFIX+books%3A+++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2Fbook%2F%3E%0D%0APREFIX+dc%3A++++++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Fdc%2Felements%2F1.1%2F%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ASELECT+%3Fbook+%3Ftitle%0D%0AWHERE%0D%0A+++%7B+%3Fbook+dc%3Atitle+%3Ftitle+%7D&languageSyntax=SPARQL&outputFormat=prefix&linenumbers=true
15:01:14 [AndyS]
SimonR: (discusses a formalized abstract representation of a syntax tree)
15:02:24 [ericP]
q+ to say if the semantics pass, we're happy with whatever abstract syntax the impl used
15:02:25 [SimonR]
Okay, maybe I'll type instead.
15:03:00 [SimonR]
I'm suggesting that we really do have to standardize a single abstract syntax if the language is going to be unambiguous.
15:03:35 [AndyS]
AndyS: The purpose is to get implementation reports
15:03:46 [AndyS]
... if a test fails, we don't know why
15:03:56 [AndyS]
EricP: does it matter why they fail?
15:04:32 [AndyS]
AndyS: Good to know why a test fails for feedback
15:05:16 [iv_an_ru]
How can I use an SPARQL abstract syntax if I compile a mix of SPARQL and SQL? I have more nodes in my tree than it is expected for plain SPARQL, ditto more properties.
15:05:17 [AndyS]
EricP: burden having more tests because need tracking
15:05:33 [SimonR]
Both RDF/XML and NTriples are concrete syntaxes, but the tests that convert between the two do demonstrate that you're parsing the right abstract syntax. We don't quite have an equivalent to NTriples.
15:07:45 [LeeF]
AndyS: I have a large test suite that I use against the syntax tests for developing the grammar -- it would be a burden on me to switch to using the evaluation tests to test the grammar
15:08:18 [LeeF]
q?
15:10:28 [ericP]
ack me
15:10:28 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to say if the semantics pass, we're happy with whatever abstract syntax the impl used
15:11:50 [AndyS]
LeeF: Will bring this to Jeen's attention.
15:11:56 [LeeF]
zakim, move to agendum 4
15:11:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Path SPARQL and accessingCollections" taken up [from LeeF]
15:12:13 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Jan/0001.html
15:12:21 [SimonR]
So it's slightly different from the RDF case, which is standardized at the abstract syntax level with multiple concrete syntaxes. SPARQL is standardized at the concrete syntax level.
15:13:00 [DanC]
DanC has joined #dawg
15:13:10 [Zakim]
+DanC
15:13:23 [LeeF]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#accessingCollections
15:14:07 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T15-13-23
15:14:09 [LeeF]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0014.html
15:15:30 [AndyS]
LeeF: feedback received from Steve and Kendall: both not in favour
15:15:46 [AndyS]
LeeF: asked for opinions from the WG
15:15:48 [sdas2]
This is an important requirement, but requires careful thinking and I'd be leaning towards postponing it.
15:16:36 [AndyS]
DanC: prompted by OWL1.1 which is only just being setup - SPARQL 1.1 is 5year away.
15:16:45 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:16:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Souri_Das, LeeF, AndyS, EricP, Simon_Raboczi, +7.383.345.aaaa, DanC
15:17:40 [AndyS]
Souri: important requirement but not trivial Oracle concerned about the delay.
15:17:55 [LeeF]
zakim, aaaa is iv_an_ru
15:17:55 [Zakim]
+iv_an_ru; got it
15:17:56 [iv_an_ru]
We (= OpenLink) can't imlement path expressions both easily and effeciently :(
15:18:08 [AndyS]
EricP: conservative - nervous of the time taken
15:18:45 [SimonR]
I'm in favor of postponing.
15:18:45 [AndyS]
SimonR: don't want to precude future solutions
15:19:08 [AndyS]
zakim, aaaa is iv_an_ru
15:19:08 [Zakim]
sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:19:37 [AndyS]
Ivan: can't implement easily and efficiently
15:19:57 [SimonR]
the only really important thing is that we don't *preclude* any future solutions, and I think the new information actually supports the idea that we're not ruling out future extension to solve the problem.
15:20:03 [AndyS]
... datalog input on recursion may be informative.
15:20:56 [AndyS]
... no really good news here though
15:21:23 [AndyS]
... recursion will be coming along sometime but not just yet.
15:21:28 [SimonR]
zakim, mute me
15:21:28 [Zakim]
Simon_Raboczi should now be muted
15:21:44 [AndyS]
... will have to ignore feature for 6 months
15:22:11 [AndyS]
q+ to comment on this
15:22:18 [AndyS]
ack andys
15:22:18 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to comment on this
15:22:37 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
15:22:43 [SimonR]
AndyS: (1) Are we really talking about just collections, or the whole general issue of regexps?
15:22:44 [LeeF]
AndyS: 1) are we really talking about just collections or the whole mechanism of regular expression paths?
15:22:55 [SimonR]
AndyS: 2) What are the alternatives?
15:23:14 [DanC]
(indeed, Andy's ordering point is a user requirement that no design I know of meets.)
15:23:30 [SimonR]
AndyS: 3) It's not just accessing collections, it's also ordering. Sometimes collections are used as closed sets, sometimes as lists -- in which case, order is important.
15:23:49 [AndyS]
ARQ gives ordering guarantees - unless you then sort it!
15:24:33 [AndyS]
HP is not opposed to this issue. Also concerned with the size of the WG and energy leaking out.
15:25:31 [LeeF]
zakim, move to agendum 5
15:25:31 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "rq24/rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]
15:25:50 [ericP]
DanC, one could infer more than a magic predicate, but actually build a structure (<foo>) ==> [ :hasOrderedMember [ :member <Foo> ; :ordinal 0 ] ]
15:26:21 [SimonR]
AndyS: There are a number of features on the postponed list. It would seem a good idea to prioritize this list so we can reopen them in the best order.
15:26:40 [ericP]
DanC, also, our result set is order-able so i guess we can write special semantics that access order directly
15:26:55 [DanC]
"write special semantics" <- there be dragons.
15:27:08 [AndyS]
+1
15:27:15 [ericP]
yeah, that's what i did in algae so i could walk through manifests
15:27:26 [ericP]
hasn't been used elsewhere, though
15:27:26 [AndyS]
Proposed to adjourn
15:27:34 [ericP]
ADJOURN
15:27:35 [AndyS]
Seconded: DanC
15:27:41 [SimonR]
Adjourned at 15:27 Z.
15:27:53 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:27:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-minutes.html AndyS
15:28:15 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world-accessible
15:28:21 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world
15:28:28 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make minutes world
15:28:28 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:29:28 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please leave us
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-actions.rdf :
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to update the issues list marking punction syntax [DONE] [1]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-01
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Souri to review rq24 [2]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-19
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification from Bob McG [3]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-34
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to close formsOfDistinct issue [4]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-03
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to sort out some string literal thing for the operator table [5]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-35
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeen to get started setting up new test directory [6]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-52
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [7]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-02
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PatH to change the entailment section around to talk about SPARQL first, then more general conditions in a normative appendix [8]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-21
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [9]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-34
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) [10]
15:29:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-56-18