IRC log of dawg on 2007-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:43 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:28:43 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc

14:28:46 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be DAWG

14:28:46 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF, I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM already started

14:28:57 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:28:57 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Souri_Das

14:28:59 [LeeF]

zakim, code?

14:28:59 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF

14:29:20 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:29:27 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge is me

14:29:27 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:29:36 [LeeF]

Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly

14:29:41 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

14:29:51 [LeeF]

Regrets: jeen, eliasT, SteveH, kendallclark

14:30:14 [LeeF]

agenda+ Convene

14:30:22 [LeeF]

agenda+ Review ACTION Items

14:30:29 [LeeF]

agenda +Test suite

14:30:37 [LeeF]

agenda +Path SPARQL and accessingCollections

14:30:57 [LeeF]

agenda+ rq24/rq25 status

14:31:11 [AndyS]

AndyS has joined #dawg

14:31:42 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:31:49 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P10 is me

14:31:49 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:32:21 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:32:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Souri_Das, LeeF, AndyS

14:32:34 [AndyS]

zkim, kick EricP

14:32:38 [AndyS]

zakim, kick EricP

14:32:38 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'kick EricP', AndyS

14:34:56 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:35:24 [Zakim]

+Simon_Raboczi

14:35:28 [SimonR]

Woot.

14:36:45 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=35463

14:37:30 [LeeF]

iv_an_ru, are you around?

14:38:20 [AndyS]

Scribe: AndyS

14:38:52 [iv_an_ru]

Hello LeeF

14:39:20 [LeeF]

iv_an_ru, I see that you've joined the working group - would you like to / be able to call in to the telecon that's beginning now?

14:39:31 [ericP]

Fri, 29 Dec 2006 06:36:01 +0000: OpenLink Software Inc. has nominated Ivan Mikhailov to RDF Data Access Working Group

14:39:40 [AndyS]

Minutes of last time.

14:39:41 [ericP]

mid: E1H0BLV-0002Sb-Te@wiggum.w3.org

14:39:42 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/att-0005/simon-RDF_DAWG_Weekly_--_2_Jan_2007.html#ActionSummary

14:39:47 [iv_an_ru]

I'm trying

14:40:16 [AndyS]

Seconds by AndyS

14:40:19 [AndyS]

Seconded by AndyS

14:40:31 [AndyS]

Meet next time: in one week's time

14:40:44 [iv_an_ru]

Start w/o me

14:41:25 [Zakim]

+ +7.383.345.aaaa

14:42:06 [iv_an_ru]

I can hear :)

14:42:16 [ericP]

RRSAgent, help

14:42:52 [AndyS]

ScribeNext: Souri?

14:43:08 [sdas2]

sure, I'll try

14:43:11 [AndyS]

Ivan: Intro

14:43:25 [AndyS]

... XSLT and XQuery impl experience

14:43:40 [AndyS]

... implementing SPARQL on SQL for Virtuoso

14:44:01 [AndyS]

LeeF: Please send intro email to DAWG list for linking

14:45:02 [AndyS]

ScribeNext: Souri

14:45:09 [LeeF]

agenda?

14:45:19 [LeeF]

zakim, move to next agendum

14:45:19 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]

14:45:21 [AndyS]

LeeF: Any Comments on agenda?

14:45:26 [LeeF]

zakim, move to next agendum

14:45:26 [Zakim]

agendum 1 was just opened, LeeF

14:45:29 [AndyS]

all: (silence)

14:45:30 [LeeF]

zakim, move to agendum 2

14:45:30 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF]

14:46:01 [AndyS]

ACTION: LeeF to update the issues list marking punction syntax [DONE]

14:46:04 [AndyS]

DONE

14:46:19 [AndyS]

ACTION: Souri to review rq24

14:46:20 [AndyS]

DONE

14:46:34 [AndyS]

ACTION: ericP to seek clarification from Bob McG

14:46:36 [AndyS]

DONE

14:47:03 [AndyS]

ACTION: LeeF to close formsOfDistinct issue

14:47:04 [AndyS]

DONE

14:47:35 [AndyS]

ACTION: EricP to sort out some string literal thing for the operator table

14:47:37 [AndyS]

DONE

14:47:52 [AndyS]

ACTION: Jeen to get started setting up new test directory

14:47:53 [AndyS]

DONE

14:48:02 [AndyS]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put

14:48:04 [AndyS]

CONTINUES

14:48:21 [AndyS]

ACTION: PatH to change the entailment section around to talk about SPARQL first, then more general conditions in a normative appendix

14:48:25 [AndyS]

CONTINUES

14:48:34 [AndyS]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests

14:48:37 [AndyS]

CONTINUES

14:48:44 [LeeF]

Jeen test suite: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0007.html

14:48:49 [LeeF]

zakim, move to next agendum

14:48:49 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]

14:48:54 [LeeF]

zakim, move to agendum 3

14:48:54 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Test suite" taken up [from LeeF]

14:49:28 [AndyS]

Jeen has committed some tests and super manifests

14:49:43 [AndyS]

... synatx tests and triple pattern tests

14:49:55 [AndyS]

s/synatx/syntax/g

14:50:26 [AndyS]

AndyS (email) There is a more recent set of syntax test.

14:51:18 [AndyS]

LeeF: request to review Jeen's first test batch.

14:51:41 [AndyS]

(no volunteers on the phone)

14:52:07 [AndyS]

... this agenda item will become a standing "test approval" slot.

14:52:08 [iv_an_ru]

I can try to review during the weekend.

14:52:15 [LeeF]

iv_an_ru, that would be great

14:52:55 [AndyS]

EricP: suggestion to make syntax only cover stuff not covered elsewhere

14:53:08 [AndyS]

... because there is overlap.

14:53:49 [AndyS]

LeeF: can see value in having broad coverage in syntax tests (e.g. parser writers)

14:55:05 [AndyS]

q+ to ask about parser writers

14:55:18 [LeeF]

ack AndyS

14:55:19 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask about parser writers

14:55:35 [SimonR]

+q comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax

14:55:57 [SimonR]

+q to comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax

14:56:18 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball)

14:57:28 [iv_an_ru]

can see value in having two outputs per every syntax test: list of parsed lexems plus the rest as usual.

14:57:54 [LeeF]

ack SimonR

14:57:54 [Zakim]

SimonR, you wanted to comment about syntax testing and abstract syntax

14:58:30 [AndyS]

AndyS: advocates having a separate set of tests for syntax and not ask implementers to extract tests themselves.

14:59:14 [ericP]

yacker kinda gives us an "abstract" syntax, but it's ugly

14:59:29 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=PREFIX+my%3A+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2F%3E+ASK+%7B+my%3Afoo+my%3A5.5+%7D&action=validate+text yacker "abstract syntax"

15:00:21 [AndyS]

http://sparql.org/validator?query=PREFIX+books%3A+++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.org%2Fbook%2F%3E%0D%0APREFIX+dc%3A++++++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Fdc%2Felements%2F1.1%2F%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ASELECT+%3Fbook+%3Ftitle%0D%0AWHERE%0D%0A+++%7B+%3Fbook+dc%3Atitle+%3Ftitle+%7D&languageSyntax=SPARQL&outputFormat=prefix&linenumbers=true

15:01:14 [AndyS]

SimonR: (discusses a formalized abstract representation of a syntax tree)

15:02:24 [ericP]

q+ to say if the semantics pass, we're happy with whatever abstract syntax the impl used

15:02:25 [SimonR]

Okay, maybe I'll type instead.

15:03:00 [SimonR]

I'm suggesting that we really do have to standardize a single abstract syntax if the language is going to be unambiguous.

15:03:35 [AndyS]

AndyS: The purpose is to get implementation reports

15:03:46 [AndyS]

... if a test fails, we don't know why

15:03:56 [AndyS]

EricP: does it matter why they fail?

15:04:32 [AndyS]

AndyS: Good to know why a test fails for feedback

15:05:16 [iv_an_ru]

How can I use an SPARQL abstract syntax if I compile a mix of SPARQL and SQL? I have more nodes in my tree than it is expected for plain SPARQL, ditto more properties.

15:05:17 [AndyS]

EricP: burden having more tests because need tracking

15:05:33 [SimonR]

Both RDF/XML and NTriples are concrete syntaxes, but the tests that convert between the two do demonstrate that you're parsing the right abstract syntax. We don't quite have an equivalent to NTriples.

15:07:45 [LeeF]

AndyS: I have a large test suite that I use against the syntax tests for developing the grammar -- it would be a burden on me to switch to using the evaluation tests to test the grammar

15:08:18 [LeeF]

q?

15:10:28 [ericP]

ack me

15:10:28 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to say if the semantics pass, we're happy with whatever abstract syntax the impl used

15:11:50 [AndyS]

LeeF: Will bring this to Jeen's attention.

15:11:56 [LeeF]

zakim, move to agendum 4

15:11:56 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Path SPARQL and accessingCollections" taken up [from LeeF]

15:12:13 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2007Jan/0001.html

15:12:21 [SimonR]

So it's slightly different from the RDF case, which is standardized at the abstract syntax level with multiple concrete syntaxes. SPARQL is standardized at the concrete syntax level.

15:13:00 [DanC]

DanC has joined #dawg

15:13:10 [Zakim]

+DanC

15:13:23 [LeeF]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#accessingCollections

15:14:07 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T15-13-23

15:14:09 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0014.html

15:15:30 [AndyS]

LeeF: feedback received from Steve and Kendall: both not in favour

15:15:46 [AndyS]

LeeF: asked for opinions from the WG

15:15:48 [sdas2]

This is an important requirement, but requires careful thinking and I'd be leaning towards postponing it.

15:16:36 [AndyS]

DanC: prompted by OWL1.1 which is only just being setup - SPARQL 1.1 is 5year away.

15:16:45 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:16:45 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Souri_Das, LeeF, AndyS, EricP, Simon_Raboczi, +7.383.345.aaaa, DanC

15:17:40 [AndyS]

Souri: important requirement but not trivial Oracle concerned about the delay.

15:17:55 [LeeF]

zakim, aaaa is iv_an_ru

15:17:55 [Zakim]

+iv_an_ru; got it

15:17:56 [iv_an_ru]

We (= OpenLink) can't imlement path expressions both easily and effeciently :(

15:18:08 [AndyS]

EricP: conservative - nervous of the time taken

15:18:45 [SimonR]

I'm in favor of postponing.

15:18:45 [AndyS]

SimonR: don't want to precude future solutions

15:19:08 [AndyS]

zakim, aaaa is iv_an_ru

15:19:08 [Zakim]

sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

15:19:37 [AndyS]

Ivan: can't implement easily and efficiently

15:19:57 [SimonR]

the only really important thing is that we don't *preclude* any future solutions, and I think the new information actually supports the idea that we're not ruling out future extension to solve the problem.

15:20:03 [AndyS]

... datalog input on recursion may be informative.

15:20:56 [AndyS]

... no really good news here though

15:21:23 [AndyS]

... recursion will be coming along sometime but not just yet.

15:21:28 [SimonR]

zakim, mute me

15:21:28 [Zakim]

Simon_Raboczi should now be muted

15:21:44 [AndyS]

... will have to ignore feature for 6 months

15:22:11 [AndyS]

q+ to comment on this

15:22:18 [AndyS]

ack andys

15:22:18 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to comment on this

15:22:37 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

15:22:43 [SimonR]

AndyS: (1) Are we really talking about just collections, or the whole general issue of regexps?

15:22:44 [LeeF]

AndyS: 1) are we really talking about just collections or the whole mechanism of regular expression paths?

15:22:55 [SimonR]

AndyS: 2) What are the alternatives?

15:23:14 [DanC]

(indeed, Andy's ordering point is a user requirement that no design I know of meets.)

15:23:30 [SimonR]

AndyS: 3) It's not just accessing collections, it's also ordering. Sometimes collections are used as closed sets, sometimes as lists -- in which case, order is important.

15:23:49 [AndyS]

ARQ gives ordering guarantees - unless you then sort it!

15:24:33 [AndyS]

HP is not opposed to this issue. Also concerned with the size of the WG and energy leaking out.

15:25:31 [LeeF]

zakim, move to agendum 5

15:25:31 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "rq24/rq25 status" taken up [from LeeF]

15:25:50 [ericP]

DanC, one could infer more than a magic predicate, but actually build a structure (<foo>) ==> [ :hasOrderedMember [ :member <Foo> ; :ordinal 0 ] ]

15:26:21 [SimonR]

AndyS: There are a number of features on the postponed list. It would seem a good idea to prioritize this list so we can reopen them in the best order.

15:26:40 [ericP]

DanC, also, our result set is order-able so i guess we can write special semantics that access order directly

15:26:55 [DanC]

"write special semantics" <- there be dragons.

15:27:08 [AndyS]

+1

15:27:15 [ericP]

yeah, that's what i did in algae so i could walk through manifests

15:27:26 [ericP]

hasn't been used elsewhere, though

15:27:26 [AndyS]

Proposed to adjourn

15:27:34 [ericP]

ADJOURN

15:27:35 [AndyS]

Seconded: DanC

15:27:41 [SimonR]

Adjourned at 15:27 Z.

15:27:53 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:27:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-minutes.html AndyS

15:28:15 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please make logs world-accessible

15:28:21 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please make logs world

15:28:28 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please make minutes world

15:28:28 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:29:28 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please leave us

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-actions.rdf :

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to update the issues list marking punction syntax [DONE] [1]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-01

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Souri to review rq24 [2]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-19

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ericP to seek clarification from Bob McG [3]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-34

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to close formsOfDistinct issue [4]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-03

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to sort out some string literal thing for the operator table [5]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-35

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeen to get started setting up new test directory [6]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-47-52

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put [7]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-02

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: PatH to change the entailment section around to talk about SPARQL first, then more general conditions in a normative appendix [8]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-21

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the existing tests [9]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-48-34

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: LeeF to check if SteveH can eyeball Jeen's first group of tests pre-WG approval (LeeF and iv_an_ru will also try to eyeball) [10]

15:29:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/09-dawg-irc#T14-56-18