IRC log of ws-desc on 2006-12-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-irc
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ACTION: Jonathan to reference the Versioning document in the WSDL Primer
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ACTION: Jonathan to respond to Ashok Malhotra/WS-Policy on WSDL 1.1 component indicators
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jonathan: Note that I have a draft [proposal] w.r.t. this area - assume that we will publish this, but if you have any comments or feedback, please provide to the group
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jonathan: MTOM description - skip over this for today's telcon
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monica: Comment - have you considered if more WG members were present so as to publish comments on the MTOM policy to the WSP WG>
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s/>/?/
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monica: Interested in the area of simplified policies
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jonathan: Am interested in whether profiled policies is the way to go
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monica: Is this Canon's or a broader domain concern?
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jonathan: Plausible that one can impl a comformant policy process that is fairly straightforward - is MTOM in use, and do I support MTOM - is this tractable in a constrained device? If those two questions can be answered then I don't see the need for profiles
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jonathan: issues
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jonathan: CR108
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jonathan: amy and roberto sent emails indicating no equivalence
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jonathan: sent an email with his equiv analysis
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arthur: roberto showed we don't have a constraint so that assertion 0014 implies 0006
16:27:36 [scribe]
arthur: with input element, must be at least one placeholder message for the input message, and with output element, must be at least one placeholder message for the output message
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arthur: should explicitly place document level constraints; with this i'm fine with eliminating 006
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scribe: charlton
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amy: I think we're close to similar things, with different vocabularies :-); I'm comfortable with 006 being removed
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arthur: I want to add four new assertions - w.r.t. the placeholder message for direction and type
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amy: Why doesn't 2.10.1 cover that?
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arthur: Addresses it at the component model
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amy: You will eventually fail in any case
16:31:40 [scribe]
arthur: At binding level can't have multiple binding messages for a single interface message reference; I placed a counterexample where 2.10.1 would fail even though the assertions would pass
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arthur: 2.10 only discussues bindings and interfaces
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amy: In 2.10.1, it is stated that interface message is require - must create the property - and must bind them uniquely per the assertion.
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arthur: Not saying change 2.10 at XML level
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amy: Not suggesting that - but what happens is that will have an error if the binding doesn't find something that it matches
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amy: So what do we gain from adding the 4 assertions?
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arthur: These 4 are document level assertions
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arthur: Input and output don't have direct correspondents at component level - we can check them at the document level
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jonathan: New assertions - if we add them at the interface, we're ok?
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arthur: Yes
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arthur: One input in the MEP - at the binding level, can put in two input elements - that would be fine w.r.t. constraint on message level attribute - but would violate 2.10.1
16:37:08 [scribe]
amy: Because it happens in the binding, yes. But my question is I don't see why assertions on the markup are not redundant
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arthur: Markup assertions can violate component model assertions
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amy: But the component assertions will catch these [eventually]
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amy: I don't think that these additonal 4 assertions will change the set of documents that will fail
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arthur: You can't even evaluate 2.10 until you construct the component model
16:40:29 [Zakim]
-Paul_Downey
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amy: I understand what Arthur want's but don't think the 4 assertions will achieve that
16:45:05 [Zakim]
-Gilbert_Pilz
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arthur: Ok, I do think they are redundant - but the message you get may be hard to understand, so these assertions are general
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arthur: W/o message label, would be 0012 - but with other 4 assertions would get a clearer error message for each case
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amy: Should we ask Lawrence Mandel for some feedback on the 4 assertions?
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amy: We have agreed to remove assertion 006 (and assertion 004)
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jonathan: Yes
16:47:39 [Zakim]
+Gilbert_Pilz
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arthur: If only one message label in each direction, don't need to specify it....
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amy: I don't think there's as big an issue at it seems - if we can get by without adding assertions
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jonathan: Should we add assertions that, although providing a better error message, are effectively duplicates?
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amy: If we didn't add these 4 assertions, would there still be a violation in some way>
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s/>/?/
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arthur: Some assertions don't even make sense if others are not satisfied - some are pre-conditions for others
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arthur: Pre-supposition of assertions - implicit pre-conditions
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amy: Agreed - ideally in my opinion the spec w/b such that an error would cause one and only one assertion to fail
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jonathan: Do we need another proposal for these assertions with more detail>
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s/>/?/
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arthur: You can take my note as a recommendation to add the 4 new assertions
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arthur: Would prefer clear error messages that map to something in the WSDL spec when writing a doc
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jonathan: Let's see if we can close CR108 by removing assertions 006 and 004
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jonathan: Would like to raise a new issue on adding Arthur's 4 new assertions - start email thread on this discussion
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jonathan: No objections
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Resolution for CR008 - remove assertions 006 and 004
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ACTION: Jonathan to raise new issue adding 4 new assertions as per Arthur's note
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jonathan: Proposal - in-only would raise a 202, robust in-only a 204. XMLP did not have a strong opinion on this for HTTP (although they are definitely not doing this for SOAP)
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TOPIC: CR111
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jonathan: Issue is about whether we should say what the HTTP return code is for in-only and robust in-only cases
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jonathan: Proposal from last week: 202 for in-only and 204 for robust-in-only
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jonathan: plh checked with XMLP WG to see if they had a visceral reaction - they had none
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jonathan: Any reason anyone would object to using 202/204.
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arthur: Think we need this
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charlton: Don't see a problem with it
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jonathan: Any objections to adding this?
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None
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Resolution: Accept proposal to use 202 and 204 for in-only and robust in-only MEPs in HTTP binding
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TOPIC: CR114
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jonathan: What would you like to see added here, Youenn?
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youenn: Want mapping for robust in-only
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(section 5.10.4)
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jonathan: You want a section 5.10.? mapping for in-only and robust in-only to SOAP MEPs
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jonathan: Can this be done - for in-only it makes no sense at all
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youenn: No, but for robust in-only yes
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youenn: Makes sense to map in-only and robust in-only MEPs to SOAP response MEP
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youenn: I would like this specified
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jonathan: Adding paragraph, for instance, to 5.10.4.1 to talk about in-only and robust in-only
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jonathan: Would hope this w/b straightforward
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jonathan: Add desc how to bind in-only and robust in-only WSDL MEPs to SOAP response MEP, taking advantage of 202 in PER
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jonathan: Can we close the issue today?
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Resolution: Close CR114 as per Youenn's proposal
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TOPIC: CR115
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http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/issues.html#CR115
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arthur: Looks fine
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arthur: Think point is that there are two independent assertions, but this is an ex of how one assertion only makes sense when the other is satisfied
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jonathan: In other words, the target namespaces must match
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jonathan: Proposal to adopt Lawrence Mandel's resolution
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No objections
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Resolution: Close CR115 with Lawrence Mandel's proposal
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TOPIC: CR116
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jonathan: Constructing request IRI - HTTP location template
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http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/issues.html#CR116
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arthur: We shouldn't recycle the list or throw a runtime error
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phillipe: No value m/b diff from empty string
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arthur: prefer empty string option
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arthur: That's how http works - if have form, input field, and no value - it shows up as an empty string
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phillipe: Don't like repeating value option
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arthur: Neither do i
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jonathan: And nice for us not to force runtime errors
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jonathan: Proposal - should have schema s/t have enough elements to address token names in template, but if not, use empty string for any elements that remain
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arthur: Think a SHOULD for the schema w.r.t. elements and templates would be in order
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arthur: Best practise that things match
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jonathan: Existing assertion is a runtime check
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arthur: Can check [otherwise]
17:27:21 [Jonathan]
Proposal:
17:27:52 [Jonathan]
1) Rewrite HTTPSerialization-5073 to talk about types rather than instances.
17:28:05 [Jonathan]
2) Say each token SHOULD match something in the instance.
17:28:23 [Jonathan]
3) If there is no match, replace the token with the empty string.
17:28:45 [Jonathan]
4) Repeated tokens are replaced by repeated elements in order.
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s/to SOAP response MEP/to SOAP request response MEP
17:30:16 [Jonathan]
4) A token may appear more than once, in which case it is replaced by corresponding repeated elements in the instance.
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jonathan: Any objs to closing CR116 with this resolution
17:31:30 [Zakim]
-Charlton_Barreto
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Resolution: Adopt Jonathan's Proposal as resolution to CR116
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-Arthur
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-TonyR
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-Plh
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-Canon
17:31:39 [Zakim]
-Amelia_Lewis
17:31:39 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, set log world
17:31:43 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
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Adjourn meeting
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-Jonathan_Marsh
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17:32:04 [TonyR]
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Meeting: WS Description WG telcon
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Chair: Jonathan
17:32:19 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
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Scribe: Charlton
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zakim, who was on the call?
17:33:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, scribe.
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zakim, who's on the call?
17:33:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Allen, m2, Gilbert_Pilz
17:33:29 [Jonathan]
s/jonathan: CR108/Topic: CR108
17:34:09 [Jonathan]
yes. I'll add that.
17:34:12 [Jonathan]
Thanks for scribing!
17:34:22 [scribe]
you're welcome
17:34:56 [Zakim]
-Allen
17:36:14 [charlton]
s/Resolution:/RESOLUTION:/
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-m2
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disconnecting the lone participant, Gilbert_Pilz, in WS_DescWG()11:00AM
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WS_DescWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Gilbert_Pilz, Amelia_Lewis, Jonathan_Marsh, Plh, Charlton_Barreto, TonyR, Allen, Arthur, Paul_Downey, Canon, m2
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18:59:55 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
19:02:21 [Jonathan]
i/ACTION: Jonathan to reference the/Topic: Approval of last week's minutes/
19:02:33 [Jonathan]
i/ACTION: Jonathan to reference the/RESOLUTION: approved./
19:02:48 [Jonathan]
i/ACTION: Jonathan to reference the/Topic: Action Item Review/
19:02:56 [Jonathan]
i/ACTION: Jonathan to reference the/Topic: Administrivia/
19:03:11 [Jonathan]
i/ACTION: Jonathan to reference the/pauld: schema 1.1 - compatibility between it and 1.0 - comment on making that more clear/
19:04:14 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:04:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
19:19:47 [Jonathan]
Jonathan has joined #ws-desc
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s/Resolution:/RESOLUTION:/g
19:20:32 [Jonathan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
20:41:51 [Zakim]
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21:16:49 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, bye
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-actions.rdf :
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jonathan to reference the Versioning document in the WSDL Primer [1]
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-irc#T16-19-27
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ACTION: Jonathan to respond to Ashok Malhotra/WS-Policy on WSDL 1.1 component indicators [2]
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-irc#T16-19-36
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jonathan to raise new issue adding 4 new assertions as per Arthur's note [3]
21:16:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/21-ws-desc-irc#T16-55-36