15:46:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:46:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-rif-irc
15:46:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rif
15:48:12 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 19 Dec RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0094.html
15:48:41 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:48:41 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:48:52 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 19 Dec 06
15:49:00 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
15:49:00 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0094.html
15:49:25 <ChrisW> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf
15:49:25 <Zakim> working on it, ChrisW
15:49:27 <Zakim> agenda+ Admin' [ChrisW]
15:49:28 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:49:29 <Zakim> agenda+ F2F [ChrisW]
15:49:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:49:31 <Zakim> agenda+ Liason [ChrisW]
15:49:32 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:49:33 <Zakim> agenda+ Technical Design [ChrisW]
15:49:34 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:49:36 <Zakim> agenda+ RIF-RAF [ChrisW]
15:49:38 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
15:49:39 <Zakim> agenda+ UCR [ChrisW]
15:49:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
15:49:42 <Zakim> agenda+ AOB [ChrisW]
15:49:44 <Zakim> agendum 7 added
15:49:46 <Zakim> done reading agenda, ChrisW
15:49:54 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
15:49:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:50:01 <ChrisW> agenda+ admin
15:50:14 <ChrisW> agenda + F2F
15:50:22 <ChrisW> agenda + Liason
15:50:29 <ChrisW> agenda + Technical Design
15:50:36 <ChrisW> agenda + UC&R
15:50:42 <ChrisW> agenda + RIFRAF
15:50:46 <ChrisW> agenda + AOB
15:51:19 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:54:44 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:54:51 <Harold> Sandro, is there a general escape character in MoinMoin? I wanted insert  a double '^' and got one right with '^^^^^', but not two.
15:56:15 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:57:12 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:14 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:57:22 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:57:43 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:57:51 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:57:51 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:58:13 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, what is the code?
15:58:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), FrankMcCabe
15:58:24 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
15:58:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:58:28 <FRancois> FRancois has joined #rif
15:58:44 <csma> leora, would you scribe, please?
15:58:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> okay
15:58:55 <sandro> Not that I know of, Harold.    But I'm a little rusty on MoinMoin markup, sorry.
15:58:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hold on just a second while I get on the phone
15:59:01 <csma> Thank you
15:59:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:12 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:59:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:14 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:59:14 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:59:23 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:59:25 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
16:00:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> Okay, I can scribe --- but I don't hear anything on the phone yet.
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
16:00:12 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
16:00:12 <Zakim> +??P37
16:00:20 <Zakim> +??P40
16:00:28 <csma> zakim, ??P40 is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:00:40 <Zakim> +josb
16:00:52 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
16:01:05 <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
16:01:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
16:01:24 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, FrankMcCabe, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols (muted), ??P37, csma, josb
16:01:38 <Zakim> +[LMU]
16:01:39 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
16:01:40 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:01:51 <PaulaP> zakim, [LMU] is temporarily me
16:01:52 <Zakim> +PaulaP; got it
16:01:53 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:02 <ChrisW> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:02:02 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:02:07 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
16:02:17 <FRancois> zakim, ??P37 is me.
16:02:19 <csma> ack csma
16:02:19 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:02:26 <Zakim> +FRancois; got it
16:02:30 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:02:40 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:02:51 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:02:51 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, FrankMcCabe, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols (muted), FRancois, csma, josb, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), PaulaP (muted), ChrisW,
16:02:54 <Zakim> ... MoZ, [IBM]
16:03:05 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
16:03:14 <ChrisW> scribenick LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:18 <ChrisW> scribenick: LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:19 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:03:19 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:03:27 <ChrisW> Scribe: Leora Morgenstern
16:03:36 <Zakim> +??P2
16:03:45 <pfps> zakim, ??P2 is me
16:03:45 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:04:12 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:04:13 <ChrisW> zakim, mute Francois
16:04:14 <Zakim> FRancois should now be muted
16:04:19 <csma> ack fran
16:04:48 <MoZ> q?
16:05:11 <josb_> josb_ has joined #rif
16:05:17 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:05:25 <FRancois> please mute me.
16:05:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Meeting for December 26th has been cancelled;
16:05:44 <sandro> zakim, who is muted?
16:05:44 <Zakim> I see Deborah_Nichols, FRancois, Allen_Ginsberg, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, PaulaP, StellaMitchell muted
16:05:53 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:05:57 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:05:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: am I identified as the scribe?
16:06:01 <polo> polo has joined #rif
16:06:44 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
16:06:45 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
16:06:52 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:06:54 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:07:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> ACTION 194 (on ChrisW) to update people with multiple actions has been closed.
16:07:20 <Zakim> +Axel_Polleres
16:07:37 <Zakim> +Giorgos_Stamou
16:07:46 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, FrankMcCabe, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols (muted), FRancois (muted), csma, josb, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), PaulaP (muted),
16:07:50 <Zakim> ... ChrisW, MoZ, StellaMitchell (muted), pfps, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer (muted), Axel_Polleres (muted), Giorgos_Stamou
16:07:51 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, Giorgos_Stamou is me
16:07:51 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
16:08:34 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 12/12 telecon
16:08:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> Minutes of December 12 have been accepted
16:09:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Amendment to agenda: We will not discuss issue 12, since Dave (Reynolds) is not here.
16:09:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> That will be moved to the next meting.
16:09:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/meeting/meting
16:09:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> II. Face-to-face meetings:
16:09:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> ACTION 201 on Sandro to set up web page for registration: continued
16:10:01 <Allen> no
16:11:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> III: Liaison: No actions; no news
16:11:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> IV: Technical Design
16:11:30 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
16:11:30 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: any discussion on use of constraints in RIF?
16:13:01 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:13:01 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:13:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: (to Harold and Michael) Did Hassan's paper clear up the confusion
16:13:37 <Polo> Polo has joined #rif
16:13:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: little confusion about CLPs
16:14:25 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:14:25 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:14:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> cmsa: Alex and Dave were concerned about CLPs, but they are not present at this call.
16:14:31 <Hassan> q+
16:14:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Continuing to slotted syntax ...
16:14:53 <csma> ack hassan
16:15:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> hassan: Not much contention on uses of constraints.
16:15:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> hassan: idea is not to impose the clp scheme, but the idea of using constraints to abstract data
16:16:51 <Hassan> q-
16:16:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> hassan: two orthogonal dismensions: rules, and data they work on
16:17:49 <igor> igor has joined #rif
16:18:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> cmsa: connection to black boxes discussed at f2f?
16:18:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: can be handled by the same mechanism
16:18:43 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:18:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/csma/cmsa/
16:19:05 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:19:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:19:40 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
16:19:50 <igor> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:19:50 <Zakim> +igor; got it
16:20:02 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:20:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: constraints used for pattern matching, is the mechanism  for binding variables
16:20:29 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:20:29 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:20:35 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:20:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: isn't using too much unsspecified and relying on  external calls  a form of cheating?
16:21:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: No --- won't be unspecified
16:21:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/unspecified/unsspecified/
16:21:47 <GaryHallmark> q+ to ask whether constraints == prolog builtins
16:22:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: objection is to phrase "external call"
16:22:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: But can use  a logical system for solving constraints
16:23:36 <Harold> Basic semantics of an external call: map current substitution (binding environment) to a new substitution (indicating success) or to failure.
16:23:43 <FrankMcCabe> +q
16:23:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: unifying is the external call: external to CLP engine
16:23:45 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:24:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: taking the "external call" too literally, It just means that two things are independent.
16:24:37 <csma> q?
16:24:51 <Harold> q+
16:24:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: to avoid confusion, change term "external call"
16:25:00 <csma> ack michael
16:25:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> Michael: question about extensibility of CLP schema
16:25:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Michael: (to Hassan): how does CLP scheme extend to negation as failure, for example?
16:26:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: Can be extended to handle NAF
16:26:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: extension to production rules?
16:26:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: hard to extend to production rules --- don't have complete operational semantics
16:27:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: if it can be expressed in LP, can be expressed in CLP
16:27:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Michael: But: is there a model-theoretic characterization for constraint stable models as there is for stable models in LP?
16:28:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> Michael: want stable semantics or well-founded semantics for CLP.
16:28:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: Has to look it up to formalize question, see if it has been addressed, see if satisfies Michael's requirements
16:29:43 <csma> q?
16:29:46 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:29:49 <csma> ack gary
16:29:49 <Zakim> GaryHallmark, you wanted to ask whether constraints == prolog builtins
16:29:52 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
16:29:53 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:29:53 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:30:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> Gary: are Prolog built ins = constraints? predicates?
16:30:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: Prolog built ins are black boxes; can be viewed as contraints
16:31:07 <igor> in Prolog, term unification=constraints
16:31:10 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:32:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: if one of the & (?) in the RIF is doing Prolog, and another is doing something else, what do we have / where do we stand?
16:33:59 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, FrankMcCabe, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols (muted), FRancois (muted), csma, josb, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci, PaulaP (muted), ChrisW,
16:34:03 <Zakim> ... MoZ, StellaMitchell (muted), pfps, Sandro, MichaelKifer (muted), Axel_Polleres (muted), GiorgosStoilos, Gary_Hallmark, igor (muted), Mike_Dean
16:34:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> hassan: encoder makes decision
16:35:55 <Harold> Christian, we could say that an "external call" need not be a "foreign call": "External" in the sense of "normally independent of RIF", although in special cases it can coincide with RIF. "Foreign" in the sense of "software entirely outside of RIF".
16:36:41 <ChrisW> Polo, who are you?
16:38:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: how do you decide what goes into constraints and what goes into conditions, if your langauge doesn't have this distinction?
16:39:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: question is not just for production rules.
16:39:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Gary: Prolog built-ins can have side effects; in production rules, these would have to be implmented in action part.
16:40:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: in the scheme, putting things on the right does not say anything about execution order.
16:40:53 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
16:40:57 <Harold> Gary is referring to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE/Rules/Horn, SYNTAX, Example 3b'.
16:41:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: Gary's example is outside the scheme (check on this)
16:41:45 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:41:53 <ChrisW> uh oh
16:42:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:42:46 <ChrisW> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:42:46 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:43:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: but how would implementer know what to do for an arbitrary rule language?
16:44:46 <csma> q?
16:44:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: normative syntax should be constraint syntax;
16:45:28 <FRancois> Yes, it is.
16:45:29 <AxelPolleres> hmmm.
16:45:37 <Hassan> hmmm?
16:45:44 <csma> ack frankmc
16:46:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: it's not that clear; some people use rules to implement constraints.
16:46:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> Distinction between normal rules and constraint rule can be subtle.
16:46:28 <AxelPolleres> I am still unclear where the line between built-ins and constraints lies, but I was a bit distracted, for a moment, sorry.
16:47:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: distinction between what's in constraints and what's in rules is up to author.
16:47:31 <Harold> Frank and Hassan, one clear criterion for relations that should go into constraint calls would be decidability. Only decidable relations should become constraints.
16:47:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: Most often, people have a set of predicates that they choose to call contraints.
16:47:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: That's exactly my point!
16:49:32 <GaryHallmark> a Java method can be very fast at solving some kind of constraints, but it only works if some variables are bound.  Is this allowed?
16:50:25 <Harold> (Not all decidable relations would need to become constraints, so *efficient* decidability could be a more strict criterion.)
16:50:41 <csma> ack harold
16:51:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: whole issue of slotted vs positional arguments can be viewed in terms of constraints.
16:53:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: could have some predefined library of constraints: perhaps built-in libraries that comes with RIF.
16:53:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: Really likes Harold's idea.
16:53:28 <AxelPolleres> +1 to have a list of built-ins.
16:53:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: lots of discussion about which are the right built-ins.
16:53:44 <csma> q?
16:53:54 <AxelPolleres> can Xpath/Xquery functions be a starting point?
16:54:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma or ??: built ins would be on constraints, for efficiency reasons. (Check this.)
16:54:41 <ChrisW> Axel, that is a place for us to look, I think (Xpath/Xquery)
16:55:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: No need to change semantics for slots.
16:55:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: change change syntax to transform slots into positional arguments.
16:55:28 <GaryHallmark> URL?
16:55:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> (This is on wiki Core)
16:56:23 <csma> q?
16:56:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> positive conditions --- syntactic transformations
16:57:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: details about the transformation ...
16:57:45 <Hassan> Where is this on the wiki?
16:57:56 <csma> q?
16:57:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: all can be implemented nicely using Hassan's CLP
16:58:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE/Conditions/Positive
16:59:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: can you do the transformation in the other direction as well?
17:00:19 <FrankMcCabe> q+
17:00:43 <ChrisW> q+ to ask about exisitng system that may already use _|_
17:00:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold (to csma): yes
17:01:46 <Zakim> -MoZ
17:02:27 <csma> ack frankmc
17:02:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: confused about bottom element
17:02:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: slotted to positional; you would expect missing slots to map to any variable
17:03:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: yes, should map to top element
17:03:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold:  depends on semantics. minimalistic semantics: yes
17:03:29 <Hassan> Then what does bottom denote? It denotes constraint failure to me!
17:04:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: bottom denotes variable that doesn't bind to anything
17:04:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: no, that's not the semantics for bottom.
17:04:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: It's top, not bottom!
17:05:01 <FRancois> Sorry, friends, I must go. 
17:05:12 <Zakim> -FRancois
17:05:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: this is a very strange version of extensional records of functional programming
17:05:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: was suggested ?? years ago by ??? (check)
17:06:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: why do this? can be much more simply handled
17:06:10 <AxelPolleres> Can we wrap this up and move it to the list?
17:06:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: can't solve this now. Can Harold's version on wiki be modified?
17:08:52 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
17:09:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Point of Harold's document was that there be no rest variables (check this)
17:09:58 <PaulaP> I wish you relaxed holidays!
17:10:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: But this can be solved much more simply --- don't need extension variables
17:10:08 <PaulaP> bye
17:10:10 <PaulaP> PaulaP has left #rif
17:10:13 <Zakim> -PaulaP
17:10:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: (to Hassan) unclear about your position on signatures
17:12:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: yes, you do need signatures
17:12:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: for Hassan, signatures are a way of solving the problem
17:12:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: want to do this statically
17:13:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: don't want constraints in condition part
17:13:45 <FrankMcCabe> you can achieve the same effect by mapping f(a=1,b=2) to f/2(1,2)
17:14:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Hassan, please go to Harold's wiki page and suggest ways of modifying it.
17:14:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: my paper already explains it.
17:15:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: paper is not the same as a RIF document/proposal
17:15:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: all right, one more  try. Too much workload to persist in this.
17:16:02 <csma> q?
17:16:07 <ChrisW> q-
17:16:09 <csma> ack chrisw
17:16:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan: But I'm taking no new actions until January
17:16:13 <Harold> Right, "Point of Harold's document was that there be no rest variables (check this)": No rest variables (no 'subsumption' or 'open-slot' semantics) to avoid the problem we had after F2F4, namely that, e.g., p(a,b) would be 'equal' to p(a) through the shortcut of p{1->a,2->b} being equal to p{1->a}.
17:16:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: let's move to production rules
17:20:14 <ChrisW> q+
17:20:56 <csma> ack chrisw
17:20:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Gary: trying to clarify interaction with the rules system --- no straightforward way to transform LP rule to production system
17:21:38 <Hassan> As Harold wrote it in one email, transforming top-down to bottom-up rule evaluation
17:21:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Suggestion from Gary: pragmas in the translation. 
17:21:46 <Hassan> is done with Magic sets
17:22:32 <sandro> [ I'm deeply sorry -- I had to step out of the meeting there to handle an urgent personal matter. ]
17:22:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: pragmas related to RIF processing models?
17:22:40 <sandro> [ back now, though ]
17:22:45 <FrankMcCabe> q+
17:22:49 <AxelPolleres> MAgic sets are an optimization method for "emulating" top-down wthin bottom-up evaluation of rule sets
17:22:59 <Harold> I wonder about Francois' SATCHMO, ... experience here (top-down plus bottom-up).
17:23:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW (to csma): could be
17:23:13 <csma> ack frankmc
17:23:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: Does Chris mean that pragmas should capture operatoinal semantics of the rules?
17:23:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Has to think about this more
17:25:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: need examples
17:25:52 <AxelPolleres> -1 
17:26:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Frank: can't capture essence of rules if operational semantics is ignored.
17:26:12 <AxelPolleres> to that operational semantics is essential in all cases.
17:26:38 <AxelPolleres> q+
17:26:46 <csma> ack axelm
17:26:54 <csma> ack axel
17:26:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussion probably needs to be put back on mailing list.
17:27:46 <Hassan> Yes, but how many "pure" such language vs. "dirty" rule langues?
17:27:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: was disagreeing that operational semantics is always essentia. After all, one can have a model theoretic semantics
17:28:04 <csma> q?
17:28:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> ACTION 188 closed
17:29:56 <Zakim> -igor
17:30:01 <AxelPolleres> please post the URIs again in the minutes to these actions to have a hook here.
17:30:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> ACTIONS 156, 157, 159, 160 all continued
17:30:17 <AxelPolleres> bye
17:30:18 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
17:30:18 <Hassan> +1 to adjourn
17:30:19 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
17:30:21 <Zakim> -josb
17:30:22 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
17:30:24 <Zakim> -pfps
17:30:24 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
17:30:27 <Zakim> -Axel_Polleres
17:30:28 <Hassan> Happy many things
17:30:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/open
17:30:30 <Zakim> -Harold
17:30:32 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:30:37 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:30:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:30:37 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
17:30:38 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:30:38 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:30:40 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:31:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes public
17:31:33 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ChrisW.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:40 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
17:32:11 <ChrisW> Regrets: DaveReynolds, DavidHirtle, JeffPan, MarkusKrötzsch
17:33:20 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
17:34:02 <ChrisW> sandro?
17:41:25 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:41:28 <Zakim> -csma
17:41:29 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:41:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Harold, FrankMcCabe, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, csma, josb, Allen_Ginsberg, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, PaulaP, ChrisW, FRancois, MoZ, StellaMitchell, pfps, Sandro,
17:41:33 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, Axel_Polleres, GiorgosStoilos, igor, Mike_Dean
17:41:44 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:41:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
19:35:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif