IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-12-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:44:27 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc
- 14:44:32 [fsasaki]
- meeting: i18n core Working Group
- 14:44:34 [fsasaki]
- chair: Francois
- 14:44:38 [fsasaki]
- scribe: Felix
- 14:44:42 [fsasaki]
- scribeNick: fsasaki
- 14:44:49 [fsasaki]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Dec/0020.html
- 14:45:25 [fsasaki]
- regrets: Ienup
- 14:45:30 [fsasaki]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 14:51:04 [MickM]
- MickM has joined #i18ncore
- 14:59:23 [Zakim]
- I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
- 14:59:31 [Zakim]
- +Michael
- 15:00:27 [Zakim]
- -Michael
- 15:00:28 [Zakim]
- +Michael
- 15:00:29 [fyergeau]
- fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
- 15:00:30 [Zakim]
- +Felix
- 15:01:08 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:01:09 [fyergeau]
- zakim, [ is fyergeau
- 15:01:09 [Zakim]
- +fyergeau; got it
- 15:02:08 [r12a]
- r12a has joined #i18ncore
- 15:02:17 [r12a]
- zakim, dial richard
- 15:02:17 [Zakim]
- ok, r12a; the call is being made
- 15:02:18 [Zakim]
- +Richard
- 15:03:03 [r12a]
- zakim, who's here ?
- 15:03:03 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael, Felix, fyergeau, Richard
- 15:03:04 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see r12a, fyergeau, MickM, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
- 15:03:47 [fsasaki]
- topic: last meetings minutes
- 15:04:34 [fsasaki]
- approved
- 15:04:37 [fsasaki]
- topic: review of actions
- 15:04:57 [fsasaki]
- ACTION: all to give feedback on LTLI update (PENDING)
- 15:05:20 [fsasaki]
- ACTION: Felix to go back to schema people with our test ideas for XML Schema (DONE)
- 15:05:37 [fsasaki]
- ACTION: Felix to see what has to be updated on tutorial material for IDNA issues (DONE)
- 15:05:42 [fsasaki]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006OctDec/0045.html
- 15:07:29 [fsasaki]
- Felix: should we bring that to GEO?
- 15:07:58 [fsasaki]
- Richard: might be good to include the GEO folks in a separate mail
- 15:08:16 [fsasaki]
- .. on the proposal in general: what makes certain things invalid?
- 15:09:39 [r12a]
- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-alvestrand-idna-bidi-00.txt
- 15:09:48 [Zakim]
- +Karunesh_Arora
- 15:12:17 [fsasaki]
- francois: the RFC says that it must end with a strong RTL or LTR character
- 15:12:26 [fsasaki]
- .. a combining character is not possible, that is the issue
- 15:12:36 [fsasaki]
- richard: what about control characters?
- 15:12:48 [fsasaki]
- francois: don't found the word joiner in the draft
- 15:13:40 [vijay]
- vijay has joined #i18Ncore
- 15:13:41 [fsasaki]
- richard: the article tries to be very high level
- 15:13:52 [fsasaki]
- .. linking to an RFC is s.t. we would try to avoid
- 15:14:14 [fsasaki]
- francois: here it is even no RFC, but a draft which will expire
- 15:17:38 [fsasaki]
- (discussion on how to bring the information of the internet draft into i18n activity material)
- 15:19:00 [fsasaki]
- richard: have a short note in the article about "combining characters should not be at the end of a label" would to it, right?
- 15:19:03 [fsasaki]
- felix: yes
- 15:19:53 [fsasaki]
- richard: how about a blog entry about the detail? This is better than an article, since the issue is of temporal interest
- 15:19:58 [fsasaki]
- felix: fine with me
- 15:21:05 [fsasaki]
- francois: the IRI / IDN article needs to mention the issue
- 15:21:15 [fsasaki]
- .. also the pages on browsers
- 15:21:28 [fsasaki]
- richard: these pages have a section saying "does it work today?"
- 15:21:32 [fsasaki]
- .. these need an update
- 15:21:48 [fsasaki]
- francois: current status is: they have reanabled them and they have a white list
- 15:22:06 [fsasaki]
- .. so does it work? yes, but: there are restrictions (TLDs, RTL scripts)
- 15:22:17 [fsasaki]
- richard: yes, we could add s.t. in the article as well
- 15:22:26 [fsasaki]
- .. Michael, would you like to do s.t. like that?
- 15:22:33 [fsasaki]
- Michael: sure
- 15:23:00 [r12a]
- http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/#work
- 15:23:58 [fsasaki]
- action: Michael to propose an update to the section "does it work?" about domain names, see what needs to be sad these days
- 15:24:25 [fsasaki]
- action: Richard to add the alverstrand draft to the IRI / IDN article
- 15:24:39 [fsasaki]
- s/section/section in the IRI - IDN draft/
- 15:25:43 [fsasaki]
- action: Felix to prepare a text of a blog entry about the IRI / IDN issue in the alverstrand draft and send it Richard
- 15:26:23 [fsasaki]
- Richard: write it an news paper style, to help people
- 15:27:14 [fsasaki]
- action: Felix to update LTLI with "or its successor " statements (DONE)
- 15:27:27 [fsasaki]
- action: Francois to look after ISO locale related spec (DONE)
- 15:27:32 [fyergeau]
- ISO TR 14652
- 15:28:10 [fsasaki]
- francois: was later replaced by the Unicode CLDR
- 15:28:29 [fsasaki]
- .. it had many problems. But some linux systems made use of that data
- 15:28:41 [fsasaki]
- s/replaced/replaced (not officially, but effectively)/
- 15:29:22 [fsasaki]
- francois: may be worth mentioning in LTLI, just for completness
- 15:29:41 [fsasaki]
- action: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (PENDING)
- 15:29:59 [fsasaki]
- felix: might phone chris and ask him
- 15:30:02 [fsasaki]
- francois: yes
- 15:30:14 [fsasaki]
- action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING)
- 15:30:29 [fsasaki]
- action: Francois to have a look at issue 3698 and gather information on options for diacrictics in collations (PENDING)
- 15:30:52 [fsasaki]
- action: Francois to review InkML LC draft (DROPPED)
- 15:31:04 [fsasaki]
- richard: I reviewed InkML, we can discuss it today if possible
- 15:31:17 [fsasaki]
- action: Richard to find out what is the canonical URI for BCP47 (ONGOING)
- 15:32:07 [fsasaki]
- Francois: the IETF points to the RFC-Editor officially , so I'm not convinced by Martin's arguments
- 15:33:06 [fsasaki]
- topic: XML Schema tests (again)
- 15:35:12 [fsasaki]
- (Felix summarizes the discussion)
- 15:35:34 [fsasaki]
- Francois: we had sad that a test for an attribute typed as anyURI would be valuable
- 15:36:54 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 15:37:17 [fyergeau]
- zakim, ? is MarkDavis
- 15:37:17 [Zakim]
- +MarkDavis; got it
- 15:37:53 [fsasaki]
- francois: we should go back to them and insist
- 15:37:57 [fsasaki]
- felix: agree
- 15:38:31 [fsasaki]
- francois: one IRI in the test suite to verify anyURI would be good
- 15:38:43 [fsasaki]
- action: Felix to go back to XML Schema people with WG reply on IRI tests
- 15:39:07 [fsasaki]
- topic: LTLI update
- 15:41:20 [fsasaki]
- (Felix gives a summary of last week's discussion)
- 15:42:01 [fsasaki]
- Francois: the TAG document uses "best practices" as "normative statements"
- 15:42:14 [fsasaki]
- .. they just go on and say "this is a good practice"
- 15:42:23 [fsasaki]
- .. we could do the same thing by removing section 6
- 15:42:44 [fsasaki]
- .. at http://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags/#sec-locale-vs-language
- 15:43:25 [fsasaki]
- .. we could remove that section and maybe also sec. 5, or rewrite it
- 15:43:47 [fsasaki]
- Mark: what in sec. 6 should not be normative?
- 15:44:15 [fsasaki]
- Francois: statement 1 "Specifications that make use of language tags or locale values MUST meet the conformance criteria defined for "well-formed" processors, as defined in sec. 2.2.9 of [RFC 4646]."
- 15:44:29 [fsasaki]
- Mark: well-formed is just the syntax
- 15:45:43 [fsasaki]
- Francois: we want to say "refer to BCP 47"
- 15:45:51 [fsasaki]
- Mark: there is a value in statement no. 2
- 15:46:02 [fsasaki]
- .. there are circumstances where you don't want to validate values
- 15:46:12 [fsasaki]
- .. if s..t comes from a trusted source
- 15:46:21 [fsasaki]
- .. it is unlikely, but it could happen
- 15:46:56 [fsasaki]
- francois: RFC 4646 and 4647: don't these documents discuss such things?
- 15:47:12 [fsasaki]
- Mark: these docments describe what it means to be valid / well-formed
- 15:47:58 [fsasaki]
- .. the wording in sec. 6 of LTLI is nice, it does not say you have to validate
- 15:48:45 [fsasaki]
- .. the statements 1 and 2 are useful
- 15:49:08 [fsasaki]
- s/nice,/nice; RFC 4646/
- 15:49:17 [fsasaki]
- Mark: no 1 in particular is very useful
- 15:49:32 [fsasaki]
- .. esp. for other w3c specs
- 15:49:56 [fsasaki]
- .. no. 2 is slightly less valuable, because it is like saying "I conform to RFC 4646"
- 15:50:17 [fsasaki]
- Francois: we want to tell spec writers that they have to use whose definitions from RFC 4646
- 15:50:25 [fsasaki]
- .. were are going for validity, Mark?
- 15:50:32 [fsasaki]
- Mark: for validity, you check the registry
- 15:50:37 [fsasaki]
- .. you make a copy of the registry
- 15:51:21 [fsasaki]
- .. checking against a list of subtags
- 15:52:09 [fsasaki]
- Francois: were do you want to place the obligation to check validity or well-formedness?
- 15:52:45 [fsasaki]
- .. take e.g. xml:lang? XML Core WG discussed what validation should be done for xml:lang
- 15:53:03 [fsasaki]
- .. the parser does not do anything to language tags except passing it to the application
- 15:53:13 [fsasaki]
- Mark: there is a backwards compatibility issue here
- 15:53:41 [fsasaki]
- .. the new syntax in RFC 4646 is narrower than RFC 3066
- 15:53:58 [fsasaki]
- Francois: even the narrow syntax of RFC 3066 was removed from the xml spec?
- 15:54:07 [fsasaki]
- s/spec?/spec/
- 15:54:29 [fsasaki]
- Francois: in the HTTP protocol: should an HTTP receiver check the well-formedness of tag?
- 15:54:46 [fsasaki]
- Mark: there is a lot of crap in these area, we did a lot of tests
- 15:55:07 [fsasaki]
- .. e.g. accept-lang can contain a word like "spanish" or complete rubbish
- 15:55:17 [fsasaki]
- .. you could say "XML parser MUST validate"
- 15:55:42 [fsasaki]
- .. another possibility to say "it could only be interpreted if valid"
- 15:56:09 [fsasaki]
- Francois: that sounds better. You cannot write any type of spec with a MUST to check well-formedness
- 15:56:36 [fsasaki]
- .. the XML spec does not satisfy no. 1, and there is no need to do that
- 15:57:16 [fsasaki]
- Mark: the weakest thing we should say: if you interpret the language tag, interpret it as RFC 4646
- 15:57:24 [fsasaki]
- .. actually BCP 47
- 15:57:42 [fsasaki]
- RESOLUTION: agreement to have a statement like "if you interpret the language tag, interpret it as RFC 4646" in LTLI
- 15:57:57 [fsasaki]
- Francois: if you have a specification which includes language tagging
- 15:58:28 [fsasaki]
- .. you MUST say "this must be according to BCP 47"
- 15:59:09 [fsasaki]
- .. we should say: Specifications that specify language tagging of any short should say that the semantics and syntax or that should folow BCP 47
- 15:59:20 [fsasaki]
- .. without forcing implementations of the spec to do so
- 15:59:52 [fsasaki]
- RESOLUTION: Have a statement like "Specifications that specify language tagging of any short should say that the semantics and syntax or that should folow BCP 47 without forcing implementations of the spec to do so" in LTLI
- 16:00:20 [fsasaki]
- Mark: we could have one further statement like
- 16:00:42 [fsasaki]
- s/folow/follow/
- 16:01:00 [fsasaki]
- s/without forcing implementations of the spec to do so/without forcing implementations of the spec to verify wellformedness or validity/
- 16:01:48 [fsasaki]
- Mark: if I "hit" a language tag that is not well-formed or invalid, I should not interpret it as a language tag
- 16:02:26 [fsasaki]
- .. example: xml:lang says "English". That is an invalid tag. I should not interpret it
- 16:03:10 [fsasaki]
- .. this is saying "this is what you have to do if you get an invalid tag?"
- 16:04:53 [fsasaki]
- .. if I process UTF-8 and get e.g. C080
- 16:05:21 [fsasaki]
- francois: it is like the xml spec which says "if you are not well-formed, you should stop processing"
- 16:05:41 [fsasaki]
- mark: we don't need to stop, you could e.g. transform the invalid value into s.t. valid
- 16:06:13 [fsasaki]
- .. but what you should not do is interpret it into s.t. that propregates the error
- 16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
- 16:07:15 [fsasaki]
- topic: discussion on IDNs
- 16:07:22 [fsasaki]
- mark: there is a dicussion on IDNs ongoing
- 16:07:33 [fsasaki]
- .. it would be good to join
- 16:07:39 [fsasaki]
- Francois: it is an IETF list?
- 16:07:48 [fsasaki]
- Mark: I send the information to the core list
- 16:08:23 [fsasaki]
- .. the key feature is : a number of people wants to limit the number of strings in IDNs, e.g. disallowing combinging marks
- 16:09:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
- 16:09:30 [Zakim]
- -MarkDavis
- 16:09:47 [r12a]
- http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0612-inkML/
- 16:09:57 [r12a]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-InkML-20061023/
- 16:10:16 [fsasaki]
- topic: InkML comments
- 16:12:50 [fsasaki]
- richard: they don't use xml:lang anywhere
- 16:12:56 [fsasaki]
- .. I'm saying "why?"
- 16:13:26 [fsasaki]
- .. I'm also saying "xml:lang should be used for indicating the language of the document"
- 16:14:45 [fsasaki]
- .. I want to confirm with you that xml:lang is not appropriate for following the traces
- 16:14:52 [fsasaki]
- Francois: I disagree
- 16:15:28 [fsasaki]
- .. if the document has traces, xml:lang can apply to the traces
- 16:15:59 [fsasaki]
- richard: an element like <annotation type="contentCategory">Text/en</annotation> can be used to say what language the traces should be
- 16:16:22 [fsasaki]
- .. I'm happy with them not using xml:lang here
- 16:16:56 [fsasaki]
- Francois: xml:lang has strict scoping rules, which don't apply for <annotation type="contentCategory">Text/en</annotation>, so it's good not to use xml:lang here
- 16:17:03 [fsasaki]
- Richard: the same in SSML
- 16:18:24 [fsasaki]
- .. now on comment 11: about time string
- 16:18:30 [fsasaki]
- .. they creat a time stamp
- 16:22:16 [fsasaki]
- s/creat/create/
- 16:28:14 [Zakim]
- -Felix
- 16:28:48 [Zakim]
- +Felix
- 16:30:52 [Zakim]
- -Karunesh_Arora
- 16:30:54 [Zakim]
- -Michael
- 16:30:55 [Zakim]
- -fyergeau
- 16:30:56 [Zakim]
- -Richard
- 16:30:57 [Zakim]
- -Felix
- 16:30:58 [Zakim]
- I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
- 16:31:00 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Michael, Felix, [IPcaller], fyergeau, Richard, Karunesh_Arora, MarkDavis
- 16:31:11 [fsasaki]
- (people will look at the comments today or tomorrow, Richard will send them out tomorrow)
- 16:31:14 [fsasaki]
- topic: next meeting
- 16:31:27 [fsasaki]
- next weeks meeting cancelled, good holiday for everybody
- 16:31:34 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
- 16:31:42 [vijay]
- bye
- 16:31:48 [vijay]
- \quit
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-actions.rdf :
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: all to give feedback on LTLI update (PENDING) [1]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-04-57
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to go back to schema people with our test ideas for XML Schema (DONE) [2]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-05-20
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to see what has to be updated on tutorial material for IDNA issues (DONE) [3]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-05-37
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael to propose an update to the section "does it work?" about domain names, see what needs to be sad these days [4]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-23-58
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Richard to add the alverstrand draft to the IRI / IDN article [5]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-24-25
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to prepare a text of a blog entry about the IRI / IDN issue in the alverstrand draft and send it Richard [6]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-25-43
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to update LTLI with "or its successor " statements (DONE) [7]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-27-14
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Francois to look after ISO locale related spec (DONE) [8]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-27-27
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (PENDING) [9]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-29-41
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING) [10]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-30-14
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Francois to have a look at issue 3698 and gather information on options for diacrictics in collations (PENDING) [11]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-30-29
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Francois to review InkML LC draft (DROPPED) [12]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-30-52
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Richard to find out what is the canonical URI for BCP47 (ONGOING) [13]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-31-17
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Felix to go back to XML Schema people with WG reply on IRI tests [14]
- 16:36:48 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/19-i18ncore-irc#T15-38-43
- 16:36:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #i18ncore
- 16:36:54 [fsasaki]
- fsasaki has left #i18ncore