IRC log of htmltf on 2006-12-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
13:57:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc
13:57:55 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
13:57:57 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
13:57:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas
13:58:06 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:58:21 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-12-11 http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes
13:59:08 [Zakim]
+Ralph
13:59:44 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Dec/0034.html
13:59:59 [benadida]
benadida has joined #htmltf
14:02:44 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:02:50 [benadida]
zakim, i am P13
14:02:50 [Zakim]
sorry, benadida, I do not see a party named 'P13'
14:02:59 [benadida]
zakim, i am ??P13
14:02:59 [Zakim]
+benadida; got it
14:04:05 [RalphS]
Scribe: Ralph
14:04:43 [RalphS]
Ben: I've revived discussion of hGRDDL on the GRDDL WG list
14:05:44 [MarkB_]
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14:05:46 [RalphS]
... the idea was that given lots of deployed microformats, perhaps it would be good to use GRDDL to transform them to RDFa to preserve rendering characteristics rather than directly to RDF
14:06:00 [RalphS]
Michael: I like the idea
14:07:21 [Zakim]
+??P14
14:07:27 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
14:07:27 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
14:08:00 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0042.html "Re: Review of testlist1#rdfa" where Ben reintroduces hGRDDL
14:09:07 [RalphS]
Michael: the Wiki seems to be dropping some updates
14:09:57 [RalphS]
... I've edited http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements 5-6 times but only the most recent appears
14:10:25 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements?action=info
14:10:28 [RalphS]
... the final version does show all the changes
14:10:52 [RalphS]
... but the recent changes page doesn't show all the changes
14:12:30 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
14:12:33 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:13:03 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm talking with Science Commons. Their use cases tend to be quite long so I'm working on distilling something down to the core
14:13:30 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
14:13:53 [RalphS]
Ben: shall we move the issues list to the wiki?
14:14:14 [RalphS]
Michael: I'll volunteer to move it
14:14:44 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael move the issues list to the wiki
14:14:51 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
14:15:34 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues when the new wiki issues list page is done
14:16:08 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark to report on schema progress [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
14:16:47 [RalphS]
Mark: I've talked with Shane and we're going to move forward using some templates we already have
14:17:23 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec
14:18:21 [RalphS]
Mark: the module is already complete. I've enlisted Shane because of his understanding of XHTML modularization and his ability to write specs quickly
14:18:51 [RalphS]
Ben: does your current module have the latest striping and class decisions incorporated?
14:18:53 [RalphS]
Mark: no, not yet
14:19:06 [RalphS]
... but it won't take long to bring it into line
14:20:19 [benadida]
looking at --> http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary
14:20:30 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Elias to look into sharing Open Office with task force [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
14:20:38 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
14:20:40 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:20:44 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
14:20:46 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:21:06 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
14:21:08 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:21:16 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
14:21:44 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:22:01 [RalphS]
Mark: I have to reproduce these from memory
14:22:19 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
14:22:21 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:22:24 [RalphS]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
14:22:26 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:22:42 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael to research extended usages of RDFa in Wikis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
14:22:57 [RalphS]
Topic: Use Cases
14:23:04 [RalphS]
Michael: I added several
14:23:16 [RalphS]
... I tried to separate system metadata from others
14:23:56 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements#head-16b401eee1ad765055a4b133806e0fe799ecaadb Semantic Wiki use cases
14:24:05 [RalphS]
Michael: does 8.1 capture what you were thinking, Ben?
14:24:15 [RalphS]
Ben: begins to capture
14:24:35 [RalphS]
... in a semantic wiki there are triples all over the place; every link has a relationship
14:25:20 [RalphS]
Michael: I could go into more detail but I really wanted to show that without any user action there is already metadata there and RDFa could be provided
14:25:40 [RalphS]
Ben: can point out that all the triples from the semantic wiki can be included in the HTML
14:26:16 [RalphS]
Michael: I'm not so deep into semantic wikis to know if they want to go into client-side RDFa
14:26:38 [RalphS]
... they're currently constructing RDF on the server side from the raw page source
14:27:38 [RalphS]
Ben: I need to resync on this; I've talked with Stefano Mazocchi
14:27:47 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben look at Semantic Media Wiki use case
14:28:10 [RalphS]
Michael: PDF use case http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements#head-fd77f6f46ed0abaa22c6f67728d9df884238e7bf
14:28:31 [RalphS]
... converting PDF to HTML can preserve the metadata using RDFa
14:29:29 [RalphS]
... Mobile Device use case; I looked quickly at DELI and it seems feasible to create this on the fly
14:30:21 [RalphS]
Mark: doesn't seem quite the right way around; CC/PP is delivered by the client to the server
14:31:13 [RalphS]
Ralph: that is my understanding as well; the server does some processing based on the client describing its capabilities
14:31:49 [RalphS]
Mark: role attribute is used now a lot in the mobile community
14:32:30 [RalphS]
... to describe, e.g. that a div is a navigation bar or a footer
14:33:18 [RalphS]
... with CC/PP you know what the device can do so the server can optimize the placement of such things for the device
14:33:26 [RalphS]
Michael: Publishing use case
14:33:52 [RalphS]
... to emphasize use in blogging community
14:33:53 [MarkB_]
On blogging: http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_chem-bla-ics_archive.html
14:34:10 [MarkB_]
This guy is talking about using RDFa for chemistry.
14:34:43 [RalphS]
... might be nice to approach del.icio.us
14:34:52 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael review Mobile Device use case
14:36:35 [RalphS]
Mark: chem-bla-ics is an example of a focussed blog that is more than simply a personal page
14:37:09 [RalphS]
Ben: chemisty example might be better to go with Science Commons use case rather than just blogging
14:37:26 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben add chem-bla-ics use case to a science use case
14:38:13 [RalphS]
Mark: this also shows a need for namespaces
14:39:04 [RalphS]
Ben: copy-and-paste use case is Mark's
14:39:11 [RalphS]
Mark: yep, I'll work on it this week
14:40:03 [RalphS]
Ben: I've received suggestions that the use cases be more consumer-focussed and less publisher-focussed
14:40:26 [RalphS]
... add more story lines, as the use cases are never just one-way
14:42:47 [RalphS]
Ben: next 2 Mondays are holidays. Are we able to meet later during the week of 1 January?
14:43:01 [RalphS]
Mark: I'll be working off and on, but perhaps we can communicate more by email
14:43:32 [RalphS]
Ben: next telecon will be 8 Jan then; we'll need to have a complete document by then to send to the WG for the 9th
14:45:51 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'd like to see more detail in story lines in the use case document. Most of the detail is currently buried in the markup. This works for us but not for the general reader.
14:46:02 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, I hope to flesh out the story lines following the GRDDL example
14:46:34 [benadida]
Ralph: from the use cases, we should be able to distill out requirements
14:46:52 [mhausenblas]
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14:47:20 [benadida]
... summarized in a "list of requiremens."
14:47:28 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/
14:47:29 [benadida]
s/requiremens/requirements
14:48:32 [RalphS]
Michael: where are our requirements? they should be called out specifically, as in the OWL UCR document
14:48:48 [RalphS]
Ralph: I agree but I'm pessimistic about the available time
14:49:08 [RalphS]
Michael: so we shouldn't claim that this document has requirements yet
14:49:30 [RalphS]
Topic: XHTML 1.1 module status
14:49:39 [RalphS]
Ben: we have Mark's update
14:49:48 [RalphS]
... is it likely to be ready by 8 Jan?
14:49:55 [benadida]
--> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
14:50:00 [RalphS]
Mark: I hope so -- I'm keeping an eye out for Shane
14:50:18 [RalphS]
Topic: Issues
14:50:50 [RalphS]
Ben: I want to particularly highlight issues 4&7 role & class)
14:51:11 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#role Role Attribute
14:51:22 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm happy with the proposal
14:51:35 [RalphS]
Michael: whatever we decide needs to go into the RDFa syntax document soon
14:52:15 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'm generally persuaded by Mark's arguments
14:52:35 [RalphS]
Ben: we should confirm Steven's agreement
14:53:01 [RalphS]
Ben: issue 12 - CURIEs in predicate attributes
14:53:46 [RalphS]
... I'm of the opinion that these should be CURIE/QName only, and not try to add [] syntax
14:54:12 [RalphS]
Ralph: the further we get from current HTML practice the harder we make our lives
14:54:48 [RalphS]
Ben: sounds like we have consensus for just CURIE only
14:55:39 [RalphS]
Ralph: I need to raise red flags about presuming a CURIE solution, especially for XHTML 1.1
14:55:50 [RalphS]
Mark: we don't need to drop CURIEs just because of XHTML 1.1
14:56:05 [RalphS]
Ben: issue 18 nested meta and link
14:56:31 [RalphS]
... proposed resolution is to look up the tree for a meta containing @about
14:57:23 [RalphS]
... in Bob Ducharme's example in the use case, do we agree that the interpretation is as Bob suggests? Making statements about the same subject
14:57:41 [RalphS]
Michael: I have a problem with reification in general. I doubt it's wise to include it in the first version.
14:57:47 [RalphS]
Mark: this isn't reification
14:58:49 [RalphS]
... we don't get reification until we put meta inside non-meta
14:59:22 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
14:59:25 [Zakim]
-Ralph
14:59:26 [Zakim]
-MarkB_
14:59:31 [Zakim]
-Michael_Hausenblas
15:00:03 [RalphS]
zakim, list attendees
15:00:03 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, benadida, MarkB_
15:00:11 [Zakim]
-benadida
15:00:13 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:00:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, benadida, MarkB_
15:00:23 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:00:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
15:01:22 [MarkB_]
That last example is *not* reification because the meta has an @about.
15:01:32 [MarkB_]
I'm not saying it's easy....... :)
15:01:39 [mhausenblas]
so how to call it then anyway?
15:02:34 [mhausenblas]
off-the-records: i started out some 6 years ago using topic maps
15:02:45 [mhausenblas]
there reification was one thing
15:02:49 [MarkB_]
If the meta had *no* @about then the statements that are below the meta would be 'about' that meta element...i.e., reified.
15:02:58 [MarkB_]
(i.e., about that statement)
15:03:19 [MarkB_]
This is actually reasonably clear:
15:03:21 [MarkB_]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax#id0x06dbb9e8
15:04:10 [mhausenblas]
ok. the point is: if we "sell" this, shouldn't we be careful about using terms?
15:04:16 [MarkB_]
I'm not suggesting we don't change it, but it's quite important to remember that it's actually pretty difficult to get reification in your documents unless you specifically ask for it...which seems the right way to do it.
15:04:30 [MarkB_]
We should always be careful about using terms. :)
15:04:54 [mhausenblas]
;)right. tried the link. doesn't work, guessing you mean 4.3.3 ?
15:05:09 [mhausenblas]
4.3.3.1
15:05:11 [MarkB_]
No...5.3
15:05:40 [mhausenblas]
soooooooo. how does 4.3.3.x play into it then ...
15:06:01 [mhausenblas]
sorry for the dumb question now, but I really try to understand all apsects ...
15:07:11 [MarkB_]
I don't know what you mean...they don't seem to contradict.
15:09:03 [mhausenblas]
might be just me being a bit tired - I go trough it and let you know by mail, right?
15:11:01 [mhausenblas]
BTW: I'm not critising the RDFa syntax doc. IMHO it is a very well written and useful spec
15:11:31 [mhausenblas]
I found it most interesting taking it and implement the RDFa extractor quite straight forward
15:12:33 [mhausenblas]
Though: You all here in the TF have some two or three years of a head-start
15:12:47 [mhausenblas]
and I'm trying to catch up :)
15:13:36 [benadida]
benadida has left #htmltf
15:48:04 [MarkB_]
MarkB_ has left #htmltf
17:24:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #htmltf
18:31:38 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-actions.rdf :
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [1]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-12-30
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael move the issues list to the wiki [2]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-14-44
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues when the new wiki issues list page is done [3]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-15-34
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [4]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-17-23
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [5]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-20-38
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [6]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-20-44
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [7]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-21-06
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [8]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-21-16
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [9]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-22-19
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [10]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-22-24
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to research extended usages of RDFa in Wikis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03] [11]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-22-42
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben look at Semantic Media Wiki use case [12]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-27-47
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael review Mobile Device use case [13]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-34-52
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben add chem-bla-ics use case to a science use case [14]
18:31:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc#T14-37-26