IRC log of grddl-wg on 2006-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:03:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
16:03:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:03:25 [HarryH]
zakim, this is grddl
16:03:36 [Zakim]
ok, HarryH; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
16:03:47 [HarryH]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P7, +0777582aaaa
16:04:09 [bwm]
Zakim, ??p7 is bwm
16:04:09 [Zakim]
+bwm; got it
16:04:24 [Zakim]
16:04:50 [FabienG]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bwm, +0777582aaaa, FabienG
16:05:04 [HarryH]
Zakim, +0777582aaa is bwm
16:05:05 [Zakim]
+bwm; got it
16:05:11 [HarryH]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bwm, bwm.a, FabienG
16:05:25 [HarryH]
Zakim, bwm is harry
16:05:25 [Zakim]
+harry; got it
16:05:33 [HarryH]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see harry, bwm.a, FabienG
16:05:39 [HarryH]
Zakim, bwm.a is bwm
16:05:39 [Zakim]
+bwm; got it
16:06:01 [HarryH]
zakim, read agenda from
16:06:02 [Zakim]
working on it, HarryH
16:06:03 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500
16:06:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
16:06:05 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:06:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
16:06:07 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML
16:06:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
16:06:12 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML
16:06:14 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
16:06:15 [Zakim]
agenda+ Cross-document Introduction
16:06:16 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
16:06:17 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
16:06:18 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
16:06:20 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-base-param]
16:06:24 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
16:06:26 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer Document
16:06:28 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
16:06:30 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: General issues
16:06:32 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
16:06:34 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, HarryH
16:07:07 [HarryH]
Chair: HarryH
16:07:10 [HarryH]
Scribe: bwm
16:07:43 [Zakim]
16:07:45 [briansuda]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is briansuda
16:07:45 [Zakim]
+briansuda; got it
16:07:54 [briansuda]
Zakim, [+IPcaller] is briansuda
16:07:55 [Zakim]
sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '[+IPcaller]'
16:08:11 [HarryH]
Scribe next week?
16:08:13 [briansuda]
Zakim, +[IPcaller] is briansuda
16:08:13 [Zakim]
sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:08:15 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:15 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose harry
16:08:20 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:21 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose briansuda
16:08:27 [briansuda]
16:08:35 [HarryH]
brian suda is scribe
16:08:51 [HarryH]
PROPOSED: to approve as a true record
16:09:24 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: as a true record of Dec 6 2006 GRDDL Meeting
16:09:32 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:09:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500" taken up
16:09:36 [HarryH]
Zakim, nexxt item
16:09:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'nexxt item', HarryH
16:09:39 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:09:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, HarryH
16:09:43 [HarryH]
Zakim, close item
16:09:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', HarryH
16:09:44 [FabienG]
sends regrets from 20 Dec until wednesday 10 Jan included
16:09:46 [HarryH]
Zakim, close 1
16:09:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close 1', HarryH
16:09:58 [HarryH]
Zakim, close item 1
16:09:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500, closed
16:09:59 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:10:00 [Zakim]
2. Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:10:03 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:10:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:10:57 [HarryH]
bwm: Distinction between examples and test-case
16:11:35 [HarryH]
bwm: DanC agrees distinction, but seems to want put everything in test-suite
16:11:51 [HarryH]
bwm: Normative test-cases
16:12:00 [HarryH]
bwm: Informative examples
16:12:08 [HarryH]
Previous two lines were me
16:12:48 [HarryH]
bwm: whether or not test-cases or normative is orthogonal.
16:13:15 [HarryH]
DanC puts everything in test-cases
16:13:37 [HarryH]
In charter, demonstrate how we work RDFa
16:13:37 [bwm]
harry: we must have relationship to rdf/a
16:13:55 [bwm]
... I would be happy to separate out examples that link to use case doc from the test suite
16:14:13 [bwm]
... we do stuff like the rdf/a as an example
16:14:20 [bwm]
... is that ok?
16:14:43 [bwm]
bwm: for me, yes, but we need DanC to decide.
16:15:03 [bwm]
Harry: Fabien?
16:15:18 [bwm]
Fabian: there are other issues with this example
16:15:39 [bwm]
... the use of rel attribute in link elements in GRDDL collides with use in RDF/a
16:16:05 [bwm]
... we should look at this closely
16:16:18 [bwm]
harry: are you on rdf/a
16:16:26 [bwm]
Fabian: I'm on the mailing list
16:16:32 [bwm]
... and submitted this example to them
16:16:41 [bwm]
... the group is not at full speed right now
16:16:50 [bwm]
hh: could you forward any responses ...
16:17:00 [bwm]
Fabian: no one noticed this
16:18:52 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL: separate examples like RDFa that are covered by the charter from test suite and link examples to Use Case Document.
16:19:21 [FabienG]
Brian's proposal: "The root cause of the problem here may be that RDF/a treats the value of
16:19:23 [FabienG]
the rel attribute of a link element as a Curie and GRDDL doesn't. A
16:19:24 [FabienG]
possible solution would be to mod GRDDL so that the rel attribute value
16:19:26 [FabienG]
is also treated as a curie e.g. "grddl:transformation" with the grddl
16:19:27 [FabienG]
namespace prefix defined."
16:20:06 [bwm]
Fabian: I'm in favour of the Brian's solution
16:20:18 [bwm]
hh: is everyone ok with these proposals
16:20:30 [HarryH]
CURIEs might be controversial with DanC and the TAG.
16:21:03 [bwm]
bwm: good leave these for future discussion
16:21:04 [HarryH]
We'll try to consensus on these with DanC and anyone else at next meeting
16:21:09 [bwm]
Zakim, next item
16:21:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "[#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up
16:21:26 [bwm]
Zakim, take up agenda item 2
16:21:26 [Zakim]
'item 2' does not match any agenda item, bwm
16:21:29 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 2
16:21:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:22:09 [bwm]
re action Fabien to make SAWSDL test case
16:22:11 [FabienG]
SAWSDL drafts: and
16:22:29 [bwm]
fabian: my opinion is that we should postpone
16:22:55 [bwm]
... most of the SAWSDL annotation could be translated to RDF
16:23:02 [bwm]
... not sure what to do with xml schema part
16:23:07 [bwm]
... what is the base url
16:23:13 [bwm]
... I can't answer these right now
16:23:36 [bwm]
... we should wait
16:23:43 [bwm]
hh: I thought they were in last call
16:23:58 [bwm]
Fabien: they are currently at working draft stage
16:24:09 [bwm]
hh: is the wg aware of this issue
16:24:23 [bwm]
Fabian: I am not part of that group
16:24:31 [bwm]
hh: they have a comments list
16:24:38 [bwm]
Fabian: I could do that
16:24:49 [bwm]
s/that/ post a comment/
16:25:02 [HarryH]
ACTION: Fabien to post to sawsdl list relevant questions about RDF mapping and relationship to GRDDL
16:25:35 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:25:35 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "[#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up
16:26:07 [bwm]
hh: I asked semweb cg to register turtle type
16:27:18 [HarryH]
XInclude: What if document you're including as GRDDL links?
16:27:51 [HarryH]
bwm: Both Ian and bwm thought both should be under control of author.
16:28:06 [HarryH]
bwm: possibility of a transform-all link as opposed to transform?
16:29:35 [bwm]
... I have prejudice to keep things simple
16:29:55 [bwm]
... i.e. define the 'atomic' operation of GRDDL applied to a single document
16:30:03 [bwm]
... and worry about more complicated structures later
16:30:21 [HarryH]
By "single" document do you mean infoset pre-Xinclude or post-Xincllude?
16:30:50 [HarryH]
Don't assume XInclulde is being done.
16:31:02 [bwm]
bwm: pre-Xinclude
16:31:21 [bwm]
hh: that's the way I'm leaning to
16:31:49 [HarryH]
Should we consensus?
16:32:25 [HarryH]
bwm: 2 different issues
16:32:36 [HarryH]
bwm: what about DTDs and Schemas validation?
16:32:43 [HarryH]
bwm: what about XInclude?
16:32:55 [HarryH]
bwm: Not assuming XInclude processing
16:33:24 [HarryH]
bwm: No opinion about DTD Schema validation
16:33:53 [bwm]
hh: the order of processing of xml documents is not in our charter
16:34:09 [bwm]
... murray is our liason the group responsible for that
16:34:25 [bwm]
... they aren't going to decide for a year
16:34:52 [bwm]
... it means that not every grddl implementatio will treat includes and validation the same
16:35:19 [bwm]
... but its in the author's remit to say what should be done
16:35:51 [HarryH]
bwm: publisher of document should have control
16:35:55 [HarryH]
bwm: of document.
16:35:56 [Zakim]
16:36:57 [HarryH]
bwm: They should know what they are publishing
16:37:04 [HarryH]
bwm: No use to them to say XInclude may or may not get run.
16:38:10 [HarryH]
bwm: Because they may not have control of transform they need answer.
16:38:31 [bwm]
murray: grddl can't answer this question
16:39:01 [bwm]
... ultimately its up to the publisher or the transform author to answer this question
16:39:19 [bwm]
... a little snippet of xml transform could recognize an xinclude
16:39:42 [bwm]
... and puts a comment in the graph that something is missing
16:39:58 [bwm]
... doesn't belong in the spec
16:40:03 [bwm]
... but maybe in the tutorial
16:40:24 [bwm]
... we could publish a transform that did this
16:41:29 [bwm]
hh: you are suggesting an informative statement
16:41:31 [bwm]
murry: yes
16:41:51 [bwm]
... we could say in the spec there are dragons around xincludes
16:42:05 [bwm]
hh: I agree with that
16:44:20 [bwm]
bwm: are publishers responsible for triples that are produced by transforming an included document
16:44:30 [bwm]
murray: yes - xinclude specifies that
16:46:44 [bwm]
... xinclude processing tends to happen on the server side
16:47:02 [bwm]
... here is a simple expedient
16:47:11 [bwm]
... we ask for a transform in the XI namespace
16:47:24 [bwm]
... as soon as you use xinclude that transform is available
16:47:31 [bwm]
hh: that is good thinking
16:47:58 [bwm]
murray: we don't control the namespace, we'd have to ask
16:48:11 [bwm]
hh: in whose domain is xinclude
16:48:23 [bwm]
murray: dunno - ask Liam Quinn
16:49:11 [HarryH]
ACTION: Murray to e-mail Liam Quinn and DanC about possibility of GRDDL XInclude transform in XInclude namespace.
16:50:28 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL: That we do not mandante XInclude or XML Processing Order on the XML input document, and write a caveat in the spec.
16:51:42 [HarryH]
Murray: XML transforms operates on an Infoset
16:52:01 [HarryH]
Bwm: DTD or XML Schema transforms an Infoset by adding default values.
16:52:45 [HarryH]
bwm: So if you run a Schema then GRDDL, you would get different RDF from the one that you ran pre-Schema
16:56:22 [HarryH]
murray: So if you don't follow your nose you don't get the the full results, and we can't dictate following your nose.
16:58:08 [HarryH]
bwm: what is the minimum amount of RDF published?
16:58:40 [HarryH]
bwm: The minimum is the output of the transformation run against the serialization of source document.
16:58:54 [HarryH]
16:59:52 [bwm]
bwm: from the publishers point of view there are two questions - what must be in the GRDDL result of a transform and could be in the GRDDL result of a transform
17:04:03 [bwm]
murray: I think its wrong to define a minimum
17:05:17 [bwm]
Zakim, next item
17:05:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
17:05:33 [FabienG]
17:05:58 [bwm]
fabien: DanC has written email saying he is ok with content
17:06:11 [bwm]
... but is not happy with the word "scaping"
17:06:27 [bwm]
17:06:31 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
17:06:32 [FabienG]
Scraping the web: Steffen wants to build a directory of the people he works with.
17:07:27 [bwm]
... at the beginning there was discussion about ensuring that grddl was about transforms not on scraping
17:08:04 [bwm]
hh: do you have a transform attached to non xhtml compliant docuemnt
17:08:04 [HarryH]
maybe just have a GRDDL transform attached to non-XML compliant HTML?
17:08:17 [bwm]
fabien: I tried to cover all the bases
17:08:28 [bwm]
... there is one where you have to tidy it
17:08:52 [bwm]
... there is an example of trying to extract as much as possible
17:09:03 [bwm]
... and that might be considered to be scraping
17:09:35 [bwm]
hh: could you phrase it as "you are receiving a document and transforming it according to a grddl link"
17:09:52 [bwm]
hh: could we just lose the word scrping from the title
17:10:17 [bwm]
fabien: DanC's message started with not sure wehther to use it and ended with maybe we should use it
17:10:26 [bwm]
murray: scraping is a bad word stop using it
17:10:38 [bwm]
... there are multiple definitions
17:10:43 [bwm]
... its a pejorative term
17:10:51 [bwm]
... people have trouble with it
17:10:54 [bwm]
... so lets find a different word
17:11:42 [HarryH]
Murray: "Extracting machine-friendly data from web-pages" :)
17:11:49 [bwm]
murray: try extracting machine friendly data from web pages
17:12:00 [bwm]
hh: fine with me
17:12:05 [FabienG]
ACTION: fabien to remove the word scraping
17:12:09 [bwm]
... I'll leave this in Fabien's hands
17:12:32 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:12:32 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
17:12:48 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:12:48 [Zakim]
agendum 5 was just opened, HarryH
17:12:53 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 6
17:12:53 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "[#issue-mt-ns]" taken up
17:13:02 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 7
17:13:02 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "[#issue-base-param]" taken up
17:13:49 [HarryH]
Propose: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is
17:13:49 [HarryH]
the base URI of the transform source document, the WG RESOLVES not to
17:13:49 [HarryH]
define a base URI parameter for transforms, noting that triples
17:13:49 [HarryH]
referring to transformed document, or documents named relative to the
17:13:49 [HarryH]
transformed document can be created as illustrated in test case
17:13:50 [HarryH] .
17:15:12 [bwm]
test case files are in
17:16:10 [bwm]
correction should be
17:16:31 [bwm]
hh: why did we have a suggestion for a base param
17:16:39 [bwm]
murray: so that relative uri references work
17:17:16 [bwm]
hh: murray does brian proposal resolve t his
17:17:25 [bwm]
murray: I'd ask Dan
17:20:21 [HarryH]
Would this cause problems for if the source doucment didn't end in
17:20:32 [HarryH]
17:21:56 [HarryH]
Only use of base-param would be with would we want to don't to add a #?
17:23:19 [Zakim]
17:23:36 [bwm]
hh: what do other people think
17:23:42 [bwm]
murray: I'm happy
17:23:52 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is
17:23:52 [HarryH]
the base URI of the transform source document, the WG RESOLVES not to
17:23:52 [HarryH]
define a base URI parameter for transforms.
17:24:40 [briansuda]
has to abstain - need to catch-up on back
17:24:43 [briansuda]
17:24:49 [HarryH]
I approve.
17:25:11 [HarryH]
bwm: not quite quorum.
17:25:37 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL should continue, HarryH as a proxy for bwm if he's not at next meeting.
17:25:49 [HarryH]
Proxy to vote for "yes"
17:25:59 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:25:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
17:26:04 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:26:04 [Zakim]
agendum 5 was just opened, HarryH
17:26:29 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 8
17:26:29 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Primer Document" taken up
17:26:40 [HarryH]
We've checked a new version of primer.
17:26:53 [HarryH]
And all that remains is double-checking SPARQL and manufacturing more example data.
17:26:59 [briansuda]
i have emailed HarryH some files
17:27:09 [HarryH]
BrianSuda has manufactured most of the example data.
17:27:29 [bwm]
I nominate Harry as my proxy to vote on the baseparam proposal if I'm not at meeting where it is consdiered
17:29:39 [Zakim]
17:29:52 [bwm]
bwm has left #grddl-wg
17:30:14 [HarryH]
ACTION: [DONE] HarryH to respond to Chime, clarifying song/album and discussing bNode vs URI.
17:30:26 [HarryH]
ACTION [DONE]: bwm to review testlist1#rdfa1.
17:30:40 [HarryH]
ACTION [DONE]: Fabien to make a SAWSDL test sketch
17:31:01 [HarryH]
ACTION:[DONE] bwm to review testlist1#rdfa1
17:31:15 [HarryH]
ACTION:[DONE] Fabien to make a SAWSDL test sketch
17:31:28 [HarryH]
ACTION: [DONE] HarryH to poke semweb cg re N3 media type registration
17:31:39 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to add N3/turtle mime type to Atom/turtle test case. noting the unregistered status [CONTINUES]
17:31:49 [HarryH]
ACTION:DanC to write rules about XSLT 1.0 processing context [CONTINUES]
17:32:01 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to integrate Murray's XInclude test case sketch into the test collection [CONTINUES]
17:32:09 [HarryH]
ACTION:Fabien to add a tidy/tag-soup use case/paragraph, with caveats [DONE]
17:32:17 [HarryH]
CTION: Ian to reconsider comments on cross-document introduction [CONTINUES]
17:32:25 [HarryH]
ACTION: Ian to reconsider comments on cross-document introduction [CONTINUES]
17:32:39 [HarryH]
* ACTION: iand to construct a content negotiation test case [CONTINUES]
17:32:53 [HarryH]
ACTION:BWM to produce ~3 test cases for #issue-base-param [CONTINUES]
17:33:02 [HarryH]
ACTION: Harry and Brian to rewrite second part of primer to use Brian and Dan's instance data [CONTINUES]
17:33:14 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to add a sample implementation appendix to the GRDDL spec. [CONTINUES]
17:33:31 [HarryH]
ACTION: iand to construct a content negotiation test case [CONTINUES]
17:34:04 [FabienG]
Meeting: Grddl Telecon
17:34:10 [FabienG]
Chair: Harry
17:34:38 [FabienG]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:34:50 [FabienG]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:34:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate FabienG
17:35:28 [Zakim]
17:35:31 [HarryH]
Meeting Adjourned
17:35:37 [Zakim]
17:35:38 [Zakim]
17:35:40 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
17:35:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were +0777582aaaa, FabienG, harry, bwm, briansuda, Murray_Maloney
17:42:38 [briansuda]
HarryH, if you want to try and schedule a time to work-up the Primer, let me know
19:31:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #grddl-wg