14:22:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:22:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/12-dawg-irc
14:22:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dawg
14:22:17 <LeeF> zakim, this will be DAWG
14:22:17 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:22:55 <LeeF> agenda+ Convene
14:23:03 <LeeF> agenda+ Review ACTION Items
14:23:10 <LeeF> agenda+ Operator mapping
14:23:16 <LeeF> agenda+ Bob MacGregor's comments on UNSAID
14:23:20 <kendallclark> kendallclark has joined #dawg
14:23:22 <LeeF> agenda+ FILTER interaction with OPTIONAL/LeftJoin
14:24:23 <LeeF> Meeting: DAWG Weekly
14:24:34 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:24:44 <LeeF> Regrets: jeen
14:27:43 <sdas2> sdas2 has joined #DAWG
14:28:54 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:29:01 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
14:29:06 <LeeF> zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:29:06 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:30:11 <Zakim> +??P1
14:30:15 <AndyS> zakim, ??P1 is me
14:30:15 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:30:20 <Zakim> +??P2
14:30:39 <ericP> zakim, ??P2 is me
14:30:39 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
14:31:00 <Zakim> + +1.603.459.aaaa
14:31:24 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:31:46 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is Souri
14:31:46 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:32:02 <kendallclark> zakim, please mute me
14:32:02 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:32:06 <LeeF> zakim, Souri is sdas2
14:32:06 <Zakim> +sdas2; got it
14:33:48 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:33:48 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from LeeF]
14:34:03 <kendallclark> I'll scribe
14:34:10 <AndyS> zakim,  who is on the phone?
14:34:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, ericP, sdas2, Kendall_Clark (muted)
14:34:12 <kendallclark> yay, me!
14:34:16 <LeeF> Scribe: kendallclark
14:34:21 <kendallclark> Scribe: kendallclark
14:34:30 <kendallclark> +1
14:34:31 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-dawg-minutes.html
14:34:36 <Zakim> +SimonR
14:34:58 <kendallclark> PROPOSED to approve those minutes for last week...APPROVED
14:35:36 <kendallclark> Next meeting: 19 Dec, 2006, usual time & place, EricP to scribe
14:35:49 <LeeF> zakim, close this agendum
14:35:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:35:50 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:35:52 <Zakim> 2. Review ACTION Items [from LeeF]
14:36:26 <kendallclark> CVS still broken... alas
14:36:34 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
14:36:34 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:37:38 <kendallclark> zakim, please mute me
14:37:38 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:37:58 <kendallclark> ACTION: Jeen propose test suite process (not do it all).
14:38:00 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:38:05 <LeeF> agenda+ ericP's response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html
14:38:07 <kendallclark> ACTION: LeeF to review rq24-algebra
14:38:12 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:38:12 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:38:12 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review ACTION Items" taken up [from LeeF]
14:38:17 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:38:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, LeeF
14:38:21 <kendallclark> ACTION: KendallC to close formsOfDistinct issue
14:38:22 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:38:24 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 2
14:38:24 <Zakim> agendum 2, Review ACTION Items, closed
14:38:25 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:26 <Zakim> 3. Operator mapping [from LeeF]
14:38:27 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:38:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Operator mapping" taken up [from LeeF]
14:38:35 <kendallclark> ACTION: KendallC to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put 
14:38:35 <kendallclark> to the question
14:38:38 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:38:46 <kendallclark> ACTION: PatH to change the entailment section around to talk about SPARQL 
14:38:47 <kendallclark> first, then more general conditions in a normative appendix
14:38:48 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:38:58 <kendallclark> ACTION: ericP to seek clarification on 
14:38:59 <kendallclark> http://www.w3.org/mod/20061110085518567.00000002912@bmacgregor1
14:39:01 <kendallclark> CONTINUE
14:39:47 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:40:16 <Zakim> +PatH
14:40:27 <kendallclark> Attendees: +PatH
14:40:43 <LeeF> We're talking about the operator mapping tables at: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html#OperatorMapping
14:41:06 <patH> ok.
14:41:16 <LeeF> ericP on operator mappings: 
14:41:16 <LeeF>   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0190.html
14:45:01 <SimonR> Is "simple literal" official RDF yet, or is it still just an informal name for a plain literal without a specified language?
14:45:13 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#OperatorMapping [[
14:45:15 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DtypeRules
14:45:24 <ericP> When selecting the operator definition for a given set of parameters, the definition with the most specific parameters applies. For instance, when evaluating xsd:integer = xsd:signedInt, the definition for = with two numeric parameters applies, rather than the one with two RDF terms. The table is arranged so that upper-most viable candiate is the most specific.
14:45:26 <AndyS> rules xsd 1a and 1b
14:45:29 <ericP> ]]
14:46:01 <LeeF> SimonR, in 11.1 our spec defines "simple literal denotes a plain literal with no language tag."
14:46:15 <SimonR> Thank you!
14:46:27 <LeeF> yw
14:49:10 <patH> yes, andy Ur right
14:49:10 <LeeF> PROPOSED: accept the changes to the operator mapping table suggested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0190.html
14:49:15 <ericP> [[
14:49:17 <ericP> >A = B  simple literal  simple literal
14:49:17 <ericP> >       op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), 0)
14:49:17 <ericP> >A = B  xsd:string      xsd:string
14:49:17 <ericP> >       op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(STR(A), STR(B)), 0)
14:49:18 <LeeF> seconded by AndyS
14:49:19 <ericP> >A != B simple literal  simple literal
14:49:22 <ericP> >       fn:not(op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), 0))
14:49:24 <ericP> >A != B xsd:string      xsd:string
14:49:27 <ericP> >       fn:not(op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(STR(A), STR(B)), 0))
14:49:29 <ericP> ]]
14:49:42 <LeeF> APPROVEd, no objections, no abstentions
14:49:48 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum
14:49:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', LeeF
14:50:08 <kendallclark> who's that action on?
14:50:25 <kendallclark> ACTION EricP: to sort out some string literal thing for the operator table
14:50:34 <kendallclark> ok, not the most accurate action, but I missed some of the discussion
14:50:36 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 2
14:50:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, Review ACTION Items, closed
14:50:37 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:50:38 <Zakim> 3. Operator mapping [from LeeF]
14:50:40 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
14:50:40 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Bob MacGregor's comments on UNSAID" taken up [from LeeF]
14:51:52 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0191.html
14:52:11 <ericP> Andy: not sure that simple literal arguments to fn:compare pass it an xsd datatype
14:52:24 <ericP> ... not sure that we need the STR()s
14:52:25 <ericP> .
14:52:42 <kendallclark> btw, McGregor's demonstrably wrong about large scale reasoning systems. They don't *all* or even mostly assume UNA and CWA. That's just REALLY dumb.
14:53:06 <AndyS> quite
14:53:18 <patH> Yes, he does tend to overstate his case. But he does havea case.
14:53:45 <kendallclark> well, not based on THAT claim. It's silly.
14:53:57 <SimonR> I'd say it's a lot easier to add UNSAID than to remove it.  RDF's deliberately designed for *minimum* useful expressiveness.
14:54:23 <SimonR> (At a later date or in an extension, that is.)
14:55:28 <kendallclark> I propose that we tell McGregory (and Axel!) thanks but no thanks.
14:56:25 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
14:56:25 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:56:28 <AndyS> I see no new information.  Here, "Closed" for me means "closed for v1" = "posponed"
14:57:11 <kendallclark> zakim, mute me
14:57:11 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:57:26 <kendallclark> also a similarity with Mark Baker
14:57:55 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
14:57:55 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:59:04 <kendallclark> FWIW
14:59:06 <kendallclark> zakim, mute me
14:59:06 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:59:36 <kendallclark> EricP: on behalf of the working group...
14:59:40 <kendallclark> heh, just kidding!
14:59:43 <LeeF> zakim, close current agendum
14:59:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close current agendum', LeeF
14:59:49 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 3
14:59:50 <Zakim> agendum 3, Operator mapping, closed
14:59:51 <kendallclark> yay!!!
14:59:51 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:59:52 <Zakim> 4. Bob MacGregor's comments on UNSAID [from LeeF]
14:59:54 <kendallclark> do you promise?
14:59:55 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 4
14:59:55 <Zakim> agendum 4, Bob MacGregor's comments on UNSAID, closed
14:59:56 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:59:57 <Zakim> 5. FILTER interaction with OPTIONAL/LeftJoin [from LeeF]
15:00:03 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:00:03 <Zakim> agendum 5. "FILTER interaction with OPTIONAL/LeftJoin" taken up [from LeeF]
15:00:39 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Dec/0014.html
15:01:21 <LeeF>  
15:01:21 <LeeF>   {  
15:01:21 <LeeF>     ?x foaf:age ?age .  
15:01:21 <LeeF>     OPTIONAL { ?x ex:salary ?salary . FILTER (?age > 18 ) . 
15:01:21 <LeeF>     ?x foaf:name ?name
15:01:22 <LeeF>   }
15:02:09 <sdas2> missing }
15:02:15 <LeeF> whoops =)
15:03:14 <AndyS> { ?x :q ?v . OPTIONAL { ?x :p ?w } }
15:03:15 <AndyS> { ?x :q ?v . OPTIONAL { ?y :p ?w FILTER(?x = ?y) } }
15:04:58 <LeeF> 10 01{ ?v :q ?x . OPTIONAL { ?w :p ?y FILTER(?x = ?y) } }
15:05:51 <SimonR> D'oh!
15:06:49 <patH> sounds like we all violently agree.
15:10:24 <LeeF> PROPOSED: FILTERs in the right-hand side of an OPTIONAL are scoped to include the left-hand side as well
15:10:41 <LeeF> seconded.
15:11:05 <kendallclark> Souri abstaining
15:11:11 <LeeF> approved, souri abstaining
15:11:19 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 5
15:11:19 <Zakim> agendum 5, FILTER interaction with OPTIONAL/LeftJoin, closed
15:11:21 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:11:21 <Zakim> 6. ericP's response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html [from LeeF]
15:11:22 <LeeF> zakim, next agendum
15:11:22 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ericP's response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html" taken up [from LeeF]
15:11:56 <ericP> [[
15:11:56 <ericP> The faceted navigation product that my company sells generates RDF
15:11:56 <ericP> queries that cannot be expressed in SPARQL because they frequently
15:11:56 <ericP> use an OR connective that includes both statements and filters within
15:11:56 <ericP> the disjuncts.
15:11:59 <ericP> ]]
15:12:01 <ericP>   - example of such a query not expressible in SPARQL?
15:13:23 <ericP> recursive syntax
15:13:23 <ericP>   - do you mean SUBSELECTs?
15:13:52 <sdas2> The link does not work for me.
15:14:28 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html
15:14:31 <LeeF> that one, Souri ?
15:14:35 <ericP> closed world semantics
15:14:35 <ericP>   - specific examples that are specifically precluded by the open-world semantics
15:14:44 <kendallclark> *closed*-world semantics are impractical?
15:14:50 <kendallclark> isn't the the opposite of what one usually hears?
15:14:52 <sdas2> nevermind
15:14:54 <kendallclark> ah good :)
15:15:13 <sdas2> Thanks Lee
15:15:18 <LeeF> yw
15:15:40 <LeeF> [[
15:15:45 <LeeF> - The UNBOUND operator is inherently procedural in a fully-expressive 
15:15:45 <LeeF> logic language.  In PowerLoom, we added a "Prolog-mode" (we didn't 
15:15:45 <LeeF> call it that) when we used operators that couldn't be reordered by 
15:15:45 <LeeF> the query optimizer.  The WHERE/FILTER blotch is inherently procedural, 
15:15:45 <LeeF> which solves the problem, but in a bad way.
15:15:46 <LeeF> ]]
15:16:59 <ericP> If my recollection SPARQL omits n-ary computed predicates (implementing
15:17:01 <ericP> only n-ary functions).
15:17:55 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 5
15:17:55 <Zakim> agendum 5, FILTER interaction with OPTIONAL/LeftJoin, closed
15:17:57 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:17:58 <Zakim> 6. ericP's response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html [from LeeF]
15:18:03 <LeeF> zakim, close agendum 6
15:18:03 <Zakim> agendum 6, ericP's response to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Nov/0004.html, closed
15:18:05 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:18:14 <SimonR> Didn't the SWBP group publish a Note about how do deal with N-ary predicates...?  (Can't recall for certain.)
15:18:23 <SimonR> ...to deal...
15:18:24 <patH> yes it did.
15:18:25 <kendallclark> and for doing a good job today :)
15:19:11 <Zakim> -sdas2
15:19:14 <SimonR> I think it wouldn't hurt to have, say, syntactic sugar for something useful like N-ary predicates.  We do enough for collections and containers, for instance.
15:19:16 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:19:25 <LeeF> kendallclark, two things:
15:19:26 <kendallclark> ericp: will you do the minutes magic so I can prep them?
15:19:30 <LeeF> 1) ...
15:19:32 <LeeF> that was one
15:19:38 <ericP> zakim, please draft minutes
15:19:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please draft minutes', ericP
15:19:44 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/12-dawg-minutes.html AndyS
15:19:46 <LeeF> 2) can we setup a time to talk on the phone about process stuff ?
15:19:58 <AndyS> rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
15:20:02 <patH> zakim, we hate you.
15:20:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'we hate you', patH
15:20:14 <kendallclark> Leef: sure... you can just call me during the day whenever
15:20:15 <Zakim> -PatH
15:20:18 <kendallclark> or we can do it n ow?
15:20:25 <kendallclark> i'm still on thecall... can you call back?
15:20:29 <Zakim> -SimonR
15:20:32 <kendallclark> i can do like 20 minutes right now
15:20:57 <LeeF> give me a direct number and I'll give you a call
15:21:12 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
15:21:15 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:21:17 <Zakim> -ericP
15:21:18 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
15:21:19 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, AndyS, ericP, +1.603.459.aaaa, Kendall_Clark, sdas2, SimonR, PatH
15:21:21 <AndyS> AndyS has left #dawg
15:26:25 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #dawg
17:24:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg