IRC log of mmsem on 2006-12-08

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-irc

11:45:53 [Jacco]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-mmsem/2006Dec/0014.html

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rrsagent, draft minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html Jacco

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zakim, list conferences

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I see no active conferences and none scheduled near this time

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Jacco has changed the topic to: MMSEM Athens F2F Meeting

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Meeting: MMSEM Athens F2F Meeting, December 8-9 2006

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html Jacco

12:02:29 [raphael]

Chair: Jeff, Raphael

12:09:01 [raphael]

Good afternoon everybody

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Present: Giorgos Stamou, Susanne Boll, Sofia, Stamatia, Chrisa Tsinsaraki, Paola, Oscar, Eric, Tobias, Michael, Thierry, Tomas, Ioannis, Raphael, Jeff, Vassilis

12:14:34 [raphael]

Jeff open the meeting

12:14:45 [raphael]

We have problems to connect to Zakim ...

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Scribe: Raphael

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Jeff talk about the possibilities in the future, and mention the opportunity of having a WG

12:17:40 [raphael]

... smooth transition between an XG to a WG

12:18:54 [raphael]

... will be a topic of discussion tomorrow

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... the previous XG (content labeling) is trying to become a WG

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I'm trying to scribe

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Topic: 1. Music Recommendation Use Case

12:25:43 [raphael]

Oscar Celma is

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an official new invited expert

12:26:42 [raphael]

Introduction: personal music collections have grown

12:28:00 [raphael]

Music information Place: Audio (music recording), Text (lyrics), Video (video clips, CD covers)

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Song metadata includes editorial, acoustic and cultural information

12:29:30 [raphael]

Users are represented by their profiles including demographic, geographic and psychographic information

12:30:27 [raphael]

Use case

12:32:06 [raphael]

Metadata initiatives for describing Audio Content

12:33:12 [raphael]

ID3 v2, OGG, APE v2, MusicBrainz 2.1 (RDF data not yet supported)

12:33:23 [raphael]

see vocabularies page

12:33:48 [raphael]

ID3, OGG and APE are tag based (free attribute value pairs)

12:34:20 [raphael]

All these approaches focus on editorial information

12:36:01 [raphael]

Audio Ontologies (in OWL)

12:36:18 [raphael]

Kanzaki, Music Production, Music Recommendation

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See vocabularies

12:37:45 [raphael]

OGG Vorbis example

12:37:57 [raphael]

Interoperability problems and solutions:

12:39:07 [raphael]

... Two general approaches: 1/ integration at RDF level (song, artist instances) ; 2/ ontology mapping ?

12:42:50 [raphael]

... but there is no really ontologies

12:43:01 [raphael]

Concrete example, see code in the wiki

12:45:13 [raphael]

Idea: take the commonalities between all the proposed tags by these schema (ID3, OGG, etc.)

12:45:47 [raphael]

Vassilis: for which reasons the ontology has been made ?

12:46:37 [raphael]

ID3 tags are inside the audio file

12:48:04 [raphael]

Jeff: is there some conflicting name between the various schemas ?

12:49:39 [raphael]

Advantages: possible scenarios ?

12:50:06 [raphael]

Create personalized playlists ... exploit song metadata (RDF), plous user profile

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s/plous/plus

12:51:23 [raphael]

Upcoming gigs (user FOAF profile, geonames, RDF data about the venues and events

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Simplify navigation in music collections through personalized views

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integrate RDF music data into /facet

12:54:45 [raphael]

EM is Erik Mannens

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Semi-automatic annotation of music

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(link with the tagging use case)

12:56:50 [raphael]

Semantic podcast

12:58:42 [raphael]

Mention a wikilyrics that could have a webservice for getting the lyricsof a song

13:00:14 [raphael]

Paola: relation between a consumer and buisness; why not B2B ?

13:04:18 [raphael]

Oscar: it is possible

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Future Plans:

13:05:33 [raphael]

search for commonalities between the various schema, build under the Music Recommendation ontology

13:05:49 [raphael]

Do a ID3 to RDF translation

13:06:38 [raphael]

ACTION: Oscar and Jacco to provide a first implementation by Christmas

13:06:58 [raphael]

ACTION: Paola to provide a possible B2B scenario

13:07:31 [raphael]

Topic: 2. News Use Case (Thierry Declerk)

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ScribeNick: mhausenblas

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Raphael: General introduction, NewsML, XBRL. UC will focus on financial domain.

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Thierry explains the 'Metadata Labels

13:15:11 [mhausenblas]

... TITLE tag contains a list (even sentence) of keywords

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... not sure if keywords stem from a controlled vocabulary

13:17:19 [raphael]

rrsagent, draft minutes

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Translating XBRL into Description Logic

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Information about companie, profit and loss, etc.

13:21:36 [mhausenblas]

ScribeNick: mhausenblas

13:23:48 [raphael]

Possible application: expose NewsML information in RDF

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Raphael: Combine (lightweight) NewsML with XBRL descriptions

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link them with RDF version of XBRL and DownJonesML

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B2B scenario

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Challenge: merging all the data

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Jeff: Concrete Examples?

13:26:00 [mhausenblas]

Raphael: Hopefully 01/2007 real world data should be available

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... Chirs HW is in touch with DowJones

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s/Chirs/Chris

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Raphael: Any contribution is welcome. Michael will try to get some real world examples from NM2

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ACTION: Raphael, Therry, and Chris to sync UC Wiki description with their new focus (financial domain)

13:35:08 [mhausenblas]

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13:36:00 [mhausenblas]

Paola: How about using Reuters test corpus?

13:36:59 [mhausenblas]

ACTION: Paola to supply XG with reference to corpus and usage license till next week.

13:37:49 [mhausenblas]

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/08-mmsem-minutes.html mhausenblas

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Back after the coffee break

14:07:47 [raphael]

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14:08:07 [raphael]

Topic: 3. MPEG-7 Use Case (Stamatia)

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14:13:39 [raphael]

Chrisa Tsinaraki will join this use case

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Motivation: MPEG-7 is a set of XML schemas

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... lack of explicit and precise semantics

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... effort to attach formal semantics to mpeg7 (ontologies)

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Example 1: semantically identically metadata can be represented in multiple ways

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Example 2: image representation in itself as a multimedia entity can be performed in multiple ways was well

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s/was/as

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Example 3: a video segment can be a frame, a shot, a program

14:18:44 [raphael]

Example 4: loose meaning of decomposition: not part/whole semantics

14:18:56 [raphael]

Approaches:

14:19:35 [raphael]

Hunter: initially in DAML+OIL and then RDFS and OWL

14:19:44 [raphael]

... link to the ABC core model

14:20:15 [raphael]

... decomposition is captured using subclass constructs

14:21:01 [raphael]

raphel: actually, the result of the decomposition, the segment !!!

14:21:28 [raphael]

no formal axioms: an image cannot be decomposed temporally

14:21:51 [raphael]

SMARTWeb approach: same problem, no such axioms

14:22:39 [raphael]

Tsinaraki: translation of MPEG-7 MDS into OWL

14:24:51 [raphael]

Example whith the variations between Tsinaraki and Hunter ontologies

14:25:41 [raphael]

Possible solutions: 1/ mappings between the various ontologies ; 2/ buil a core ontology ? ; 3/ formalize the profiles

14:25:49 [raphael]

s/buil/build

14:26:39 [raphael]

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14:27:49 [raphael]

Scribenick: raphael

14:30:00 [raphael]

Chrisa presents the DS-MIRF framework

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14:32:42 [raphael]

Transformations from OWL/RDF to MPEG-7/21 in both ways

14:33:21 [raphael]

use of a reconstruction ontology: introducing the ordering of the elements, the default values

14:35:45 [raphael]

the solution of the use case could be based on Chrisa approach

14:37:01 [ocelma]

+1 too!

14:38:03 [raphael]

Sophia and Chrisa will join this use case

14:40:32 [raphael]

PB: nobody knows a use of some MPEG-7 ontologies ...

14:40:53 [raphael]

Raphael: why using these two ontologies ?

14:41:24 [raphael]

Vassilis: we do not focus on these two ontologies but rather on the mechanism for bridging multimedia ontologies

14:42:38 [raphael]

Michael: what this use case is about ?

14:42:59 [raphael]

Vassilis: there is various MPEG-7 ontologies

14:45:37 [raphael]

Oscar: propose to add a new document focusing on MPEG-7

14:45:50 [raphael]

... taking the part in the vocabularies deliverable

14:48:03 [raphael]

Raphael: why not making a new document ?

14:48:37 [ocelma]

that's what I meant! :-)

14:49:36 [mhausenblas]

+1 , volunteer for creating it ...

14:50:57 [ocelma]

+1 to contribute it (with Roberto Garcia, I hope!), once its created.

14:51:44 [raphael]

+1 to contribute too

14:52:45 [raphael]

Yannis: establish mappings between this multimedia ontologies and the existing vocabularies (FOAF, DC, ...)

14:54:28 [raphael]

... would be more lessons learned that can be further used rather than an example of a use case

14:59:18 [raphael]

Proposal: to take off MPEG-7 from the use case list and make a new standalone document

14:59:34 [mhausenblas]

+1

14:59:45 [raphael]

this document will focus on MPEG-7, the various ontologies, and their interoperability problems

15:01:12 [raphael]

ACTION: Vassilis, Raphael, Oscar, Michael, Stamatia to set up a new Deliverabe

15:01:29 [raphael]

s/Deliverabe/Deliverable

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Thierry and all DFKI will join this deliverable

15:03:18 [raphael]

Topic: 4. Photo Use Case

15:03:28 [mhausenblas]

s/all/Paul and Massimo at

15:05:13 [raphael]

Susanne Boll presents the use case

15:05:35 [raphael]

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15:05:35 [RRSAgent]

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15:06:25 [raphael]

Photos: today (pixel-based + additional information)

15:06:37 [raphael]

tomorrow: capture and derive semantics annotation

15:07:16 [raphael]

What we want to know about photos: who, when, where, how long, weather, place, location, surrounding, company, quality, what I did, moud

15:08:15 [raphael]

Is tagging enough ?

15:08:57 [raphael]

there is not unique reasonable description scheme for photos (EXIF, photoRDF, IPTC)

15:09:44 [raphael]

photo undergo cross-platform distribution search

15:12:22 [raphael]

need for low-level features

15:13:12 [raphael]

Yiannis: MPEG-A about photo collections

15:13:43 [mhausenblas]

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/technologies/mpa-pp/index.htm

15:14:18 [raphael]

need for context and content

15:15:05 [ocelma]

(similar as Music UC)

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Existing standards: EXIF, IPTC, PhotoRDF, FOAF, DC, MPEG-7

15:16:52 [raphael]

jacky?98

15:17:28 [raphael]

s/jacky?98/...

15:18:01 [raphael]

Interoperability problems:

15:18:18 [raphael]

... metadata preservation and enrichment

15:18:30 [raphael]

... centralized vs decentralized storage

15:18:52 [raphael]

... lacking lean but comprehensive standard

15:24:55 [raphael]

What could be the solution ?

15:27:30 [raphael]

Face recognition is really important, as well as Event (using potentially contextual information)

15:33:54 [raphael]

Propose to have a standard way to include in the photo a link towards the description

15:34:11 [raphael]

... so that photo application system can use the metadata to do ... cool stuff :-)

15:34:17 [raphael]

What kind of metadata ?

15:35:25 [raphael]

Focus on EXIF, a standard for visual features, a vocabulary for the content ...

15:35:40 [raphael]

Raphael: will you use RDF at all ?

15:35:51 [raphael]

Susanne: I'm not against, but not big fan !

15:36:00 [raphael]

... my concern is about the size of the description

15:37:50 [raphael]

Erik will join this use case

15:40:27 [raphael]

rrsagent, draft minutes

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15:42:13 [raphael]

ACTION: Susanne to look again in the various systems and standards and identify 3-4 standards that together could be the solution

15:43:39 [raphael]

Topic: 5. Multimedia Authoring Use Case

15:44:13 [raphael]

SMIL, SVG, Flash, SMIL BLP, SVG Tiny

15:45:17 [raphael]

Example of a SMIL document

15:46:05 [raphael]

Problem: you use metadata in the select and assemble processes, but there is a semantics barriers

15:46:25 [raphael]

... as soon as you transform it in SMIL or in Flash ... you loose the metadata !

15:48:34 [raphael]

What is lost: structural information is hidden in the format of the presentation, emergent semantics when authoring

15:49:09 [raphael]

What is needed: making discourse and structural information explicit for search and access to documents and fragments

15:49:49 [raphael]

Existing standards: LOM (Learning Objects metadata) and SMIL metadata module

15:50:20 [raphael]

Multimedia documents hide almost everything ... no description for search

15:50:35 [raphael]

... an annotation problem, as well as an interoperability

15:57:47 [raphael]

Proposal: is this use case a clear open issue ?

15:59:08 [raphael]

... no solutions seem exist

15:59:17 [raphael]

... we all clearly see the problems

15:59:32 [raphael]

... but not the solutions

15:59:49 [raphael]

... susanne will continue to edit her thoughts on the wiki

16:00:30 [raphael]

rrsagent, draft minutes

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ACTION: Erik to remind Susanne about what is this standard your group has developped !

16:12:32 [raphael]

Topic: 6. Semantic Media Retrieval Use Case

16:13:38 [raphael]

Tobias will join the previous use case (Multimedia Authoring)

16:14:55 [raphael]

Ioannis Pratikakis

16:15:05 [raphael]

(From the Analysis Perspective)

16:15:52 [raphael]

Deal with semantic interoperability for automatic media interpretation / understanding

16:16:06 [raphael]

linking of low-level features to high level semantics

16:17:45 [raphael]

Example 1: lack of semantics in low-level descriptors (single media)

16:18:01 [raphael]

Example 2: interchange of semantics between media (multiple media)

16:18:53 [raphael]

This use case related to interchange of low-level descriptors for semantic interpretation

16:20:01 [raphael]

... exchanging classifiers is more interesting that exchanging descriptors

16:20:36 [raphael]

... MPEG-7 is useful for content-based retrieval

16:20:47 [raphael]

... but not for any semantic access

16:24:21 [raphael]

Interoperability problems

16:25:53 [raphael]

A user might want to exchange class descriptions between an imaging device, a set-top box, etc ... the process should be exchanged

16:26:05 [raphael]

Solution:

16:26:21 [raphael]

exchange classifier parameters, and class descriptions

16:28:31 [raphael]

sketch of solution: multimedia core ontology, media descriptor ontology, classifier ontology, domain ontology

16:29:52 [raphael]

Raphael: sounds really close to the algorithm use case

16:32:10 [raphael]

Example contained in the use cases

16:32:24 [raphael]

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16:41:11 [raphael]

Vassilis: sounds like more a fusion problem that an interoperability problems

16:43:59 [raphael]

... will be discussed more tomorrow with the algorithm use case

16:44:07 [raphael]

... seems to have a lot of overlap

16:45:33 [raphael]

That close the meeting

16:48:51 [raphael]

Meeting starts tomorrow at 9:30 Greek time !!!!

16:48:54 [raphael]

See you tomorrow

16:49:00 [raphael]

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