IRC log of dawg on 2006-11-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:26:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:26:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc
14:26:07 [LeeF]
that message has very confusing semantics
14:26:11 [jeen]
pfft. no qualified names....
14:26:32 [AndyS]
I'm qualified.
14:27:07 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ convene, boot up
14:27:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:27:21 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ action items (this is prolly a no-op)
14:27:21 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:27:23 [AndyS]
Meeting: RDF Data Access WG meeting
14:27:30 [AndyS]
Chair: Kendall Clark
14:27:37 [AndyS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0166
14:27:44 [AndyS]
Scribe: Andy Seaborne
14:27:49 [AndyS]
ScribeNick: AndyS
14:28:41 [LeeF]
Zakim, code?
14:28:41 [Zakim]
sorry, LeeF, I don't know what conference this is
14:28:47 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:28:47 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF, I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM already started
14:28:50 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
14:28:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), LeeF
14:29:00 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:29:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P4
14:29:09 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P4 is me
14:29:09 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:29:36 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:29:37 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:29:39 [kendallclark]
after 3 years, i forget the code! :)
14:29:40 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:29:40 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:29:46 [jeen]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:29:46 [Zakim]
+jeen; got it
14:29:47 [Zakim]
+Kendall_Clark
14:29:49 [kendallclark]
2, 3, wahtever it's been
14:29:59 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:29:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Kendall_Clark
14:30:14 [AndyS]
It's RDFF.
14:30:19 [kendallclark]
heh
14:30:23 [kendallclark]
i didn't know that!
14:31:46 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:31:54 [AndyS]
KC: little email traffic for 2 weeks leads to a short agenda each week
14:31:57 [ericP]
zakim, Sandro is ericP
14:31:58 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
14:32:42 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ test suite
14:32:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:32:55 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:33:25 [AndyS]
Also: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24-algebra.html
14:33:43 [kendallclark]
agenda+ duplicate answers
14:33:43 [AndyS]
EricP: Q about duplictae answers and bNodes in BGPs
14:34:07 [Zakim]
+PatH
14:34:16 [kendallclark]
agenda+ algebra updates
14:34:44 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda?
14:34:44 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:34:45 [Zakim]
1. convene, boot up [from kendallclark]
14:34:46 [Zakim]
2. action items (this is prolly a no-op) [from kendallclark]
14:34:47 [Zakim]
3. test suite [from kendallclark]
14:34:48 [Zakim]
4. duplicate answers [from kendallclark]
14:34:49 [Zakim]
5. algebra updates [from kendallclark]
14:35:03 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:35:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
14:35:16 [AndyS]
Present: AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
14:35:25 [AndyS]
Regrets: none so far
14:35:36 [kendallclark]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/att-0167/21-dawg-minutes.html
14:35:36 [AndyS]
... Elias will be along soon.
14:36:13 [AndyS]
Minutes accepted.
14:36:31 [AndyS]
RESOLVED to accept the minutes of Nov 21.
14:36:50 [AndyS]
AndyS available.
14:36:57 [AndyS]
Pat (for some of the time)
14:37:06 [AndyS]
Eric notes it's during XML2006.
14:37:28 [AndyS]
Scribe: EricP
14:37:35 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:37:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "action items (this is prolly a no-op)" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:37:36 [AndyS]
Scribe next time: EricP
14:37:51 [kendallclark]
ACTION: ericP to bring up test on bags for next meeting.
14:38:07 [kendallclark]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification on http://www.w3.org/mod/20061110085518567.00000002912@bmacgregor1
14:38:09 [AndyS]
DONE
14:38:19 [AndyS]
DONE action 1
14:38:39 [AndyS]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification on http://www.w3.org/mod/20061110085518567.00000002912@bmacgregor1
14:38:42 [AndyS]
CONTINUES
14:38:52 [AndyS]
(scribe will clear the mess up later :-)
14:39:12 [kendallclark]
ACTION: KendallC to close formsOfDistinct issue
14:39:25 [kendallclark]
ACTION: PatH to review the proposed tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169 and say yay or nay
14:39:45 [kendallclark]
PatH to draft replacement vanilla entailment section for WG consideration
14:39:51 [AndyS]
ACTION: PatH to draft replacement vanilla entailment section for WG consideration
14:40:01 [AndyS]
CONTINUES
14:40:27 [AndyS]
Related : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0140.html
14:40:50 [kendallclark]
ACTION: KendallC to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put to the question (re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html )
14:41:18 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene, boot up" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:41:20 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, kendallclark
14:41:25 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:41:25 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "test suite" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:42:10 [AndyS]
KC: An output of the WG
14:42:34 [AndyS]
... issue is now where we are in procss terms on this. Figure out where we go next.
14:43:43 [patH]
Jeen said 'eep'
14:43:55 [kendallclark]
which i tried to turn into "yes"
14:45:06 [AndyS]
Lee: does Eric / Andy have a timeline for the QL spec?
14:45:08 [kendallclark]
EliasT: where you going to work on test suite?
14:45:56 [jeen]
(dunno what's wrong) anyway, I'd be happy to spend time on test suite, particularly on isolating a set of tests specifically for use in testing a SPARQL parser implementation and a SPARQL engine implementation. Mostly that means sorting out old tests, etc.
14:46:53 [AndyS]
AndyS: timeline - algebra mostly there -need integration into doc.
14:47:17 [AndyS]
... discussion on the algebra can be now.
14:47:25 [AndyS]
... integration wil be in the new year.
14:47:56 [AndyS]
... test suite process can be done now - most tests not affected.
14:48:34 [AndyS]
KC: Need a process owner.
14:48:53 [ericP]
we need a mom
14:48:58 [AndyS]
... coordinate work as the chair changes (swivels?)
14:49:01 [ericP]
well, the tests do
14:49:21 [AndyS]
Lee: will talk to Elias.
14:49:54 [jeen]
ok, I give up.
14:50:08 [patH]
Jeen might try tapping out morse.
14:50:10 [AndyS]
I've been using a test suite for the algebra and have some new corner cases (just 3) Rest of tests went through fine.
14:50:33 [AndyS]
KC: Thinks Jeen is agreeing to be the owner
14:50:41 [kendallclark]
wonderful
14:50:44 [AndyS]
... Jeen agrees to take the lead.
14:50:44 [EliasT]
I was working on the "protocol" test suite and be of help to jeen as I last recalled.
14:50:45 [LeeF]
AndyS, when you say "rest of tests", what exactly do you mean? (considering that some tests seem to be completely broken?)
14:51:11 [AndyS]
All the DAWG tests I think are valid (approved and unapproved) + my own.
14:51:23 [LeeF]
I see.
14:51:26 [AndyS]
~ 500.
14:52:23 [jeen]
ok but I don't know a deadline
14:52:27 [AndyS]
??? ACTION: Jeen propose test suite process.
14:52:32 [jeen]
ah ok
14:52:42 [AndyS]
... does not imply "do it all"
14:52:49 [jeen]
phew :)
14:52:54 [AndyS]
ACTION: Jeen propose test suite process (not do it all).
14:53:00 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:53:00 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "duplicate answers" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:53:08 [kendallclark]
zakim, agendum?
14:53:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
14:53:13 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda?
14:53:13 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:53:14 [Zakim]
1. convene, boot up [from kendallclark]
14:53:15 [Zakim]
3. test suite [from kendallclark]
14:53:16 [Zakim]
4. duplicate answers [from kendallclark]
14:53:17 [Zakim]
5. algebra updates [from kendallclark]
14:53:41 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-bnode-type-var
14:54:01 [AndyS]
EricP: bad laptop
14:54:12 [kendallclark]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0164.html
14:54:18 [patH]
Im having trouble hearing Eric.
14:54:19 [kendallclark]
start of the thread
14:54:41 [AndyS]
q+ (after Eric finishes) to ask Pat about existentials and counting
14:54:50 [AndyS]
q+ to ask Pat about existentials and counting
14:55:00 [AndyS]
(after Eric finishes)
14:55:13 [patH]
I can't folow the audio at this point.
14:55:44 [kendallclark]
it's hard to hear Eric today
14:55:49 [kendallclark]
ack AndyS
14:55:49 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask Pat about existentials and counting
14:56:25 [AndyS]
Data: { :a :p 1. :a :p 2 .}
14:56:39 [AndyS]
Query: :a :p []
14:56:48 [AndyS]
Query: ?a :p []
14:57:14 [AndyS]
Q is whether you get one answer or two?
14:57:50 [AndyS]
Query: ?a :p ?v
14:57:53 [ericP]
:a or :a, :a
14:58:55 [ericP]
(compare to (:a 1) vs, (:a 1),(:a 2))
14:58:57 [LeeF]
What do current implementations do? (Mine treats bnodes as unprojected variables.)
14:59:10 [ericP]
mine does as well
14:59:10 [jeen]
That's what we do as well
14:59:17 [AndyS]
ARQ can do either - but woudl like a decision :-)
14:59:27 [AndyS]
Pat: instinct - get two
14:59:30 [LeeF]
ARQ is so wishy-washy ;-)
15:00:59 [LeeF]
I wonder who (specific orgs or general communities) will object to treating blank nodes as unprojected variables -- Will the DL community object to that?
15:01:18 [kendallclark]
(I don't think it will.)
15:01:54 [AndyS]
I think we are defining for simple entailment only. DL replaces the whole of BGP matching with what it wants. There is no overall constraints on dups.
15:01:59 [kendallclark]
(well, it won't if that can be made compatible w/ sparql-dl, which doesn't exist yet except in people's heads)
15:02:04 [LeeF]
Oh right, Andy, thanks.
15:02:16 [AndyS]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0140
15:03:04 [ericP]
+1 on duplicates for many reasons
15:03:39 [AndyS]
Pat: duplicates make no difference to semantics.
15:03:58 [AndyS]
... reports Bijan woudl be happy with that (absence of DISTINCT)
15:04:41 [AndyS]
KC: hers agreement
15:04:44 [AndyS]
KC: hears agreement
15:05:01 [ericP]
perhaps approve the test first
15:05:19 [kendallclark]
first or second, no matter, i think
15:07:12 [AndyS]
This editor is informed by the consensus hear
15:07:40 [AndyS]
AndyS: wil try to incorporate Jorge's style of approach: wil wait for Pat's text.
15:08:00 [ericP]
PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-bnode-type-var
15:08:33 [LeeF]
Seconded.
15:08:46 [jeen]
Seconded
15:08:52 [ericP]
steve and andy have both tried it in their impls
15:09:41 [ericP]
or at least, that's the feedback i got a while ago
15:09:46 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:09:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, jeen, LeeF, Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
15:09:59 [AndyS]
Goods OK to me (scanning the HTML)
15:10:12 [AndyS]
RESOLVED
15:10:16 [kendallclark]
0 abstensions or objections
15:11:32 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda
15:11:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', kendallclark
15:11:34 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda?
15:11:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:11:35 [Zakim]
1. convene, boot up [from kendallclark]
15:11:37 [Zakim]
3. test suite [from kendallclark]
15:11:38 [Zakim]
4. duplicate answers [from kendallclark]
15:11:39 [Zakim]
5. algebra updates [from kendallclark]
15:11:52 [ericP]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:11:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene, boot up" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:12:02 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:12:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "algebra updates" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:12:07 [kendallclark]
eric: i hate zakim! :)
15:12:24 [ericP]
andy: am hppy with structure. looking for comments on the design
15:12:25 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24-algebra.html
15:13:45 [ericP]
i think i can fix the last query publication CSS
15:15:06 [ericP]
i"m afraid to commit
15:15:15 [AndyS]
CSS changes don't change the semantics :-)
15:15:15 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to review http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24-algebra.html
15:15:43 [jeen]
uhm.... (closes eyes, takes deep breath) yes, action me.
15:16:05 [AndyS]
ACTION: Jeen review rq24-algebra
15:17:08 [ericP]
+1 to adjourn
15:17:17 [AndyS]
ADJOURN
15:17:27 [AndyS]
Meet next time - one week - Eric to scribe
15:17:30 [jeen]
ok, seeya all.
15:17:34 [kendallclark]
ciao
15:17:36 [Zakim]
-PatH
15:17:37 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please draft the minutes
15:17:37 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft the minutes', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:17:40 [Zakim]
-Kendall_Clark
15:17:41 [patH]
byebyee
15:17:45 [AndyS]
rrsagent, draft the minutes
15:17:45 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft the minutes', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:17:54 [Zakim]
-LeeF
15:18:07 [ericP]
zakim, log?
15:18:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ericP.
15:18:21 [ericP]
zakim, please draft minutes
15:18:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please draft minutes', ericP
15:18:23 [Zakim]
-jeen
15:18:29 [ericP]
zakim, please ...
15:18:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please', ericP
15:18:31 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world readable
15:18:31 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make logs world readable', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:18:47 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
15:19:12 [AndyS]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:19:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-minutes.html AndyS
15:21:08 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please leave
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-actions.rdf :
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to bring up test on bags for next meeting. [1]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-37-51
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification on http://www.w3.org/mod/20061110085518567.00000002912@bmacgregor1 [2]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-38-07
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to seek clarification on http://www.w3.org/mod/20061110085518567.00000002912@bmacgregor1 [3]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-38-39
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KendallC to close formsOfDistinct issue [4]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-39-12
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PatH to review the proposed tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169 and say yay or nay [5]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-39-25
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PatH to draft replacement vanilla entailment section for WG consideration [6]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-39-51
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KendallC to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should be put to the question (re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html ) [7]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-40-50
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeen propose test suite process (not do it all). [8]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T14-52-54
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: LeeF to review http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24-algebra.html [9]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T15-15-15-1
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeen review rq24-algebra [10]
15:21:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/28-dawg-irc#T15-16-05
15:21:16 [AndyS]
zakim, please leave
15:21:16 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were AndyS, LeeF, jeen, Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
15:21:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
15:21:18 [ericP]
cheers