IRC log of grddl-wg on 2006-11-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:24:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:24:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:46:56 [danja]
danja has joined #grddl-wg
15:47:05 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
15:51:53 [danja]
whoah - skype worked first time!
15:52:03 [HarryH]
15:55:39 [danja]
I had this morning set aside for grddl coding - then got up to find a hole in the office floor
15:56:24 [danja]
I'd have preferred to do the software kind of building...
15:57:25 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #grddl-wg
15:57:35 [HarryH]
That's okay - the building I'm has just had the lower level flooded, so an irritated secretary wants me not to be on the phone right now :)
15:57:45 [HarryH]
Luckily I'm on the second floor!
15:57:49 [danja]
15:58:01 [danja]
time of year for such things mayber
15:58:37 [HarryH]
Does anyone want to scribe?
15:58:42 [HarryH]
IanD sent regrets.
15:59:29 [HarryH]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:29 [Zakim]
sorry, HarryH, I don't know what conference this is
15:59:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see chimezie, HarryH, danja, RRSAgent, Zakim, fgandon, DanC
15:59:34 [HarryH]
Zakim this is grddl
15:59:43 [HarryH]
Zakim, this is GRDDL
15:59:50 [Zakim]
ok, HarryH; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
16:00:00 [Zakim]
16:00:07 [HarryH]
zakim, read agenda from
16:00:07 [Zakim]
working on it, HarryH
16:00:10 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-11-22T11:00-0500
16:00:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
16:00:14 [Zakim]
agenda+ Cross-document Introduction
16:00:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
16:00:18 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:00:20 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
16:00:22 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML
16:00:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
16:00:32 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML
16:00:34 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
16:00:36 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
16:00:38 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
16:00:40 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-base-param]
16:00:42 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
16:00:44 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer Document
16:00:46 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
16:00:48 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: General issues
16:00:50 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
16:00:52 [Zakim]
agenda+ schedule
16:00:54 [Zakim]
agendum 10 added
16:00:56 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, HarryH
16:01:15 [Zakim]
16:01:16 [Zakim]
16:01:30 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P2, DanC, [Sophia], Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:01:32 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
16:01:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-11-22T11:00-0500" taken up
16:01:45 [DanC]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is DannyA
16:01:45 [Zakim]
+DannyA; got it
16:01:47 [HarryH]
Zakim, ??P2 is really HarryH
16:01:47 [Zakim]
+HarryH; got it
16:02:01 [DanC]
Zakim, [Sophia] is FabienG
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+FabienG; got it
16:02:05 [DanC]
Regrets: IanD
16:02:17 [HarryH]
Regrets: BenA, BrianS
16:02:35 [HarryH]
We need a scribe!
16:02:41 [bwm]
bwm has joined #grddl-wg
16:02:45 [DanC]
Regrets: IanD, BenA, BrianS
16:02:53 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:53 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HarryH
16:02:57 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:57 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FabienG
16:03:12 [HarryH]
Chair: HarryH
16:03:18 [HarryH]
Scribe: fgandon
16:03:41 [DanC]
ACTION: Harry to send info about WWW2007 GRDDL tutorial [DONE]
16:03:42 [Zakim]
16:03:53 [bwm]
zakim, ??p25 is bwm
16:03:54 [DanC]
-> minutes 15 Nov
16:03:58 [Zakim]
+bwm; got it
16:03:58 [fgandon]
Approved minutes of the last meeting.
16:04:03 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DannyA, HarryH, DanC, FabienG, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bwm
16:04:15 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: is a true record of Nov 15th meeeting
16:04:55 [fgandon]
About the tutorial
16:05:00 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:05:00 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
16:05:36 [DanC]
agenda + applications: RDFa, hCard, ...
16:05:43 [fgandon]
HH: currently talking with ben about join tutorial with RDFa
16:05:55 [HarryH]
Waiting for initiative from BenA
16:06:55 [fgandon]
Brian: is ok with comments on cross-intro
16:07:03 [fgandon]
fabien : not read yet
16:08:16 [fgandon]
DanC: I would like wording to be suggested.
16:08:51 [HarryH]
ACTION: Danja to suggest wording changes in light of recent comment cross-document introduction
16:08:58 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:08:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:09:55 [fgandon]
Danny: didn't have time yet to work on it but should be done by christmas
16:10:07 [HarryH]
16:11:42 [DanC]
test materials are v 1.1 2006/11/01 07:44:09
16:11:51 [fgandon]
Brian: any implementation?
16:12:17 [DanC]
... and
16:12:23 [fgandon]
DanC : yes 3 of them. every implementation I know have run this test case.
16:13:42 [fgandon]
DanC: this is not a namespace test case.
16:14:33 [fgandon]
Chimezie: in a lot of cases you spend time dereferencing namespaces you don't really need.
16:15:41 [fgandon]
Harry: consensus on this test case approved
16:15:57 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: is a correct and proper test case.
16:15:58 [fgandon]
RESOLVE: test case approved
16:16:18 [HarryH]
16:17:41 [fgandon]
DanC: test on RDF from spreadsheet tools
16:18:08 [fgandon]
Chimezie: I haven't run this one.
16:18:26 [fgandon]
DanC: I ran all o the 5 test cases
16:18:57 [fgandon]
DanC: we should wait for other testers to run this test
16:20:08 [DanC]
16:20:14 [fgandon]
ACTION: Chimezie to verify
16:20:18 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: is a correct and proper test case .
16:20:49 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: update test manifest to show these 2 tests approved
16:22:05 [HarryH]
danja: "information resource" - kinda weird. Stephen King didn't write the page.
16:22:35 [danja]
(not danja - bwm?)
16:22:55 [DanC]
(the page is a representation of something stephen king wrote, IMO)
16:23:23 [fgandon]
ACTION: Brian to have a closer look at the Stephen King example in the spec
16:23:42 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:23:42 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
16:24:25 [DanC]
16:25:42 [fgandon]
Harry: Normans Gray's issue "error behaviour: The GRDDL spec doesn't say what a GRDDL processor should do if fed something which isn't one of these media types [text/xml, application/xml, and */*+xml], or which purports to be but isn't, or isn't well-formed."
16:27:18 [fgandon]
DanC: the spec is written in terms of XPath so (...)
16:28:38 [DanC]
-> grddl with pre-XHTML HTML input 26 Jul 2006
16:29:44 [fgandon]
Danja: there are many pages out there using microformats so how should we handle them? use tidy?
16:30:30 [HarryH]
fgandon: the question is non-wellformed XML but could still be used in a GRDDL transformation?
16:31:29 [HarryH]
fgandon: tagsoup parser and tidy being used in our wiki project...but sometimes cleaning up HTML can destroy the metadata.
16:31:39 [danja]
(I agree with the notion that HTML DOM -> GRDDL could work equivalent to XSLT, but also see Tidy as being problematic, no single algorithm)
16:32:30 [Zakim]
16:32:34 [bwm]
(me wonders what effect brackets round text has)
16:32:56 [danja]
(stage whisper?)
16:32:57 [fgandon]
HarryH: we only lincence the use of GRDDL for XHTML and other use are allowed at your own risk.
16:33:03 [DanC]
(comments like this are on the record, but sorta 2nd-class, since they weren't vocalized.)
16:33:30 [fgandon]
ACTION: Fabien to add a sentence about that in the Use Case document.
16:33:47 [DanC]
s/that/non-XML HTML/
16:34:23 [fgandon]
ACTION 6 = Fabien to add a sentence about non XML sources in the Use Case document.
16:35:31 [bwm]
( i'm uncomfortable with "allowed at own risk" - GRDDL is defined on welformed XML and undefined otherwise. If someone transforms malformed xml into well formed xml and then runs a transform - that is up to them.)
16:36:38 [fgandon]
ACTION: Harry to respond to Norman Gray
16:36:56 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:36:56 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "[#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up
16:38:33 [fgandon]
Chimezie: it is not clear if you can access the right mime type within a stylesheet.
16:39:37 [fgandon]
Harry: can we use the Atom test case
16:40:03 [chimezie]
16:40:14 [chimezie]
method = "xml" | "html" | "text" | qname-but-not-ncname
16:40:23 [chimezie]
media-type = string />
16:41:18 [fgandon]
DanC: it is the job of the transformation to specify the mime type of its output.
16:41:22 [danja]
(Henry Story has an Atom to N3 XSLT 2.0)
16:41:37 [DanC]
no, it's the job of the transformation to specify an RDF graph, by whatever means.
16:42:24 [chimezie]
We would be limited to resolving mime-types that are registered (RDF/XML is the only one)?
16:44:13 [danja]
(me chuckles at facetious test cases)
16:44:19 [fgandon]
DanC: the mime type we use should be registered mime types
16:44:48 [fgandon]
DanC: we could register a personnal mime type for N3
16:45:05 [fgandon]
Chimezie: or use plain text mime type
16:46:22 [HarryH]
DanC: Or just leave mime type unspecified and output just plain N3 in text.
16:46:57 [DanC]
(hmm... should the test materials have the N3 output, or the RDF/XML, or both? hmm.)
16:50:56 [DanC]
ACTION DanJa: provide XSLT transformation from Atom to N3, and one case where it works
16:51:20 [DanC]
WITHDRAWN: ACTION: chimezie to develop test case to demonstrate both sides of the issue with #issue-output-formats
16:51:45 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:51:45 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "[#issue-mt-ns]" taken up
16:52:34 [DanC]
right; the 2 pending tests I have noted are: "no, xinclude doesn't come for free in xslt", "yes, you can use XProc to say to do xinclude and XSLT"
16:53:00 [fgandon]
Chimezie: how to we deal with xinclude ?
16:54:07 [chimezie]
what about when xinclude *does* come for free?
16:54:29 [fgandon]
DanC: when you point to a transformation it determines a relation between an infoset and an RDF Graph.
16:54:49 [fgandon]
DanC: when there is an XInclude it is ignored.
16:55:27 [fgandon]
DanC: the XSLT does specify is we do XInclude first or not.
16:56:08 [danja]
16:56:15 [fgandon]
s/does specify is/does not specify if/
16:57:04 [fgandon]
Murray: there is a policy question: if I am talking about the XML doc are we talking about the brakets or the infoset.
16:57:27 [fgandon]
DanC: it is not about the angle brackets
16:59:41 [fgandon]
ACTION: Chimezie to make an example about XInclude
17:00:33 [fgandon]
ACTION: Murray to send a pointer to the XProc example
17:01:42 [fgandon]
Murray: is the content you have after you resolve the XInclude is part of the truth of the doc?
17:01:50 [fgandon]
DanC : yes
17:02:31 [DanC]
(I didn't answer Murray's question)
17:03:06 [fgandon]
Murray: replace the XInclude by a triple stating there was an XInclude that wasn't resolved.
17:03:19 [danja]
17:03:47 [fgandon]
Chimezie: every transform would have to be aware of that.
17:04:18 [HarryH]
WITHDRAWN: ACTION: ACTION: Murray, DanC, chimezie formulate source examples (with xincludes) for GRDDL transform.
17:04:38 [fgandon]
17:04:39 [chimezie]
the suggestion seems to be to add an additional test for an XSLT that will extract RDF which uses a term (such as rdfs:seeAlso) to link the source document with the XIncluded url
17:04:49 [fgandon]
17:05:08 [chimezie]
.. so the inclusion can be done within the RDF 'realm'
17:06:31 [DanC]
17:10:06 [bwm]
back - I had to leave to take an urgent call
17:12:15 [fgandon]
Chimezie: nothing in the XSLT specs mandates how the parsing should be done.
17:12:43 [fgandon]
HarryH: how do we deal with layer processing in general?
17:13:35 [danja]
(btw, possible useful ref for wording of "Normative Statement", XPath bit - )
17:13:56 [fgandon]
HarryH: if we have two different answers from two different implementations we should show both and underline the problem.
17:15:08 [fgandon]
DanC: I don't think the XPath doc should have processed the XInclude
17:15:19 [fgandon]
Chimezie: this is an open issue.
17:16:06 [chimezie]
<root xi:href="someDoc.xml"/> => <> rdfs:seeAlso <someDoc.xml>
17:16:15 [DanC]
<letter><sec />...
17:16:36 [DanC]
<letter><sec /><sec /><xinclude .../> </letter>
17:16:54 [fgandon]
Murray: Murray gives an example of a letter with three sections, the third one is an XInclude
17:17:11 [DanC]
<letter grdd:transformation="grokletter.xsl"><sec /><sec /><xinclude .../> </letter>
17:17:14 [chimezie]
though rdfs:seeAlso isn't expressive enough to capture what xinlclude is doing
17:17:51 [fgandon]
Murray: in that document there is a GRDDL transform "grokletter" that knows how to handle this letter.
17:17:54 [DanC]
MM: grokletter.xsl has a pattern to match <xinclude> ...
17:18:30 [chimezie]
so we have 3 test cases: 1) stand alone XInclude 2) XInclude mandated by an XML pipeline description 3) a transformation that 'describes' the inclusion using RDF terms
17:19:19 [chimezie]
these 3 will be enough to talk through this issue
17:19:32 [fgandon]
DanC: so the input still includes the XInclude.
17:20:04 [fgandon]
Murray: yes so if the XInclude is in the letter it will be processed by the transform
17:20:28 [fgandon]
Murray: if the XInclude has been processed before then your pattern won't fire.
17:20:34 [chimezie]
i agree (with bwm)
17:20:58 [bwm]
for the log I said thinks the transform is the wrong place to deal with it - the publisher should get to choose whether to use an xinclude or not
17:21:26 [fgandon]
Murray: grokletter recognizes the presence of an XIclude and handles it.
17:22:50 [chimezie]
we can't resolve this without a policy decision
17:22:56 [bwm]
- the transform should not depend on the implementation
17:24:03 [fgandon]
Brian: the result should be independent of the implementation.
17:24:31 [fgandon]
DanC: I could see both results being right.
17:25:35 [fgandon]
Chimezie: the policy decision must be resloved before we resolve this.
17:27:15 [Zakim]
17:27:33 [HarryH]
ACTION: Murray to write up the pros and cons
17:28:14 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:28:14 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "[#issue-base-param]" taken up
17:28:16 [Zakim]
17:28:34 [HarryH]
Scribe: Danja
17:28:37 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:28:37 [Zakim]
agendum 7 was just opened, HarryH
17:28:45 [HarryH]
Zakim, close item
17:28:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', HarryH
17:29:26 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
17:29:26 [Zakim]
agendum 7 closed
17:29:27 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:27 [fgandon]
HarryH: Ian and I achieved some things for the primer but still working on SPARQL
17:29:29 [Zakim]
8. Primer Document
17:29:31 [Zakim]
17:29:35 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:29:35 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Primer Document" taken up
17:29:40 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
17:29:40 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
17:29:41 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:42 [Zakim]
9. GRDDL Spec: General issues
17:29:42 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:29:42 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "GRDDL Spec: General issues" taken up
17:29:46 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
17:29:46 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
17:29:48 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:49 [Zakim]
10. schedule
17:29:59 [Zakim]
17:31:18 [fgandon]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:32:08 [fgandon]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:32:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fgandon
17:32:57 [Zakim]
17:36:08 [danja]
danja has joined #grddl-wg
17:51:44 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
18:00:54 [Zakim]
18:00:59 [Zakim]
18:01:01 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
18:01:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DannyA, HarryH, FabienG, bwm, Murray_Maloney
18:03:45 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:03:50 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:05:27 [DanC]
Meeting: GRDDL Weekly
18:06:06 [DanC]
18:06:27 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:06:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:41:09 [danja]
danja has joined #grddl-wg
18:46:17 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
19:31:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #grddl-wg
19:51:06 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: GRDDL WG
20:43:13 [danja]
danja has joined #grddl-wg
21:31:43 [HarryH]
HarryH has joined #grddl-wg