17:59:04 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:59:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-tagmem-irc 17:59:20 zakim, this will be tag 17:59:21 ok, ht; I see TAG_Weekly()12:30PM scheduled to start 29 minutes ago 17:59:23 DanC has joined #tagmem 18:00:23 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started 18:00:30 +[IBMCambridge] 18:01:16 Vincent has joined #tagmem 18:01:25 dorchard has joined #tagmem 18:01:25 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 18:01:25 +noah; got it 18:01:36 +Raman 18:01:53 +Dave_Orchard 18:02:13 +Vincent 18:02:24 zakim, please call ht-781 18:02:25 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:02:27 +DanC 18:02:29 +Ht 18:02:52 Zakim, who is here? 18:02:52 On the phone I see noah, Raman, Dave_Orchard, Vincent, DanC, Ht 18:02:54 On IRC I see dorchard, Vincent, DanC, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, Norm, ht 18:03:04 DanC has changed the topic to: TAG weekly 14 Nov http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ 18:03:33 +Norm 18:03:35 agenda + Convene 18:03:42 agenda + Issue metadataInURI-31 18:03:50 agenda + Issue namespaceDocument-8 18:03:54 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/11/14-agenda.html 18:04:31 DanC has changed the topic to: TAG weekly 14 Nov http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/11/14-agenda.html 18:04:44 Zakim, take up item 1 18:04:44 agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC] 18:04:48 Scribe: DanC 18:04:52 Chair: VQ 18:04:55 +Ed_Rice 18:05:01 PROPOSED: to met 21 Nov 18:05:07 NM: regrets 21 Nov 18:05:16 Ed has joined #tagmem 18:05:17 HT: regrets 21 Nov. backplane meeting 18:05:32 +TimBL 18:05:35 PROPOSED: to meet 21 Nov, Ed to scribe 18:05:57 timbl has joined #tagmem 18:06:04 PROPOSED: to accept http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/11/07-minutes.html as a true record 18:06:45 PROPOSED: to accept http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/11/07-minutes.html as a true record, after making the ammendment Noah requested 18:06:47 ok by me 18:06:53 RESOLVED: to accept http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/11/07-minutes.html as a true record, after making the ammendment Noah requested 18:07:17 RESOLVED: to meet 21 Nov, Ed to scribe 18:07:39 agenda + Issue passwordsInTheClear-52 18:08:17 Zakim, next item 18:08:18 agendum 2. "Issue metadataInURI-31" taken up [from DanC] 18:09:14 VQ: so we have a draft of 7 Nov, and action on DanC and Ed to review 18:09:32 NM: section [n] was rewritten 18:09:50 VQ: I note discussion of dates in W3C URIs 18:10:26 NM: I saw review comments from Ed... 18:11:34 ... about strengthening the story from save-as to running it. [?] 18:12:45 [odd... I see 2 URIs. ./malicious.exe and ./moviestar.jpg ] 18:13:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/metaDataInURI-31-20061107.html The use of Metadata in URIs DRAFT TAG Finding 07 November 2006 18:15:04 DC: I see 2 URIs... ./malicious.exe and ./moviestar.jpg 18:15:10 NM: that's the 2nd example; look at the 1st 18:15:16 DC: what's the URI in the 1st example? 18:15:25 NM: there isn't a specific URI in the 1st example 18:15:42 DC: then it's too abstract already for somebody, like me, who isn't reading all that carefully 18:15:43 s/[n]/2.8/ 18:15:51 this is section 2.8? 18:17:00 (minutes Nov 7 are dated 2006/11/14 18:09:46 ) 18:17:29 ... 18:17:40 ... served as image/jpeg 18:20:24 NM: so I see 2 ways to mitigate the risk: 18:20:40 ... (1) what safari does, use the mime type to make a filename of moviestar.exe.jpeg 18:20:55 ... (2) warn that saving as .exe won't preserve the mime type 18:26:53 Ed: just recently I saw a link to an RSS feed that came up as text. 18:26:58 TimBL: what was the media type? 18:26:59 Ed: text 18:27:40 TimBL: then the browser was doing it right; if that's not what the author meant, he should have used a different media type; see webarch and/or "authoritative metadata" finding 18:28:31 1. The URI ends in .exe 18:28:41 2. The contrn typ eis image/jpeg 18:28:47 3. So the image works ina browser 18:28:52 4. the server saves it 18:29:00 TV: so I see (1) and (2); it's better to advise one over the other, no? 18:29:09 4. The users saves it with "save image to desktop" 18:29:20 q+ to answer TV's question: (1) is better 18:29:35 5. the user lcicks on it in hte desktop and the thinbg runs as a file 18:30:23 s/lcicks/clicks/ 18:30:26 s/hte/the/ 18:30:30 s/thinbg/thing/ 18:30:59 NM: so is the GPN OK? 18:32:43 DC: it's too complicated; just say "when saving to filesystems that use extensions to represent media types, user agents must choose an extension that is constistent with the media type from the representation" 18:33:30 Ed: is that a rfc2119:MUST ? 18:33:31 DanC: yes 18:33:47 TimBL: most operating systems let you rename it 18:34:00 ... if you accept that your warrantee is void 18:34:04 DanC: well, that's separate 18:35:12 . ACTION NM: rework 1st example to be more explicit as per Tim's suggestion above, and update GPN per Dan's suggestion 18:35:29 (did he say keep the 2nd example? I haven't looked at it.) 18:36:06 NM: I have gotten comments on other parts of the document... 18:36:23 ... ok to change "create" to "assign"? 18:36:30 TBL: where is that comment? 18:37:28 NM: Stuart has advised against "authority" all over the document; I think he's accepted that different editors would say it differently 18:38:54 Note from Ed Davies: 18:38:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Nov/0048.html 18:39:09 NM: Ed Davies 8 Nov wrote about a UK court case 18:39:31 ... which we have previously discussed 18:41:30 DanC: I think we treated this in the deep linking finding 18:41:38 HT: no, this is a different case 18:42:02 ... we don't have very good sources about this case; we're still awaiting the official record 18:43:57 q+ to ask if it wasn't the deep linking finding, what did happen to this court case when we last discussed it? 18:46:14 ack DanC 18:46:14 DanC, you wanted to answer TV's question: (1) is better and to ask if it wasn't the deep linking finding, what did happen to this court case when we last discussed it? 18:47:10 ACTION HT: seek a copy of the official court record of the UK case on ../../ etc. 18:47:36 HT: I intended to get a copy before, so yes, let's track it as an action now 18:49:24 TimBL: I don't see this metadata in URI finding saying anything terribly relevant to the UK case 18:51:30 DONE: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft. 18:51:46 ACTION Ed: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft. [DONE] 18:52:04 "Face-to-face meeting, 11-13 Dec. 2006, Cambridge, MA, USA, hosted by MIT" -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ 18:52:14 TV: I'm at risk for the Dec ftf 18:52:21 My current plan is to attend 12, 13 in person and on 11 by phone, if possible 18:52:46 NM: I don't see much opportunity to make progress until ftf prep; ETA 4 Dec 18:53:09 ACTION DanC: accepted on 4 Oct 2006: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft. [CONTINUES] 18:54:05 Zakim, next item 18:54:05 agendum 3. "Issue namespaceDocument-8" taken up [from DanC] 18:55:08 http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/malicious.html illustrates the case Noah describes in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/metaDataInURI-31-20061107.html 18:55:09 WITHDRAWN: NW, accepted on 12 Jul 2005: follow up on Noah's message on ns name. Reconfirmed on 10 Jan 2006. 18:55:43 ACTION NW: propose to Jonathan Borden that he changes to using a file of Natures. [CONTINUES] 18:55:43 Firefox's treatment is actually sub-optimal 18:55:57 ack DanC 18:55:58 DanC, you wanted to ask a fairly meaty question about GRDDL and namespaces and media types that I sent to www-tag 18:56:06 . http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Nov/0086.html 18:58:05 DC: Shows a document containing RDF but served application/xml 18:58:25 DC: The RDF gives a privacy policy 18:58:36 DC: Has the author issued a privacy policy, or just said "look at these tags"? 18:59:35 DC: I think I like the former, in part because there's a lot of stuff already deployed that way. 18:59:43 I vote (1) 19:00:20 DC: Suggested in the email: 19:00:20 An XML document labeled as text/xml or application/xml might contain 19:00:20 namespace declarations, stylesheet-linking processing instructions 19:00:20 (PIs), schema information, or other declarations that might be used 19:00:20 to suggest how the document is to be processed. 19:00:32 For example, a 19:00:32 document might have the XHTML namespace and a reference to a CSS 19:00:32 stylesheet. Such a document might be handled by applications that 19:00:32 would use this information to dispatch the document for appropriate 19:00:32 processing. 19:00:55 q+ 19:02:13 ack noah 19:04:33 q+ to bring up another case, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist3#xslt_literal_result 19:07:14 ack DanC 19:07:14 DanC, you wanted to bring up another case, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist3#xslt_literal_result 19:08:26 looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/litres.xml 19:09:24 Content-Type: application/xml; qs=0.9 19:09:37 Windows has the following information about this MIME type. This page will help you find software needed to open your file. 19:09:37 MIME Type: application/rdf xml 19:09:47 Content-Location: testlist3.rdf 19:09:47 Vary: negotiate,accept 19:10:29 NW: What's your question? 19:10:37 DC: How many triples are here? 19:10:46 DC: RDF parser is unhappy with this. 19:11:04 TBL: If the parser supported XML functions would it be unhappy? 19:11:11 DC: What does that mean? 19:11:28 TBL: When you get to a subtree you don't recognize, you look up namespace to get specs. 19:11:39 NW: Tim, you'd like it to work that way, but there's no spec for that. 19:11:49 19:11:56 We're looking at this: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/litres.xml 19:12:02 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist3 19:12:33 TBL: I did a curl -i on it and it said it was RDF. 19:12:35 DC: OK 19:12:43 DC: There are two tests in there. 19:13:48 DC: this won't parse due to last dc:description. 19:14:09 DC: if you knew to run XSLT first, you'd "win", but there don't seem to be enough keys to make that happen 19:14:15 q+ 19:14:18 NW: insteresting question which processing should happen first. 19:14:53 DC: It's a mixin? 19:14:58 HT: It is and it isn't. 19:15:22 q_ 19:15:28 q+ 19:15:28 HT: That use of XML breaks compositionality. It's in that sense outside the rules, and the fact that it causes problems is not surprising. 19:15:49 HT: In this case, the function of the whole is not the sum of the meaning of the parts. Not context free in the usual way. 19:15:51 HT, please stop; you have already lost tim 19:16:08 HT: To understand the meaning of the document by working bottom up. 19:16:11 TBL: Bottom up. 19:16:18 DC: If it's compositional, it works either way. 19:16:31 (he said, glibly, before wondering if he was right) 19:16:34 ack timbl 19:16:51 (Noah thinks that in general top down provides the context for the inner parts, as in ... 19:17:32 q- 19:17:48 TBL: If it were anything other than RDF, I would propose that when the RDF parser gets down to the dc:description,it would look up the namespace, e.g. to embed an encrypted piece. Works "fine" for other XML dialects. 19:18:01 I was going to say that xsl:version wasn't designed as a mixin; it was designed to tell the XSLT processor what to do, not to imply that you could or should send it to an XSLT processor. But I'm not sure that distinction is relevant on further consideration. 19:18:04 (wow... tim is blowing my mind, taking the side of "XSLT is working here; RDF is not doing the clean thing.") 19:18:08 TBL: Problem is that RDF claims to tell you the semantics of anything you put in there. There's no extensibility in that sense. 19:18:50 HT: Here's an example where it's different. 19:19:06 HT: XSTL stylesheets themselves break compositionality, and we've known that for years. 19:19:36 HT: You write things like

knowing that the contents are not the contents of a paragraph. They are result elements. XSLT is a meta lanuage that has implicit quoting all over the place. 19:19:49 TBL: Nothing wrong with that, because you start from the top. 19:20:18 (Noah notes that what Tim is saying is precisely why Noah said above that top down is the only right way to look at it.) 19:20:32 ("my functional xml paper" ... pointer, ht?) 19:20:36 TVR: In XSLT, everything but the XSLT namespace is implicitly quoted. 19:20:57 (I find http://www.idealliance.org/xmlusa/05/call/xmlpapers/243.198/.243.html Functional XML: A preliminary sketch HT ) 19:21:11 HT: But there are lots of XSLT elements that can contain either quoted or non-quoted things. Not clear it's entirely equivalent to backquoting. 19:21:45 NW: There are , and you could use them everywhere. Arguably that's what

19:22:14 DC: So I'm hearing first case leaves things looking reasonably clean as far as sniffing for RDF, but the 2nd case still seems to have dragons lurking. 19:22:29 [FYI, both Protege 3.1 and SWOOP 2.3 throw exceptions when given Dan's second URI. . . 19:22:40 DC: If I put a "parse type"(? scribe's not sure about this) we'd incorrectly blow past the XSL. 19:22:59 (well, we'd blow past; whether correct or not is the issue.) 19:23:02 If we put "parseType='XMLLiteral'" is what Dan meant 19:23:10 Thanks. 19:23:38 (Noah didn't scribe what Tim said, sorry. Couldn't quite hear.) 19:23:43 HT: Xinclude is another example. 19:24:16 q+ 19:24:22 (no smiley required, Norm; in the GRDDL WG, we've got an open action to make a test case of using an XML Pipeline in place of an XSLT transformation.) 19:24:51 ack TimBL 19:25:52 (it's becoming reasonably clear that people do consider that this xmlFunctions-34 does cover this discussion, so I don't need nsMediaType-3 re-opened) 19:27:48 ACTION HT: track progress of #int bug 1974 in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG. [CONTINUES] 19:28:07 . TBL, accepted on 5 Oct 2006: with Norm, draft semantic web architecture stories and such. 19:28:26 ACTION NDW: draft semantic web architecture stories and such 19:28:32 NDW: I hope to have something for the ftf, but it's risky 19:28:41 (new version of which? I have fallen behind) 19:29:15 (which finding, NDW?) 19:29:34 . 19:29:35 . 19:30:06 VQ: looks like we'll postpone passwordsInTheClear-52 to next time 19:30:13 passwords in the clear ok where? 19:30:19 e.g. on local networks 19:30:50 it's hard to get the scope of passwordsInTheClear clear while keeping it front-side-of-one-page 19:30:52 Zakim, next item 19:30:52 agendum 4. "Issue passwordsInTheClear-52" taken up [from DanC] 19:31:03 Topic: Dec ftf agenda 19:31:07 oops 19:31:09 that's for next week 19:31:13 -Dave_Orchard 19:31:17 -Ed_Rice 19:31:19 -Norm 19:31:20 -Vincent 19:31:20 -DanC 19:31:22 -noah 19:31:24 -TimBL 19:31:24 -Ht 19:31:27 -Raman 19:31:29 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 19:31:30 Attendees were noah, Raman, Dave_Orchard, Vincent, DanC, Ht, Norm, Ed_Rice, TimBL 21:12:34 Norm has joined #tagmem 22:00:45 Zakim has left #tagmem