IRC log of swd on 2006-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
15:54:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc
15:54:40 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make this record public
15:54:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swd
15:54:52 [TomB]
TomB has joined #swd
15:54:53 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be swd
15:54:53 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:55:45 [TomB]
RalphS, Guus, I'm chairing today?
15:55:50 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
15:55:58 [Zakim]
+ +31.70.314.aaaa
15:56:33 [Antoine]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:56:33 [Zakim]
+Antoine; got it
15:56:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.395.aabb
15:56:59 [Zakim]
-Antoine
15:57:01 [Zakim]
+Antoine
15:57:13 [RalphS]
zakim, aabb is me
15:57:13 [Zakim]
+RalphS; got it
15:58:20 [RalphS]
RalphS has changed the topic to: SWD WG 14 Nov agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0025.html
15:58:22 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:58:30 [Zakim]
+??P21
15:58:53 [Bern]
Bern has joined #swd
15:59:14 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p21 is Tom
15:59:14 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
15:59:45 [Zakim]
-RalphS
15:59:54 [Zakim]
+??P34
16:00:04 [Bern]
zakim, ??p34 is me
16:00:04 [Zakim]
+Bern; got it
16:00:15 [JonP]
JonP has joined #swd
16:00:16 [Zakim]
+Ralph
16:00:27 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
16:00:54 [Zakim]
+JonP
16:01:15 [Zakim]
+Antoine.a
16:01:26 [RalphS]
zakim, antoine.a is really Guus
16:01:26 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:01:48 [Zakim]
+??P42
16:01:59 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p42 is Alistair
16:01:59 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+CarlosI
16:02:38 [RalphS]
zakim, Carlos is really Diego
16:02:39 [Zakim]
+Diego; got it
16:02:49 [Guus]
zakim, wo is here?
16:02:49 [Zakim]
sorry, Guus, I do not understand your question
16:03:08 [RalphS]
Meeting: SWD WG
16:03:16 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0025.html
16:03:44 [RalphS]
Regrets: Sean, Daniel
16:05:53 [RalphS]
Scribe: Bernard
16:05:58 [RalphS]
scribenick: bern
16:06:06 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-11-07 http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html
16:06:23 [Bern]
Guus: ignore action items at top of agenda are spurious
16:07:07 [Bern]
Guus: minures are accepted, seconded by TomB
16:07:26 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html
16:07:43 [Bern]
Ralph: question tutorial for IRC, zakim, etc
16:08:17 [Bern]
...working with Tom
16:08:29 [Bern]
TomB: propose that tutorial is in agenda header
16:08:50 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph consider a tutorial on scribe conventions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:09:39 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html Notes on scribing
16:10:03 [Bern]
RalphS: this on on the table of "nearby" links
16:10:12 [Bern]
... on the WG home page
16:10:35 [Bern]
Topic: tlecon times
16:11:01 [Bern]
Guus: this time is convenient for many people including chairs
16:11:07 [Bern]
...despite ovelap with RIF
16:11:30 [Bern]
...so proposes to stay with this time
16:12:12 [Bern]
[DONE] ACTION: Tom to discuss with Guus [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action08]
16:12:41 [RalphS]
s/discuss/discuss telecon time/
16:13:07 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0014.html example SKOS use case
16:13:20 [aliman]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0019.html email suggesting format for skos use cases
16:13:44 [TomB]
ACTION: Elisa to keep us posted as SKOS/iso 11179
16:13:46 [TomB]
compatibility issue evolves [recorded in
16:13:48 [TomB]
[36]w3c:/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:13:56 [TomB]
-- continues
16:14:40 [Bern]
Guus: progress on http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action10
16:15:00 [Bern]
Alistair: waiting for concensus on use case format
16:16:23 [Bern]
Guus: taken action on http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action09
16:16:32 [Bern]
...waiting for message to appear on mailing list
16:17:25 [Bern]
Jon: questions on Guus' example use cases
16:18:07 [Bern]
Guus: cannot be directly used for SKOS, different use but similar
16:18:26 [Bern]
... also look at GoF Patterns book
16:19:06 [Bern]
Guus: action on http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action07
16:19:24 [Bern]
Antione: looking for more insight on use case format and how to divide workload
16:19:56 [aliman]
q+ to ask everybody to say what they think about the suggested use case
16:19:59 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0015.html W3C Tech Report editor's materials
16:20:50 [Bern]
Guus: talking to Chris Welty at ISWC about use of Wiki
16:21:05 [Bern]
... doesn't require document editors to have CVS access
16:21:14 [Bern]
...Chris has good experience with it
16:21:26 [Bern]
...suggest as a way of capturing documentation for the WG
16:21:42 [Bern]
RalphS: Wiki might encourage more contributions
16:22:01 [Bern]
... to find out more information about state of Wiki scripts
16:22:24 [Bern]
...concen about ease of editing wiki pages
16:22:30 [Bern]
...expressed from Tom
16:22:44 [Bern]
...but could use Wiki to collect notes
16:23:14 [Bern]
Jon: which wiki?
16:23:21 [aliman]
it's moin moin
16:23:27 [aliman]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/ RIF wiki
16:23:32 [Bern]
Guus: on the RIF WG home page
16:23:44 [TomB]
1+ Good experience with moinmoin
16:23:52 [Guus]
RIF wiki http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/
16:24:29 [Bern]
Guus: suggest we consider it. but try it out first
16:24:57 [Bern]
ACTION: Ralph to find out more about the Wiki tools
16:25:13 [RalphS]
s/the/the RIF/
16:25:28 [Bern]
Guus: looking for tools to make collaboration for the group easier
16:26:10 [RalphS]
Ralph: I personally find it very awkward to edit Wiki page
16:26:12 [JonP]
+1 to using a wiki for document production if scripts exist to convert to doc format
16:26:19 [Bern]
Guus: look at use cases
16:26:46 [Bern]
...and a format to describe them
16:26:58 [Bern]
...referrring to Alistair's posting
16:27:17 [Bern]
...clarification of use of Alistair's term "fucntionality"
16:27:41 [Bern]
Alistair: functionality, for example, is search and browse (a description of how people can search and browse)
16:28:21 [Bern]
Guus: on vocabularies, expect examples for expressiveness
16:29:07 [Bern]
Alistair: expect to describe vocabulary, including their structural characteristics and provide concrrete examples to illustrate all features mentioned
16:29:19 [TomB]
q+ Alistair is cutting in and out acoustically - just my phone?
16:29:28 [Bern]
Guus: I would be more explicit (e.g. broader, narrower, related)
16:29:44 [Bern]
...and anything outside ISO format should be specified
16:30:22 [Bern]
RalphS: assume we should subsume ISO standards
16:30:26 [aliman]
iso 2788 and iso 5964
16:30:32 [Bern]
... is this a requirement?
16:30:51 [Guus]
[i have to leave]
16:30:56 [Bern]
...state this as a requirement
16:31:19 [aliman]
q+ on iso format
16:31:32 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:31:44 [Bern]
RalphS: needs discussion on ISO format assumption
16:32:27 [Bern]
TomB: we're not going to be able to resolve this on this call
16:32:43 [Bern]
...propose an addition to requirements template from Alistair
16:33:01 [aliman]
q+ to say on use case format
16:33:09 [Bern]
RalphS: suggest editors put forward a list of requriemetns that are proposed and accepted
16:33:33 [Bern]
TomB: so, simply, they have an action to start getting requiremetns from the email list?
16:33:56 [Bern]
RalphS: sugest Jon & Antione to keep this list
16:34:44 [Bern]
Alistair: I think Guus said I should have another crack at the format
16:35:14 [Bern]
...but we may be able to be more precise and more specific
16:35:31 [Bern]
...Guus seems to want us to talk about ISO formats
16:36:24 [Bern]
RalphS: is the decision about accepting ISO as base requirements necessary before Alistair re-does the format
16:36:52 [Bern]
...but these are really separate, So these need to be discussed separately.
16:37:33 [Bern]
Alistair: I heard Guus say we should use the ISO format as a way of laying out use cases
16:37:52 [Bern]
...but I tried to be as neutral as possible
16:38:08 [Bern]
...and not tied to any classification schemata
16:38:18 [Bern]
...and presented in a human readable form
16:38:36 [Bern]
RalphS: I strongly endorse that
16:39:09 [Bern]
TomB: I also thought Guus was suggesting that use case describe more about the vocabulary
16:39:22 [Bern]
...suggest we discuss for one more week, then come to a decision next week
16:41:03 [Bern]
RalphS: everyone encouraged to provide feedback to Alistair
16:41:17 [Bern]
Alistair: does everyone understand what I've written?
16:41:44 [Bern]
RalphS: clarification of ISO format
16:42:39 [RalphS]
Bernard: my understanding of Guus' point was that we use the GangOfFour patterns and only describe use cases that go beyond those narrower, broader, related-to
16:42:47 [TomB]
+1 on Bernard's understanding
16:43:26 [Bern]
Alistair: doesn't believe we should take ISO as a starting point
16:43:37 [RalphS]
Alistair: taking 2788 as a style would lead to other things that are beyond our scope
16:44:04 [Bern]
...there's an awful lot of flexibility in ISO, not sufficiently well-defined
16:44:39 [Bern]
q+ to ask about initial documents
16:44:56 [aliman]
q-
16:44:57 [Bern]
ACTION: all to respond to Alistair's proposal
16:45:44 [RalphS]
Bernard: do the existing Working Drafts need some careful review by the WG?
16:46:14 [RalphS]
... I suggest that everyone send comments on the existing drafts in mail
16:46:31 [RalphS]
Alistair: we could use the issues list to track these comments
16:47:49 [RalphS]
... I have been maintaining a public SKOS issues list; I use this to track comments
16:47:51 [TomB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0019.html
16:48:02 [TomB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0019.html
16:48:08 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core/proposals
16:48:45 [Bern]
RalphS: important that this WG pays attention to these issues
16:49:09 [Bern]
...if Alistair can continue to track the issues
16:49:17 [Zakim]
Bern, you wanted to ask about initial documents
16:49:41 [Bern]
Alistair: been putting more energy into looking into requiremetns
16:50:03 [Bern]
TomB: like to propose an action on Alistair to continue maintaining that list
16:50:27 [Bern]
RalphS: priority is to capture use cases
16:50:47 [Bern]
Alistair: important to make a connection from issues to requirements
16:50:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: we can't close issues without knowing what our use cases are
16:50:57 [Bern]
...and make requirements explicit
16:51:20 [Bern]
...and I will continue to maintain that list of issues
16:54:04 [RalphS]
ACTION: Daniel to send mail describing his use cases for SKOS draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:54:10 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:54:38 [Bern]
ACTION: Elisa to keep us posted as SKOS/iso 11179 compatibility issue evolves [recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action07] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:54:45 [Bern]
-- continues
16:55:16 [Bern]
topic: RDF in XHTML
16:55:27 [Bern]
TOMB: no one on call to discuss
16:55:48 [aliman]
q+ to mention current thread on semantic-web@w3.org
16:56:05 [Bern]
Topic: Recipes for Publishing RDF Vocabularies
16:56:15 [Bern]
RalphS: no time to participate
16:56:24 [Bern]
TomB: no one to participate
16:56:52 [RalphS]
Ralph: I will have to miss the Nov 28 and Dec 5 telecons due to W3C meetings; will be back in the office on December 11
16:57:01 [Bern]
Alistair: also no time. However, there's a discussion on the semantic-web@w3.org thread
16:57:16 [Bern]
JonP: useful discussion on the thread
16:57:37 [Bern]
Alistair: a lot of the discussion seems to be igoring the recipes
16:57:49 [Bern]
...so perhaps our work is not widely known
16:58:09 [Bern]
...need to get more input and involvement
16:58:20 [Zakim]
-Tom
16:58:29 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2006Nov/0055.html "Hash URIs" and content negotiation (start of thread)
16:58:34 [Bern]
...so have requested comments
16:58:52 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:59:09 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2006Nov/thread.html#msg55 "Hash URIs" and content negotiation thread
16:59:16 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p6 is Tom
16:59:16 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
16:59:20 [Bern]
...TomB: no editor currently
16:59:34 [Bern]
...close meeting for today
16:59:53 [RalphS]
zakim, list attendees
16:59:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +31.70.314.aaaa, Antoine, +1.617.395.aabb, RalphS, Tom, Bern, Ralph, JonP, Guus, Alistair, CarlosI, Diego
16:59:57 [Zakim]
-Alistair
16:59:58 [RalphS]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-minutes.html RalphS
17:00:11 [Zakim]
-Bern
17:00:18 [Zakim]
-JonP
17:00:21 [Zakim]
-Diego
17:00:24 [Zakim]
-Tom
17:00:27 [Zakim]
-Ralph
17:02:20 [RalphS]
hmm. there are several actions that did not get carried forward
17:02:33 [RalphS]
(or closed)
17:02:37 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
17:02:54 [Zakim]
-Antoine
17:02:55 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:02:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were +31.70.314.aaaa, Antoine, +1.617.395.aabb, RalphS, Tom, Bern, Ralph, JonP, Guus, Alistair, CarlosI, Diego
17:03:32 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Alistair propose a format for presenting use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action11]
17:03:50 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alistair work with the UCR editors to draft questions to invite the esw-thes mailing list to contribute to the use cases and requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action10]
17:03:52 [RalphS]
-- continues
17:04:23 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Guus cite some examples of other Requirements documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action09]
17:04:44 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0028.html ACTION: Guus cite some examples of other Requirements docs [Guus Schreiber]
17:05:09 [TomB]
TomB has joined #swd
17:05:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Jon, Daniel, Antoine figure out their individual roles as SKOS Requirements editors [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action07]
17:05:13 [RalphS]
-- continues
17:05:24 [TomB]
RalphS, can you chat on phone?
17:05:30 [RalphS]
sure
17:05:34 [TomB]
#?
17:05:55 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph point Jon, Daniel, Antoine at the W3C tech report editors materials [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action08]
17:06:15 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alistair give pointers to deployed SKOS systems. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html#action06]
17:06:18 [RalphS]
-- continues
17:06:37 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:06:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-minutes.html RalphS
17:07:44 [RalphS]
Bernard, you'll want to start with the later version of the -minutes.html file as it has the full list of actions now
19:20:48 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
19:20:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd
19:20:50 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-actions.rdf :
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa to keep us posted as SKOS/iso 11179 [1]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T16-13-44
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph to find out more about the Wiki tools [2]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T16-24-57
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: all to respond to Alistair's proposal [3]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T16-44-57
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Daniel to send mail describing his use cases for SKOS draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-minutes.html#action01] [4]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T16-54-04
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa to keep us posted as SKOS/iso 11179 compatibility issue evolves [recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action07] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action03] [5]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T16-54-38
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair work with the UCR editors to draft questions to invite the esw-thes mailing list to contribute to the use cases and requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action10] [6]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T17-03-50
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jon, Daniel, Antoine figure out their individual roles as SKOS Requirements editors [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html#action07] [7]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T17-05-10
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair give pointers to deployed SKOS systems. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html#action06] [8]
19:20:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/11/14-swd-irc#T17-06-15