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15:58:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/09-xproc-irc
15:58:32 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:58:32 <Norm> Date: 9 Nov 2006
15:58:32 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/11/09-agenda.html
15:58:33 <Norm> Meeting: 43
15:58:35 <Norm> Chair: Norm
15:58:37 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
15:58:39 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
15:59:24 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:31 <Zakim> +Norm
16:00:02 <Norm> 'k
16:00:15 <Zakim> +Alex_Milowski
16:00:25 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:00:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:31 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
16:00:36 <rlopes> Zakim, [IP is me
16:00:36 <Zakim> +rlopes; got it
16:01:00 <Alessandro> Alessandro has joined #xproc
16:01:20 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
16:01:38 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:01:38 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:01:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:41 <Zakim> +Ht
16:01:44 <Alessandro> Zakim, [IP is Alessandro
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Alessandro; got it
16:01:59 <Norm> zakim, who's making noise?
16:02:10 <Zakim> Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 6 (0%)
16:02:17 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
16:02:22 <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
16:02:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
16:02:24 <Norm> zakim, mute Alessandro 
16:02:24 <Zakim> Alessandro should now be muted
16:02:28 <Norm> zakim, mute ht
16:02:28 <Zakim> Ht should now be muted
16:02:31 <Norm> zakim, unmute Alessandro 
16:02:34 <Zakim> Alessandro should no longer be muted
16:02:35 <Norm> zakim, unmute ht
16:02:35 <Zakim> Ht should no longer be muted
16:02:49 <Norm> ht?
16:02:52 <ht> zakim, hang up ht
16:02:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'hang up ht', ht
16:02:53 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
16:02:53 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:02:54 <Zakim> +MSM
16:02:57 <ht> zakim, hang up ht.
16:02:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'hang up ht', ht
16:02:59 <Zakim> +??P26
16:03:00 <richard> zakim, ? is me
16:03:00 <Zakim> +richard; got it
16:03:03 <ht> zakim, disconnect ht
16:03:03 <Zakim> Ht is being disconnected
16:03:04 <Zakim> -Ht
16:03:10 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Alex_Milowski, PGrosso, rlopes, Alessandro, MSM, richard
16:03:21 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:03:21 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:03:23 <Zakim> +Ht
16:03:40 <MSM> zakim, who is making noise?
16:03:51 <Zakim> MSM, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Norm (24%)
16:03:56 <ht> funny, I'm not hearing anything
16:04:00 <ht> better now?
16:04:05 <Norm> zakim, mute ht
16:04:05 <Zakim> Ht should now be muted
16:04:08 <Norm> zakim, unmute ht
16:04:08 <Zakim> Ht should no longer be muted
16:04:16 <Zakim> -Ht
16:04:38 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:04:38 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:04:40 <Zakim> +Ht
16:05:01 <Zakim> -Ht
16:05:07 <ht> zakim, please call ht-work
16:05:07 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:05:09 <Zakim> +Ht
16:05:37 <Zakim> +??P28
16:05:44 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Alex_Milowski, PGrosso, rlopes, Alessandro, MSM, richard, Ht, ??P28
16:05:44 <MoZ> Zakim, ?? is me
16:05:48 <Zakim> +MoZ; got it
16:05:54 <Norm> Present: Norm, Alex, Paul, Rui, Alessandro, Michael, Richard, Henry, Mohamed
16:06:02 <Norm> Regrets: Andrew
16:06:21 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:06:21 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/11/09-agenda.html
16:06:32 <Norm> Accepted.
16:06:52 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
16:07:04 <Norm> Present: Norm, Alex, Paul, Rui, Alessandro, Michael, Richard, Henry, Mohamed, Murray
16:07:24 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:07:24 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/11/02-minutes.html
16:07:46 <Norm> Accepted.
16:07:46 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon 16 Nov 2006
16:08:09 <Norm> Michael possible regrets for 16 Nov
16:08:17 <Norm> Topic: Technical agenda
16:08:53 <Norm> Norm: The question of declare-* or not is the first big issue
16:09:10 <Norm> Norm: Any strong feelings?
16:10:00 <Norm> Henry: I liked the idea in the XML representation of XML Schema that we used the same element types for both declaring and referencing elements, attributes and a few other things.
16:10:20 <Norm> ...In general, I have not found that to be a source of confusion, but it is occasionally critizised.
16:10:28 <Norm> ...But I thought it was a good idea to keep them separate in our language.
16:10:35 <Norm> Richard: I say get rid of them.
16:10:58 <Norm> ...The divison between them doesn't seem to line up neatly enough. Sometimes declare means declare-and-use so there's no advantage in being explicit about it.
16:11:18 <Norm> Henry: That's not true of parameters.
16:11:49 <Norm> ...It's always the case that a given locus with respect to parameters is either a declaration or a binding, never both.
16:12:10 <Norm> Norm: In the case where your assigning defaults, it looks exactly like declare-and-use
16:12:16 <MSM> s/your/you're/
16:12:30 <Norm> Henry: I'm not sure I see it that way, but I understand how you might.
16:12:45 <Norm> Henry: Is there value in keeping the distinction for parameter but not input/output?
16:12:53 <Norm> Michael: Can someone type an example?
16:13:33 <Norm> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec-nodecl.html#ex.p.for-each
16:14:02 <Norm> Uhm. no.
16:14:05 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/alternate/#ex.p.for-each
16:15:03 <Norm> Norm: The input element both declares the existence of a port named "chap" and binds it to the given URI.
16:15:24 <Norm> We need more examples.
16:15:52 <MSM> when you speak of a port named "chapter", do you mean a port named "chap" ?
16:15:58 <Norm> Henry: That's not quite right, viewport does more than that. But we tried hard to fix that in Ontario and didn't find a better proposal.
16:16:06 <MSM> I don't see anything that looks like it's declaring a port named "chapter"
16:16:14 <Norm> Yes, I meant to say "chap"
16:19:01 <Norm> Micheal: It's not really a reference, it's an initializer.
16:19:07 <Norm> Richard: You're right. It's assignment.
16:20:02 <Norm> Consider: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/alternate/#dt-input-here
16:20:12 <ht> HST maintains that these things are a blend of input (source/href attrs) and declare-output (name attr)
16:20:38 <Norm> Micheal: It seems to me that this mixture could lead an outside observer to believe that we don't have our fundamental notions well understood.
16:21:25 <Norm> Henry: That's where we were in Ontario where we did finally get the semantics clear and agreed there were two things going on plus some special meanings, but that syntactically, it was obnoxious to have different bits of syntax to bear the different notions.
16:22:04 <Norm> Micheal: I'm not understanding the distinctions.
16:22:19 <Norm> Richard: The distinctions are in the attribute names and not in the element names.
16:22:40 <Norm> ...It seems really strange to distinguish three cases with two different elements.
16:22:57 <ht> HST agrees with richard -- name= establishes something input ports can bind to, source/href/etc. bind to a document source
16:23:00 <Norm> ...What we have now seems neither rigerous nor convenient.
16:23:43 <Norm> Norm: I've heard some support for removing the declare-* forms, some "concurs", and no opposition.
16:23:43 <MSM> [My instinct is that when things are semantically distinct they should have different GIs.
16:24:25 <MSM> If that means we end up with a cumbersome syntax, then it sometimes means we aren't defining the right abtractions.
16:24:38 <Norm> Norm: Shall we go with a draft that does not have the declare-* forms for publication on 17 November?
16:24:43 <MSM> And sometimes it doesn't.  I am not sure which class of case this is.]
16:24:47 <Norm> s/Shall we/We shall/
16:24:55 <Norm> Accepted.
16:25:30 <Norm> Norm: Any other issues that people feel must bee resolved before publication?
16:25:45 <Norm> None heard.
16:27:00 <Norm> Norm: Alex published a list of components this morning but it's unlikely that we'll have time to review them. Does anyone object to leaving them out of the 17 Nov draft?
16:27:05 <Norm> Mohamed: I think we should put some of them in.
16:27:29 <Norm> Murray: Would it be reasonable to produce a companion note that we can work on in parallel?
16:27:50 <Norm> Norm: No, I don't think that's practical.
16:28:04 <Norm> Richard: Looking through Alex's list, it appears that some are obviously good and some that need more discussion.
16:28:17 <Norm> ...I think it would be good to put the most uncontroversial ones into the draft.
16:28:45 <Norm> Henry: I nominate 1.1 through 1.6 with one change.
16:29:03 <Norm> ...The change being that the XSLT component should be clear about what version of XSLT.
16:29:23 <Norm> Norm: What about 1.7?
16:30:01 <Norm> Henry: No, that raises security issues.
16:30:01 <Norm> Alex: That's no different from the endpoints of a pipeline.
16:30:01 <Norm> Henry: Yes it is, they're outside the spec.
16:30:13 <Norm> Murray: I don't think we need firm agreement before we put something in the draft.
16:30:32 <Norm> ...I think we should include it all if we're going to put it in.
16:30:35 <Norm> Richard: I'm not sure I agree.
16:30:43 <Norm> ...When we put the WD out, we want to really direct attention to the core of it.
16:31:30 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
16:31:50 <Norm> Richard: What about serialize and parse?
16:32:01 <Norm> Alex: Yes, we've talked about them, but those are probably somewhat controversial.
16:33:45 <Norm> Murray: There's a middle ground, include an editorial note to say which are firmer and which are softer.
16:34:12 <Norm> Norm: Proposal: we incorporate 1.1-1.6 in the 17 November draft.
16:34:31 <Norm> Murray: Point of order: Alex provided the whole list.
16:34:55 <Norm> Murray: why are we rejecting the whole list?
16:35:07 <Norm> Henry: I don't have any objection at all.
16:36:02 <Norm> The scribe considers how to deal with this
16:37:09 <Norm> Proposal: Include section 1 of Alex's component list in the 17 November draft.
16:37:28 <Norm> Accepted.
16:37:30 <Norm> Proposal: Include section 2 of Alex's component list in the 17 November draft.
16:37:49 <Norm> Henry, Mohamed, Richard, object. Rejected.
16:37:56 <Norm> Proposal: Include section 3 of Alex's component list in the 17 November draft.
16:38:25 <Norm> Henry objects.
16:38:38 <Norm> Richard: It has some value in that it shows quite different kinds of components.
16:38:51 <Norm> Henry withdraws his objection.
16:38:59 <Norm> Accepted.
16:39:14 <Norm> Proposal: Include all of Alex's component list in the 17 November draft.
16:39:32 <Norm> Henry objects.
16:40:38 <Norm> Alex: What's wrong with section 2?
16:41:02 <Norm> Richard: Section 1 has obvious things, section 3 has fairly straightforward things that are somewhat different, but section 2 has some controversial things.
16:41:17 <Norm> s/tto/too
16:41:31 <Norm> Mohamed: I suggest that we add 2.3.
16:41:48 <Norm> Norm: The chair would prefer not to address individual cases for 17 Nov
16:42:28 <Norm> Henry: What about parameters
16:42:49 <Norm> s/parameters/parameters?/
16:43:25 <Norm> Henry: I'm not sure about Jeni's most recent post, but I think it should be possible to refer to parameters from other parameters.
16:44:07 <Norm> ...Is it obvious that we can do that, and how?
16:44:07 <Norm> Alex: It's not clear, but you do the $-thing.
16:44:10 <Norm> Norm: I think that it's unclear, but that we did address it.
16:44:21 <Norm> Henry: I'd like to encourage the editor to say something about that in the 17 Nov draft.
16:45:20 <Norm> Alex: What about references to parameters declared on the same component?
16:45:29 <Norm> Henry: I'd like to be able to make $x the default value for $y.
16:48:08 <Norm> Norm proposes to deliver a new working draft by close-of-business (EST) on Tuesday that will be published on 17 November. Unless someone objects on the 16 Nov call, that draft will be published.
16:48:27 <Norm> Accepted.
16:48:35 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
16:48:47 <Norm> None.
16:48:47 <Norm> Adjourned.
16:48:48 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:48:51 <Zakim> -rlopes
16:48:52 <Zakim> -Alessandro
16:48:54 <PGrosso> PGrosso has left #xproc
16:48:57 <Zakim> -Ht
16:48:58 <Zakim> -MSM
16:49:08 <Zakim> -richard
16:50:12 <Zakim> -MoZ
16:52:45 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:52:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Alex_Milowski, Murray_Maloney
16:53:26 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
16:53:29 <Zakim> -Norm
16:53:31 <Zakim> -Alex_Milowski
16:53:32 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:53:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Alex_Milowski, [IPcaller], rlopes, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, MSM, richard, MoZ, Murray_Maloney
16:53:41 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has left #xproc
16:55:43 <Norm> rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
16:55:48 <Norm> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/09-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:46:16 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
18:31:01 <MSM> Norm?
18:32:39 <Norm> Norm has joined #xproc
18:54:34 <MSM> Norm?
18:54:40 <Norm> yes
18:54:52 <MSM> true or false?
18:54:55 <Norm> yes
18:54:56 <Norm> :-)
18:55:26 <MSM> at the time of the dir decision call, (wiseguy), every spec which will ultimately be published at
18:55:56 <MSM> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/(.*)20061121/Overview.html
18:55:59 <MSM> will be at 
18:56:31 <MSM> http:http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2006/11/qtspecs/TR/2006/{\1}20061121/Overview.html
18:56:43 <Norm> Yes
18:57:03 <Norm> They're all there now, in fact, in various stages of pubrules cleanliness
18:57:06 <MSM> OK.  Updating draft transition request which was pointing at xsl-query-specs
18:57:45 <MSM> sorry to be so slow
18:58:13 <Norm> no worries. not like I'm not busy :-)
18:59:32 <MSM> Are there .htaccess files in these directories to make the directory name select Overview.html ?
19:00:11 <MSM> a: yes.
19:00:16 <MSM> at least for data model
19:16:41 <Norm> Norm, they're mostly there to get the encodings right
19:16:49 <Norm> I think Overview.html is the site-wide default
19:17:09 <MSM> Norm, are all Status sections currently identical?
19:17:26 <MSM> or should I proofread.  Each.  One. In.  Di.  Vidually.
19:17:38 <Norm> I can't swear to it, the editor's were supposed to copy what Jim sent
19:17:41 <Norm> Each. One. In. Di. Vidually, I fear.
19:18:34 <Norm> Personally, my concern for the status sections begins and ends wiht whether or not pubrules complains. I never read them.
19:18:50 <Norm> Paul Cotton used to. Jim and Andrew...sometimes do.
19:19:26 <Norm> And about the hail and locusts: Hey, Pal! Mine says what Jim said to say. What else do you want? :-)
19:20:33 <MSM> OK, I'll call off the order for your distict.
19:21:04 <MSM> assuming, of course, that it went Democratic.
19:21:32 <MSM> of course, I should be careful - dunno what my neighbors did on the close races here.
19:22:16 <MSM> or race:  the only real contest in my precinct was for commissioner of public lands.  unfortunately, the oil/gas industry guy won.
19:24:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xproc
19:24:54 <Norm> Democratic across the board, I think, but I haven't checked
19:25:08 <Norm> We got a democratic gov'n again though
19:33:04 <MSM> Norm, question about XSLT.
19:33:11 <Norm> Sure
19:33:15 <MSM> The copy at http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2006/11/qtspecs/TR/2006/PR-xslt20-20061121/Overview.html
19:33:32 <Norm> Yes?
19:33:36 <MSM> has a status section different from what I have in the draft transition request,
19:33:48 <MSM> which I copied from email from Mike Kay (I think).
19:34:04 <Norm> Rain down hail and locusts on the UK, I guess. I haven't touched that since Mike delivered it.
19:34:13 <MSM> What do you know about the state of that doc?
19:34:17 <MSM> when did he deliver this?
19:34:40 <Norm> Uhm.
19:34:56 <MSM> seems to be 7 Nov, at least in this dir
19:35:10 <MSM> but that was probably you generating it ...
19:36:04 <Norm> Mike last checked it in on 31 Oct
19:36:17 <Norm> I assume he did what he was supposed to.
19:36:19 <MSM> Arrgh.
19:36:24 <Norm> Welcome to my world.
19:36:26 <MSM> hail, locusts
19:36:28 <MSM> excessive fog
19:36:40 <MSM> no wait, that last is just normal UK november ...
19:36:49 <Norm> lol
19:37:22 <MSM> you don't touch it, but there's a crank you can turn to regenerate?
19:37:35 <MSM> i.e. shall I edit the XML
19:37:49 <MSM> or do we have to go through MK?
19:38:58 <Norm> Oh, and to MSM too :-)
19:38:58 <Norm> Edit the XML
19:38:58 <Norm> If you've got ant, you should be able to build it yourself with "ant all" 
19:39:14 <Norm> Norm, you own the status sections, edit at will, that's my feeling
19:39:31 <MSM> OK.
19:45:06 <MSM> OK, it's clear from my mail logs that MK has been revising the status section since sending a draft to the WG on 13 Oct.
19:45:13 <MSM> So at least I know which one to work from.
19:57:18 <Norm> Good
19:57:18 <Norm> Sorry, was distracted.
20:02:22 <MSM> But the transition request can/will say "subject to pub-rules-related changes", so I won't change it yet 
20:02:54 <Norm> It will collide, please change it back.
20:03:03 <Norm> That's got to be verbatim.
21:46:31 <Norm> Norm has joined #xproc
22:17:37 <MSM> Norm, I'm puzzled.
22:18:41 <MSM> I was expecting that you would have some external file with a load of entity declarations for things like the close-of-comments date, so you coudl change it in one place and propagate the change everywhere.
22:19:42 <MSM> Is it unworkable when there are so many different editors with varying skill sets?
22:19:57 <MSM> or do you have religious scruples about general entities?
22:20:12 <MSM> [ignore me, empty badinage]
22:24:49 <MSM> norm, i'm worried.
22:25:34 <MSM> XPathXQuery.xml in UTF8, I think, with ^M at ends of lines.
22:25:44 <MSM> I'm not sure whether my emacs is going to cope well.
22:30:30 <MSM> Be forewarned.
23:12:39 <MSM> Norm, now checking in all sources ...