IRC log of swd on 2006-11-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:36 [RRSAgent]
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15:55:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-irc
15:55:39 [RalphS]
Meeting: SWD WG
15:55:47 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:55:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker
15:56:04 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:56:11 [Antoine]
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15:57:16 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
15:57:16 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-irc#T15-57-16
15:59:45 [Zakim]
+Guus
15:59:48 [berrueta]
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16:00:09 [Zakim]
+??P15
16:00:11 [dlrubin]
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16:00:24 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p15 Daniel
16:00:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??p15 Daniel', RalphS
16:00:26 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p15 is Daniel
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+Bernard
16:00:45 [RalphS]
zakim, guus is really Antoine
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+Antoine; got it
16:01:56 [Zakim]
+CarlosI
16:02:35 [JonP]
JonP has joined #swd
16:02:50 [Alistair_scribe]
Alistair_scribe has joined #swd
16:02:51 [RalphS]
zakim, CarlosI is really Bernard
16:02:51 [Zakim]
+Bernard; got it
16:03:31 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
16:03:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Ralph, Antoine, Daniel, Bernard, Bernard.a
16:03:38 [RalphS]
zakim, Bernard.a is really Diego
16:03:40 [Zakim]
+Diego; got it
16:03:45 [Zakim]
+??P26
16:04:02 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p26 is Alistair
16:04:02 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
16:04:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.607.785.aaaa
16:05:15 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html
16:05:18 [JonP]
aaaa is me
16:06:39 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:06:39 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tom_Baker
16:06:43 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:06:43 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
16:06:52 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:06:52 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Daniel
16:06:54 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:06:54 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Diego
16:07:24 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:24 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tom_Baker
16:07:26 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:27 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Daniel
16:07:32 [RalphS]
zakim, pick a victim
16:07:32 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
16:07:41 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
16:07:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Ralph, Antoine, Daniel, Bernard, Diego, Alistair, +1.607.785.aaaa
16:08:32 [Zakim]
+Guus_Schreiber
16:08:53 [RalphS]
Chair: Tom
16:08:55 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0005.html
16:09:09 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-10-31 http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html
16:09:13 [RalphS]
Regrets: Sean, Elisa
16:09:20 [Zakim]
-Guus_Schreiber
16:09:25 [RalphS]
agenda+ 1. Admin
16:09:27 [RalphS]
agenda+ 2. SKOS Requirements
16:09:29 [RalphS]
agenda+ 3. Other Short-Term Deliverable
16:09:32 [RalphS]
agenda+ 3.1. RDF in XHTML
16:09:33 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html
16:09:35 [RalphS]
agenda+ 3.2. Recipes for Publishing RDF Vocabularies
16:09:41 [RalphS]
agenda+ F2F January 22-23?
16:10:41 [JonP]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:10:41 [Zakim]
+JonP; got it
16:11:24 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
16:12:28 [RalphS]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:12:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "1. Admin" taken up [from RalphS]
16:13:10 [RalphS]
RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 31 Oct telecon: http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html
16:13:21 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ralph consider a tutorial on scribe conventions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:13:25 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:13:32 [RalphS]
Tom: I've started some notes
16:13:34 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html
16:14:38 [RalphS]
Tom: Ralph and I will work on filling in some of the gaps on this
16:14:44 [RalphS]
ACTION: Tom to discuss with Guus [recorded in [39]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action08]
16:14:54 [RalphS]
Tom: conflict with RIF WG telecon was noted last week
16:15:03 [RalphS]
... Guus and I exchanged a bit of mail
16:15:20 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:15:28 [RalphS]
RESOLVED: Next telecon will be 14 November, 1600 UTC
16:15:35 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elisa to keep us posted as SKOS/iso 11179 compatibility issue evolves [recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:15:38 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:15:47 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Elisa to post announcement to SWD list [recorded in [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-swd-minutes.html#action02]
16:16:06 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:16:09 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Nov/0002.html [SWD] Announcement re: Ontology Definition Metamodel (ODM) Specification [Elisa 2006-11-01]
16:16:17 [RalphS]
zakim, ipcaller is Guus
16:16:17 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:17:02 [RalphS]
zakim, take up agendum 6
16:17:02 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "F2F January 22-23?" taken up [from RalphS]
16:17:28 [RalphS]
Tom: I would not be able to attend a meeting on those days
16:17:50 [RalphS]
Ralph: Fabien would like to meet
16:18:02 [RalphS]
... Elisa abstain, will come if held
16:18:59 [RalphS]
... also Mark Birbeck and Steven Pemberton would be wiling to attend
16:19:24 [RalphS]
... Elias Torres would send regrets
16:19:58 [RalphS]
Alistair: I would like to meet, have to confirm that I could travel
16:20:18 [RalphS]
Guus: would Tom be able to join by telecon?
16:20:19 [RalphS]
Tom: yes
16:20:50 [aliman]
I could certainly join 22-23 Jan by telecon
16:21:14 [aliman]
will get back to ralph re possibility of travel
16:21:43 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
16:21:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Ralph, Antoine, Daniel, Bernard, Diego, Alistair, JonP, Guus
16:21:50 [TomB]
zakim, who is here
16:21:50 [Zakim]
TomB, you need to end that query with '?'
16:22:20 [RalphS]
Antoine: I could come to a meeting, neutral+ on meeting
16:22:25 [RalphS]
Daniel: regrets; I have a conflict
16:22:35 [RalphS]
Bernard: would be able to attend, what are the goals?
16:22:47 [RalphS]
Tom: 2 big items would be the meeting focus
16:22:51 [RalphS]
... SKOS and RDFa
16:23:10 [JonP]
I'd like to meet if I'm able to travel
16:23:11 [RalphS]
Antoine: I'm focussed on SKOS
16:23:52 [RalphS]
Tom: if we have a critical mass of people for either SKOS or RDFa then it's worthwhile holding a meeting
16:23:58 [RalphS]
Daniel: SKOS
16:24:00 [RalphS]
Bernard: SKOS
16:24:30 [RalphS]
Diego: interested in both SKOS and RDFa, more experience with SKOS, would like to attend but don't yet know if I can
16:24:38 [RalphS]
Alistair: will attend by telecon if I cannot travel
16:24:48 [RalphS]
Jon: expect to be able to attend, primary interest is SKOS
16:25:11 [RalphS]
Guus: could we have a SKOS issues list as input to a January meeting?
16:25:18 [RalphS]
Alistair: yes, that sounds reasonable
16:26:29 [RalphS]
Ralph: will attend, think it's a good idea to meet
16:27:19 [RalphS]
RESOLVED: SWD will meet face-to-face at MIT on 22-23 Jan 2007, with remote participation facilities
16:27:31 [RalphS]
Topic: Introduction
16:27:44 [RalphS]
Tom: welcome Jon Phipps
16:28:01 [RalphS]
Jon: I'm an independent consultant working for Cornell University on a metadata repository
16:28:10 [RalphS]
... we're using SKOS as a base model for our vocabulary description
16:28:21 [RalphS]
... hope to make a meta-thesaurus for vocabulary description
16:28:32 [aliman]
JonP & Diane Hillman's paper at DC2006 was very good ...
16:28:39 [aliman]
I'm just looking for the link ...
16:28:40 [RalphS]
... hope to be able to migrate vocabularies from other systems into SKOS
16:28:52 [aliman]
lots of important feedback and criticism of SKOS
16:29:12 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
16:29:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "1. Admin" taken up [from RalphS]
16:29:16 [RalphS]
zakim, close agendum 1
16:29:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1, 1. Admin, closed
16:29:17 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:29:18 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
16:29:19 [Zakim]
2. 2. SKOS Requirements [from RalphS]
16:29:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "2. SKOS Requirements" taken up [from RalphS]
16:29:47 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alistair give pointers to deployed SKOS systems. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:29:49 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:30:12 [RalphS]
Alistair: I hope to be able to post some use cases over the next few weeks and talk to some organizations over Christmas time
16:30:25 [RalphS]
ACTION: Daniel to link his use case to SKOS draft [recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:30:29 [RalphS]
-- continues
16:30:34 [aliman]
s/over/before/
16:30:40 [RalphS]
Daniel: I discussed 3 possible communities
16:31:35 [RalphS]
... I'll send email to the list summarizing the use cases I see
16:32:05 [RalphS]
Tom: need editors for Requirements document
16:32:28 [JonP]
Alistair: Link to our DC paper in citebase:
16:32:29 [RalphS]
Guus: we have the current SKOS documents and Alistair has started an issues list
16:32:29 [JonP]
http://www.citebase.org/abstract?id=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Acs%2F0605111
16:32:38 [RalphS]
s/Alistair:/Alistair,
16:32:48 [aliman]
http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core/proposals SKOS issues and proposals list
16:33:06 [RalphS]
Guus: it would be nice to settle on the issue list and be able to discuss the requirements by January f2f
16:33:42 [RalphS]
... the requirements [can] become part of the final W3C Recommendation, so perhaps it's an inducement to some to get their names on a W3C Recommendation
16:34:23 [RalphS]
... between now an the January f2f we could generate a draft Requirements document with a goal to approving this draft for publication during the January meeting
16:34:36 [RalphS]
... gather example use cases and generate requirements from these use cases
16:34:45 [RalphS]
... and generate some more general requirements too
16:34:54 [RalphS]
... this process worked well in OWL
16:35:03 [TomB]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0022.html - requirements thread
16:35:09 [RalphS]
Daniel: as we already have SKOS documents, we should consider these in the requirements, right?
16:35:18 [RalphS]
Guus: the requirements have to be within the scope of our WG charter
16:35:43 [RalphS]
... Alistair came up with ideas about what the vocabulary should be used for; metadata for indexing in retrieval
16:35:50 [RalphS]
... within that scope we can define any requirement we want
16:35:56 [RalphS]
... and reconcile conflicts
16:36:20 [RalphS]
Daniel: why is what the vocabulary is to be used for important?
16:36:38 [RalphS]
Alistair: I'm putting so much emphasis on the ultimate use of the vocabulary because SKOS makes a number of simplifications
16:37:25 [RalphS]
... the simplifications are to capture what is common between types of vocabularies; thesaurii, subject heading schemes, and classification schemes are considered different types of systems but have overlap
16:37:44 [RalphS]
... in SKOS we want to decide what information needs to be represented so the downstream applications can perform the function they need to perform
16:38:04 [RalphS]
... we want to bridge the gaps between these similar vocabulary types that are often considered to be different
16:38:11 [RalphS]
... so there is a need to generate interoperability
16:38:32 [RalphS]
... this is the only way I see to be able to clearly define 'sufficiency of representation'
16:38:48 [RalphS]
... there are a number of ways one could represent each of the vocabularies in RDF
16:39:08 [RalphS]
... without a focus on the ultimate use of the data it becomes a matter of taste on the choice of RDF representation
16:39:34 [RalphS]
... we risk growing to try to cope with everyone's favorite feature [if we don't focus on use]
16:39:44 [RalphS]
... one of SKOS' selling points is its simplicity
16:40:05 [RalphS]
... we need to continue to keep SKOS simple while satisfying the requirements that need to be satisfied
16:40:20 [RalphS]
Tom: it sounds like this explanation should be part of the first or second page of the requirements document
16:41:44 [RalphS]
Ralph: the responsibility of the editor is to collect and organize the discussions we have in our telecons and to identify unresolved issues
16:42:12 [RalphS]
Guus: I'd like someone other than Alistair to be the Requirements editor, as Alistair is also one of the developers
16:42:46 [RalphS]
Antoine: I am willing to edit the Requirements document, would like a partner
16:42:59 [RalphS]
Daniel: I'm willing to help
16:43:24 [RalphS]
Guus: I would prefer to have people who are currently working on vocabularies
16:43:53 [RalphS]
... the WG has to provide them content
16:44:03 [RalphS]
Jon: I'm interested too
16:44:39 [RalphS]
Alistair: Jon just went through a use cases analysis with a metadata registry project; I'd like him to help
16:45:09 [RalphS]
Tom: ideally we'd have a document to circulate in early January in preparation for Jan 22 meeting
16:45:40 [RalphS]
Bernard: are you also interested in contributors as well as editors?
16:45:55 [RalphS]
Alistair: absolutely!
16:46:03 [RalphS]
Ralph: everyone in the WG should be contributing
16:46:16 [RalphS]
Guus: I'll supply as much as possible from my projects
16:47:13 [RalphS]
ACTION: Jon, Daniel, Antoine figure out their individual roles as SKOS Requirements editors
16:48:07 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ralph point Jon, Daniel, Antoine at the W3C tech report editors materials
16:48:31 [aliman]
q+ to mention collecting use cases by email ...
16:49:09 [TomB]
ack aliman
16:49:09 [Zakim]
aliman, you wanted to mention collecting use cases by email ...
16:49:46 [RalphS]
ACTION: Guus cite some examples of other Requirements documents
16:50:18 [RalphS]
Guus: the roles might be to divide the domains we're looking at and solicit contributions from each domain
16:50:30 [RalphS]
... might be a lead editor who has the responsibility for updating W3C CVS
16:50:57 [RalphS]
... to start, I'd look at the different content pieces and divide those up; e.g. Daniel might take the biomedical,
16:51:08 [RalphS]
... Antoine might take the libraries
16:51:40 [RalphS]
Alistair: let's also collect use cases by email
16:51:57 [RalphS]
... a picture might emerge after a couple of weeks and then we'll have a table of contents
16:52:19 [RalphS]
Guus: would the esw-thes mailing list be another source of contributions?
16:52:24 [RalphS]
Alistair: sure
16:53:19 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alistair work with the UCR editors to draft questions to invite the esw-thes mailing list to contribute to the use cases and requirements
16:53:37 [RalphS]
Guus: for example, in OWL I created a format for people to submit their use cases
16:53:57 [RalphS]
... this helped in reducing the work to edit all the contributions into a single document
16:54:12 [RalphS]
Alistair: I'm happy to make a suggestion regarding a format and how to phrase questions
16:54:25 [RalphS]
ACTION: Alistair propose a format for presenting use cases
16:54:41 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
16:54:41 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "3. Other Short-Term Deliverable" taken up [from RalphS]
16:56:43 [aliman]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166 TimBL's blog entry on future of HTML
16:56:54 [TomB]
RalphS: HTML WG has been working on expired charter. Question on how to prioritize work on HTML version 4 versus XHTML. Current WG has been focused on XHTML.
16:59:00 [TomB]
... Issues list needs to be made more user-friendly. Requirements document by early January?
16:59:14 [TomB]
... for discussion on January 22-23.
16:59:47 [RalphS]
Topic: AOB
17:00:01 [Zakim]
-Bernard
17:00:02 [RalphS]
Guus: I'm here at ISWC and hope to collect feedback on several items, including RDFa
17:00:14 [RalphS]
... have met Harry Halpin, chair of GRDDL WG
17:00:28 [RalphS]
... he has colleagues who are very interested in the SKOS work
17:00:55 [RalphS]
... he's also interested in seeing us complete our recipes document and the vocabulary management work
17:01:12 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
17:01:18 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html RalphS
17:01:22 [Zakim]
-Alistair
17:01:23 [Zakim]
-Daniel
17:01:23 [Zakim]
-Diego
17:01:27 [Zakim]
-Antoine
17:01:36 [dlrubin]
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17:02:49 [dlrubin]
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17:03:02 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:03:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Ralph, JonP, Guus
17:05:55 [Zakim]
-Guus
17:26:02 [Zakim]
-Ralph
17:26:04 [Zakim]
-Tom_Baker
17:26:05 [Zakim]
-JonP
17:26:07 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:26:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tom_Baker, Ralph, Daniel, Bernard, Antoine, Diego, Alistair, +1.607.785.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, JonP, Guus
17:26:13 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:26:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/07-swd-minutes.html RalphS
19:19:23 [Zakim]
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